Really great interview. Re: Unpaid Internships - I used to work with the university in the town I lived in and would take on interns for a semester at a time and instead of paying them they would get course credit through the school. After the semester ended, if we agreed to continue the working relationship I would pay them out of pocket. If me, an independent illustrator, could figure out a way to pay a student, I don't understand how a company...with ACTUAL budgets... can't figure out how to pay their interns. It really grinds my gears.
Thanks for having me! It’s always great to have the chance to hash this stuff out and think deeply about big questions. Happy to be a friend of the pod 😌
18:56 Art industry is going through major upheaval; artists, of course, get slapped in the face harder than most. Sad reality is that artists are the foundation of the art industry but receive the least respect in the industry. In other words, artists, like many workers, are seen by management as expendable. Accepting this reality is empowering. Remember, the "art industry" is a business. Artists should seriously consider going all-in on developing themselves as, you guessed it, a business. Doing so means rethinking what it means to be an artist: 1) yes, create that art, but 2) develop marketing and business skills to maximize your artistic earning potential. Being an employee is what our culture emphasizes when it comes to earning income; however, as we know, the art industry is "collapsing." Stable art jobs may become unicorns. Take back control. Develop art skills, for sure. But also build entrepreneurial skills. Times are changing, so should artists. Adapt. Grow. Then adapt some more. Then... 💪
But eventually many artists are going to be working independently in a field that's already super saturated and competitive. Then they're just left with the same problem, not being able to find work or make enough income. But the problem isn't just with art, it's happening with everything because everything has become about money. The way the system determines/governs "work" and "education" is the problem. People should be freely educated and energy should be focused to find real solutions to improve life. Clean the inside of the cup first and then the outside also will be clean. -Everyone can have what they need. -Greed and corruption is the problem, not the lack of resources or people willing to work. -No one should be a slave or feel helpless Giants have taken over the land and they have turned it into a den of thieves; using the things that people need against them. They try to make a profit on anything they can; they create nets and draw people in with their hooks. Greed and hypocrisy. Why does justice cost so much money? Why does education cost so much money? Why does healthcare cost so much money? Why does the cost to live cost so much money? Why do certain positions pay so much money? Because money is being exalted over life, and many in positions of power want to stay at the top. It profits the government/big companies/schools if people 'need' money, so many of them don't want things to change or they say it can't change. We need to work for true bread. Food that doesn't spoil. Truth/God's Word. Putting life over money, not money over life. The greater is supposed to serve the lesser. Those in high positions who need to serve instead of profiting off of the public and making themselves wealthy. They need to stop neglecting those who are at the bottom, and remove the heavy burdens from people that they themselves cannot carry. Seek first the Kingdom of God: Truth and justice/righteousness What is more important? The gift/money on the alter or the alter which makes the gift/money sacred? 'The Battle Is The Lord's'
Solid facts. This realization took me some time but it was the wake up I needed to recognize that having a full time art career was not for me. The business side of things sucked out all the fun for me, especially due to my own personal limitation because of where I live and the overall operation costs. I needed financial security and where I am in my life I can not provide that for myself. Thankfully through a very good friend I got me a graphic designing job with an employer who is THE BEST. She's so kind and patient and appreciates the work I do for her and I am so grateful for my friend and for my employer. Now I'm getting back into making art for myself, I got horrendous burn out worrying about my art career but now that I don't have to be in that constant anxiety I can go back to enjoying art as a hobby with the possibility that maybe in the future, if I'm feeling up to it, I can have an Illustration career on the side.
Excited to hear this conversation. It seems that the professional artists I talk to or hear in interviews are acutely aware of the threat of AI, and deeply bothered by it. However, the younger aspiring artists appear so idealistic about art and its future that they just dismiss the idea that AI could ever replace them. As if AI has been struggling for a century to do so and has consistently failed, when in fact it wasn't even on the rader a year ago and it is already infringing heavily on art and artists.
I think the younger artists can see that AI art is not going to be sustainable long-term. They may have a better understanding of the technology and know that it really isn't going to progress much beyond this point without another significant jump in technology that will likely not happen for quite some time. But the professionals are also right to be concerned. They can see that the companies in charge are investing in AI, and whether it's a success or a flop doesn't matter, people's livlihoods are going to be upended, at least until the companies come to the same conclusion most of us can already plainly see.
@@moth2968 I can't imagine how newer artists understand tech so much better if they think AI won't "progress much beyond this point" any time soon. AI art wasn't even a thing a year ago and now you have companies like WaCom(!) using it in ads, Wizards of the Coast being fooled by it, and a Japanese writer Rootport has already created a 100-page manga entirely illustrated by MidJourney that comes with a "10-page guide on how to create AI-generated manga." This is exactly what I'm saying about the laissez faire attitude towards what is already happening. I'm not saying every artist should be wringing their hands about it every minute while sitting in a pool of their own tears, because frankly I don't think it can be stopped. The assumption that artists can just recognize AI when they see it and call it out in an effort to shame companies is also naïve. Soon even the most experienced artists will have trouble discerning AI from digital art and even organically drawn work, and companies are going to embrace AI slowly, timidly, but progressively until it just becomes standard practice. I don't think you have to know anything about tech to see that...instead you only need to understand human nature.
I feel like something I’m already starting to see is AI generation being associated with cheapness - scams, even. Re: the Willy Wonka knockoff Glasgow event, chatgpt “books” flooding the online market. It’ll screw up job opportunities for sure. But I don’t believe the people that think Ai will be considered superior to human artists in any way in the future. And honestly, that gives me some kind of hope: The only people seriously using and selling ai generated content are lazy hustlers and out of touch companies. Which doesn’t negate its impact, of course. But I do not think Ai generation is a tool that screams “I have money and status and Im definitely not too lazy to commission or write my own content” so frankly I don’t see it lasting all that long
I think artists of all skill levels have more of a chance to make it as a professional artist than ever before. The Art Industry wants the best of the best, and if AI can mimic the best, they'll go with AI. But real humans who appreciate art actually want to support artists, and highly technical skills are not the only way to appeal to an art buyer. Selling directly to people is fast becoming the most reliable way to make income as an artist. And thankfully anyone can start doing that, you don't have to meet some nebulous industry standard to do so.
Thank you! Yeah art school does suck. I want with Academy of Art University in San Francisco. Before they got in trouble. I had one teacher that heaped nothing but praise on the prettiest girl in class. And for whatever reason, all he told me was what was wrong with my work. Constructive criticism is supposed to be just that. This works, that doesn't, try this next time. The prettiest girl got things like "Oh this is so great! I'm so proud of you!." So at the end of the year he asked us to review his class to improve it for the next year. I voiced my problem and uploaded a file as evidence when he pushed back. I'd gone back and made copies of all his comments he posted on our work. I think I got him in trouble.
Such a great interview! Not only art industry is collapsing, the same is in IT. A lot of layoffs and a ton of very skilled people that are ready to work for food. And of course AI is also a very big concern for many people.
I remember meeting Devin at Lightbox in Pasadena. She is someone that I think doesn't realize how amazing she is at what she does. Thank you, Devin, for your advice for drawing dragons! I've been studying your work for the shape language you use and it is paying off!
I went to the same high school as Devin, and I have always been inspired by her many little watercolor sketches and doodles I would find in the art class. It is so cool to hear her thoughts during such a paradigm shift. (I can also second that people would always ask about that unfinished painting!)
Devin is a hero to all of us small artists out there, still learning and living off the private commissions on da, furaffinity etc. thank you so much for the interview! You both are one of my favorites so seeing you together talk about art stuff is a huge treat ❤
Super insightful to see both of your experience with navigating the industry and with college! I was surprised to hear you went back for a masters - it's exactly what I'm going to be doing this upcoming fall (just got accepted today)- been on and off thinking about launching an online shop and building that online presence, but that hasn't been too fruitful. Would love to hear more about your journey and any advice you have for anyone following in your footsteps! :D
Incredible convo ! I’m starting to make RU-vid shorts about art and I’m realizing how each platform is so different. And how nebulous the “art industry” is.
It was amazing to hear an artist I've idolized as a faceless monument talk, to see and hear a real person. All the topics you both covered were super interesting. It wasn't the intention of this video but it got me thinking and I realized how social media has kind of numbed me in a toxic way when it comes to looking at art. I see so much world class illustration nonstop every day that some part of my brain has decided "that's nothing special", which in turn makes what I am capable of feel even more underwhelming by comparison. But work of that high quality is the product not just of individual effort, but years of collaboration and education with other masters of the craft, and expecting it from myself out of the ether is honestly just naive. Artists who have reached those levels have so many experiences I want to have someday, too. I'm really grateful to you for making this conversation accessible!
Liked because you're still not a famous youtuber. I'm not yet done with the video but this has been an interesting interview so far! I'm not even in the art industry, professionally, but I am also experiencing the layoff arch of life in the tech industry, despite having been a top performer for years in the company. I can see some similarities with not having a personal portfolio when you work for a studio and what happened to me in the tech industry... We also can't talk much about what we did technically for a company, so if we don't have stuff to show, finding new opportunities is challenging.
@@AnotherPersonStoppingBy For sure. At least I hope the artists aren't getting the analogous of the difficult tech interview where they ask you about concepts you'll never use in the job you're applying for 😆
Dustin! You popped up on my FYP, but it's Wolf from NHIA. Awesome to see your progress. Also INSANE how the school just dissolved, I dropped out because I didn't feel like I was learning anything. I had no idea there was a case open against the school. I've been doing art full time for the past 7 years and have been lucky enough to build a huge online following, and I can say that despite present difficulties I think this is the strongest time to become an artist online. There is so much potential for growth on multiple platforms, to the point where there's just not enough quality work for people to consume. The industry itself is a bloated monster, but it's the same across the board. The AAA gaming industry is having the same issue, where corperate jobs are dissolving, but indie projects are having a huge renaissance. I think teaching young artists how to establish themselves as legitimate businesses will really invigorate the type of work we're seeing across the board. Either way good luck with everything! Good to see you continuing the path.
Great to hear your doing well! I totally agree, the paths available for independent artists are multiplying, I think we are gonna be seeing a lot of growing pains from more traditional industry work for a while in contrast. Learning how to pivot I think is key
It not just the art industry either, it's lots of industries right now. I work in tech, web development (very underpaid), and we've had an unofficial hiring freeze for a while and mass layoffs of different departments.
This was a really great interview, thank you! ❤️ I wrote out a really long comment, but the short version is: I just this last Wednesday submitted my final project for my concept art degree. I'm a mature student so perhaps a little more pessimistic than my coursemates. As a brand new graduate, in a world where all the concept artists are out of work, where my degree didn't prepare me correctly for even the state the industry was when I was starting, never mind now that it's collapsing - fuck this shit. I'm going to be focusing my energy on conventions, making prints, stickers etc. and branding for the time being, but I am bummed out. This wasn't the plan. I didn't expect that if I wanted to work at studios I'd have to beg and prey for work in unpaid internships. I thought I'd be competing with other graduates for junior positions, not people who'd been in the industry for 5+ years who'd just been laid off with their entire portfolios locked behind NDAs.
thank you so much for having this discussion with Devin! it was so insightful and inspiring despite the circumstances, both of your experiences resonated with my current journey as well and i'm hopeful with what the future has to offer artists in these trying times. Been a big fan of Devin's, and i hope you know that im forever grateful for the content you're putting out for us 🫶
5:34 on the topic of art tests I had a job listing recently that reached out to me (and others) and asked for an 'art test' and on their admission they wanted participants to spend at least 22 hours on it... and that was so that they could choose who got interviewed for a first round x_x needless to say i did not do it lol
Great interview! I feel the same, I want to do everything! Nice to hear the plan Devin has in doing each thing one at a time super focused, but you don't have to give up on things - still knowing that each things a whole new thing you have to learn.
this was a really cool interview/podcast/discussion thing(?), lol.😂 I enjoyed it a lot for real! i haven't subscribed yet either so I took a moment to do that too.☺ I've seen some of your other videos too and I gotta say I really appreciate your input and transparency on everything. it's been really refreshing and I like your calm demeanour too. I'm so glad you teach and encourage other artists to look at things from a business viewpoint because that is so crucial if they wanna make a full time living out of it! I can't stress this enough! 1) society needs to appreciate art more and 2) know business, sales and marketing techniques because otherwise those big studios(among other things) will ruthlessly take advantage of artists! I would love to hear another podcast(?) interview talking about the collapse of the art industry right now and looking out for predatory animation studios and it seems like Devin is a perfect fit! you two were really great to listen to.🥰
There was a huge boom in animation and VFX when all the streaming platforms came online and sadly that bubble is bursting. Also financially everyone's wallets are a lot lighter and art is sadly the first to get the cut as Marketing and Production budgets get throttled.
21:15 It's not just large corporations- I was working for a really small studio that stressed how we were all a 'family' and were 'in this together,' but even as they were becoming more successful, when pre-produciton design tapered off slightly (which is what I was doing), instead of working out perhaps using me for marketiing materials etc, I was viewed as a one-trick pony and dropped like I was hot. Never be fooled by a company no matter what the size- be cordial but never ever give them the benefit of the doubt or provide work that won't be explicitly compensated for. It really is like those mob movies, where right before the guy "whacks" his best friend he says, "It's just business, nothing personal."
Thank you so much for this video, it was really eye opening and helpful to listen to you two speak about the state of the industry and social media strategies. I'm both a 3D artist and a small business owner who's trying to put some wind in their sails, but never quite succeeded at creating enough momentum for lift off. What you both said made me realize I have been working harder instead of smarter and that I need to re-evaluate my approach to social media and my portfolio pieces, both 2D and 3D. Sometimes, you want something so badly that you get lost in the process of getting there, but it's never too late to get back on track and your video helped give me a sense of direction and what I should be prioritizing first and foremost. Again, thanks for the video, please keep them coming! ღゝ◡╹)ノ♡
Great interview! I almost fell out of my chair when he said he paid $60k on his loans last year and it’s still several hundred thousand? Was he joking? Does it include school other than art? My first career was in law & I had around $120k which I paid off fairly quickly. I don’t rec anyone take out education loans unless you’re going into a field where you get a license for a career, eg, medicine, accounting, nursing, pharmacy, etc.
My suggestions: first give yourself a way to warm up and make it an everyday thing to practice. To make it as fast as possible to start and stop, skip digital - instead I suggest printer paper, ballpoint pens and a light pad - the pad is a good drawing surface and it also lets you trace your old work to do corrections. Regular Bic ballpoints are an excellent sketching tool and train you out of needing to erase everything constantly. Do a lot of "monkey see, monkey do" with art tutorials where you can see someone's hand moving - don't worry about what they are saying, the information is in the motions they're making and copying that teaches a lot. The bigger ideas around art fundamentals you can get from books like Dodson "Keys to Drawing" or Hale "100 Drawing Lessons From the Great Masters". Those can be read and also have ideas for exercises.
Everyone's suggestions are very good! I would say the most important thing for me was, painting a little every day even if just for a few minutes, and enjoy the project you are working on. For me, the iPad made it so I could work anywhere at any time, but a sketchbook can do this too. Plenty of college-level/ or higher resources just on RU-vid for free
I mean the old one is 12.9 so I think I’ll hold off for now unless it gives me like 4x the layers in procreate or something like the last M1 upgrade did
Being in a city with a lot studios like LA currently gives you a advantage I would say, but the high cost of living of these types of city’s also give you a disadvantage so it’s a trade off
Yeah so I got a quick solution. Coffee shops. That's where the money is at. All art must be paired with drugs appropriately. It's coffee. Open a coffee shop and sell art there. Or convince your friend!
Maybe it's just the timing of me discovering your channel right before this whole change you made, but I am NOT liking the doomsplaining terminology you're infusing into your videos from the titles, your introduction content, and descriptions. Yes, the industry is collapsing. I don't damn need a reminder from a channel I thought was supposed to HELP artists.
Not sure how giving tips on an unstable job market doesn't help artists, if the job market was not in a decline right now, it wouldn't make it into my titles. learning how to navigate the current job landscape I think many people will find quite useful. What topics would you find more helpful, I would be happy to consider them for future videos?
Should he not be honest about everything that’s going on in the art world? Sugarcoating the uncertainty in the industry would be a massive disservice to aspiring artists. Hearing the reality of the situation from industry professionals prevents unrealistic expectations. Inkwell and his guests ARE helping artists. It’s not his fault you don’t want to hear the truth. Chill out.
Feels like the exact same thing that's happening in the games industry right now! It's all because of covid creating a bubble that popped. Hopefully because of the demand for these things never going away + people getting fed up, stuff will get better eventually. I'm really struggling, as someone who also feels like college didn't prepare me. All I can do is keep applying to stuff and working on my portfolio, while trying not to lose all hope.
I'm in the very same situation. I managed to get a couple jobs, but like, both lasted a year and then off you go, righ back into the hiring pool that is ever so growing with way more experienced artists than you that just got laid off from prestigious studios and who are all fighting over the entry level jobs despite the meager pay because we're all desperate for a job. Finding your way into this industry as a newbie has been truly disheartening to say the least. 😔
Not really. The world's economy is stagnating and there is a possibility of an economic recession in the future what with the global pandemic we had, all the international and national conflicts happening around the world and lack of real innovation.
