NEVER BEFORE SHARED! How Dr. James White Became Postmillennial 

In addition to the 1689 I would love to encourage you to read the three forms of unity. Very great and very detailed! I began the process of reforming my theology and more seriously seeking the Lord in 2019 and its an on going process! keep seeking truth! And remember these old reform documents are great and priceless but they’re not the Word of God and we must always test the tradition with the word of God. God bless you

@@N81999 Which vein does the Three Forms of Unity follow? (e.g. Calvanistic Baptist, Reformed Presbyterian, etc)

@@graspunwrapped1124 It's the "Continental Reformed" position. I don't think they always follow a Presbyterian form of government, as that has a strong history of development in what is now the UK, though a lot of the foundation was laid out by Calvin and other reformers in mainland Europe. But in the U.S. most Continental Reformed do use a Presbyterian form of government from what I can tell. I understand in Europe it is less common, but I don't know for sure. But the core theology is largely compatible between Westminster and the Three Forms. Neither take a Baptist view of the sacraments or covenants, and as such some will argue that it is "real" historic Reformed Theology or the "Truely Reformed" position. This channel takes a Reformed Baptist position (or maybe 1689 Federalism, which may be slightly different), and so is more in line with the London Baptist Confession. Of particular interest, at least in my opinion: one of the documents that make up the Three Forms of Unity is the Canons of Dort, which is what the acrostic TULIP is meant to point towards. I'd highly recommend taking the time to read that (after the Westminster Confession of course, I say as a Presby) to get a solid foundation for what is intended by TULIP.

Christ reigns now. So the correct understanding is a-millenial.

@@lawrence1318 Christ reigns now, so the correct understanding is postmil. :)

I’d love he and Jeff to write a book together

The full interview with Jeff Durbin on postmil is available on our channel under “Theology Applied.”

@@RightResponseMinistries thanks

@@RightResponseMinistries hey I was wondering what your personal position is on this topic?

No

@@jpfiero thanks all this time I thought maybe he was.

@@silversurfer2703 your welcome, she does go to his church I think.

The Great Tribulation has already occurred in AD 70 with the fall of Jerusalem.

@@RightResponseMinistries wrong

@@bisdakpinoy3428 Right....Read Matthew 23 with an emphasis on verses 35-39.The tribulation is for covenant breaking Jerusalem

@@bisdakpinoy3428 the tribulation happened as he said. He said THAT generation will witness it, not any generation that the reader is in.

@@RightResponseMinistries 🤦oh boy .....I definitely was floored when James White did this. Spurgeon has a much better perspective. I tell you what, if you can convince Alan Kurschner to become a postmillennial, no argument, I will be one as well. To be honest, I really truly gave it a long long look but my brain could not ignore the ills of history and certain passages. It is truly another form of of Amillenialism. Would highly suggest reading the last four chapters of Revelation without the number chapter breaks as Alan has suggested.

Romans 1 = PostMil silver bullet. Couldn't agree more!

​@@KennethSee can you explain? I read the chapter twice over and I can't seem to see what's being referred to.

@@jakebarnes3054 When it details the kinds of things God gives people up to, it doesn’t say He would give them up “until the world is Christian”. It’s something he’s always doing and will do until Christ returns. There will be no glorious Kingdom on earth until after Christ returns to bring it by the sword.

@@KennethSee true.

That's amusing. I've been in conversations with amil and premil believers on this channel. The amil guy accused me of being overly earth-focused, and the pre-mil accused me of spiritualizing everything. I personally find that fairly convincing that Postmil indeed has the right balance of heaven and earth in their understanding of scripture.

@@oracleoftroy If you're relying on a 'balance', your ideas are man-made. And I have pointed out the silliness of the post-mil position from a logical viewpoint, which you have ignored.

@@lawrence1318 Nope, just an observation. I feel similarly when antinomians call me a legalist and the legalists call me antinomian. When those who are more gnostic in their view are appalled that I affirm the physical, and those that are materialistic in their view are appalled that I affirm the spiritual, I think that shows that I am at least in the ballpark of scriptural proof which affirms both. I consider it a minor proof at best, but personally interesting what other viewpoints latch onto as being a step too far. I ignored you "logical" point because it didn't seem to be based on logic, but autobiographical incredulity. Why should what you personally find appalling mean it is false? I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that there are more elect people today as a percentage when most of the world has heard of Christ and 1/3 of the world at least nominally professes Christianity then 2000 years ago when it was a few hundred thousand in a small part of the world. If Christianity continues to spread, why wouldn't there be more saved people alive than there are today or during the early church? It doesn't seem obviously illogical or unbiblical, though it does contradict some presuppositions people bring to certain passages

@@oracleoftroy The number of elect is not affected by how many people have heard the gospel. So you are necessarily off track.

@@lawrence1318 I believe the ordinary means God uses to call is people is the gospel. The further the spread of the gospel, the more God will give ears to hear and eyes to see. That isn't to deny that God can give special revelation like he did to Paul, but I also don't deny the power of the gospel to save and the promise God gives to fill the whole earth with his kingdom.

Barnabas 15:2
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then
I will bestow My mercy upon them. Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it. Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end. Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

Whatever book that is, isn’t in the Bible brother

@@itsbiblical7215 I am not aware of any book of Baranabas and even I cannot disagree with what you have quoted from it, I don’t know what the rest of this book you are quoting from says. This book, as another person has already commented, is not in the Bible and the Bible should be sufficient to tell you the same truth that you have quoted from this other book. I have no intention of reading another book that is not in the Bible, I have more than enough in Scripture to learn from already. If you want to be herd when making comments on what is posted on a Christian site, I suggest you look for the same information in your Bible and quote that instead. Also old English can be difficult for some people to understand, especially the young. One of the ploys of the enemy is to accurately quote Scripture in one place so that he can twist Scripture in other places, just to get us to believe any lie that he can, Satan will go to whatever lengths he has to, in order to deceive us. You need to check every word written in this book you are quoting from against what is clearly taught in the Bible to be absolutely sure that it doesn’t contradict what the Bible says. It’s much easier just to stick with The Bible, I cannot in any conscience encourage you to continue with a book that is not in the Bible.

the prophetic standard statement is a step in the right direction isn't it?

@@zacharyramer8106 no, its doubling down on their false practices and mysticism

He brought the Kingdom already. We're not waiting for it. It is here, now. *Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.*

Revelation was referring to the first century, and MOST of revelation was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Amen.

Yeah... Even though much of the tribulation did occur in the past, there's still so much in the future and things are clearly going in this direction in the future. Certain prophecies like the Euphrates drying up, the world government gradually forming etc. Also prophecy is fulfilled multiple times (Joshua as a type of Christ, even sharing His name, being prophesied as the one who would come after Moses but be like Moses, knowing God face-to-face. The Passover, an event that occurred in Egypt but also occurs when we are saved, as a shadow of Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice), the point being that the door is wide open for what's to come. The 1000 year reign is yet to come and so are the absolute worst days the world is to see.

@@jakebarnes3054 Well said.

The Bible says that if you claim to be without sin you are a liar and the truth is not in you, so this is referring to someone who claims to be a Christian because to have the truth in you, you must be born again. That means that Christians are not without sin. How could it ever glorify God if people who are not without sin achieved a whole world full of Christians without Jesus ( Yeshua) in order to bring him back? The logic in the post millennial doctrine blows my mind, what a lot of nonsense. I don’t understand how anyone claiming to be a Christian could be so deceived. The Lord have mercy. How can people who seem to have such a clear understanding of Salvation be so wrong. Those who are saying that what we see happening in the world around us has nothing to do with what the Bible tells us will happen? What is the purpose of the Bible then? Doesn’t The Bible Say that God is telling us what will happen before it happens as proof that it is The very Word of God? That is what The Holy Spirit and The Bible is leading me to believe. I am comforted with knowing what The Bible is teaching will happen and then I see it happening in the world and I know that The Rapture of the Church is very near. The idea that He may not come and take us home for thousands of years doesn’t comfort me at all and makes no sense at all. God is Sovereign in all He does. I am a fully fledged trinitarian believer who believes that one cannot lose one’s Salvation because it is entirely a work of God Who cannot make mistakes.

I heard Doug Wilson lay it out pretty good once something like this, he said what did Christianity look like across the earth in 100 AD, in 500 AD, 1000 AD, 1500 AD, his point was we shouldn’t get disheartened by focusing in on dips or dry spells or in certain geographical areas, the pretrib rapture crowd doesn’t have it right, Jesus could come back tomorrow, but it could be another thousand years, our job is to put our faith in him and serve him to the best of our ability with the time he has given us while here on earth

It does seem that history doesn't show a postmil understanding of the kingdom

@Jack Webb, I would argue that the "Just look around" approach isn't a biblical hermeneutic.

@@johnmyers3450 it kinda is... for example if I told you we live in the kindgom and Christ is king you could say " well no just open your eyes and look around around thats not the case."

@@alexz31cujo31 How is that Biblical when it explicitly contradicts what Jesus taught about it in Luke 17: 20f: "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Postmil affirms that the kingdom of God is here now in the midst of us and has been since 2000 years ago and will continue to be until Jesus's return, yet that it isn't something we can just point to, especially when we only focus on a narrow slice of time.

He’s absolutely right if you get Israel wrong then you get your eschatology wrong. He’s wrong about Israel and he’s wrong about the millennium.

And he definitely has Israel wrong.

​@@Chief_Of_Sinnersbased

😅😅😅🤡🤡🤡🤡

The more one learns of James White handling of scripture the less shocking issues like this become.

@@bluej2k oh that was a provocative statement! Where is he wrong on other things?

@@Rbl7132 without intending to open a lengthy debate here , I'll state it this way: After listening to JW over 7+ years (even with admiration early on), I've watched him become more and more prideful, condescending and dependent on his own academic prowess when expositing scripture. This has led to some errors which basically depend on the "apparently" intentional obfuscation of truth in various biblical texts as opposed to the perspicuity of scripture which makes biblical truth available to all who seek it. Thus, this latest step into postmillenialism is less surprising to me. It represents a natural progression when the plainness of the bible is called into question. This type of "exegesis" is used by many others to attack equally the issues of creation, the literal exodus event, the worldwide flood, the means of salvation, God's sovereignty, the Trinity, the gifts of the spirit, the rapture and vitually all eschatogical events including the millenial reign of Christ.

Well said ❤✝️

Removing those passages would include Romans 11 which specifically teaches there is no pause, but that gentiles are grafted into Israel. There is only one plan if salvation, and there is no contradiction in the Bible with postmil when you account for all it says.

@@oracleoftroy O BOY. You are exactly wrong. Are you unable to read 11 through 16? God did not want them to fall but they fell. They rejected the king of glory ! Through their fall, salvation came to all men. 15 states this specifically. For if the casting away of them( that's God putting them aside) be the reconciliation of the world what should the receiving of them be but life from the dead. Even though they are currently dead to God as a Nation, they will be brought back into glory after grace... after the new man is snatched out of this world! The casting away is the stopping of the Kingdom program and the introduction of the grace program which was a secrit hid in God. When grace is over the kingdom program will Begin Again. Further you believe that you a gentile, a Grace believer are grafted into the Olive Branch? This also is exactly wrong. How do I know? These that are grafted in to the Olive Tree are at risk of being torn out of it again. Which goes against what Paul taught in Romans 8:38 just before this scripture. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers nor things present, nor things to come, nor Heights nor death nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us to separate us to separate us to separate us to separate us to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Je'sus our Lord. You are not the people grafted back into the Olive Tree! Those are the Jews that chose to believe. But they can lose their salvation if they don't keep the Commandments. That is Kingdom theology.!! Why can't you read? Stop mixing grace and Kingdom I is terribly embarrassing! Even though it sounds like I'm angry I'm not. I'm just terribly embarrassed that my fellow Americans that have the Bible in their laps cannot read the words on the page!

@@bridgeofgraceandyou5687 so you believe salvation is by works? You believe you can lose your salvation? Please clarify. You said a lot there, and mostly confusing doctrinal issues.

@@mariosangermano5709 My friend. I am a full blown Epeshians 2:8,9 believer. The gospel of my salvation is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. I trust that Je'sus came back from heaven and taught Paul everything that I need for salvation, power, edification and the administering of GRACE to the people of OUR TIME, After the cross and before the rapture.

Pre-mil is an impossible viewpoint because it directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture. Shortest example: Luke 17:20-21 (ESV): Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

@@rayortiz6189 consider for a moment that you might be conflating two different terms, as in “The kingdom of God” which is built of each person saved vs the physical reign of Christ on earth ie: “the millennium “. Since these are different things, there is no contradiction.

@@johnquinn7794 scripture doesn't teach that its a physical kingdom, Jesus literally said it isn't of this world, the passage I quoted says it, and every usage of kingdom teaches it. Christ reigns throughout history, just look at his parables. It is a contradiction for pre-mils, they say the right answer at first but then in actuality deny it. its cognitive dissonance because of their tradition

Premillenialism is not tenable with scripture

@@rayortiz6189 he will sit on the throne of David. That’s on earth

I believe Durban and those like John Edwards are more “Historical Postmil”, while NAR’s version is completely false. Lulz

@@chrisbrower9532 That is what I'm asking help on lol - HOW? I don't see a difference: both feel a mission to bring heaven on earth it would seem. NAR will be manipulative, ie, but apart from that how is their orthopraxy different?

@@dubyag4124 sorry, I’ve been scrubbing the videos trying to find the quote so you can hear it directly from Jeff, but I cannot find it. I would never want to misrepresent Jeff, but I can’t just leave you with a non-answer, so if you’ll give me some grace, I’ll do my best to sum up what I remember his response to this question being (how is his postmil diff from NAR postmil): He made it clear that he does NOT believe in the dominion/7 mountain type theology, that focuses on a top-down realization of the kingdom, but by the power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit’s work in the lives of Christians, the Gospel will eventually spread throughout the world, becoming the new “normal” (my word). So he’s not taking this signs/wonders/powers/taking it by force type of view, but this slow, but steadily increase in God’s kingdom. The problem w this (like evolution) is that it has no time limit… he thinks it could take tens of thousands of years possibly. There are many mistakes w this view, not the least of which are the Scripture, it doesn’t say that… and well… science, it’s just not feasible. I hope this answered what you were wondering. If not let me know where I can be more clear. I’m no expert on the historic, premil view (I don’t even hold it), but it is and has been the view of many brothers and sisters in Christ since the inception of the Church…. but not all. This new NAR stuff doesn’t use the Bible hardly at all (where it does, it isolates passages and reads into it) and also depends on “new” revelation, “battle plans” given through its modern “Apostles” and “Prophets”.

@@chrisbrower9532 thank you so much! I really appreciate it

@@dubyag4124 np man. I went through about an hour an a half to find the quote (didn’t mind it, I love Jeff’s stuff), just bummed I couldn’t find it. I just wanted to tack on 2 quick things: first, I agree w these guys that while eschatology is a secondary issue, it is very important because it can and does effect how we conduct our walk with Christ, despite what some others may say. Second, while very important, it isn’t a salvation issue if your eschatology is not right (I think you and most people know that) because.. nobody’s is. That said, I just want to encourage you to double check your presuppositions (as Jeff himself suggests), and keep an open mind to other views (as long as they aren’t heretical, and theologically wack, as I feel Bethel’s are). I recently ran across this video by Mike Winger (another fantastic teacher) that outlines some of the most popular, solid eschatological views: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xmw0uVLunwU.html If anything, I’d say I lean toward #4. The name is quite terrible as I’m not a dispensationalist, and the baggage of premil would take a list of caveats to explain, but I think the “already, but not yet” is something the post mil (prob my 2nd most convinced of view), can’t deal with. Have fun learning more about the Lord and contemplating His amazing plan.. whatever it ends up being will be better than we could ever imagine anyway! 👍🏻

Linda the audience of Jesus time were told to escape because the Roman Empire was on the way...the invasion started in 66AD and the temple is destroyed in 70AD.Revelations 11 said it would occur for 42 months...3 and a half years. Jesus said when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies. All the righteous blood shed upon the earth was for the generation of covenant breaking Jerusalem (Matthew 23:35-39)that had no fruits for repentance concerning their wickedness

He will return, but not until the Hos gospel covers the world like the waters of the sea. “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” ‭‭Habakkuk‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭ESV‬‬ God will redeem His creation, not just rapture us outta here. We might still be in the early church era.

@@tyc4587 I agree....premillenial dispensationalism unfortunately and I mean UNFORTUNATELY has engaged most believers in a never ending game of red light green light any time some world news worthy event happens Its very strange to me a majority of Premillennialism dispensation Christians(I intend no animosity) believe todays Israel is under some kind of indictment from God that will happen once the rapture occurs

Jesus ( Yeshua) comes as a thief in the night to those who are perishing, you need to study your Bible prayerfully and thoroughly, for we are Children of the day and the thief in the night does not apply to The Children of God.

To summarize this, you believe that we should never discuss eschatology? I disagree, bad eschatology neuters Christians. Having a better understanding of any of Gods promises is a huge gift.

So... what your saying is that God gave us His Word, but we should only study and discuss the parts we feel comfortable with/can completely agree on/explain? I daresay that is dishonoring to God and His Word.

No, it’s absolutely essential to talk about these eschatological topics because it determines HOW you carry out your points listed above. They’re not more important, but most definitely important. I’d study up on your views because the statement you gave is frightening to us trying to take dominion and do what God commanded us to do.

Seems like a "spiritualized" deflection.

I fail to see how we can love God with all of our being, including our mind, by blatantly ignoring parts of what God revealed to us. That seems like hating God to me.

What?

Nope

Proof ?

@NicoCocohow do you figure revelation didn’t happen in and around 70AD? How do you reconcile Rev 1:1, 1:3 and 1:9, and believe that isn’t in their time?

@@Jus4kiks Already, not yet

@@butternutsquash2591 ?