My Thoughts on Mythic+ in Season 1 of The War Within So Far... 

There’s something really weird going on with keys, because above a 5 there’s pretty much only siege, mists and necrotic wake listed, just cannot find anything else.

I've personally given up on m+, i pug because i have a super wonky schedule and i just want to play, but pugging as a healer .. the best way i can say it is, the heart palpitations are not worth the reward. It feels soooooo bad, literally shaking from the adrenaline and stress then getting gold for my trouble.. Soloing delves are much more my pace and i actually feel rewarded for my effort, i also don't have to constantly correct the mistakes of others. I agree that punishing mistakes harshly forces people to learn, but it also forces people to quit. I've learned my lesson, i deal with the affix, i kick, i stun, i dispell, i dps, i heal and still the dps is randomly dying for god knows what reason. It's miserable and as a healer, it is so difficult not to take it as your fault when people are dying, and people are dying alot to everything. It's just miserable.

I dont really mind any of the dungeons specifically. I like the variety. What i dont like are the "healer check" bosses like Stitchflesh and the last bosses in CoT and AraKara. As a tank ive had to solo them both in sixes and up because we dont have the dispels/heals cant keep up with rot damage. At the end of the day it might be a DPS issue and bosses living too long. Feels bad though to have such easy bosses and routing to then wipe for the last 15min of the key at the end.

I love the basketball analogy; the height of elation followed by the height of frustration.

I've been playing survival hunter this season taking a break from aug. Man is it rough out there to pug. I still haven't even been able to get get 7 done, pushed own key up few times. But after one wipe the groups always disband, gotta love the new affix system. Keep going up to 7 deplete down to 5 try again lol.

The thing that bothers me the most is that we're punished 3 times overall when doing a M+ which end up in depletion. For any key over 7 anyway, first, 15 second death penalties, 2nd, they key depletes, meaning now you have to run a 6 to go fail another 7, this needs to be changed so keys no longer deplete, and 3, you get less crests for failed keys. Its never been this punishing to fail a M+ key. I honestly think with the changes most people will get KSM week 2 and stop playing, or login once a week to do their key. I've already experienced a bunch of sub 7 keys where there was 1 wipe and people insta left. The only light at the end of the tunnel is that as we go up in gear 7-10's should start feeling easier, but our gear will increase but player skill level will remain the same.

If people have trouble with dawnbreaker: You can use steady flight with 820% speed. Makes it easier to not panic and follow the tank, hover over the enemy and drop off your mount at the correct spot with the tank

Also have to take into fact the 'accordian' effect, where the beginning of the season all players are more or less nearby eachother, on both sides of the accordian. As it slowly stretches out when the season gets longer the better players and worse players become slowly more far away from eachother. I do believe that at the start of an expansion the good players are present in 5-9 keys farming gear.

Been a crazy week.. as a healer, I 2 chested a 8 grim the 2nd day of the week like holy shit. Then immediately after started having a very hard time in 9s and 10s. Big euphoria spike then plateu stuck at 9s lmao. Def a wild ride but i still love it atm. Waiting on 4 pc this week and a good vault piece then itll be back to pushing! I will say however it has been the least toxic ive seen in forever, no leavers in like 30 dungeons 8 and above.

Great video mate, really enjoyed the storytelling about your key experiences. I'm playing disc priest this season, first time since cata and I'm having a load of fun. Keeping a spreadsheet of all the pugs aswell!

The tank in Dawnbreaker needs to be like 10x the normal size while on a mount. Make the tank EASY to find and follow.

I am healing and some dungeons are ROUGH, but I am absolutely loving this season.

This week, for me, has been absolutely cursed. I play WoW kinda sporadically so I don't have a guild/friends to play with so I pug absolutely everything and my god the gap in skill level is insane. Tanks are frankly a rarity and every tank that's invited there's a 50/50 chance they're either very good or have never done M+ before. People absolutely do NOT care about mechanics, they don't care to learn and so wipe after wipe they continue to not care. The difficulty spike of particular dungeons is immense; Grim Batol, Stonevault and Siege are almost unplayable in pugs above a +5 because of what I talked about earlier. There are soso many mechanics that will just one shot people on anything above a +2 and still there's just a complete lack of effort and care from what feels like 75% of m+ players right now, and from a healer POV it feels even worse. The amount of times I've been on the last boss in Ara Kara on track to 2 or even 3 chest it and then DPS just dropping left and right because they don't know how the mechanics work is depressing to say the least. Not to mention the reduction in tank defensives/healing making things even more stressful. Another issue is there are what seems to be barely any keys going right now. Almost every key above a +5 seems to be only NW/Siege/Mists. Finding a +6 Stonevaults is practically impossible. The past few days have gone like this: do 1-2 keys and time, do another and have someone be toxic or leave early or not know what they're doing, be completely mentally drained because of the depletion. This expansion has been SO good so far in every aspect EXCEPT M+, but I can't even blame the devs for most of the problems. It's genuinely just a player-to-skill gap. Until something changes, people move on or whatever my very little time to play will sadly be spent elsewhere.

I think that m0s being easier than ever before completely depends on the groups of people that you get and what specs people are playing. I played prot paladin in all of DF, from when it was pretty mid, to busted, to not as good as vdh. I got like 2500-2900 every season and then stopped. Currently trying to tank much of anything is a nightmare. I'm 609 ilvl and I take more damage with my CDs up than my 580 ilvl prot warrior. Every key difficulty has been of moderate+ difficulty for me (and my healer friend who I do keys w/ sometimes). This only compounds when you get DPS in your like 4s that don't understand the scaling has changed, or they don't care, and they come in doing my (tank) damage. Necrotic wake is very easy with 5 competent team members. But when 1 or maybe even 2 of your DPS aren't good? These keys are brutal. Your tank sucks and doesn't understand about rotating defensives? They're going to fall over dead on several pulls that would have been very easy to handle last xpac. I'm still having fun, but I am looking to gear my warrior and maybe even bear as tanking as prot paladin isn't fun. And from what I understand, brewmaster is in a similar boat.

I am a firm believer that we should not have any keystones at all. They've proven with the delve system that they can create a way for us to select the level we want, and the level we get is based on the lowest member of the party. Why not do that with m+? Let us go to any dungeon we want, and select the "key" level based on what we have unlocked. They can toy with what happens when you don't time. But honestly I don't think depletion should be a thing either. Not getting gear/crests/score is punishment already. Let us choose to do a lower level if we are not able to do the higher levels. Just my thoughts.

What counts as defensive for tank busters? Icebound Rune tap Lichborne? First boss of stone vault needs a defensive for each smash right? Do you get a tank buster “block” buff after death striking too?

Been missing the streams but it sounds like you're having a blast. I haven't gotten to play much so I'm still floating around the +4 area LOL. But even down there it's a wild difference depending on the players brought in the pug setting. Some of these keys I've completed with like 10-15 minutes left over and others we're over and skirting the hour mark for just completing it. Def noticing everyone doing the affix though, which is awesome to see. I myself, haven't had to use it much but gorefiends grasp is AMAZING for snatching all the balls in situations where the DPs might be too far away or tunneling. I also don't feel weak as BDK even with the supposed nerfs they laid on us. Overall I think you hit many nails on the head in terms of how this season feels. Strange, but kind of in a fun way. The gearing because of holding back on season start, the way they set up key levels and changed affixes. I think by S2 and 3 they'll really figure out the balancing since a lot of what they're trying right now is very new. S1 is a wild ride so far though. 💜

Hey Metro, how would I go about submitting a run for one of the pug run review type videos? Just had a Dawnbreaker run that I feel would be good for a few laughs.

Excited to see where this seasons leads BDKs. Much like our HP the ranking on every list is going up and down. Also the difficulty curve feels interesting. (Also commenting per Introduction pinned :p )

Resto shaman here, Capacitor Totem is insane with this affix, not to mention the CDR from the talent. In my group it is my job primarily to take care of orbs, and I call out if I can't.

Had great experiences with the orb affix. Tyr is the one that's blocking my groups. It has a way of sifting the players in the group.

Ive played M+ religiously for all the previous seasons and xpacs but haven't had time to jump into this one yet. Anything I should know before I dive in?

Dawnbreaker for me has always been either a breeze or a complete downward spiral. It also kills me that you cannot mount on a repair mount because of the flying buff.

Was in siege and the first boss had people actively kiting the boss around bombs. So many silly deaths. I can understand mistakes, but stuff like that makes low keys impossible 😂

ive been playing blood dk and i cant do even 6s with pugs, they just always die and dont know mechanics and someone either leaves or we dont time it. im not having any luck.

If the orbs didn’t give the DPS buff then we would see like 80% of orbs go off

I love changes up to +12 except death timer affix , that only makes pugs more toxic... but at 12 losing positive affix buff and getting extra 20% mob scaling on top is wild, rather than having nice progress steps for various skill levels of players, we gonna have this massive difficulty gap

In my Experience monk is the 2nd best class for dealing with the orbs, ring of peace can sometimes hit all of them, but usually hits about 8 or them. The actual best class is druid with incapacitating roar.

I don't necessarily like the new affix system, but I do prefer it to the old one. The extra death timer sucks and feels really bad, but at least it isn't making my actual gameplay feel miserable. The best affixes in the old system were the ones that were irrelevant to where you basically ignored them. However, even those affixes felt awful when you were not in a good coordinated group. Sanguine got nerfed how many times, but it was still really annoying with certain mobs that loved to stand in it forever or when your tank isn't moving perfectly when a mob dies. Afflicted was one of the easiest affixes in the game if you had 2 people dispelling. However, I still had to solo dispel and heal the other one constantly or else I would lose all my haste and we would wipe. It's only the first week, but the Xalatath affix feels a lot better in shaking up gameplay week to week without making the game less fun. Every class has an AoE stop that they can use when the orbs spawn to then get a pretty good reward. The mobs do get buffed if you fail, but the incentive structure makes it so that others want to be dealing with the affix instead of ignoring it completely and letting it be the healer's problem.

Monk is probably the best class to deal with the orb affix, Ring of Peace hits multiple times, so you put it down and even if they are still spawning in they just get cleared as they spawn, so no big deal if you put it down a bit too soon, it's great. Dawnbreaker is a special dungeon, I don't think I've seen one this buggy before. My favorite was healing it, and I managed to aggro the caster that runs out by the entrance in the very beginning. People just bolted for the first actual pack and completely ignored that one as we just continued on the ship. The result is that it gained infinite range and pelted me with bolts the entire run. Would probably have reset if we had a full wipe, but I didn't want to do that so just healed through it.

Many dungeons have major tuning issues as you get in the 12s. 3rd boss NW abomination still tick for 600k on everyone as long as the abom is alive... and they stack if 2 abom are up. Erunax tentacle in grim batol do not despawn; this is fine if you kill him in 1 cycle or two, but once you get to the 4th cycle the entire ground is covered in tentacles. Mist first boss still have the same issues he had during shadowland ; in higher keys the HP scale out of control, you need 4 phases to kill the boss, it take 7+ minute in a dungeon where you don't decide half the route. Stonevault first 3 boss... are insane. Then the 4th boss can be solo'd by a tank because he does 0 damage. the 2nd boss in siege desperatly need a visual on her frontal. If you can call her 270 degree , 40 yard range "clear the deck" a frontal. Blizzard already nerfed the 2 biggest outlier. Hoping they keep on tuning some more.

thank you for the video 🎉 i don’t even find stonevault keys 😂

i agree in every way with you. yesterday told a friend who i was doing a 8 dawnbreaker with and we failed by 30 sec or so that it is just the start of the season and we are allready doing a +18 a couple months ago and well its the first week of the season, a lot of ppl who never did m+ are quitting it after this week and pugging will become a bit less stressfull as a result. i tend to take it easy the first week and just get my vault full with all type of content and slowly getting my score up as aiming for the top is way too stressfull for me, i quit healing after 19y because it was not good for my mental health anymore

Yeah I did Grim for the first time today. It was very hard, we didn’t time it, but it was the most fun I have had in a dungeon so far. I think they did a great job at it. I think group comps in there will be interesting too. I was praying our mage would de-curse at some point lol spoiler, he didn’t 😂

shamans thunderstorm and stun totem are both perfect for the orbs as well

The difference of dungeons' difficulty is absolutely weird How could they create 2nd boss of Dawnbreaker and twin-boss in stonevault in the same xpac. Like one has basically 2-3 mechanics for each role and the other is hard to evenexplain?! Difficulty spikes with affixes are also brutal. Going into +10 after +9 is just another level. Suddenly mists feel like it's difficult after the very first mobs kill players in 2 jumps. Finishin 9th key on +2 is arguably easier than timing +10 at all. Except for that its the most enjoyable season for me in some time. As a healer there are many hps-checks that are hard to beat but if you do it feels amazing and even pugs are praising you for it. Also it is the first xpac for me where I managed to finish highest vault reward in first week. Not sure if its about season being easier or me becoming a better player.

Lots of good points on the affixes. I will disagree on the grim batol take tho. The last boss is a nightmare with way too many tentacles spawning and wiping my group. Not to mention all the healing absorbs on trash and curse dispel classes not using them is a nightmare for a healer. And as far as mists, this is by far the hardest dungeon for me but that is because i am a pres evoker and ranged stand too far or I have to break link and get out of range. Definitely fun first week so far

I almost exclusively run with 4/5 player premade and having a blast. The dungeons are very mechanically taxing, but rewarding if you figure it out for your comp. I ran a few dungeons with full pug for some specific items (mostly arakara) and it has been 50/50. the only 10 grim batol I ran with pugs was a total mess. I would dread doing any more than a few pugs, the keys are not made for pugging this season imo, mostly because of the interrupt change and death change.

I personally see it as at the moment we only really have 1 Affix, that being the Xal'atath weekly- because no other affixes add anything to the dungeon and it doesn't slow you down as much compared to the likes of bolstering, sanguine, bursting, necrotic etc etc etc. I also believe this has been great for the meta, genuinely I am surprised at the variety of the specs I am seeing whilst pugging, the most common spec I've seen is a shaman healer but outside of that the dps has been greatly varied from all classes and all specs (except fire mage, out of 57 keys across all 6 tanks, not seen a single one of them if it's a mage it's been either frost/arcane, mostly arcane) Do I think the Challenger's peril extended death penalty is harsher than needed yeah but we're also going in week 1 M+ with at the start like 590-600 and already getting to those 7s, now with people reaching the 610-615 range quite easily it's barely even a consideration that it is an affix because deaths are so low I'm yet to do any 12s, but 10s are a great bit of fun - I am highly engaged in pulling the correct groups and sizes, making sure my defensives are rolling properly, kiting where needed - as much as I hated the tank changes because I still whole heartedly believe we should be the masters of our own fates, people are.. seemingly for the most part actually using their kit and helping out, so I'm not all doom and gloom about it now but do I still want us to return to our former glory.. oh hell yeah. I believe the real teller of how the affix and M+ shake up is going to be told in a few weeks when you've separated those that push high keys from those that just get their weekly done and those that just dip their toe in and when that does happen, I'll be interested to see the thoughts of the higher community as the pulls will always, for the entire season, be the same size it's going to be come very cookie cutter in a way, because there will be no need to change week from week it's just going to be everything hurts from the dungeon itself which is fricking phenomenal no need to deal with external bs factors Can I ask, what has been the most challenging part about City of Threads? As from my experience the most struggling dungeon I have is Grim Batol when I'm not on my druid, currently stuck at a 8 for this on druid and 5-6 on my other tanks and Siege of Boralus is a 5-6 due to the 3rd boss, also I think the aggro range for alot of SoB could we looked at as it is so easy to go over count due to the tight streets.

This may be easy for high level players "elite players" but casual people don't find it easy at all

It's week two and you have a bunch of 10's in the bag? I thought the new mythic was supposed to be a challenge. I've done all of the delves on 7 and to me that means Delves are too easy. Is Blizz trolling us?

I jumped into a +6 stonevault eith my prot pally a little bit undergrared maybe?...that shit was making me crazy i was like why i take so much damage?

Glad to hear you're enjoying it! I'm also mostly a pug/solo player, and I think they kinda messed up by making delves too easy for the rewards. I play more casually than you and I usually enjoy the lower (2-7ish) M+ just because it's less competitive and people are nicer. Now it feels like they're obsolete from a gearing perspective. 10s also have way too many people who paid for a boost and don't know what they're doing. Hopefully that sorts itself out in a few weeks. I'm planning to tank on an alt, so I'll be watching your stuff to see what's up from a tanking perspective. Keep up the good work, Metro!

I've given up on m+ first week every person expects you to know the fights like a pro, secondly people already gate keep on your mythic score for a 2 key stone and the gear is mostly shit you don't need it's warbound for another class like wtf

Just wanted to check in: As promised, I'm also keeping track of my runs. I'm not very interested in the classes coming with me, more in the quality of the experience, so I'm focusing on keeping notes on the social interactions / what went wrong. And I removed the affix tab, since that one seems superfluous this season.

I’ve noticed very bad tank performance compared to usual. I was thinking maybe a large portion of the good tanks are just focusing on raid right now. Not sure, lfg has been rough.

I give you props cause tanking m+ in pugs this week has been nothing but misery

As a veng dh timed 52 keys this week (untimed amount we dont recall) but pugging is hit or miss but in all enjoy every key even with the fails. First 2 weeks keys are none leavers just because people want myth track in their vault. Death timer id be happy if they dropped it to 7-8 seconds some packs are brutal imo

44 m+ in 1 week? Damn

My preferred spec (aff) has a bug randomly pulling mobs 60+ yards away or out of los. Bricked so many keys before i realized what was happening. Least favorite start to a season ever. Bug after bug after bug too in a couple dungeons (siege third boss)

On nec wake +12 we did same strategy as you for Stitchflesh. Pally hearthed back and went into his full ST build and with 3 spears + lust we powered right through it. It's essentially a free key outside of that fight.

3:30ish when you talked about ring of peace it reminded me of 29 dispels i saw from a hunter with arcane torrent in a single key. Just a reminder about the blood elf racial Arcane Torrent

Im guessing there will be another couple of tuning passes on these dungeons.

also I think they gave up on affixes exactly as they started getting fun. Before DF we had two types of affixes: annoying and noone cares with rare exceptions (Explosive would be OK if there was any reason for different players to destroy em, not just healer. Seasonals were either fun or controversial at worst. Except for thundering, it sucked). But I genuinely think that Incoporeal and Afflicted were pretty fun. At least some reason to change 2-3 talent points every week. Today you need CC, next week you need dispell. Explosive, incorporeal, afflicted and nex bargain affixes could rotate and each of em should give some buffs I think. And also adding a couple of others maybe some of previous seasonals with some changes (I liked prideful as a healer but I underrstand the problem with %s and how annoying it could be for tanks and routes). One part of me is kinda unhappy about the fact the dungeons are going to stay the same forr the rerst of the season.

why is everything Necrotic Wake?

want to rip my hair off.

i am not sure if i like this new dungeon model. we are now doing 8 - 10, with enough depletes to jump between those levels. while that's nice i dont know what to expect from the season? For some of us getting portals is the goal. well that's probably achieved in the second week. The rest of us who want to push already said that it feels off, like: we have a really long way to go gear wise, but we'Re already at 10s, as in: it feels to fast. There is a general fear that we hit the 12's which will be way harder and then it is waiting for vault gear for a couple of weeks until people want to progress again. I don'T know how to describe it but it'S a weird sentiment in our group right now

Grim and SV are both harder imo. Very punishing if people do not understand mechanics.

The hps requirement in cot is ridiculuously unbalanced compared to other dungeons

My biggest problem is i didnt have time to do keys in the start of the week so now im basically stuck in the 'trenches' as i like to call the lower M+. There is some incredibly bad players that will die to every mechanic, won't interrupt, probably don't even have defensive CD's on their bars. It's been rough so far. Managed to finish a +4 NW and i did almost twice the dps as number 2, i did 1.3m overall the others did 700k, but we still managed to 2 chest it. Just frustrating when you know you skilled enough to do +7 or higher and play with better players but you have no way of getting into those groups when you not done M+ from the start.

3rd boss on necrotic wake can smd its such a dps check and as a prot warrior i melt to that bleed and whatever overlaps with what the boss hits me with

it's been fun for me, def have enjoyed it so far.

My main issue is how long it takes to actually get into a group. Even with 595 ilvl it takes me ages to get into groups for M0 and 2+ to actually get started. I'm not sure if it's because so many DSP classes are pretty good right now so the sheer number of people applying makes it very easy to skim off the top and pick out the very top of ilvl applicants or if people have a distorted view of the ilvl you need in these lower keys. Every key I've managed to get into has been a fine, in both doing DPS and not falling over from a single hit. Letting us apply to more than 5 groups at a time could help with this issue.

i gotta fix my dungeon spread i have 10’s in city of threads and NW but not mists or ara kara

Now Golf will drive you MAD

I wasted DAYS spamming 8+ delves only to get the same trinkets and weapons over and over again. I probably vendored about a dozen items, I saw maybe 3 or 4 actual upgrades. I feel like I'm the only one I know experiencing this issue....

When you were going over stats it would’ve been cool to get a visual in the video of what you were looking at

Thank you for the statistics! Really funny to hear the sheer difference between stuff like Mists and Stonevault being timed. I've also experienced something similar. And yes, monk ring of peace is hard carrying the CC affix. Playing with a dedicated WW monk is a blessing. This season brings SO many fundamental changes. The community will need more time to adapt than usual. - Affixes stay mostly the same between weeks (especially in higher keys, +12 is straight up the same every week) - Deaths are more punishing than ever before with the +7 affix - The difficulty jump between key levels is higher than ever before (see the spike from +9 --> +10 due to added fort/tyrann buff or from +11 --> +12 due to added 20% dmg/hp respectively). - CC changes to make cc interrupts worse, despite it being just as important to stop deadly casts (There have been horror stories of people kicking a cast only to miss it due to an AoE CC overlap, causing a wipe once the recast happens) - Mythic track vault has more value than ever before, making it more valuable to stay in +10 depleted keys just for vault ------- Personally this season has been AMAZING so far, compared to week 1/2 of previous seasons. There are clear balancing issues within each dungeons, but at least we're still in the phase of active hotfixing from blizzard (See the sep 20 changes to Necrotic Wake third boss / City of Threads last boss). But my perspective is warped as a relatively experienced tank with 3 dedicated friends. Timing a +10 is currently exhilirating and actually possible even with some deaths (see Ara-kara, Mists, Dawnbreaker). I imagine that an average player that is pugging may experience a *lot* of whiplash from attempting to push keys. Especially in sub-optimal comps (think Grim Batol with 1 or 0 curse dispells // Necrotic wake with 2 or less melee kicks)

the gearing thing is not an issue its been great imo. i didnt do one delve so i had none of that gear i couldnt do heroic with my guild and its hard to get an invite. i think gearing is great atm because i was able to keep up somewhat on ilvl with people exploting and pushing it to the max. The fights are hard if u don't know whats happening which is why the lower u go they almost get harder in a weird way. +2's on my monk are feeling like +8's on my shaman simply because of the players. I'm finding the 3rd boss in grim batol as a wall boss, people don't switch to adds people are still getting launched into the abyss in a +7 mind u seeing alot of tanks not knowing to run from mace.

me and the boys never grind gear early so we never overgear the m0s, at 560-570 they were about appropriate tbh. Do it wrong and you die, do it right the boss dies.

Stitchflesh still requires a lot of healing, have had healers struggle post nerf. The 2nd golem comes out fast after you use the third hook from the first one. Hard to not have 2 golems out and overwhelm the healer. I actually did use control undead on the 2nd boss just like shadowlands because people can't interupt the frost volleys even when I grip them and get 1 volley myself.

Another thing i think is bullshit is the double recast that mobs do when you use a crowd control like knockup for shaman, i.e you see a mob casting a spell you have to interrupt (sometimes 2 mobs at the same time sometimes MORE!!!) you knock them up and immediately after they begin casting the same spell that you just interrupted.......if you're trying to run higher keys you might wanna get used to running with a static or at least using VC so you can rotate your kicks with a proper group comp. Im only 1800+ rating on resto shammy and running anything above a 6 or 7 right now just annoys me....

I do think prot warrior is better than monk for affix. You can do aoe stun, 3 target stun, aoe fear and aoe silence for it. I have been eating the affix alone

i quit the game. The game is not fun for me, it's just tedious. The game feels like a pain in the ass for some reason for me. I got my m+ score to 1000 or so and was like f this, these dungeons are not fun and are just annoying and tedious. It was time to say good bye.

I like this seasons dungeons but Grim Batol last boss is rough and stone vault is rough with pugs

Xalatath affix is good, my issue is if i try aoe blind them, it only works on 1 target if i target them, but i can aoe blind all if there is a mob nearby. (Also some funnel for rogues while they live). Its hard to measure difficulty of keys cause its very early, and DF S1 started rocky as well. Unnerfed RLP was unbeatable

i feel the dungeon tuning is okay. they need to adjust a few bosses i think but overall it's just a learning curve. it feels like people were spoiled by how relatively easy the season 3 and 4 dungeons were in DF compared to this season, and are carrying that energy still. the nerfs to VDH were a big thing as well, i think the overall dps population got used to just letting the tank handle so many of the ints and stops (in addition to how they changed mob casting). also, tanks in general are just squishier. in addition, people are still learning these dungeons and are standing in mechanics, pulling extra mobs with their long range aoes, and not using personals when they should. i have been having fun but i really wish people would stop leaving at the first sign of the key being possibly bricked. ppl need to stick around and learn the dungeon, even if it's not timed.

Well let me tell you, my experience has been the exact opposite. As an average to above average player/tank, anything i run over +4 has been a deplete with random pugs and really doesn't matter which key and it usually comes down to at least one boss per dungeon...Mist/second boss, NW/ 3rd boss, SV/2nd Boss, ect ect. Much like you 99% of my keys are pug based since i only have about 3-4 days at most to play and one of those nights is dedicated to raid. I have friends in dedicated groups and been doing well, most of which are KSM while i sit now in the 500s or so because i just cant time anything over a 4, nor upgrade my gear because i need the shards from +4...Ive had to solo last bosses in prolly 50% of my completes (anecdotal). AND, i would say most issues arise from mechanics because things are now more lethal when compared to M0, which i agree with you M0 should have been MUCH harder and more representative of what we would be seeing in M+ now for the average everyday joe and new player base. DK doesn't feel as fun because even now when you do things the "correct way" it feels like im on the edge of death most times and initial snap agro can be a problem with warriors right now on pull. Now i say this as near 50 year old player so maybe the youngins are having a better overall time but feels like im just barely holding on when compared to expacs/seasons since BFA.

I like the kiss curse affixes a lot more than sanguine. Yes, they're more challenging, but that's not a bad thing. The death timer affix is bad design, though. I just find some of the dungeons/bosses to be too much. The SL dungeons may be a bit too easy, grim batol right on the money, several others need to be brought down to grim's level.

well here comes the early 1-3 day of delve where we rushed like 20-30 idk alot.. in 5-6 min down xD and we all got 603 or.. 610 ilvl gear like free so ye :) m0 are for start gearing anyway

I agree dwanbreaker is an easy dungeon, with one condition. the amount of bugs in there that will cause random deaths is absurd and it never should have gone live with all of them. pallies being able to BOP off the "debuff" allowing you to fly during the first boss. (this may have been fixed since i watched it happen) unable to mage blink, or warlock circle (NOT GATE) the beams on first boss without getting hit. first boss exploding and deleteing people clearly not inside the bubble. ground effects not showing up during the first and last boss while on the boat (could be lumped in with general ground effects not showing up anywhere but so far ive only encountered this while on the boat) falling through / off the flying boats before the first boss. after last boss, will wipe the group if the "debuff" (the light) falls of while on the little RP boat to the chest most of these are controllable by players and just add extreme frustration to the dungeon in general and will make it commonplace when you get to the "death affix" level of keys people will just drop as soon as more than one person has a problem. very pessimistic view, but i just ran one and tank couldnt land on the side boats at all followed by group disband

Siege of Boralus and Grim Batol need some adjustments. Overall the dungeons with the lowest success rates according to raiderIO. Made a post about it on competitive WoW (same account name as here).

Had 75 deaths in my last CoT group :,)

i've ran about 20 keys so far. i've depleted 5 keys and only had 2 disbands, one due to gear check and one due to lack of mechanical knowledge. I've only been toxiced out of m0s, lower and raid pugs. I'm loving m+ now. I love that the lower keys are harder and that we don't have to split rating between weeks. Dungeon Mechanics seem more important because of the nerf to casting and CC interacting in keys and how quickly things scale up. I feel extremely motivated.

My experience in m+ is the dawn breaker I'm dancing having the time of my life. Then I get 7 necrotic wake and I want to kill my self. then need to balance the difficulty of some of this dungeons.

It’s odd. I’ve had groups on any dungeon where it’s been a complete clown fiesta and then you get the odd one or two in a row and it just feels like normal M+. For me DF season 4 felt much rougher at the start. And yeah, stonevault just seems un upgradable and they will need to nerf it. And for me, mists is easy, necrotic is easy (except if your group can’t do stichflesh), city of threads is kinda easy except maybe last boss, a kara is pretty hard, grim batol is hard but quite fun, dawnbreaker is medium and a bit annoying. Siege is pretty easy, and stonevault OP. The variance in difficulty is wild.

Spent most of opening day getting declined so gave up.

Yeah my group did a +9 and we used 3 javelins on Surgeon Stitchflesh and then we have an Arcane mage doing a casual 4mill dps on it.. while my own Havoc DH did around 2mill with an Aug ofc.... Nerf magicks plox!

its funny that you mention city of threads and stone vault, because ive only manage to time one 7 city and stone vault with the cube boss is very frustrating.

Grim Batol’s linear layout, small trash packs and straight forward tank mechanics translated into a perfect M+ dungeon. The last boss is the only real challenge but it’s quite fun and if you wipe, it’s very obvious what you did wrong. This dungeon really helped me improve as a tank. Sadly I can’t say the same for some other dungeons that are a bit convoluted with poor layouts. I will also say that Delves have been a huge factor for early gearing where in the past you didn’t have alternative solo content for gear to get you into M+

This season is boring :D I don't know why but i feel like quiting after doing 10 on everything..I have a lot more fun playing and pushing for PVP rating right now

Your thesis that this season is just super easy? Strongly disagree. Actually getting to 10s feels like an impossible goal for me right now at 610, and I got KSM all seasons in DF and KSH once, so not a total noob. These dungeons feel hard, maybe because people don't know them, but these are not easy by any means. This is just a you thing.

regarding the new affix - its obvious what blizzard plan is - they bring m+ close to raiding . +4 is basicly jump from normal to hc raiding - thus 10 % + 25 % differenceo n bosses makes liek 35 % gate - very close to the jump from normal to hc raiding. its horrible for bad players but for good players its amazing because it keeps "baddies " in the bracket below 4/5 while goo players push 8-10 :)

I really don't like any of the dungeons and the new affixes this season so probably for the first time in a while just not going to bother with them much, might get a couple of slots a week in the vault but not eevn going to go for mythic track.