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@TheCherno, With all due respect and time constraints and all. I feel slightly disappointed that you had to use a 3rd party to construct your networking protocols. You can easily go from Linux to Windows by creating a client and server program and vice versa with using winsocks2 for windows and cygwin network drivers to run native Linux apps on windows. I feel only a handful of us who are insane & hardcore enough to write our own game & physics engines from scratch should also have this same belief in networking as well. Just my 2 cents =)
@@CodeParticles Why? How is what you're doing any better than using a 3rd party that handles the OS specifics for you? If anything, your solution would probably result in less efficient code, because you're reinventing the wheel. And, if it is truly about the idea of being "insane and hardcore", as you put forth, then why use cygwin network drivers? (That sentence doesn't make that much sense btw, but I'm interpreting it as you're using it as a method of portability between Linux and Windows). Wouldn't a truly "insane and hardcore" thing be to simply build your own network layer that creates an abstracted socket implementation built on top of each individual OS API you wish to support? He mentioned that he doesn't have a lot of experience in networking, and his channel caters to game developers - I would argue his choice of using the steam library is actually a very good one. It's generally not advisable to teach the intricacies of a subject you are not intimately familiar with, and a 3rd party library allows him to cover "how to do it" without really understanding how it works.
@TheCherno hey great video again. I have learned more about C++ from your tutorials than any other ones. Just a suggestion would mind creating a video on C++ Software interview prep? I'm sure a lot of people would be interested. Thank you.
Side note, I don't think you need crossover cables anymore. I think NIC's can auto negotiate direct connections now. Some kind of update to the Ethernet Standard.
@@joshnjoshgaming Ok, here we go. It seems like you're a fanboy. Let me break it down: 1. Fuck Nvidia. With that out of the way 2. No major engine support. Although, I don't use engine and go low level most of the time, there are times where I use an engine for quick implementations. 3. No debugger. "Oh but that's an IDE thing". No. Linux just particularly sucks at providing an IDE. I use Emacs, even on Windows but I still use Visual Studio for its debugger and LSP. There's nothing like it in the market. No. Jetbrains doesn't come close 4. Collaboration. You know, when you have a job, you don't work on your own. Developers work with you. To make the best of your time, remove the OS barrier. 5. Why would I bother about Windows? Because everyone plays games on Windows so why would I develop on some platform and fix errors on something else? One tool doesn't fit all. I've been a hardcore linux user for like 5 years. Loved it. But the support isn't there.
@@friedrichmyers i asked a simple question, douche, way to make assumptions and be rude for no reason. also, its clear you go "low level" (xD) cuz I don't know what engines arent supported, unreal godot and unity all have full linux support.
I love this channel for actually going balls deep into these kinda topics. A typical internet article would leave me with questions and abstract explanations without allowing me to actually write some decent code.
awesome video. I'm not sure if you were aware, but Visual Studio has a remote debugging feature. You can edit on Windows, and compile and debug on another machine via ssh. This would save you the trouble of copying the code, compiling the code figuring out how to debug in linux (in case something doesn't work). Hope this helps in the future.
I use c++ builder, and they usually bundle a networking library called Indy v10. It really has a lot of client and server networking components with support for SSL. You can do very low level programming for both tcp clients and servers, or add your own web server. I have actually use this to create an email client to aid in automating some email tasks via command line .
Yesss please more Linux videos! I'm especially interested in how to make proper cross-platform software, that is easy to build on both Linux and Windows.
That's pretty easy conceptually :) I write c++ code on windows that compiles for linux and windows. I am at the network level so a ton of my code is low level and OS dependent. All you do is make a platform specific layer at the very base where you wrap all platform specific code under the same functions. Then you just configure your compilation params to only compile the files for the target platform. You can do this via cmake config params, in visual studio you can make different build targets. etc. An example is this: Windows_Platform.h int platformIndependentCode() { do something windows specific; return value; } Linux_Platform.h int platformIndependentCode() { do something linux specific; return value; } main.cpp int main() { platformIndependentCode(); return 0; } then compiling for linux would be: g++ main.cpp Linux_Platform.h this clearly wouldn't work and is a loose example, but that's how most do it. They wrap it all up in the same function redefined for each system. You can do the same thing using defines. Something like this: Platform_Secific.h #ifdef WINDOWS int platformIndependentCode() { do something windows specific; return value; } #else ifdef LINUX int platformIndependentCode() { do something linux specific; return value; } #endif for this method, you can define one or the other. Obviously this needs cleaned up because you could end up defining both and blah blah blah errors errors bugs right? But you get the basic idea I hope. Let me know if you have questions!
I'm solutions architect, and software engineer in field of networking for around quarter of century and I'm surprised how developers lacks in networking programming knowledge in 21st century, where we live in connected world since decades. I saw such deficiencies even among programmers who were developing 5G. Anyway you're doing excellent job making your videos! Good luck and please keep going. It's a pleasure to watch your videos.
I recently graduated with my bachelors in Computer Science. At my school they did not cover it well. There was very little programming. We mostly learned about the OSI Layers and protocols. Which I think is valuable and it is worth knowing, but we certainly did not learn what we needed to learn to be good engineers. Luckily great resources like Cherno exist- so here I am! TL;DR: I believe you. I do not think my CS education covered networking very well.
You're right, Marcin. Meanwhile, could you please suggest a learning path (preferably with a few online tutorials) that traverses from fundamentals to expert level knowledge?
I think the "TV show" aspect is good, its a lot more fun to watch and it doesn't take any information away from the video. In fact I think its a better learning experience as a whole
Just wanted to say I've just discovered you're channel, and this is such fantastic content. Really appreciate the hard work you put into these videos, I look forward to following you!
@@sirsneakybeaky Honestly it helps to be compelled into using lower level functions to provide a service. You learn a lot more about the system under the hood and are more able to anticipate problems or possible complications later on. I made a webserver in C before and I learned a metric ton about networking that I wouldn't be able to had I not ventured out of my comfort zone. (The entire outside world of which happens to be anything that has to do with networks haha)
I use asio. It is very good and yes, I won't touch anything that requires boost either, but as you note asio has a stand alone project and that's what I use.
FYI: There is 2 RJ45 termination standard: 568A and 568B. A straight Ethernet cable is a cable that has both ends terminated with 568A or 568B. A crossover cable has one end terminated 568A and the other one is 568B. There is no 568B crossover: it's a 568A. Hooking 2 PCs back-to-back (i.e. without a switch in between) with an Ethernet cable no longer required a crossover cable IF both interface card are set to 1Gbit or higher. The network cards will do the crossover "internally". It's in the specs of Gigabit network. 10Mbit and 100Mbits connections do require crossover cables even if the card is capable of Gigabit. The same goes when connecting 2 switches (or hubs) using regular network ports.
I remember writing a c# networking system based on tom weiland's original c# networking tutorials and realizing later how much a waste of time it was to write it because the end result ifor all these libraries is the same: send message, send message reliably over udp, receive message. Everything else, you should be doing at the application level anyways so it doesn't make sense to write the actual sockets library unless you're curious to understand it, or if you think you have some ground breaking ideas that will revolutionize how the underlying transport works. So I agree, many times you don't need to understand how something works as long as you can effectively use it, better to concentrate on your own application.
You don't want to just "reliably send mover udp" though. Sometimes you need reliability and ordering, sometime you just need reliability without necessarily ordering, but most of the time for any real-time application like a game, what you want the most is just the latest one reliably, not caring about lost messages when a newer have been sent. Then, there are various strategies to archieve that to various trade-off of latency and bandwidth, depending on your bandwidth needs. (the most efficient trick for low-latency game networking is a lot of redundancy, because you want the lowest latency possible and the bandwidth usage is usually pretty minimal).
@@Kazyek i understand that, i do that at the application level using a tick system, each packet is associated with a tick and I can decide how to handle out of order packets. My point was you can find libraries thay implement the low level transports already and writing them yourself is usually a waste of time unless you have some particular requirements on how the messaging works.
@@phee3D Your point is wrong though. That particular requirement of wanting a mix of reliable communication and minimum-latency communication comes up in any fast action game. I would say though, there could easily be a networking library specific for games that could expose the right interface, I haven't investigated that. It's also really simple to develop, it's barely an afterthought compared to how you actually architect a game when networked: everything needs to eventually be unified on an event stream regardless if caused by network, user input, game script, response to detected events, "ai" input, etc. then you have to build the game logic underneath that layer. That's without considering the tick rates of concurrent threads, or if you're lock stepped, what your interpolation/extrapolation method is, how the actual architecture works (p2p, single server, or more like an mmo), if the server has complete authority over all actions or if there is some client event triggering with heuristic checks, or so many other strategies. Writing some boiler plate standard code to move bytes is not an issue or difficulty whatsoever.
@@Bozebo you didn't understand what I said. I never said you don't need a mix of reliable communication as well as fastest possible communication. I said these libraries should perform the following functions: send message, send reliable message over udp, receive message. By "send message", the first one in this list, I meant just sending messages as fast as possible, without considering any reliability. I myself am currently making a game where I use unreliable message sending for things such as player position and I also use reliable messages for events such as player death.
Thanks so much for making this video. I am new to C++ and bought some Udemy courses. I was surprised when going through them that I did not see lessons on Networking.
Great Stuff, I love these type of videos where you teach more on things that are not really apart of c++ and where you need outside libraries, and learning those are exetremly confusing e.g learning encryption in c++ took ages and only installing the libraries where a whole process in it of itself
If you're watching for pure enjoyment that is perfectly fine, but just make sure you don't get overwhelmed. There are many years between a new programmer and all of the advanced topics he covers in his videos. Definitely cool to see the "endgame" but make sure you focus on the basics as well! Good luck with the journey :)
Every CPP dev: "I didn't like all the existing solutions because I didn't want to rely on third party libraries, so I made my own which can can download in the description to rely on in your own code" 😂
c++ is powerfull languge when it comes to performonce i remember when i built a webserver using c++ i has so much fun learing how the socket works and serving full static website , great video btw
@@vivekkoul4428it's very different because javascript is a super high level language, and nodejs abstracts everything away. if you want to learn more about how computers actually work, you should play around with C and C++ for sure
ASIO is the better part of boost. And it is independent of boost actually and you can have a standalone installation. For a rigorous use of any I/O (not just networking) what I came to understand over 3-4 years is that you absolutely need to have a reactor or proactor design in palce anyway (maybe also with an event loop). That's exactly what ASIO is. Nothing more, nothing less. That's why I even use it on my embedded projects (esp32 with only 512 kb of ram has ported ASIO). It just makes I/O in general more robust and failsafe. The very concept of I/O is very complicated. These designs not only make life easier, they will at the same time help you understand the true nature of the problem and how to solve it.
I would love to learn more about networking basics so I can understand what the high level process is for making a connection to a server, how to handle basic errors, etc.
There will be Networking in the C++26 standard most likely. You can search for Networking TS. And the library that is closest to that and will give you the easiest time migrating would be asio. There is a standalone version of asio you can get from ThinkAsync also, no need for the entire boost library. Honestly I think even for Games asio is a really good fit. But as you said: everyone has their preferences for sure and you are not forced to use that at all also. Yours seems to be going against the mainstream a little bit. That also shows in your build system choice :p
I searched for Networking TS and it seems that no one is currently working making the changes necessary to get it into C++26. Is It still being worked on?
I Love C++, it's my favourite programming language. C is also cool. But I love the syntax of C++, I love how it works on basically everything, I love how you can access it from other languages like C#. I also love the performance. Who's with me? :D
Honestly I've never had any issue with cpp not having a socket interface. I use cpp all the time at work for windows based applications. When I use it at home, it's always for something OS specific. There aren't many projects where I would choose cpp as the go to language if it needed to be OS agnostic. Obviously it makes sense for a game engine, but I don't build game engines :)
26:30 you for sure want your executables to be _owned_ by root:root though, so an unprivileged user can't change them. Generally a "good enough" pattern is to have files chowned to root:root, a nologin user called something like "app-server-headless" that runs your program(s) (usually under systemd nowadays), and then some accounts for your server administrators that have sudo access. You can restrict the sudo access or start messing with groups or even SELinux if you want to go hard on hardening, but "good enough" works aight.
I looked through the comments and could only find like two people addressing this point, so I'll address it myself and add to it, that you should've just used LD_LIBRARY_PATH and set it before calling the program. The path can be relative as well, so subdirectories are fine, but you can even just use '.' in cases where they're in the same directory. Second of all, if the distro you're using is setup properly then you should be using and already have a path for /usr/local/lib or in some cases /usr/local/lib64, though most would only have that if you do any 32-bit cross compiling work. You almost got that one right, but it was backwards because the local comes first. It's where all of the files should be collected that you create on top of the distro files.
I was so happy to see a networking in c++ video, since all the videos I've seen try go into boost::asio just to abstract it away with some custom wrapper class. I never heard of steam's networking library. Please do more Linux videos as well!
By the way, about networking peer to peer with Windows for gaming, I was able to do that with a Vista machine back in the day. I was at a friend who didn't have a router (oh, the 2000s), and so I literally just plugged an ethernet cable between our notebooks and used an ad-hoc network option in the Windows network manager. It was surprisingly straightforward, like 1 minute and 10 clicks once I knew where to go. Edit: fairly sure that was also possible over wifi, you could self host a LAN wifi on your notebook, and have other notebooks join, it's been a while since I messed with that though so I don't recall for sure.
would love a video detailing how to statically link this library. tried following your tutorial (for static lib linking) with this which just fails, or requires i reference the .exp file, and then libcrypto and protobuff dll's still have to link dynmically.. I just want to embed the networking code in my dll... 😢
I feel like the next iteration of C++ should have a standard networking implementation. Even just an open/listen/close/connect. and thats it, would actually be enough. its actually pretty stupid it doesnt already, should have been in starting at 17 at the latest.
`chmod +x *` is also incorrect. The library (.so) is not an executable, it contains executable code but it is not directly an executable file and as such there is no need to mark it as such. This is a bad practice to teach people, too often we see servers compromised because the user has done something silly like this. Also instead of installing application specific libraries into the global search path like you do, the better alternative is to set the `LD_LIBRARY_PATH` environment variable to add your application directory to the search path. Ie: `LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/app ./App-Server-Headless`. There is no requirement or need for libraries to be in a `lib` directory at all. You also do not need to use `ldconfig`. Typically you would deploy a script to launch your application that sets the env var to the application's installation location, ie: ``` #!/bin/bash APP_PATH="$(dirname ${readlink -f $0))" LD_PRELOAD_PATH="$APP_PATH/lib" exec ./my-app.bin ```
Funny you should mention that, because the distro I'm on has all of the *.so files set to executable. Although, sometimes they have a tiny function in them do some kind of a task or print a message. Most don't, but it does happen on occasion.
About the executable not finding the shared library when you execute it, you could either: 1. set the LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to where your executable is ( export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/path/to/shared/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH ). This way the dynamic linker will find the library. 2. ELF files have an entry called rpath. This is used by the dynamic linker to load the shared libraries. When you link the executable with the shared library, you can tell the linker to set rpath to '$ORIGIN' to load libraries in the same directory as the executable. Tbh I have no idea why 2 is not the default :P
even in languages where there is built in networking people often use third party libraries anyway, like I've never actually seen someone write networked code in rust and not use Tokio. the lack of built in networking is fairly acceptable.
could you make a video about all the make stuff. on linux u used like make, premake and gmake but also mentioned cmake thoughout the video. it‘s kinda confusing for me to choose which of these I should use for my projects
