What I really like about stuff like the Nameless Things and Tom Bombodil is that they make Middle-Earth feel so much bigger, and in a way, more real. They're a mystery. Even Tolkien didn't explain them, and had no real desire to attempt to.
That's how I view it. I don't need every mystery solved and hate it when people just want to fit everything into a neat box. The Legendarium is better by having these unknowns within it.
Isaac Asimov in describing an artefact of highly advanced technology far beyond our comprehension said that in his own stories, he simply would state what it did, rather than go into detail, trying to illustrate what lay beyond one's grasp. How could one explain to the folk of a quiet, cosy village nestled in the English country- side a microwave oven, a tele- vision, an air conditioner, a car, an aircraft; even making the attempt likely would make them keenly apprehensive. This even could degrade to fear-driven religious fervour.
I agree. It’s sort of like Yoda in the Star Wars universe. He’s there, but he has no canon species nor planet of origin, and he’s supposed to stay that way.
I think an aspect of Tolkein's genius, was that he didn't attempt to explain all things. He left it up to the imagination of the individual to further explore, or not.
I know this with my own series (plural) of novels. I have two books finished of an expected ten, comprising Volume One. These latter I have written; I need to edit them, better to fit a cohesive narrative. Unfortunately, my notebook no longer will recharge, and I lack the means to repair or replace it.
It's interesting how Gandalf was worried about Sauron recruiting Smaug but not the nameless things. Maybe they were too powerful to control, like the Eagles.
Or maybe they were simply uncontrollable because they were much more powerful than the likes of Sauron or even Morgoth. There are so many mysteries that plague Tolkien’s world much like our own.
The nameless things are older than even Morgoth. Therefore, the nameless are beyond any thing that Morgoth or Sauron can influence. The nameless things have no concern, nor are they affected by anything that Sauron and Morgoth are doing. They were there before Sauron and Morgoth and they will continue to be there long after. The nameless things may be so far beyond the world that we know that they may not even know what or who Sauron and Morgoth are.
Indeed! My favorite thing with the entire channel. Perfectly walks the line between what is directly stated in the works and own interpretation. Pure class
If I remember correctly Steven doesn't like the use of the word "canon." Maybe he will do a whole video on it, but I don't think he likes people calling some stuff canon and not other stuff.
@Enerdhil - I hate the word canon and I hate how it is used by some to ignore certain text when it doesn't fit a view they hold. All while they cling to another text that was published after Tolkien's death. It's strange to me and goes against how I view the Legendarium (myths, legends, tales, history). I still have my own standards - such as ignoring video games about Tolkien or text he clearly abandoned (unless it's important for the point I'm trying to make) but I really dislike debates that have someone say "Well, we can ignore that because it isn't canon". What gives them the right to decide that? Anyway, a video about "the canon" ? It's a possibility. I'd like to be clear that anyone can enjoy Tolkien in any way they wish. I'm not an authority but just don't argue against my use of HoMe or Letters with the only reason being the canon. I'll ignore the debate :D .
@@TheRedBook Agreed. Still, I find the word useful if used in the sense: "supported by text"/"not supported". Since no authority exists beyond the original author (wouldn't consider Christopher Tolkien as such while he still lived, even though for editorial reasons he obviously had a great influence of what is at all available for the general public), picking and choosing from original works like some religious canon only seems silly.
@@TheRedBook Yes, I know. I agree that some posters use the word to justify their position on issues that Tolkien himself wasn't clear about. On the other hand, I think what is written in the LotR should be considered "canon" because Tolkien himself wrote and edited the book over many years and was willing to have it published. I think The Hobbit has some strange inconsistencies and maybe Tolkien wished he could have rewritten parts. The Silmarillion says orcs come from corrupted elves, but it really seems that he changed his mind about that. I think his letters should be "canon." In them he gives his true opinion about many issues. Also, Morgoth's Ring and The Peoples of Middle Earth have a lot of valuable information about various aspects of the lore. You are the one who helped me realize that learning more about the lore is more important than just knowing "canon." Thanks! 😁
I believe the Watcher in the Water could still qualify as one of the "nameless things" or things that came into being prior to the decent of the Valar upon EA. The fact that the watcher attacked Frodo first could have just been a result of the Watcher being able to perceive the inherent power of the "one ring" and thereby being attracted to it like a Magpie is attracted to shiny objects.
I relish the connection drawn here between Tolkien and Lovecraft. Tolkien's "odd corners" sound like Lovecraft's "non-Euclidean geometry" to me. Also, it's no accident that the Watcher in the Water is distinguished by its tentacles, just as tentacles have become symbolic shorthand for Lovecraft's entire mythos. Finally, I appreciate the suggestion that Tom Bombadil is a sort of 'good' version of these Nameless Things, since otherwise Tom is a bit of an unconnected oddity, without a real metaphysical place in Tolkien's world.
@@beneficent2557 The Nameless Things may be creations of Morgoth or (as suggested in the video) primeval beings that have an origin apart from him, like Ungoliant (and Tom). When I read about Oromë hunting "monsters and fell beasts" I initially thought that this referred to the Nameless Things, but these fell beasts are called "the evil creatures of Melkor" which implies that Morgoth made them or at least controlled them.
I think it's a stretch to link odd-corners with non-euclidean geometry, if anything it sounds like just a britishism like Bibs and Bobs so talk about useless junk.
I don't like that idea, particularly because Lovecraft's mythos is about much more than tentacles - try not to concern yourself with how things are understood in culture at large. I know it's there, it has an effect, but it's just a dim echo. Don't let that affect your understanding of the work or any somewhat associated work.
A funny coincidence: I read „the Hobbit“ for my 5 year old daughter yesterday evening when we went to bed. We read the part where Bilbo stumbles through the dark under the dwellings of the goblins. My daughter found the mentioning of those beings in the side tunnels creepy. When the children slept I went down and watched this video discussing exactly the same passage in the book.
I saw an interesting quote in the second chapter of fellowship, when Gandalf returns with news of the ring "Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had NO NAME" I have fucking chills dude!
I think that hints at the concept itself - the nameless. It's almost strange trying to work out what they are, especially people who make out that these "Nameless Things" are some race. It could be an untold number of unique creatures, without a name. The Nameless Things are always going to be Nameless and that's what makes them frightening and interesting.
It has been noted that Tolkien was a master in “layering” his work so that there are ever more depths to the mythologies and histories he imagined. I think your commentary on Northern European sagas sharpens our perspective on this. As a child, one of the most captivating things about Tolkien, even in the Hobbit, was reading about events barely mentioned, with that “shrouded in the mists of time” feeling. Even a ten-year-old gets it. And of course, the events in the Hobbit are only riding on the surface of a very deep ocean!
Did you read The Hobbit first? Always interested in hearing how that shaped original readers perceptions when it then came to The Lord of the Rings, where everything was far grander in scale and the stakes were higher. It must have been quite a jump between these stories!
@@TheRedBook I first encountered the Rankin Bass production which heavily influences my perception of the works of Tolkien. But it didnt end there. I have read everything he put out concerning Arda. And the works his son released thereafter.
@@TheRedBook I read The Hobbit first. I had been reading science fiction first but stayed away from fantasy because I thought of it as basically being for small children. An aunt of mine suggested I try THE Hobbit, so I did. Well, it was clear it was still written for children but was still much better than anything I had been exposed to previously so then I read LOTR. That was literally a life-changing experience as it greatly influenced many of the choices I would make later in life. Sadly though, my desire to grow up to be a wizard was not to be! Interestingly enough the aunt who suggested The Hobbit to me did not find LOTR that interesting. I never could understand that.
@@TheRedBook Yes. My mother introduced Narnia and the Hobbit to me during a time when I was home from school during an extended bout of tonsillitis. Then I read the Lord of the Rings perhaps a year or two later. When I was 15, I read the Hobbit and LOTR aloud to my younger brother, who had a reading disability. I loved him and didn’t want him to miss the treasure.
@@TheRedBook I think that in reading the Hobbit I was snagged by the references to Elrond’s history and to the Necromancer…that gave me all the motivation I needed to read LOTR because I always wanted to “find out more”…to dig into the layers. The Appendices absolutely enthralled me. My friends who were kind of cowgirls thought I was weird. I remember one of them saying, “you read too many books!” It wasn’t so funny then, but I have to laugh remembering it. Is there such a thing as too many books? Lol.
It's definitely possible that the nameless things were created as an afterthought of Melkor's Discord. So, I find it poetically ironic that melkor was almost laid low by ungoliant. A creature, possibly of his own accidental creation, much like actions taken in life. Your actions hold consequences and can bring you ruin. Melkor reaps the harvest of his own planted seeds. All as intended by Eru.
It always strikes me as odd that the Mouth of Sauron refers to his master as "Sauron the Great". "Abhorred the Great" - a Numenorean would surely see the contradiction there.
I've wondered about that before, too. It might have been an oversight by Tolkien, or it could be that the Mouth of Sauron just figured that nobody would know what he was talking about if he said "Mairon the Great." Or whatever Sauron calls himself in the Third Age.
Hello! This is something I'm going to cover in my "Inconsistencies" series. I have a reason or two why that name was used in the text. I don't know when that video will come but I think it's going to be the next one in that series. That or the gate of Moria having the name Moria on it before the place was actually called that...
@@TheRedBook Just a random though that came to me. Saurons goal is to bring order to the world through absolute control. He knew people feared him, and the name Sauron by which they called him. Maybe he decided to take ownership of the name, so in a sense he could control their fear.
Am I the only one who finds the idea of the Nameless things terrifying beyond the imaginable? I mean, Moria itself is a frightening place. So dark, inmensely vast and taken by the goblins. But the idea that in its deepest depths you can find the most inconceivable horrors... It just kills me
A wise and gentle delivery of thoughtful and thought provoking matters, beautifully presented with great and powerful gentleness - which I think, is your best feature. Carry on with this good work
Thanks! It's a topic covered by just about everyone and there's definitely a lot I would change about it if I decided to remake it but it seems to be my most popular video on the channel :D
The Nameless Ones being Lovecraftian-style Eldritch Abominations make a LOT OF SENSE. As for the Watcher In The Water, I still think it's possible that it could be one of the Nameless Things. It's entirely possible that it going after Frodo was just a coincidence or perhaps the One Ring's power was strong enough to influence even a Nameless Thing. It may seem unlikely to some, but you never know.
I imagined the "Nameless things older than Sauron" to be something of the unmentionable horrors made by Morgoth at Utumno, who technically predated 'Sauron' as he is named.
Quite possibly. I think even if these things Gandalf was talking about aren't them, that Nameless Horrors of Utumno would still be around somewhere or at least existed at one point. Morgoth had creatures there before Orcs were around. It's cool to imagine what kind of dark things he had hidden.
In terms of the Mouth using the name Sauron to refer to his master, I always took this as somewhat of a jab at his enemies. As if to say "I will play the role you have given me, and you will worship me for it." If your enemies call you the abhorred, and you can still dominate them under that very name, then they are truly beaten, and you are truly their master
@@firmak2 that is exactly sauron's problem. He can't understand that his enemies will never quit if they can still say no. It's why he resorts to flat out genocide
or he admits, that his master, Sauron is greatly abhorred, and the statement is true, the free people abhor him, but their purpose for it is true aswell
I've been waiting for this video, the nameless things are very interesting to me because they are very elusive and mysterious which gives them this very foreboding feeling when they are mentioned. It gives me a similar feeling to Ungoliant
You're in luck then because she makes an appearance here. Couldn't resist mentioning her. I hope to have a few videos dedicated to her in the future though :)
its so vague it feels real to our own world, that's why its scary and speaking about it carries a cretin charge. Tolkien wasn't making stories up he was documenting theological processes explored for thousands of years by multiple faiths across human history but framed within a universe separate and disconnected from our own so that everyone who hears his tale wont be distracted by the real world and pre established perception about issues he explores in his writings. I also find his account about creation just as devinly inspired as anything in our world a religion has based its beliefs on so detailed. If tolkein existed 5000 years ago they would have called him a profit and used his stories for our real world faith. Also IF good and evil are things that exist in our own world than we also to have nameless things. As absolute evil and absolute good are both final ends of a spectrum with balance in the middle creating "chaos" (the_automation_of_necessary_movements_back_to_equilibrium) getting nearer to either end of that spectrum would theoretically be outside the bounds of human perception since the absolute end of that spectrum encompasses all good and all evil in existence and beyond what we know. and since these points outside our perception logical exist than there are nameless things of evil that exist as well as good. or maybe there are more than 1 pair of paradoxical forces orbiting eachother with an equilibrium of balance maintained at the center; creating nameless things of any possible quality that can exist from both ends from good to evil, hot to cold, electricity to ground, most to least, left to right, black to white, everything
People wanted me to talk about the 'Nameless Things' and I decided to put it all in one video. I had written some posts between 2017 - 2020 on other sites about them, and used these to answer more than one question about them here. Hopefully, 17 minutes of "we don't know" was enjoyable! I don't know if there's anything else that can be said about them. Correction - 12:40 - Thanks to James M for pointing out that I said the Ringwraiths attacked the door in Bree instead of Crickhollow. Made a mistake in the script by confusing myself with the Aragorn and Barliman part directly after that quote!
I just wanted to say I’m impressed with how high quality your videos are there superior to many RU-vidrs with more subscribers videos keep up the good work
@@Matli1804 Thanks a lot! I think the quality has improved. I am hoping to invest in a better mic and maybe focus more on the sound editing part cause I think that can be improved too.
I think the one thing I’d have mentioned is that these things do represent a real conundrum in the Legendarium. They really don’t fit. If they’re older than Melkor, how can they be horrifying and evil prior to Melkor’s dissonance? Did his dissonance help shape them, and give them their unspeakable forms, even if their original existence predated him? Did Eru make them that way, since no life exists without Eru? He at least allowed their existence.
@@muddlewait8844 my guess is that they were so problematic to settle on its own existence on a rational way without having to change actually a lot of his lore, that Tolkien just barely used them and refused to reacknowledge their existence as typos or mistakes on building up his work. They pretty much are a random thing latter forgotten to being used ever as happened with the Giants and the Wereworms references in the Hobbit. The trouble is that they EXISTED in his work - and the best work of all - and that well... the Tolkien state have to build up some interpretation about it eventually because... they never guessed upcoming this theme to became a main-thing over time, neither how Lovecraft´s influence on literary audience will rise on the same level as his work.
Steven, thank you for the detail you put into doing this video on the Nameless Things. This is one of your best videos. I had goose bumps when you read certain passages and explained the horrifying nature of things that people have never seen, but know are evil. Our imagination can make the horror even worse than it actually is. This is absolutely a must watch video for Tolkien lore buffs.
Glad you enjoyed it. I know you weren't expecting much when I announced this was the topic of the next video. Tried to make it interesting despite us not knowing much. Got carried away, but I think answering a few questions about them in one video was comprehensive enough!
@@TheRedBook Guilty as charged. I did think it would be a very short video with nothing new to report, but you took it in a very creative direction that had us following your train of thought in a very clear systematic way. Well done.
@@Enerdhil I think if I went basically with what the text says, it would have been as short as my Mewlips video but it was a chance to be comprehensive. It now means if someone asks anything about them, I just send over that link :D
The fact that there are things far more ancient, mysterious and dangerous than even Sauron itself ALIVE by the Third Era, and even HIM doesn't know them all is beyond haunting.
I believe the nameless things are a byproduct of Melkor’s songs of discourse that intertwined with the Ainulindalë. Just like how arda is a product of all of the ainur singing together and creating a world.
I really forgot about the Nameless things, older than Sauron. I don’t think even Tolkien knew. It was part of the fantasy and mystery. What is not said is just as important as what is plainly laid out. Thank you for this analysis!
Thank you :) and yes it's refreshing to read someone accept that there are things Tolkien didn't even though about the world he made - that's what makes these things so interesting. Sometimes the answer is "We just don't know".
I think that, given what I know, the origins of those things is found at the very start of Silmarilion. Now, I might be wrong, but it seems to me that those nameless things are actually the manifestations of Melkor's darker thoughts, before and during the creation of Arda. His thoughts and themes within the song, acting as a gravitational point for darkness. We know that he marred Arda beyond repair during the song. His music gave birth to those cosmic horrors deep beneath the surface of the world. Ah, but that would mean that he created life, even terrible like that, but still life - which goes against the lore - right? I don't think so, because as I understood it, Valar did not create Arda, Eru Iluvatar did - Valar were just the conduit through song, like a lens, that through the orderly song (with a theme predetermined) should focus the immense power of Eru's creation. But Melkors dark thoughts, like an impure crystal that focuses a powerful laser, scattered and perverted those "creation beams" and that's how those nameless things in the foundation of Arda came to be. And that's why Sauron knows them not. Probably Melkor himself was not aware of all of them. They were the results of chaotic and later evil nature of thoughts of Melkor, not a planned thing. And they are just one of the ways that Arda was corrupted and why it was beyond repair. Because the corruption's source was not that of Valar, but came from Eru himself so no one else but him could fix it. And to fix it, he would need to destroy Arda entirely. Which is where the end battle comes in, the destruction of corruption AND the "faulty lens" that messed up the creation in the first place, Melkor himself. All that is why I think there is such mystery around those creatures and why even Sauron and Istari don't know about all of them, except that they exist in some number, somewhere. Because it goes back to the very supreme creator himself and the first "moments" of Valar life.
Actually, Yavanna created all the natural Flora and Fauna of Middle Earth. Melkor supposedly has all the powers of the other Valar, so he should be able to create his own line of evil Fauna.
During the song he was corrupting some of which was being created. He never could create life. When he went to Arda he continued to corrupt that which was created from the song, most famously producing orcs and dragons. It important to remember that the greater spirits are not omniscient. They have some limited capacity to perceive some things at a distance, but they are mostly limited to sensing as mortals do. The disharmony he crafted into the song would manifest in Arda. He would not know where, so he would not have collected all the evils and bent them to his will.
another interesting point is how they're "eating" existence itself underneath the earth - and given that fact, if left nameless and uncontested will go on to swallow reality entirely and as a result will bring about the predetermined daggor daggorath - who knows maybe melkor would've had to work with the others just to stop his own discord from destroying reality and himself with it - its like crux of fate built into existence and the narrative of the music itself, I love the depth tolkein put into his worlds and how you can set things into motion that become bigger than any part of the whole (even illuvatar himself) - speaking of illuvatar, he just sorta "lul'd" and was like "yeah bro do it lol" he literally seen the whole thing play out and egged them on lol - its like watching a kid touch a red hot element and laughing when they finally learn their lesson lol
@Donald Martin The Nameless Things had ample time while Melkor/Morgoth was in Middle Earth to serve him yet they didn't. I doubt they will come out of their hiding places until the Dagor Dagorath.
@Donald Martin That's exactly the point - they are vestiges of corruption from the dawn of creation. They are just chaos and malice given form, they don't have an agenda thus they are not antagonists. They are just munching away deep under the surface. Like the Watcher, he is a problem when he shows up... but he is not an antagonist. And that's their point.
What I like to think about is how much it would disturb and horrify the Valar if a mortal was chosen as a champion of the nameless things below the deepest depths, the implication being that they're starting to get involved with the world above, and considering Ungoliant was just one of such nameless beings that was so terrifying even Morgoth was afraid of its anger, a champion, who appears mortal, especially if it was seemingly one of their own creations, would throw everything the Valar believed about non-involvement into the wind. Something worse than anything they've ever seen might be festering without their knowledge, and whatever that thing below the darkest depths is, its waking up and choosing beings to represent its will, or perhaps, these beings whom were thought to be chosen, were never supposed to exist in the first place, and were born chosen. It would be haunting and terrifying, especially if they had a similar effect to the one ring where they strongly influence the powerful and perceptive, but instead of effecting them with greed and want for power, its instead just an overwhelming fear.
Ace content once again. I've always thought that Melkor's discord in the creation created the image of the nameless things that came into the world when Eru spoke the word so I'm in agreement. Sauron did not know them but Melkor must have been at the very least aware of them since they're an image of his imagination. I also wonder if the dragons were originally one of those creatures, since they don't seem to have any direct counterparts (elves > orcs/ents > trolls) and it's stated that Glaurung was somewhat of a prototype to the black, wingless and all, so dragons were obviously tempered with at the hand of Melkor in some way. Maybe they were originally a breed of reptiles (snakes come to mind) akin to Ungoliant's spider form. Speculative of course, who knows.
the coolest thing and also the most troublesome thing about the Nameless Things is that they´re so VAGUE that could be everything to imagine and being furtherly creative beyond of Tolkien´s lore restrictions of canon and at the same time, we can´t be certain either for made it properly a canon alone beyond what it´s barely stated on them, So everything could be BOTH RIGHT AND WRONG AT THE SAME time on them.
@@lhadzyan7300 Yes, Tolkien stated that sometimes the best or most interesting answer is no answer at all, as is the case with the nameless ones or Tom Bombadil.
@@lilleskutt5467 yeah well that was which kept his lore still active pretty much as Lovecraft did too. Sadly it seems none realize on how much a lot could be developed after these free-passes to expand the universe furtherly and just kept all shelved as a canon.
After many years of researching and learning everything of Tolkiens world. I don't believe Morgoth and Sauron not knowing these "shrines of secret gods". Or they were never part of the story. Evil started in creation because of Morgoth. These unknown Monsters were corruptions that hated Morgoth and would not serve him. "Since all Evil hates they hated him too."
@@redjirachi1 I think lovecration 'beings' is stupid. Just myths of oversized jellyfishes and squids from the time of Sailors and Pirates. Take legend of mermaids, those are just marine mammals that sailors mistook for females on their long odyssey.
I like to think that the Nameless Things (and possibly Tom Bombadil as well) were an unintended result of the disharmony of the Music of the Ainur. In music, different pitches can blend together and result in the sound waves creating additional frequencies as well. For example, five individuals singing in harmony can lead to six or seven frequencies actually being heard. It's possible that the Nameless Things and any other unexplained aspects of Arda came into existence as a result of not the discordant frequencies of Melkor and the Ainur that sang with him, but of the frequencies that were not planned by any of the Ainur.
Literally only just found this channel; and I can already tell I'll enjoy the content as much as The Broken Sword, Men of the West, and Nerd of the Rings, so I immediately subscribed.
That's a very good video. I wondered about any possible Lovecraftian influence on Tolkien, or whether, like Ungoliant, the Nameless Things belied the universal creative dominion of Eru.
Thanks, Jeffrey. It's certainly a good way for me to combine two different writers I enjoy - without stating outright that one was an influence on the other directly!
In my mind, Eru Ilúvitar is a force of order who was able to form the infinite chaos, a state of proto/quasi-existence containing all possible realities, mindlessly trying and failing to assert themselves over eachother, by imposing his unique will, his sentient thought unto this free-for-all, deciding what will be and what will not. The chaos that borders his creation from all sides might contain other entities that never had a true, physical form or ego, but were granted these when drifting within reach of Eru Ilúvitar's light (thus solving the paradox of being older than Eru's oldest creations and by their terrible nature unlikely to be of his make), and even though he might have prefered they didn't, it is by definition that chaos will not innately conform to anyone or anything. Therefore, my head canon is that the Nameless Things don't have names, because he didn't name them, rather they are abominations, alien things from beyond, birthed into his world at the furthest edges and the darkest depths of creation, the furthest you can go without leaving Eru's light, where chaos touches order. *Edit* After watching the video I find it interesting how similar my own theory was to yours :)
Nameless gods more old than Morgoth. This is just perplexing and so enticing I NEED to know what Tolkien had in mind when describing these things and how this could possibly work within Ea and his legendarium
Yet the story literally says He was there and created the Valar and Maiar,....... then proclaimed Melkor the absolute strongest 2nd to only God himself. So much so that he was able to influence multiple Valar and Maiar to sway his way. and won 2 out of 3, last one God winning and using his malice to show him that even his hatred is all within his design.
It is a classic trick by an author to keep you compelled and to keep themselves compelled in their own world. Once they are described they cannot be any better or more interesting than what he did already describe.
I think they have many similarities, and they may well have the same unknown origin. I do wonder though, was Tom the only 'good' version of the Nameless Things? If not why were the others not as involved with the world as he was? I lean towards them having different origins, if only because their seems to be many evil ancient things and only one good ancient being.
@@patrickobrian9669 In universe, well, suppose Eru's creation isn't the absolute beginning, and there was, in fact, something existing already? The valar wouldn't know, maybe Eru doesn't know either, eh?
Tolkien was aware of Lovecraft's work. Whether he actually took inspiration from his stuff, we'll never know, but it's all very neat to think there was this era of Lovecraft, Tolkien, and Howard all laying the groundwork for their mythologies.
Source for this? Tolkien seems to have been minly focused on thigns that were written centuries ago not some american pulp horror writer from what 50 years earlier?
@@DaDunge Well, Lovecraft died in 1937 and Howard in 1936. And the first edition of The Lord of the Rings dates back to 1954, although Tolkien started writing it some years prior dring WW II. They were contemporaries for quite a while. And Tolkien was aware of Howard's work. The presumable source of this knowledge would be "Weird Tales", a magazine that also published Lovecraft's stories at the time.
Outstanding Tolkien scholarship. I'm now committed to listening to your work during the night with my hifi turned up loud for the fullest dramatic effect. What a strange coincidence that I was only recently alerted to Lovecraft by an interesting reading which referenced him on BBC radio.
I think that you have answered the question about Tom Bombadill, Goldberry, and the River woman! And THAT is what Gandalf went to speak to Tom about before he left middle earth. (Tom only has names that have been given to him over the ages, like Iarwain BenAdar). However, I also believe that some of them are MEWLIPS.
One of my favorite speculations about the things in the Legendarium that seem contrary to the established cosmogony is the idea that they are remnants of previous iterations of creation, either purposefully or unintentionally placed in this reality by Eru.
Yes, but Melkor, who had the powers of Al the Valar, might have been able to see all the parts, and then he sought to destroy them as they were being made.
“The greatest emotion is fear, and the greatest fear of man is the fear of the unknown.” -H.P. Lovecraft. I’m paraphrasing, but that line is what comes to mind when I think of, read about, or hear about the Nameless Things.
It seems to me that these entities may have arisen as a result of the music being distorted by Melkor during the performance of the Music of the Ainur. Sauron's not recognizing them is entirely related to the development of their thoughts by understanding each other during the music. It is understandable that Sauron had no knowledge of these beings, as he could not understand this situation during the music.
Mystery is often way better, I remember as a kid watching the movie jeepers creepers, I thought it was terrifying until the bat wing pops out and you’re like “oh a demon case closed, no longer scary” lol.
Good example, I have used that one in conversation in the past as well. He's way scarier in the distance as some tall creature in a coat. Not scary when you see what is beneath...
Seriously, though, this explanation for the origin of the Nameless Things also works for Tom Bombadil. He would be one of those beings created in the song that was around before the Valar arrived, but in this case wasn't evil.
Another great video; always a fascinating topic and the theories behind where they came from. I think the mystery makes them so intriguing and leaves you wanting to know more because the description of them is more vague or the origin incomplete.
I absolutely love Tolkien's talent to create vivid images of creatures and characters without going into details of their appearance and origins. So much room for imagination! I have always thought that these "nameless things" originate in Eru. He is the sourse of the absolute form of life, so he may also be a source of some absolute form of death/destruction. Their presence in the depth of Arda is a sign of the fate of the world predefined by him.
It's a good theory. There's an interesting quote from HoMe, which ended up in Nature of Middle-earth as well about the Discord 'creating' life and I'm annoyed I didn't include it here or in my Orc video. I'll have to use it in a video soon though .
For me, the best explanation for the nameless things are Chaos. This fits into the Creation Myth given in the Music of the Ainur and Tolkien's Christian faith. But it is possible that these things are version of the denizens of Yggdrasill, such as the Norns (Fates) whose dictates not even the gods (Valar) could gainsay or Nidhogg, who gnaws at the roots of Yggdrasill. As such they can represent chaos, the "fly in the ointment" from Creation (Song of the Ainur), the unavoidable error that prevents the creation of any sort of perfect thing, even if the author is God (Eru Illuvatar).
I think a lot of people make a mistake in assuming that all of the Ainur are good, or at least were intended to be good, until corrupted by Melkor. Surely there were several of them that didn't really represent anything powerful, or representing darkness and hiding and slow consumption, but not necessarily evil. Some of the Ainur likely went into Arda to do essentially nothing but their own desires. Probably Bombadil is one of these, an Ainu representing mindless conservation. Maybe the nameless things are the opposite of that. Or maybe they are mindless beings created by Melkor to slowly search the interior of the world for the Flame Imperishable.
I have often considered this, nut I now have a further idea based upon your reading of Gandalf's words. It is obvious that His words about older things than orcs are intended to foreshadow his encounter with the Balrog. It is obvious that he is unaquainted with it. However, he states that he passed out of the world and both learned and was reminded of much of which he was unaware or had forgotten. Upon his return, it is obvious that in his vague description of these nameless horrors that he now knows what they are, where they are, and why they are, and this knowledge is terrible. Who would have such knowledge? Manwë and the Valar are excluded as Manwë knows and comprehends nothing of evil and Gandalf would never seek such knowledge of Morgoth. Thus we see Gandalf has at least some greater understanding of these things directly from Illuvitar himself. He is not given their names, for they remain nameless. However he now sees that they are primordial being more ancient than Sauron. Only from the deepest perversions of Morgoth's mind would such things exist, but as saith Illuvitar, nothing has been created but what it finds its origins in Illuvitar and his inexorable plans and will, and thus serve they his purposes. I do not doubt that for just a moment, as he occasionally does, Tolkien dabbales with primordial eldrich horror. It is unreasonable and untenable to assume that Tolkien knew nothing of horror as a genre as it has been a staple of western fiction since Edgar Allen Poe. Shelley, Stoker, and Lovecraft all were contributors, and doubtless an intellect like Tolkien would know of these works. Further, Beowulf among other legends and myths also have elements of such genre and this Tolkien would have known better than most. While I do feel that a Lovecraftian understanding of these monsters works best for the horror, especially as Lovecraft's horror lays in what you do not see and his vague yet lurid descriptions and places, I would dare to say that several elements likely played a role in his development of these monsters.
in other hand, the reference about these Lovecraftian-like pure true cosmic-horror beings, might still have a more classical mythological background on Tolkien´s ancient Western mythology references he used to build up his epic legendary fantastical original creative mythology literary work. These are the so called Primordial or Chtonic deities of Greek mythology as the Night (Nyx), the Outer Darkness Void (Erebus), the innermost Hell Underworld Core (Tartarus), the primordial Chaos, the Earth herself alone (Gaia/Gaea) as the birther of all, including monsters as Titans, Cyclops, Giants, Hecatonchires, the Mountains, Typhon, Echidna and the Furies. and the primordial Sea couple of Thalassa and Pontos. Most of them were pretty eerie wierd darker creatures. Into a more closer Nordic mythology, the Eddas involve polar hideous opposites of the world as Musphell got the Fire Giant Sutr, and the cold Underworld got the goddess Hella and his minions attempting to overthrown the Yggdrassil tree and well both Midgard and Asgard realms, gnawing on the roots, both the dragon Niddhogg and some furtherly wicked creepy worms too. Both the creatures of Hella´s domains and the darker Primordials, are very well linked as the Nameless Things inspiration even aside of proper Lovecraftian influences alone. (Lovecraft kinda acknowledged some cosmic horror elements about mythology indeed.)
Tolkien's beliefs probably make my theories unlikely but primordial beings exist in mythology the world over. I like the idea that they were creatures of the void similar to the Ainur of even Iluvatar but of much less power and that they came into the world as well. Of course that would mean that Iluvatar was not alone in the void and we know Tolkien set him up as the one god figure.
I guess that´s the reason why Tolkien didn´t push much into about the possibility on the Nameless Things true nature lore as they managed to be such oddities in their work that aren´t neither Melkor or Sauron´s work but also opposites of Eru Illuvatar and the Valar´s planning, so another mighty third party set against BOTH is being involved and so it was so much troublesome, because no matter if their role was marginal and kinda overpowered by Eru Illuvatar and/or Morgoth´s influence but still, they kinda were playing a furtherly eerie shadowy role in the background barely noticed, being somewhat very important at some very earlier time - even before the story of Eru Illuvatar creating the Ainur ever began, and which he managed to made a safer place for his own creation ideas, away from his foes influence, or well, so he thought did, but... they still did infected it throught Melkor´s corruption when wandering alone in the outer Dark Void surrounding the shapeless earlier Universe of Illuvatar before the Ainulindale performance - and they seem that will made a comeback ruining all once more as they might have done before, as opposites of Eru Illuvatar and mightier than him; they can´t destroy him as he is one of them but he is the ODDITY being the only Good One, and all the others are pure Dark Chaotic Wickedness which explain the nature of Morgoth and Ungoliant nature, and well the Nameless Things too as their true descendants
@@lhadzyan7300 Well Tolkien was trying to blend his love of mythology and old European paganism with his deep Catholicism. And even in your framing it's in opposition. The nameless things don't seem to exist in opposition to Eru or the Ainur. They certainly didn't mess with Gandalf. I almost see them more as just being. Like the world serpent of Norse mythology we wouldn't say that it existed in opposition to the Christian god. But you also do make a lot of really cool and interesting points that could absolutely make for an interesting backstory.
@@Caleb_Evans32 yeah sure, the Nameless Things could have a more random-accidental origin nature since the Ainulinade happening, but not aside of Eru´s power on his own, just being random mistakes between the clash of the original Ainur song and Melkors alternative motifs. But well, it still didn´t make sense on how Gandalf react after all, as he was suddenly realizing that make a huge mistake of mentioning the creatures existence in all, and just leaving all in shroud make it worst if he hadn´t mentioned in all. Tolkien made a mistake on writting about them that´s all, and used Gandalf to leave faster out of the theme, but... pretty plain stupid messy lazy move anyways.
@@lhadzyan7300 Tolkien was a much better writer than that. He left many mysteries in his works - not everythjng needs an explanation. I think saying Tolkien made a miatake is a horrible take.
I'm glad Tolkien left it as a mystery...as he did other things. That's the greatest part. There are things every author doesn't explain, for if they over-explain things it can ruin the magic...example, people being let down over midi-chlorians (I'm not trying to start a fight over the Prequels...I'm just saying that it is an example.....or like Highlander 2 when we all found out they were aliens...it sorta ruined it).
Exactly my thoughts. I don't like everything being neatly placed in its tidy little section with a label on it. Mysterious don't always need to be explained. We don't know who the Witch-king is, for example, and explaining away his origin in a convoluted way isn't better than the mystery.
Bombadil had boundaries but within them(near them?) Frodo was able to call to him using that song, the only thing 'magical' about its lyrics was Bombadil's name but it somehow reached him & he came to them promptly. That's similar evidence of use of a name reaching across distance to call to an ancient being. If naming the good can push back the dark we might assume the reverse to be true
I *really* enjoy the introspective, almost melancholy tone of you work. As well as the off-kilt angle from which you often approach Tolkien's Legendarium. That being said, I would like to suggest a topic for your consideration. The destruction of Beleriand in the aftermath of the War of Wrath. You alluded to this in your 'Ancalagon' video. The war lasted around 50 years and some time passed after the defeat of Morgoth, as the armies of the West were still in Endor and while the Eldar and the Edain were assembling to move overseas. Yet, we are told that the whole western end of Middle-Earth fell apart and sank beneath the waves some time afterwards. I always found that... questionable. I'm curious to hear your take about this.
He had it on him and used it in his corruption. They never knew about the One Ring. When Numenor fell, Sauron carried it back as a spirit on a dark wind.
Eru: 'I have created all that is, the world and that which is in it.' Varda: 'What tha Udûn is that thing?' _gestures to Tom Bombadil_ Eru: 'Uh,well...No clue, really...'
Gandalf has many secrets on his acting alone, but the more probably issue why he didn´t want to talk more on the Nameless Things is that they might pose another threat for a more distant future, and that he needs to acknowledge to work first against the more known foes as Sauron, Saruman or the Balrog, whereas leaving the Nameless Things for later as it could be TOO MUCH overwhelming for their group to know they need to care about some furtherly unknown foes which might pose on their own, some threathening that can´t be either avoided or overcomed so immediatly. Henceforth that´s why he chooses to remain silent and don´t involve about them, however as Gandalf is a very caring character about Middle Earth´s fate, I don´t think he should have left alone another foe he find out while fighting the more usual ones in his mission, so my guess on what he choose to do, involves the other very mysterious yet certainly positive character of Tom Bombadill, as what he went to talk about after leaving Frodo in the Shire back. Maybe he went to request him to use his powers against these creatures and/or to find back Radagast´s aid lost in the wilderness early on the story, for suport on that.
Older than Sauron might mean literally that: before the name of Sauron, before the fallen maia swore allegiance to Morgoth and became the being Sauron.
I always interpreted the line "older than Sauron" as "before Sauron became Sauron". During the Music he was still Mairon, a maia of Aulë. Only later Mairon became Sauron. And I think the same could apply to Morgoth. During the music he was still Melkor. As Melkor, he could change his shape, as Morgoth he could not, for example. Both Sauron and Morgoth went through substancial change due to their evil deeds.
The Watcher in the water is reported to be a female dragon dropped into the lake by one of the large passing flying male dragons. This was referenced in one of the books by Gandalf when he was answering a few questions about the nature of dragons and why all dragons are male. He came across the eyewitness account while doing his research into the one ring lore. The female dragons are speculated/reputed to be squid/octopus cephalopod styed creatures who are hidden lurking in dark waters and dispersed by the flying male dragons. Love your vids! Much Luvz for all! ❤
@@TheRedBook Not at all, exponential growth my friend. Quite sure you where in the low to mid thousands only last week. Low balling that to +300% in one week. Starting at 5k today assuming constant growth gives 405k in four more weeks 🧐
Seriously though, I’m betting on 12k just by accumulated momentum. More if the algorithm gives you another lucky break. Quality content, people are just starting to find out.
Haha 405k 😅 maybe if I had the momentum of Nerd of the Rings who recently hit 400k. As long as more people watch and like the content, I'm happy enough!
Eerie and interesting video...i wonder what inspired Tolkien to create these "nameless things" in his writing..they could be symbolic for something. And yes the mystery behind the way they look is as uncertain as their nameless names and left to our imagination wich i think is brillant.
I like the idea that anyone who encounters these things tell us all "let them remain nameless" even youtubers lol Makes it feel as though there are some unknowable horrors in middle earth so great, anyone who HAS seen them, even a direct descendant of the ainur, is so shaken to the core, they can only repeat the phrase "let them remain nameless" with wild terror in their eyes.. its tolkiens version of "abandon all hope ye who enter here"..
If only Tolkien finished Silmarillon and his possible other stories, we might know where all these unknown creatures came from... I'm suspecting Eru Illuvitar had known something else akin to him 'might' existed out there
My impression was that these things came from the void outside of Ea, and have existed before the illuvatar created the valar, and were just drawn toward the world. Just assumed the got into the deep places because the world was still raw and changing, plus the valar vs morgoth changing it more ontop of that. If illuvatar could exist, it's not too big of a stretch that other being could have existed before the world. too.
Exactly. Isn't it written in the Silmarillion that Morgoth spent time alone in the void? I always thought that Ungoliant came upon him during his time alone in the void beyond Arda and he brought her back with him. I could be wrong though as its been a while since i read the book
I would love to know if Gandalf and the balrog fought together against the nameless things or if it was more of an all vs all Szenario. I mean he mentioned he fought from the deepest point through the highest point of the mountain. So at some point I’m sure they got attacked from the horrors beneath the earth. I think that’s a mystery never solved.
The best thing in all of Norse mythology is that Niddhoggr has a Squirrel who basically spends his time sending 'Fuck you" messages to the Eagle at the top from Niddhoggr.
High quality video and argument. I agree that it's best to say Tolkien was influenced by ancient myth rather than Lovecraft, who in his own "Supernatural Horror in Literature" makes multiple references to the irrational horror of the mystical northern European mind (paraphrasing to unite several quotes; read if you think I'm misrepresenting). Lovecraft's arguments don't hold up for my assessment of ancient culture generally, but they show that a common influence could have produced similar creatures and aesthetic values. That being said, I think the word "weird" would have been a better reference point for the discussion than "Lovecraftian." This dispels the misconception of Lovecraft's influence while using a term that Lovecraft used in "Notes on Writing Weird Fiction," and that still has currency in relevant literary circles. Finally, we can expand the weird in Tolkien to include Tom Bombadil and broaden our conception of weird to include things that evoke a positive sense of awe rather than horror.
It's possible that this nameless things are products of the Music of the Ainur: "(...) and the music and the echoe of the Music went out into the Void, and it was not void". In the history of middle earth - home: "OUT OF THE DISCORDS OF THE MUSIC - SC. NOT DIRECTLY OUT OF EITHER OF THE THEMES, ERU'S OR MELKOR'S, BUT OF THEIR DISSONANCE WITH REGARD ONE TO ANOTHER - EVIL THINGS APPEARED IN ARDA, WHICH DID NOT DESCEND FROM ANY DIRECT PLAN OR VISION OF MELKOR: THEY WERE NOT 'HIS CHILDREN'; AND THEREFORE, SINCE ALL EVIL HATES, HATED HIM TOO. THE PROGENITURE OF THINGS WAS CORRUPTED". Or, the Void before the creation was a another dimension filled with lovecraftian gods/monsters older than Ainur. Another quote from the comments of Cristopher Tolkien about the primordial night/void before the creation: "MÓRU- GL IN A LATER ADDITION GIVES MURU A NAME OF THE PRIMEVAL NIGHT PERSONIFIED AS GWERLUM OR GUNGLIONT, HENCE MY READING IN THE TEXT MÓRU RATHER THAN MORN. AMONG THE ORIGINAL ENTRIES IN GL IS MÚRI, DARKNESS, NIGHT". And, what if Melkor was "corrupted" when he "walked" in the void before the music because of this primeval darkness? And what if this primeval darkness was another being older than ainur and filled with this nameless beings?
What if they pre-existed in the void, and found a way to crawl into the dimension of physical reality via Melkor’s discord as a transitional ‘Window’ to the world. And sought out the deepest darkest places for those places most resemble from whence they came.
I imagine they're probably something similar to the Leviathan and Behemoth in the Bible, primordial beings that represent chaos and disorder which God had to slay in order to make the universe ordered.
@@DaDunge Tolkien wasn't really aware of Lovecraft outside of possibly reading " The Doom That Came to Sarnath" in an anthology in 1964 (which he didn't really like). He did enjoy Lord Dunsay, who was an influence on Lovecraft, and enjoyed Robert E. Howard's "Conan" stories, who was in Lovecraft's circle.
The Watcher targeting the ring seems like great evidence that it isn’t a nameless thing from before Sauron, creatures from before Sauron seem like they would not seek his ring or be drawn to it. The comparison to Tom Bombadil was brilliant, I never thought of that connection before!
Yes, I just imagine them not seeking out personal power. They repeat the same gnawing over and over, basically being above (or at least being different from) the motives of Dark Lords. Just my thought on it and I wouldn't say it was Tolkien's intention or anything.
Has anyone but me considered that The Misty Mountains were made by Melkor long after the music of creation? They were specifically made as an obstacle to impede the Elves migration Westward into Beleriand and the Undyingly Lands beyond. He may have called upon many fell creatures to assist him, and when the work was finished they retreated to the depths to they created for themselves in the foundations of the mountains.
