N252DL C-310R Poolville TX 14 Jan 2024 

But I'm sure you was aware before hand that there's icing conditions.

@@RubenKelevra was an airmet for icing so anyone who preflighted knew what they were getting into. Had the 22T on max when descending through about 6 thousand

Wonder what his rush to go up in those conditions was and risk his kids too.

@@badkneesone probably get-there-itis or invincibility due to his profession and social status?

@@jaredh723sounds like you took a risk and relied heavily on anti ice measures that are not fool proof. Smart.

The kids were 6 and 8. Makes me sick thinking about it.

....and no banjo music. Takes "that other guy" a half hour to get to the point.

Buddy holly territory almost ✌🏻

Ice hitting the nose is normal.

I can not even imagine how devasting that must have been , loss of a brother and 2 young children 😢😢

@@BassBrigade2089 probably means an automated SOS, like from Apple Watch

​@@vasilivhthis. I think they use the accelerometer in the watch/ phone to judge if there has been a car crash, gives you an alert on your device, then if you don't acknowledge it automatically calls/ notifies your emergency contact and/or 911, depending on how you have it set up. I recall seeing a commercial touting this feature. Basically turns your device into an epirb.

@@BassBrigade2089 it sounded like it was the automated crash detection from the phone. The apple SOS service.

@@BassBrigade2089 because having an apple watch / iphone is the only thing that makes sense, he wasn't going to be calling or messaging anyone "SOS" while crashing, while his watch/phone would have done exactly that

Exactly. I can live to evaluate whether it's worth being pissed off about a delay.

So sad, but so true.

Pilots dying in bad weather are often buried in sunshine

He was a great guy and two awesome kids. Sad

Did you get ice on your flight? Icing doesn’t appear to be the problem here to me.

@@navion1946I believe Gtown was saying he saw them when they were first flying down south before the returning trip that ended in the crash. The day the crash took place i was ground at my location (50nm east in the bravo) due to icing conditions. That day was a poor day for any one to be up. Super cold and low ceilings covering much of Texas and other states.

Yes, you are correct….I saw him and said hello when they were getting fuel at Mineral Wells on Friday, 1/12.

You can get with lesser planes.

The point of known ice planes is to help you if you end up in it. You should never knowingly fly a piston plane into known ice

@@coasternut3091 I fly a single engine turbine and when it comes to ice I don’t play around. If any icing is forcasted it has to be light or I’m planning around it. Also have to have some reliable escape routes built in for me to fly into forcasted light ice areas. (Can I get on top? Underneath? Around? Below freezing level but maintaining terrain clearance? All questions we have to have an answer for before takeoff. (freezing rain is always a no go especially if close to freezing at surface)

This was the worst weather we've had in Texas since the Feb 2021 major winter storm. Not sure if he expected to get behind it or beat it to his N. Texas destination. Further downwind in Houston, we were expecting frozen precipitation and snow showers the next day. I didn’t even drive the car for those two very, very cold nights and days for Texas. It's all too frequent that we lose people flying out of hunting destinations due to some of the nasty weather conditions we get, even in mild winter temps.

@@jaw065 that's just good piloting

love me some crj flights

Same, above clouds at 210 knots descending we had a tat of 12c. Immediately entering imc tat dropped to 8c.

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." -- Captain Alfred Gilmer 'Lamps' Lamplugh

That's why you don't fly an airplane in icing conditions if it haven't got deicing capabilities. I think that this was intentionally.

But you know before you take off that you don't have de-icing capabilities. You also know the freezing level. Do you go fly an instrument approach without the instruments?

@@chrisnoname2725 yeah I think this one was intentional.

"the slightest amount of ice can bring down an aircraft quickly" - not really. Not even close. Why do people say rubbish like this when they have no idea what they're talking about?

Talk about lucky

Wow, appreciate the comment on your history witnessing this sort of thing and appreciate your boss taking the time to educate you on it as well. Just such a terrible tragedy that appears could have been avoided with better judgement by the pilot.

I think dan is a close tie also ✌🏻

Dan is a misogynist and a conspiracy theorist who defames people for youtube views ($1m defamation judgement against him last fall). @@AnonYmous-v1f6b

@@AnonYmous-v1f6b not even close...my respect for Juan motivates me to leave it at that

​@@AnonYmous-v1f6bwho is Dan?

Totally agree.

That was a time to reduce power, push out the landing lights and come down at 1,500 fpm and get through it very quickly, or better yet, find a better place to go. I can't imagine what was so important with your kids on board that waiting a day couldn't work.

@@kristinwinter5006get there-itis. A common human factor that affects all pilots but more so the pilots with less experience.

I live south of Tyler. Somebody flew over the house northbound just above the treetops. That was only the second time it’s happened in 20 years. Maybe they were on the deck because of the weather.

@@PeopleAlreadyDidThis When was this? It couldn’t have been me because I was simply on the LOC and GS landing on 04.

12* is below freezing. Can you correct your data?

If you've encountered moderate icing over mountains THREE times, you need to re-think your ADM.

Yep. The only thing I fear more than ice is a fire aboard the aircraft.

What happens when you descend to the minimum altitude and the ice DOESN'T melt? You've been very lucky so far. Not trying to judge you, but this is how accidents like this happen. People get desensitized to the seriousness of the danger when they've previously been lucky and able to somehow get out of the situation. It's basic human nature and none of us are immune to it.

It sounds like descending to minimum altitude is a “created memory item” that “could” work - or a tip that gets passed from pilot to pilot - and I bet many pilots have this stored away. But I second the question: what happens when you descend to minimums and the ice doesn’t melt? I also am curious about the many comments suggesting that this profile doesn’t seem to be that of an icing issue.

I think it should probably go without saying that you shouldn't exactly be planning your trip based on "...and, when I start icing up, I'll just descend to min..." logic of course. Rather, IF you do encounter icing, then this is something that MAY help out. And, if it doesn't work, then I guess you aren't leaving anymore comments on Juan's videos. He may make one about you though, so there's that at least. See @dutchflats comment in here for probably the best advice - not that I know what I'm talking about anyway...

One problem with boots, if icing is bad enough ice can start to bridge the inflated boots and make them useless.

@@wb6anp Right....I've been told there is some technique required with them as too early use can stretch the ice out and the rest then bridges on it where the boots can't break it off. Got to wait until there's enough that's thick enough to shatter when the boots inflate but not wait so long that they can't break it.

Good point, nightmarish scenario and again why situational awareness is so important!

If the altitude recovery, however brief, occurred, something else is involved in this. What a tragedy for the family and challenge for the NTSB. RIP x 3.

I agree. Normally the data would show a level off, followed by a steady decrease in groundspeed. Data here seems to show a constant groundspeed with no attempt to arrest the descent. It will be interesting to see what the investigation reveals.

@@toddsmith8608 I agree with that. I hate to speculate, but I've got a few ideas about what might have happened. I will say that I think ice may have been a Contributing Factor, but it sure doesn't look like a Primary factor, at least from this tidbit of data. I reserve the right to change my opinion as more data comes out, although I don't think I will have to.

Yea, looks like it flew into the ground more so than fell into the ground for sure

Poisoning!

😂

I’ve lived a lot of my life in a place where we get real winter, but I’ve never seen freezing rain here. However, I’ve spent the last two winters in Texas and I now have a clear understanding of what freezing rain is. I could not possibly imagine getting in a plane in those conditions, and like you I wouldn’t get out on the road either! Totally irresponsible to think you’re safe to fly or drive in those conditions.

And the hot plate runs $10K for a refurbished one.

Whoa! That's heavy. I wasn't that close to the crash site as you were. But the helicopter that crashed with Kobe Bryant aboard passed overhead about 150 yds. at 400 ft. altitude @ 150 mph. I remember a helicopter about 9:15 AM that morning that rattled my windows. I thought it was a MediVac because of the sound and speed. The LASD isn't up that early. I didn't know until I pulled up the flight later.

After Richard McSpadden died I've 100% given up on pursuing my ppl. If he can't make it, I have zero chance. I'll stick to flight sim with a VR headset

Don’t give up so easy. Also, better to be informed, Richard was not the reason his plane crashed.

don’t forget back to basics and actually flying being just as important when autopilot is not working properly…

me too. Going to set up a sim and fly it while I save money for cockpit hours. I'm not as bold as I used to be, and am in great health.

@@clarencethomasisthegoat Might as well stop driving too, if you had an engine failure because that's what happened to McSpadd. Blame the engine, not the person in such cases...and maybe you should focus on twin engines airframes?

We don't need people to die to know not to do things. The rest of us don't do this. It's not like some new thing that nobody knew about nor something that I've seen pilots be complacent with. At least not where i live.

Lots of the accidents on here won't just happen to anyone. Lots are not freak accidents. Before you take off you know if your aircraft is equipped for icing conditions. You know not to fly below minimums on approach and fly into power lines well off to the side of the runway, to not descend into a valley at high density altitude. Not to fly into cloud without a working AH. People make mistakes. These aren't mistakes. These are arrogance

wow, You would think that the weather forecast would have said something, it did. this guy was an idiot...

And Sunday, 14 Jan.

What frequency was he on?

@@brandongentry66 My scanner picks up various ARTCC sites (sectors) and a couple of RCAG sites. The scanner, a Uniden SDS 200, isn't near me so I rarely see what site it's picking up. Assuming the flight was direct my guess is it was an RCAG, San Antonio ARTCC, or Austin. It was not a good day for a GA aircraft to be in the air. We have too many resources at our fingertips to not know icing conditions existed.

@@MichaelLloyd yessir I had the same thoughts. He was a friend of mine. Experienced pilot. Doesn’t make sense.

@@brandongentry66 First let me say I'm very, very sorry for the loss of your friend and his children. I had a big reply typed up and accidentally lost it. I spent 30m looking at the ADSB track on ADSB Exchange. I have the paid version because I have a receiver and share data with them. IMHO it's a lot better than the free one. Anyway. The short version of what I typed. The ASN link in Juan's description is decent. ADSB Exchange doesn't show the spikes in airspeed that FlightAware shows. He had a fairly normal flight. I don't think it was icing either but I don't know. Somewhere around Hamilton he started a 600(ish+) fpm descent from 6,800' to 6,700, completing that around Hamilton where he started a climb back to 6,800. He completed that a little before (west of) Grandbury. Then at 18:04:33, 228 kts, 6,825', he started a descent and at 18:05:02 he was at 226kts and 6,650'. Nothing alarming there. From there he started a normal descent and slowing the aircraft for approach. The final ping was descending, 1,575', 151kts. That's low. There are a lot of towers and power lines between him and the airport but they are all 300-400' agl. 4,200' is the OROCA for that sector. 3,700' is the OROCA for the Mineral Wells sector (that's what I'm calling it because it's to the east of Mineral Wells.) There are two towers along the route of flight. 1,482' (320' agl) and 1,362' (261' AGL). His last ping was at 1,575'. I would think someone would notice if a tower or power line was struck but extrapolating the terrain is around 1,100' in that area. I wonder if he had a local altimeter setting?

I was in Texas from Phoenix to Mass just before Christmas 1996ish and had to go through de-icing 3 times because the line to take off was long enough to build up notable amounts of ice. I had to be cool so my wife didn't get scared, but I'd have been totally okay with sleeping in the airport if required. Aside from a rough ride and lots of lightning to look at we made it safely to our destination. ;)

Fr people are so self-centered, they can't compute that there are more important things happening than their precious schedule.

I don’t think it’s too cold for domestic and international flights. De-icing is made for flight in icing conditions, except for severe icing. It really isn’t made to escape an icing situation. I’m perfectly fine flying a jet in icing conditions.

On it....

Looking at the images of a fully intact BE-55 laying flat on the ground, yet another stall/spin accident. Little to no forward motion (no ground scars) of the aircraft upon impact. We landed in DFW from MEM and had a large temp inversion in the bases of the clouds ~3K' MSL (~2400'AGL) Light rime, but nothing like ice we took on in MEM the night before. Got out and took pics, never had that much ice on a B737-NG before.

​@@blancoliriogrim work, but important. Thank you for all you do.

@@krisskliegleka1gju900 Just read a short article on it. An eyewitness said the airplane came down in a "corkscrew descent."

​@blancolirio there was another crash in Mooresville North Carolina a few days back if you could give us any insight on it that would be great. I think the pilot lived also, so that's a good rhing at least.

I think you have a typo ? Australia ? Australia is in summer. Do you mean a town named Australia in the U.S. ?

It's summer here in Australia mate. There's been some big rains but nothing close to snow. I don't think the weather here is related to the weather in the US

​@@65gtotrips think he means he heard about it halfway across the world, so a local should have known

@@65gtotrips Can confirm that Australia's heard about the bad weather and various blizzards going on in America. It was extremely amusing when one of them asked me what to do in a blizzard when 95% of this country doesn't even have snow.

@@65gtotrips The freezing icy conditions were being reported in Australia, yeah it was big news

Having often flown to Bíldudalur, and on the postal flight hopping up to Ísafjarðar many thanks!

I lost my brother ,he was flying his glassir 111, over Cheyanne Wyoming ,no explanation for the crash I think you may have something there with prop icing as the farmer he flew over said the engine was going flat out( he was experienced with planes) gives me something to ponder about

Or should fly.

Why would you want to shock cool an engine, period?

@@dondonzi2627 Pilots don’t want to, but it sometimes occurs and the valve guides shrink onto valve stems causes a “stuck valve” with engine damage, and or engine shutdown The theory is that rapid descents cause this from low engine RPM with cold air blasting the engine, but it’s likely a wives tale. I’ve found that corrosion in valve guides grabbing onto valve stems is the likely culprit and has nothing to do with rates of descent,

I had carby icing in cruise at 5500ft. Mid summer, high humidity. Continental o300. Glided to the airport.

Maintaining C402C's in NW Alaska, we replaced cylinders on the TSIO-520's by the cartload. Shock cooling is a real thing in the 402's as that plane is one of those that doesn't like to slow down either. Company policy limited ops at -40F if the plane could pre-warm in a hanger, otherwise -30F so not your average situation for risking rapid cooling. Typically we would see cylinder head cracking at the intake port around the fuel injector, and sometimes at the exhaust port. I think the cooling this is related to the atomizing fuel played a role in the cracking. The pilots I worked with were pretty serious about engine care on descent and did the best they could. There was no speed restriction for extending the landing lights, so that was usually done first, followed by getting the (split) flaps out early. Also, adjust the mixture towards rich very gradually.

Yep - When you pull the red levers back after parking, the engine gets shock cooled many magnitudes greater than could ever happen in flight with the engines running. Now, on a cold winter day after flying I try to get the cowl plugs in ASAP to contain some heat, but I'm generally not overly concerned with shock cooling. There is another good reason other than shock cooling to keep the power on in descent. That is to keep the engine driving the propellor rather than the propellor turning the engine. This keeps the rings seated better and minimizes blowby.

The heater is a Janitrol in the twin Cessnas. Southwind in the old Piper Apache (Brrr).

@@cfi1598 I thought it was the reverse of that, Southwind in the Cessna and Janitrol in the Piper Aztec? The Aztec heater would frequently quit on me including one time when I flew the US Attorney General from IAD to ROC, so embarrassing?!

@@dutchflatsthe 1975 Cessna 340A I flew had the Janitrol heater and it started smoking on one of my trips. I worked on an 1974 Aztec and it had the Janitrol heater. The Southwind was used in a number of aircraft also. Both have had ADs issued against the older units. Even the Cessna 172 had the option to install a gas heater. I believe that it was for the Southwind.

@@cfi1598 So I looked it up and the OEM heater for the serial number of the aircraft I flew (310R) was a Southwind # 8259HR2 45,000BTU gas heater. Don't know but a number of aircraft could've had replacement parts installed?

Probably was at firewall with the throttles and was eking out the best ROD he could do with a load of ice. IFR, so at some point we will hear the transmissions.

Same with tornado disasters, too....

The ADSB would have reported a steady altitude too, with a blocked static port. 310s are very poor ice haulers, which I probably wouldn't know if I lived in Dallas. Some of the scariest moments of my life have been hearing ice fly off the hot props on an otherwise unprotected 310 - and I knew there was warm enough air down below. I only once climbed into ice in the 310, and I was there for less than a minute! I went right back down and headed home (the destination was on the other side of the Front Range of the Rockies - I needed to get to 16,000 feet to get there, but in the clouds at about 10,000 feet the leading edges turned white and the props started throwing ice. I started a descending 180 and started my next conversation with Denver Center with "Mayday, Twin Cessna xxxx Lima is picking up ice, not equipped for icing, turning eastbound and descending out of 10,000. He asked if I was unable to maintain altitude, I replied "Not yet unable, but unwilling" He asked my intentions and I told him I was in visual conditions and intended to return to my origin. He asked if I wanted to cancel IFR, I said yes. He asked me to resume my own navigation and squawk VFR, and please give them a call on the landline when I got down (to the uncontrolled airport I was based at). I did, and the same controller answered the phone, thanked me for how I handled it and said he wished all the emergencies went that well. In my experience, excellent service and accommodation of anything you ask for is just a word away, and there is no downside to declaring. The ice wasn't in the forecast, and even my non-pilot passenger, who missed the meeting I was taking him to, thanked me for making the decision that today was not the day. He said he was only worried from the moment I said "Mayday" until I finished telling the controller what my plan was - said he missed a couple of breathes, but then it was clear it would be OK. That said, I'm not sure there was a safe way down if he had confessed, under those weather conditions - back up into the warmer air above, but then what? Fly to somewhere without clouds or precip? Where's that?

@@richsarchet9762 excellent.

The 310 still sucked as a known ice aircraft. The wing was thin, and the boots didn't work very well. The Aerostar was even worse.

I did some Freight Dog work in the upper Midwest in a Cessna 310, Grand Caravan 208B, MU2, and finally a PC12. It taught me a ton. The PC12 was by far the best all around airplane and by far the best in the ice!

@@blite2847 That is the truth. The tip (main) tanks could get some very impressive ice formations.

Anti-icing is proactive whereas de-icing is reactive. Turbojets are equipped with anti-icing where bleed air is routed to the leading edges and engine nacelles to prevent ice from forming in the first place. Turboprop aircraft are equipped with de-icing which is an attempt to rid the aircraft of ice. This method is not perfect by any means, and the boots must NOT be inflated prematurely, which can cause the ice to simply stretch and stay, instead of breaking off. That ice will stay on the airframe until you either get to an altitude or area out of the icing conditions. Eventually it will either melt or sublimate.

A surgeon determined to get where he needs to be.

Back when I flew for a living, we had a saying; "Hindsight is a lot more like 20-10. Make your foresight 20-10, and you'll live longer." The longer I flew, the more I realized the truth to it. In my final years, at the end of the weather briefing, I'd ask myself what about this flight would the accident investigation board members shake their heads about and ask "What was he thinking?" Based upon the flight data, I'm not at all convinced that this was an icing-induced crash. Hopefully, the board will be able to find the cause.

This reminds me of my last day. I flew into a village in Alaska and couldn't find our agent. So found some transportation and brought the mail to the PO myself. This all took so long the company initiated S&R on me. Later the station manager told me he was glad they didn't loose me on my last day after all, I was glad too.

I agree... the data doesn't really look like an icing encounter.

​@BKD70 I believe that icing was a concern for the pilot. possibly a concern that became a distraction. the possibility of icing may have changed the pilot's familiar approach, causing loss of situational awareness. icing is a real threat in so many ways.

@@johnaikema1055 That may be possible, but with 11winters of commuter airline flying in C208's in my logbook, this ADS-B accident data doesn't really look like an icing encounter, at least not a typical one. There is a LOT more to this incident, and I don't believe that this ADS-B data tells very much of the story.

@@BKD70 I don't disagree. that said I still think the possibility of icing could have played a key role in this very unfortunate situation. caravans with ice are indeed a handful. the boots you use do work...but weight on the tail is the end game. keep flying safe.