Na-ion battery test (Seekwatt 3V 1300mAh 18650) 

Nope, most all battery chemistries are already known in the industry since the 70's / 80's.

@@flexairz I don’t remember being able to actually buy lithium ion or sodium ion batteries for my toys in the 80’s…. Heck, I don’t even think I could buy sodium ion batteries just a few years ago. Not sure what you mean.

​@@flexairzthat is complete BS when we're talking about modern lithium-ion (nickel, cobalt, mangan, titanium) rechargeables that were commercialized as late as 1991 in their first chemistries. lifepo4 were first developed in 1996. replacing lithium with sodium has been explored almost since then, but there was always problem with stability, solved only in recent years which made sodium batteries finally viable (prussian white as interesting compound pushing the envelope there). so no, this is not 70s/80s tech we're talking here.

@@flexairz being _known_ by the industry and actually being _sold_ by the industry are completely different things. Coming up with a chemical formula in a lab is a lot less difficult than actually designing a mass-producible product using that chemistry.

yea lol the modern milwaukee m18 battery weren't on shelves in the 80s this is a newer refined thing

i bet they're working on the 30Ah model already😂😂

A stupid question: why are sodium ion batteries safer than li-ion if sodium is more active in a periodic table (there are videos where lithium, sodium, potassium are thrown in a water)

1. The actual amount of Na or Li is quite small, and makes a negligible impact on volume, especially as its dissolved as a salt in the electrolyte. The volume of an electrolyte with Na ions and one with Li ions is pretty much the same, even if the one with Na ions has a higher molarity. 2. Cycle life is better in Na-ion than Li-ion.

​@@Gameplayer55055when an isolated metal is more reactive, it actually forms stronger bonds. It is more reactive *because* it is seizing a partner with great force, but once it has that partner that same force works to hold on to that partner firmly.

@@PixlRainbow Understandable

@@ozzymandius666 The actual volume of the ions is tiny but the volume of the anode and cathode has to be larger. You are never getting 100% fill of the available intercalation sites. You need an empty space for the sodium ion to go into. It happens that for lithium the graphene layers in graphite match up pretty well but this is not the case for sodium ions so you need to either stretch the spacing in a graphite based system, use a graphene based composite, or use a different anode system. This by the simple physics must be larger and therefore less dense. As for cathode we all know the common lithium ion materials, we were looking at some similar olivine like structures but of course with larger sites for the sodium ions. And for a few of the molten salt cells we just used a chunk of sodium metal but that was a whole other ball game. Cycle life may eventually be better, depending on the electrolyte you can eliminate a lot of the SEI instability. Lithium and lithium salts are super aggressive compared to sodium. You still have the issue witu stress and strain in the anode and cathode. I can tell you this was the biggest hurdle for us particularly on the anode side. This is also why lithium-silicon batteries didn't get too far.

i wonder what would happen if you opened the battery and put salt in it

The whole room is vibrating now, the glass is jumping, water is splashing everywhere...

Sodium and iron are much more available materials, i bet once production ramps up, prices will go much down.

0.07 - Yes definitely confirmed. New chemical compound patented.

*Nájs.

more Sodium chloride, even more Sodium chloride

*battereeee

The aluminium of sodium

It's quite easy to design products that can handle the input voltage range. The problem is just that products for lithium ion haven't been designed to work down to 1.5 V per cell, as it's not needed. Even worse is that dicharging lithium ion cells down to 1.5 V, will damage them, so most products is set to cut off at about 2.8-3.3 V, even if they can work at lower voltages. Most curcuits, that's "flexible" with the voltage, can easily handle for example 3-8 V (if 2 cells are used in series) and more sensitive circuits, will need a DC/DC converter or regulator anyway, as even lithium ion usually have too much variation and/or be in the wrong voltage range - like LED lighting, many digital circuits that may accept only for example 4.5-5.5 V or for example things that contains a voltage controlled ocillator (VCO) or use control voltages for other functions These batteries have been made to hold up to 160 Wh/kg (which is similar to lithium iron phosphate), so these at 118 Wh/kg seems in the lower end - but the chemistry is still quite new, so all battery manufacturers have probably not optimized them to get the full energy density that's currently achievable.

A device that was designed with a battery cut-off at 2.9V will only have buck converters powering its 2.0-2.8V loads if anything at all. If you want those to operate all the way down to 1.5V, you need to replace buck converters with buck-boost/SEPIC ones. Na-ion is primarily aimed at stationary battery storage since it has fundamentally no chance of matching lithium for transportation and portable electronics. Weight and volumetric energy density don't matter quite as much as cost effectiveness, safety and useful life.

@@Speeder84XL A lot of compromises go into energy density: if you make a battery for high-intensity discharge for things like UPS that require 10-20C discharge rate, your current collecting plates/foil needs to be much thicker than a cell that sacrifices internal resistance for the absolute highest energy density to power small loads over a long time for the lowest cost possible like a smoke detector. Thick foil is likely part of the reason these cells performed practically the same from 0.1C to 2C, negligible change in internal I2R losses.

@@teardowndan5364 Product's doen't really have to work all the way down to 1.5 V either (he just choosed that voltage as it was the lowest specified to be sure to not damage the battery) - as we saw on the graph, it will still have like 90-95% of it's capacity left, if discharged to 2 V. But, that's still lower than what's suitable for lithium ion and even lithium iron phosphate. Good point about energy density - it will of course be a trade off between the internal resistance and energy density (I forgot about that). For small portable electronics we will probably continue to use lithium for quite a while and it probably doesn't matter that much when it comes to the environmenal impact and source material scarcity anyway. The amount of energy that needs to be stored for those devices is so small anyway. The real issue with lithium ion comes when used for large stationary energy storages (such as level out the supply and demand for the power grid). Even for vehicles lithium ion has it's problems - both when it comes to resource scarcity for manufacturing and the nasty battery fires that can happen with those. Most electric cars today use the really worst batteries when it comes to those factors - the lithium cobalt manganese ones (which have the highest energy density). Some electric cars do get off using lower energy lithium iron phosphate batteries instead and those could maybe use sodium ion as well. After all - the biggest issue for electric cars today isn't energy density, but the price (especially given the fact they are still much more expensive than ICE cars and still have their limitations that people don't like - mainly when it comes to drive long distances). A big part of the price is the expensive batteries. When sodium ion comes into mass production, they will probably be much cheaper. I think most people would prefer a car that's like 600 kg heavier and have slightly higher power consumption (we are probably talking about less than 10% at the higher speeds >120 km/h, where it really matters. Most of the energy there is used to overcome air resistance, rather than rolling resistance and get up to speed. Air resistance isn't affected by weight. At low speeds the energy consumtion is so low anyway that even if there is a 30% increase there, it doesn't really matter) - compared to one that have otherwise similar range and performance, but cost twice as much (which is most likely also going to get worse in the future, as the supplies of lithium, cobalt and other stuff starts to dwindle).

@@Speeder84XL There are many problems with using Na-ion as the drive battery in a BEV. EVs already wear out tires 2-3X as fast from increased weight combined with high torque, adding ~30% to battery pack weight to achieve the same range is going to make that even worse. The steep voltage curve also means you have to design the inverter, motor and everything else connected to HVDC to operate on 400-900V. Having to design a power supply to handle a >2:1 voltage and current range makes everything more expensive. With LFP, that is closer to 1.25:1, no need to overbuild for increased current at low SoC anywhere near as much. Having to handle 50% more peak current also means you are going to need 50% more copper everywhere from the battery pack cells to the motor windings. Fast-charging a battery with a 2:1 spread from 0 to 100% is also going to be annoying with fast-charging speed becoming heavily dependent on SoC voltage: you hook up to a 350kW 900V/400A charger, only get 160kW at low SoC due to pack voltage only being 400V and can only hypothetically reach 350kW when the pack is practically full. I bet most people would prefer if it was the other way around. Using the inverter-motor as a buck regulator to increase power delivery will be essential. Another additional expense. Having to deal with a higher voltage-current spread will also increase switching and coupling losses all around, probably going to lose 1-2% on inverter-motor efficiency there. I'm sure there are many other knock-on effects of using batteries with steep SoC voltage curves in an EV.

OK, if you insist - please check back in a few years.

keep on dreaming

When in worked on these about 10 years ago our target was as cheap as possible targeting grid level storage and replacing lead acid car batteries.

They can add built-in step-down converters, like in some "AA" Li-Ion, to get a flat 1.5V over the discharge cycle.

@@Ammoniummetavanadate Interesting. Wouldn't that require lithium to be absurdly expensive? I mean, from what I've read theoretically about 80 grams of lithium is required per kWh capacity, and using sodium means significantly bigger batteries for a given capacity, which in turn increases the the amount of other materials required, which adds cost, and the bigger size adds other costs.

@@fishyerik Less the lithium, more the electrolyte and cathode materials.

he sums it up in the end - they would be useful only for stationary energy storage (think of storage of wind/solar power).

would it be needed? The max current is 2.56A, minimal drop probably

You obviously didn't watch the video, as the 4-wire connections are clearly visible eg: 5:48

@@johncoops6897 You obviously didn't watch the video, as he talked about the voltage drop in the measurement.

@@kyoudaiken - I did watch it, did you? The 4-wire is clearly shown.

@@johncoops6897 It doesn't show where the wires go so I'd not assume anything.

Na

Chinese drunk spelling .

these will be the ones who can hold most energy(lose at least so far)

LOL. You clearly have a deep knowledge of the Welsh Valley accent!

He is polish or from Lithuania

@@MoesKeckeEcke Any idea where he learned his English? Thanks for that info. M.

@@munchingsquirrel5067 Almost certainly not, but what most people consider the 'Welsh Accent', is from the valleys, in particular the long, drawing out of the last syllable, with a curious tonal inflexion in the middle. In the north of Ireland, my homeplace, we tend to raise the tone/pitch towards the end of sentences, making it seem we are constantly asking questions, but this seems to rise, and fall again on that last syllable. I have, quite clearly, a terrible ear for accents, so ignore all of the above. Regards, M.

No you don't. These batteries are half the power of lithium ion. Then again maybe these won't explode and burn your house down. Which is a plus.

@@1pcfredisn’t that what the pannier rack is for?

@@SproutyPottedPlant no

You can get lifepo4 packs for scooters.

@@jimmybrad156 better known as, ignition sources.

I guess just like a single 2600mAh cell.

Sodium ion batteries have a higher internal resistance, which means that if they are short-circuited, they don't produce enough heat to catch fire spontaneously.

thanks for your support ;)

They're also making 10Ah, 18Ah, 75Ah and 210Ah cells.

​​@@DiodeGoneWildthat's nice🙂👍

The benefit of sodium-ion batteries is that they can use existing lithium-ion manufacturing process. That may partly be reason why they went with 18650.

@@richardlighthouse5328 - Diode simply chose the 18650 size when purchasing. These batteries are available in other form factors.

I didn't even notice :D

Thank you for your support ;)

Yeah china lol

I have no reason to suspect these batteries also don't have rare earth elements in the cathode. I should buy some and do some chemical analysis.

It's not, because NiMh cells are usually used for consumer goods with 1.2v, if you made sodium ion in AA size, people will put it in their remote and wonder why it blew up, nimh will stay the regular replacable AA battery because people will put the wrong chemistry in, also it doesn't incentivize planned obsolescence which makes companies money, sodium ion will simply exist alongside lithium ion in 18650 size in battery packs, but not in AA size

@@sigataros in 99.99% of times cells are paired so the voltage is 3V and more (1.5 to 1.6 of brand new alkaline AA batteries), could replace pair of cells by a single one. Smartass

Stationary storage. Energy density is less important.

The capacity comparison you make between Na-ion and LiFePo4 does not make sense. For a cell of the same size (e.g 18650), you can get LiFePo4 cells that are only marginally bigger than this Na-ion (up to 2 Ah maybe?). For normal lithium cells, the difference is a little bigger (up to around 3.5 Ah). I would argue that Na-ion is probably around the same price per Ah as LiFePo4 cells (I saw you can buy 4 pcs of the cells mentioned in the video for only 13$). I think you would also easily spend that money on 4x1.3 Ah worth of LiFePo4 cells. But compared to normal lithium cells, yes, it is probably a bit more expensive still. But I am suprised by how cheap and well available these cells already seem to be :-)

Ask Chat GPT

its not gonna explode