Hey Juan, I'm a little confused. You said that the plane won't remain airborne with the flaps down, even with full power? What's the procedure for a go-around?
Not on initial takeoff way too much drag. You have extra energy in a Go Around You don't lower FULL FLAPS until LANDING ASSURED! Usually never even use full flaps unless it's a really short landing, to avoid situations like this. Good question!
If I understand Mr Blanco correctly it is like this: the back end of the wing looks like this -< sort of. Imagine the drag a wing split like that would induce. More like an airbrake than a flap. Isn't the flaps on the early spitfires like that also?
Juan. I appreciate your time explaining this accident in detail. I was there at chino airport yesterday. I saw the aircraft taxi, and takeoff in less then 3 minutes. And subsequently saw him stall out at around 300ft. During that entire time he did have the flaps fully extended. An unfortunate tragedy, that could’ve been so easily avoided.
Thank you Juan for this video. For those who are offended by not seeing more photos or videos of the crash, it is good to think above all about respect for the victims, their families and loved ones. My wife and I were present and unfortunately documented the last moments of the crew and their plane. We have chosen to reserve these elements for the families and the competent authorities to carry out the investigation. Thank you for your understanding, and thank you for continuing to support our much-needed aviation community, and in particular the Yanks Air Museum in Chino, California. Please take care of yourself and your loved ones.
I was at Chino just last week, almost went to Yanks. Paid a couple visits to Planes of Fame next door. These living history museums really deserve our support.
Juan I flew that airplane for yanks about 4 years ago. Frank Wright isn’t the owner of the airplane, it’s his father in law Charles Nichols who owns the museum. Frank was a super nice guy and so sorry to hear this.
Juan, thanks so much for covering this accident, I was curious about what may have happened because I was there and left abruptly after the crash because it was so traumatic for all of us there for the Father's Day event at Yanks museum.
i know i usually say that machines can be replaced and people cannot, in this sad case, we lost 3 unreplaceable souls, the 2 people, and this stunning old bird
Thank you Juan, you have been a wealth of factual information. Not a pilot but have been obsessed with aviation since my Navy Chief father got me on all the arriving aircraft carriers into Subic Bay P.I. in the late 60's. Even walked the deck of the USS Forestal after the disaster. To see such a ship listing while limping into port! Can't get enough of your channel!
Getting parts for an 80 yro plane means scrounging, making a part from scratch, and , too often, improvising a makeshift repair. And, who certifies these antiques? Is there a training program for techs to rebuild piston engines? Is a young tech going through 80 yro manuals instead of training for current jets?
Damn. But at least they kept it doing what it was made to do - fly, - so many people have had the chance to see her, and record her in her element, the sky, and not just sitting in a museum. Condolences to all involved and all those who kept her active.
With a 2-foot chord, the electrically operated split flaps are large and effective, but they move slowly, requiring 22 seconds to go all the way down. As the flaps extend, the ailerons droop about 10 degrees, providing the effect of full-span flaps. Both the landing gear and the flaps can be raised or lowered using a hand crank in case of an electrical malfunction.
Oh, MAN! My Compadre and I did a walk-around of this airplane last week while it was in the hangar that night. We didn't touch anything, as we deemed it too beautiful for us to get our gruby, cargo-hauling hands on... This is certainly very sad news: Two fine gentlemen and one impressive airplane lost.
Wow those flaps look more like Dive brakes and I can see where having those out would slow you way down and to have one side not working would be disastrous. Thanks so much Juan for giving us the update on this sad event.
Thank you Jaun for your personal experiance on this aircraft. You truely offer some fine information on what may have caused this sad crash and loss of these gentleman. Heartfelt condolences to family and all who knew them.
In the late 90’s I was assigned to Lake Hills Station and these guys from Chino and Riverside would meet up over Lake Mathews in these vintage aircraft and make bombing runs dropping bowling balls into the lake. Many hours on the weekends watching these guys. I wonder how many balls are in that lake 😆
I flew a Cessna 195 for many years and it also had electrical powered drag flaps, used only for landing. The only difference is with a high wing airplane I could see that the flaps were down, in the accident aircraft, they could not see that the flaps were down. By using the drag flaps it moves the center of lift toward the back of the wing, which moves the nose down for a better view of the landing area. In a tail wheel airplane this helps.
A witness interviewed on a local TV station stated that the aircraft dipped to the left, left wing down, and the left wing struck the ground first. Two killed, one the owner of the Yanks Air Museum.
Definitely worthy of note, re the "non standard" controls. I come from a background of restoring prewar cars and one "theme" that's very common from this era of engineering is that nobody had quite worked out where things were meant to go yet and innovation was fast and plentiful which meant that different manufacturers had their own ideas on placement/type of controls etc. Case in point, how many modern car drivers could drive a model T or prewar Bentley for instance? They wouldn't even be able to start it, let alone drive it.
I used to have to start 1930's engines... Spark advance and choke are manually adjusted and set before cranking. It is up to the operator to determine the correct values depending on engine temperature, atmospheric conditions, etc... In extremely cold or wet weather it may be necessary on some models to open the hood and manually prime the intake with a small lever on the side of the downdraft carburetor. Each engine type and model have their own quirks that when recognized make for easy starts: one 12 cylinder engine I ran only started if you retarded the spark all the way, and then with the choke properly set, you crank the engine while advancing the spark. As the spark advance lever crosses the sweet spot the engine would always fire... If you didn't hit that spot you could crank all day and never get a cylinder to fire, but when you got the right spark timing, the engine leapt to life instantly, roaring and ready to go to work. -- I have had to start some old oil burner engines too. Where you preheat the head with a blow torch or a fire. I saw a guy start a big oil burner tractor once: he soaked a rag in kerosene, wrapped it on the end of a stick and lit it on fire. Then he got onto the PTO wheel and got some bounce back from the compression stroke. As the PTO reversed and rolled the opposite direction the guy shoved the burning rag into the open air intake for the cylinder, and jumped on the PTO wheel to help push the crank over through the compression stroke. The engine fired with a loud "POP" and the half burned rag, still glowing with embers, coughed out the exhaust stack.
*Why* would a) the aircraft be parked with flaps fully extended and b) how could the condition not be noticed during the walk-around? Edit: c) or final check?
If the preflight inspection called for the lowering of flaps and a checklist item was missed to not retract them prior to take off, that would enable the scenario of taking off with full flaps.
@@xfirehurican Nobody said the aircraft was parked with the flaps down, they could have been lowered during taxi or even just before take-off as part of the control surfaces check. Many people will speculate this is a pilot error, but this can also be a mechanical or electrical failure, the pilots may have thought the flaps were up, because the lever was in the up position. Because of the split flap configuration pilots cannot see from the cockpit if the flaps are up or down.
@@MarcoNierop failure to retract the flaps after a previous landing is certainly possible too. In either case, it may point to a checklist item missed.
I was there, just landed before they took off. Can't talk about it except that it rolled left nose down from a few hundred feet altitude. That would only happen if the flaps on 1 side were stuck or unevenly retracting. Also a left engine failure could do that. The airplane taxied out and initial take off with both engines running and sounding normal. A local journalist/photographer has video and pictures but can't release those due to the investigation. Just heart wrenching, it was a Father's Day event and Frank and his son just gave an interview as part of a panel.
Another Lockheed 12A crashed today at approximately 8:00 p.m. upon landing at the Seven Lakes Airport, Jackson, Butts County, Georgia. All three occupants were life flighted to local hospitals. The Lockheed appeared to have departed the runway and crashed into a tree. At this point we do not know whether the aircraft is a total loss or not...
...I remember seeing this Aircraft parked by the Museum. It was a nice pllane with it's distinctive verticle stabilizers paint job. Sad day at Chino..........
To clarify: split flaps do indeed *increase lift* and are thus useful for approach & landing. They are not just dive brakes. They do, however, cause considerable drag, and some planes do not have sufficient power to overcome that drag to accelerate and climb as needed for take-off or go-arounds. The new "DarkAero" high-performance plane under development uses split flaps, and has a good RU-vid video entitled "The Biggest Myth About Split Flaps."
In RC gliders, we extend the flaps like that on final. The controller automatically puts pitch correction in the elevator and the plane drops out of the sky. No plane can hold altitude in that configuration.
I love old aircraft. Flew in a Collins Foundation Liberator bomber in 2019. 9-0-9, a B17 was there, and was lost a few weeks later. I’m now convinced that there comes a time when these aircraft should be grounded in operational order to preserve them for future generations.
I agree. I often hear people say, "they're made to fly", or "I'd rather see them in the air". Well sure, I would too, but now what? This vintage aircraft is now charred wreckage and 2 are dead. Eventually, all we'll have are pics and videos.
Interesting Juan mentions both the flaps and gear are actuated by a "plunger" switch. I wonder if both those switches are next to each other and indicate the condition of the system after being pushed. Do you then pull on the plunger to reverse the action? Also, can you stop the flap travel in the middle of its actuation by pulling on the plunger or do you have to let the action complete full travel before trying to retract them? Pure conjecture of course but I wonder if somehow one of the pilots inadvertently pushed the flap plunger accidentally and then hit the gear plunger to help clean up the aircraft. I'm sure we'll learn from the NTSB or maybe even Juan down the road. He is a pretty busy guy. I wish he wasn't so busy will all these mishaps.
On final approach into Beef Island, BVI, in a DC3 I had a flap asymmetry as a result of one actuating rod end breaking just as the flaps reached full extension. Fortunately, if flap up is selected, being a hydraulic system that dumps pressure, we got control, but for a moment we had a good view of the surrounding terrain at a rather steep angle. On another occasion in the same aircraft, on takeoff when we selected gear up, a hydraulic line to the cockpit pressure gauge burst and sprayed hot oil all over the first officer. I ordered him to select gear down again. We got it down and locked before completely losing hydraulics, but had to do a flapless landing. There’s not much difference in approach speeds with split flap setups, as they are mostly a drag device. When things go wrong with flight controls, sometimes going back to the previous configuration gets you out of trouble. Close to the ground may not give you time for troubleshooting.
RIP to those on-aboard. Yanks Air Museum is a class act. If you've never been there, go! They -as well as the families/friends of those lost- have my prayers, sympathies, and condolences.
with the characteristics you mentioned inadvertent flap extension at those heights during takeoff would be quite deadly then, especially if you're not fully ready for it
I experienced a split flap condition in a Twin Comanche. Strong roll started. Immediately reversed the flap switch. Every student pilot should be made aware of the possibility.
Samething happened to me in a Commanche 260 during forty-five to downwind. Immediately rolled left requiring almost full opposite aileron. Brought flaps up and no flap landing.
And I thought I wanted to become a pilot. GEES! THERES SO DAMN MUCH YA GOTTA KNOW. IM SLOWLY LEARNING I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE A PILOT. TOO MANY VARIABLES TO MAKE IT UN ENJOYABLE!
Thank you for your time, and expertise bringing us news, and updates.! BEST CHANNEL ON EARTH.!! PERIOD.!! Wish we could do a ride along video with you on an OLD STARLIFTER.!! Now that would be AWESOME.!! Wishful thinking I guess.!?? They are all over the hill like us.!!😮😅. I always had a soft spot for them over the Galaxy, and others.! Wild looking bird, a beauty in her own way.! They provided us with sustenance, and other unmentionables😮, we needed. Branch cross training exercises for a select few at FORT BRAGG,😮😂, and POPE AIR FORCE BASE.! I know you have been there.! Maybe SEYMOUR JOHNSON AFB, too. Ever been to CHERRY POINT MCAS.? Same State.! NEW RIVER MCAS, at CAMP LEJEUNE.!? I'm about 1.5 hours NW of POPE. I've often wondered if you dropped my cousins, two actual brothers, separate companies into GRENADA, RANGERS 504TH.? PANAMA.!? LOGISTICS flights for DESERT STORM.? SOMALIA.? HAITI.? KOSOVO.? Those other things, and places that never happened, and don't exist.!!?😮😊.! The War on Terror, you know all the MANY different STAN COUNTRIES where Logistics Bases were.!?? IRAQI FREEDOM.!? I know you are a few years older than me. Don't know what years you served exactly.!? It's a really good rush jumping from a very good perfectly safe, mechanically sound aircraft on a moonless night.!!😂. THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY.!!! I MEAN IT, MY FRIEND.!!! SEMPER FIDELIS.!! Prayers going up for you, and your family, and friends for your health, and safety.!! P.S. To ALL the keyboard warriors out there, please take note this is Not my device.!! Keep any comments NICE, as this is my 85 year old Mother in laws tablet, and account.!! THANK YOU.!!! If it ain't CAPTAIN JUAN BROWNE, I'M STAYING ON THE GROUND.!!!!😊😅😂😂❤❤❤🥇🥇🥇🥇😉😉😉😉😉
Sorry for the loss of life. My dad flew in the navy. The Snj3 was the biggest plane he flew. Ive been studying Earhart off and on since 1970s in 6th grade. I wrote a thesis based on 1921 National Geographic magazine on Earhart. Based on what little I know of the Lockheed Electra 10 E; it was an awkward plane to fly. Any twin engined plane offers extreme awkwardness because each engine pulls to its own side. The throttles have to be delicately nursed in order to have equal power lest one engine over or under steer. I am not a pilot nor claim any real life knowledge with either the 10A or 10E Electra so if I've miss spoken please excuse my nativity, I always wanted to be a pilot but my eyesight was not good enough and my math was lowsy. Still I soldiered on into the Earhart mystery and my dads old pilot books from the navy. I studied them as a child but have lost them over the years. I am deeply saddened over these two pilots who were killed in the 10A. My dad and I would drive by the Weed airport on our way to visit my grandfather in Oakland CA. I would always look for Lockheed Electras at all the airports whenever my dad would take my mother and I traveling. Thank you Sir for your explanation of how these two pilots lost their lives in the precocious Electra. I am convinced it was rushed into production and was an unstable aircraft. What a tragedy! In my mind the Electras of any size were an ill conceived hegemony to fly. Thank you for explaining to a lay person the quirks of a Lockheed. So called flying laboratory. Deeply appreciated, many thanks, drive safe.God bless.😢
Familiarity is perhaps both an asset and a danger . Flying without a written checklist and clearly marked controls referenced by the checklist makes for the occasional brain fade or distraction a dangerous thing, especially with age. It only takes seconds for momentary confusion to turm into disaster. Let's hope this was not the cause.
Terrible to lose excellent pilots & a beauty vintage aircraft like this. As I recall in the movie 'It's a Mad Mad World' the late Buddy Hackett was shown flying this type during the movie too. It's a funny scene that depicted the luxuriousness of this type with a bar in the back. That plane was a beauty, I have deep respect for those that continued it's legacy, RIP to those that kept it alive all those years & condolences to family/friends to the lost souls.
@@igclapp Need to clarify, as Juan mentioned these were luxury aircraft at the time flying around oil field executives. I was going by memory a YT clip of the movie scene. I need to study up the 2models and get back with you.
Gut wrenching incident and loss of life once again. Flying is awesome with equal levels for joy and risk. Thank you for your solid analysis and opinion.
The is a video posted by Ed Whisenant Aviation which appears to be the previous landing. It may just be an optical illusion of the light and the highly reflective metal, however, it appears that the left flap is randomly moving, "split". With a history of a previous broken/repaired flap this is suspicious. (A pilot might react to an uncommanded single flap extension by extending flaps in an attempt to balance the lift.)
@KennethAGrimm I see a video posted on his youtube channel yesterday showing the plane landing on May 9th 2015. Is that the video that you are saying is from the previous landing?
@@jimslimm6090 Thanks for digging deeper; my post "appears to be" (based upon the labels referring to the crash) was a quick response, intended as a "take a look here" note only.
As usual, great video, Juan. Just a comment on the terminology of a “split flap” condition versus a “flap asymmetry” condition. I recall in the 727, which had inboard and outboard trailing edge flaps, that if, when extending or retracting the flaps, the inboards moved together, but the outboards did not move, that was termed a split flap condition, and would not result in an uncommanded roll problem. Whereas, a flap asymmetry would’ve been if one inboard flap moved, and the other inboard flap did not move, (and the outboard flaps both operated properly), that would create a roll problem. And as you are aware, since you are familiar with the Airbus 320, a protection feature called “wingtip brakes” would engage preventing the latter condition from developing beyond a certain point. (These comments mostly with reference to your experience previously in the airplane when on approach and flap extension, one flap came down and the other didn’t, and the pilot quickly retracted flaps and thus safely continued. I perhaps would’ve viewed that as a flap asymmetry).
Hey Juan, thanks for all the great content and reviews. These videos have definitely made me a better (or at least more aware) pilot! I live right by the Centennial Airport in CO and we’ve have 2 GA crashes within the past 2 weeks or so. Wondering if you’d be able to do a dive into them, would love to hear your take. I’ve heard rumors from the folks at BJC (where I typically fly out of) about the bonanza crash, but as best I can tell they’re just rumors. So yeah, would love your take!
Mikecobb …. the procedure is: Go around, flap one. Positive climb, gear up. But if the flap does not retract, you are in trouble. On the Dak, we used flap one for tale off. It gives lift, but not much drag (the Dak also had split flaps). Full flap would be - well - a drag. R
Hoover said you have to use a checklist before take off flaps up would have been on the takeoff check list. so sad to possibly have missed something so grave. TY Juan for your AV insights you are a true expert. KNOW YOUR PLANE 107% and how it works. Were the flaps left down from prior landing is next question or engaged before rollout either way its most likely PE than a malfunction. a spitfire last month a b 17 + p63 last year few days ago the T36 now the LH 12a so sad maybe its time to ground these 100yo planes.
@@marumiyuhime 909 B17. Run by a megalomaniac who did everything himself.. on a four engined bomber? Massive human error. The hugely experienced Dale Snodgrass didnt chk the lock.. The safest pilot guy who got into a cockpit with the owner but didnt know who was in charge etc, they died ...it goes on
These were seen as top notch aircraft at the time. Many of the things that seem like vices to us were standard practice at the time. Anyone flying when this plane was built would be familiar with the way things worked. I wonder if people who do not fly these old planes often get out of the groove. I'm no pilot, but reading the accounts by long time warbird guys from the UK and the like, vintage planes have a fair number of idiosyncrasies. They seem to be fairly strict on pilot standards for them. Hate to see these events, loss of life and history.
You also have to think about proficiency in that particular aircraft. How often do you think they flew it around? It doesn’t take much of a change in your routine before the gremlins start showing up.
If flight cannot be sustained with flaps extended, it is surprising to me that the aircraft would be capable of takeoff and achieve an altitude greater than ground effect, which it did if it climbed to 300'. Unless the flaps were extended after takeoff which seems like an odd thing for a pilot to do.
Heard the report of this crash on a LA AM radio station just minutes afterward. The eyewitness report summed up the worst, however so inaccurate. Prayers for the family loss.
In one of Kermit's videos looking at this plane during a tour last year, Charles Nichols and Frank said this was used as their corporate plane. I guess they've flown it frequently, so wouldn't they ensure the flaps were retracted for take off? Maybe it was overlooked if they didn't do the pre-flight. Were they too low and slow to retract them if they had discovered the error? TY Juan, really love your insight. So very sad for them, their families and spectators 💔.
Lots of comments AS a owner operater of a l 12a here is a couple of observations of the 12 if as indicated they commenced takeoff with neally full flap with only two people and not much else on board that ac would hav a extremely short takeoff roll and straight into a steep climb it would have been extremely difficult to stop this excerpt by immediate cautious retard of power to try to hold descent rate flaps retraction is relatively quick with air pressure on them to a safe control speed if identified early enough too slow full power and full flap and the aircraft will torque roll and flick on its back in a split second climb in this configuration would of been at slow speed these aircraft are beautiful and fantastic to fly and the performance of these old girls still amaze me mine is number 36 out the Lockheed door and it was a requirement by Lockheed that pilots taking delivery of these slippery aircraft had to demonstrate some acrobatic manoeuvres safely before departing with the aircraft these aircraft are stressed to six g it distresses me to see tail high fast wheelie landings the aircraft is safe at gross weight at 65 knots on approach and with no more than thirty dregrees flap retard the throttles through the flair and the aircraft will sink nicely into the three point attitude safely setting down and rolling gently and slowing quickly to a pleasant taxi speed a truley remarkable aircraft way ahead of its time if it was a toss up between a Lockheed 12a and a beautiful woman take the Lockheed it will quickly fill with beautiful women anyway hope this sheds a little light on this beautiful aircraft
Yes, why this love of wheel landings? I thought the advantage of the 12a over an 18 was because it has enough elevator authority to make full at all 3 pointers. That wheel landing slows down into the most dynamically unstable moment. All the rolling resistance on the mains builds as lift diminishes and activates the aft cg swap around moment. That tailwheel belongs on the ground where it'll do you some good. not up in the air . also generates rolling resistance to offset the behind the mains cg.[
Yes, we must all use, apply and fly to the checklists for our aircraft. They will never be perfect, but they give us a good starting point to work from. I well remember my first ever go around with flaps 40 in a c150.......power yes, stick forward yes, but it was pulling the flaps which allowed us to fly away
It's amazing how many people take the stall-spin instead of the controlled crash. It's almost like they aren't mentally preparing themselves for that emergency, and primacy of avoiding stall was never developed as a student pilot.
It is also surprising how many think it's pull back to go up. It's like they never saw the speed/drag curve when they did their basic aeronautical knowledge test.
Even Sully let the airspeed decay too much as they were making their water landing; it is really stunning how many pilots seem to not have a healthy enough fear of the airspeed going too low. I figured that airspeed/AoA would be emphasized above all else in training. Maybe folks need to be started out on gliders. Seems like that would give them a more acute and consistent awareness of the airspeed and AoA.
Maybe during the before takeoff checklist, the flaps did not come up. Maybe it popped a fuse or something. Really can’t think of why they would’ve been extended . other than preflight operations.
There were only 130 built originally. I'd be surprised if there are more than just a couple left that are even airworthy. Who's going to make a kit for a handful of owners that aren't even asking for it?
