New 15 Round limit in USPSA Production Division. 

All I understood is Nils will be excited to win Nats again this year 😅

Makes sense to me even when not looking at a “streamlining between sports” view. MOST out of the box 9s have 15-17 round mags as a standard.

15 rounds, like production division in IPSC. Good news, in my opinion. They should do the same with Carry Optics.

Subscribed and hope more do - thanks for taking the time to respond to so many people. I know it takes time on your end, and some might assume it's to help drive traffic. But we know you're genuine and your perspective adds a ton of value.

About time! Production was nearly dead so this is a great change.

Im in SA, so IPSC and 15 rounds it how I simply understood the sport. I think it's part of your walk through to decide where you're going to do ideal changes. 15 will give more options and allow more movement between reloads. Honestly, states where you can't, would need to build stages according to how you're allowed to reload. That in itself will allow more diversity in tactics. Where you need to adjust your stage plan to accomplish your results.

I'm excited to start running production this year with the updated capacity and honestly I'm so happy for it because if I do introduce my friends who aren't competitive shooters the barrier to entry isn't "yeah you can run your pistol but you'll need to buy X more magazines"

NBD. In NY we have limited 10 in all divisions and most that travel to unrestricted states find ways to have and get standard capacity mags and use them. Maybe some day we will be free again. But thanks for the information and thoughts.

In Australia here, all semiauto pistols are limited to 10 rds. Just be happy.

Eliminate power factor. Combine all iron sight divisions. Combine CO and LO.

Carry optics should be 15 as well. As well as weight limits.

I think what also should've happened was that CO as we currently as we know it, should've become Limited Optics with 140mm mag length limits, people still keep their old CO classifications. Then Make a new "production optics" with an approved list and 15rd capacity to make it more of an "easy to enter" division. I think CO currently sits in limbo as this weird in between division between Production and Limited in rules. I also wished we could do a "Roland Special" division, where you can have comp + slide mounted red dot, but no gas pedals. Sort of like how IDPA ESP and CO allow you to have brakes/comps.

I think it definitely makes it easier and might attract more shooters.

Good stuff Nils :)

We have been following in our region (Philippines) and there has been no problem.

Yay!

Hello from St. George Nils! It is cold here!! Totally agree. One other positive for lower class shooters who may need to take an extra shot or three at steel is they will not be punished as hard as if they were running 10 rounders. Standing reloads suck. You guys take care. Rick and Leslie

Should they have stopped at 15 or raised the limit to 17 to allow standard capacity full size production handguns as well? This still limits the shooter to either a compact model or a downloaded full size.

I think it's positive. At the local level, with all the other things they have to worry about, we end up suggesting newbies start in Limited Minor so they don't have to add ammunition management to the mix. At 15 rounds, they can stay in Production. It may not save Production in the long run, though, as Carry Optics is so much more popular for first time competitors.

well, this makes me Wana bust out my iron shadow 2 again 🔥

I'm Cobra Ready!

I got into Production to help CCW skills. I sometimes have 10 rd mags. People prefer dots on pistols which puts more folks into Carry Optics. I’m leaning that way myself.

I hope it’s a positive step for production. My big problem is now I have to take off my shoes to keep count on you guys!

Haven't shot uspsa for like 9 years. At that time, if I recall right. Production was the most popular?

Its over. Uspsa is an optics sport now. LO had more entries at nationals than Limited did as a provisional division right? I think your commentary covers it, i doubt it will move the needle participation wise. It went from the top division to the dust bin so fast it is almost unbelievable...

TBH, I don't think it'll help at all.. In part, the appeal with Production use to be that you could grab any modern wonder nine and use it for USPSA without going up against the Lim and Open guys. It was geared towards the beginner as the mods and restrictions kept the guns relatively stock. With CO division and almost all the same 9mm pistols coming with an OR cut, Production isn't that beginner friendly at all by comparison. Irons is a much harder skill to master for the average person. It can be done but it takes far more dedication and practice to become proficient at it. A dot is simply more intuitive to use for almost anyone. Just go to most steel matches. New shooters with irons will struggle with plate racks etc. New shooters with dots will run right through it. I've seen it where new shooters are visibly dejected about not being able to clear an array of steel. Having a dot actually helps the shooter to more fully engage a COF and allows a higher sense of participation and accomplishment. Just think about how many times you've seen a new Production shooter run out of mags and ammo trying to clear a plate rack at 30 yards. It has to be absolutely demoralizing. Another consideration is that the entry point for CO is also relatively inexpensive. It mainly requires an additional optic but yet the performance and level of participation are dramatically increased. Having a dot simply makes the experience more engaging and fun. Production is going to go the way of revo and SS. There will be a few that shoot it but very few will choose to do so regularly. I don't see how a 15 round mag limit is going to make anyone feel any differently either.

That's been the rule in international IPSC forever. In literally every country - except the US. We could argue about maybe even 17 rounds these days, or weight limits to separate Glocks from Shadow2s, but the 10 round rule was a dinosaur regulation.

I like the new rule, I think more shooters will go back to production.

Why does your opinion matter? I heard the Mantis Training Tool says you’re a terrible trigger puller…❤❤❤

What do you think about the removal of A3 director and the attempted removal of A7 director?

I left MA for AZ 10 years ago, for those and 1000 other reasons. I always shot Limited but I got a second Rival just to do Production and IDPA SSP. 15 makes some sense, 10 does not. My Elite will be seeing less IDPA action now.

Agreed

So can i run a Glock 26 with 19 mags or do i have to use 10 rd stock mags?

I think it’s a good change, but anyone who thinks this will surge participation is crazy

Shooting a stage with 15 actually makes things tricky. A test comment.

its both hilariously 10 years late, and now more states than ever have 10rd mag limits. DOH!

I'm interested in USPSA and competitive shooting but I don't see the point in starting in Production if I have to buy a compact just to compete. However, I could just buy 15 round mags for my CZ P-10 S. On the other hand, I would prefer to just compete in OC with my full size Beretta 92X and Holosun 507C. I would just new a few more mags and an OWB holster.

You can possess "grandfathered" magazines in Massachusetts

Wow I had no idea production was limited to 10 rounds in USPSA, what's the point of Single stack then? Good change.

pretty odd that they would do that, considering the fact that their headquartered in a state that only allows 10 round magazines. I haven’t looked at the new rules, but seems like a disadvantage for anyone traveling from states where they are prohibited from owning magazines, greater than 10 rounds.

Just by definition it should be atleast 15 rounds. It was dumb to make it 10 to start with. Most production guns that aren’t concealed carry guns are 15+ round guns.

I just like being able to shoot my duty gun in my duty belt competitively without needing a belt without needing 9 billion mag pouches.

I think that Production will find it hard to gain traction to increase participation numbers. With CO and LO divsions newer competitors will choose those divisions. It seems to me the core change in USPSA has been soley towards increased magazine capacity. It removes/moderates one aspect of competitor stage planning. With 15+ capacity magazines and the vast majority of stages requiring 32 rounds max (with most i have seen being in the 20's), deciding where to reload has become less relevant. Before the change from 10 to 15 rounds in Production, it would take 3 magazines to complete most stages (with a fourth magazine if the stage required 32 rounds). Now at 15 rounds it takes 2 magazine reloads to complete most stages, but from what i have seen (for comparison) of other high capacity divisions most competitors still will use 3 magazines. Reloads taken wont be reduced by most competitors. Now i primarliy compete in Revolver, Single Stack, or Limited 10. A big necessity for me is to complete stages with the fewest reloads possible. I have less of a choice where and when i make those changes. I chosen to compete in the "low-cap" from my start in USPSA and accept the additional challenge. I see the change from 10 to 15 in Production as generally unnecessary. I believe that any competitor that can shoot stages proficiently with 10 rounds can do just as well or better with 15 rounds. If a Production competitor had 5-6 magazine pouches on their competition belt, i believe they will keep 5-6 magazine pouches and use them all. USPSA has a variety of divisions, which is nice. However it seems to me that the move is towards making high capacity divisions as similar as possible.

Oh thank god I can reduce the crap on my belt. This + the removal of the equipment position restrictions = my belt is slowly getting more comfortable. I’ve got a 28-30” waist so I don’t have a lot of room lol

I strongly disagree. 1. Capacity change will not increase participation. Production participation dropped because of carry optics. Which is not going anywhere. 2. Vast majority of USPSA shooters will never shoot an IPSC match. And should they wish to do so, they can - without any gear change. Simply don't use your last mag pouch. 3. I am not a GM, but I have never needed more than 5 mags in production - one in the gun and four on the belt. Is one less mag/pouch is what is going to bring droves of new shooters into the hobby? 4. 10 round limit required a different stage breakdown. With 15, just about every stage will be shot exactly the same for production, CO, Limited, LO. Occasionally there will be a difference for higer capacity divisions, but not all that often. 5. Classification and restricted states. 10 round cap limit gave an opportunity for restricted states shooters to classify on an even playing field in a division that had decent participation. Smugly telling restricted states shooters to just shoot in divisions that have almost no participation is a bit disingenuous. For all these reasons, USPSA decision is a bad one.

I strongly disagree. I live in Area 7, and 5 of the 7 states have magazine limits. 4 have 10 rounds, VT has 15 for pistols and 10 for rifles. Even if we wanted to comply, we can't buy 15 round mags locally. A lot of people are afraid to travel with higher than 10 round mags, and I don't blame them, jail sucks. If you have been following the news in the past years, every year another state or 2 is restricting limits to 10 rounds, and before long the entire country will be 10 rounds. To switch to 15 round mags can cost $300 to get new mags, if you can even get them. I contacted USPSA over a year ago and talked about the concerns of people being made into criminals in states with limits, just to be competitive, and I got their patented response, "that's not our problem, that's a decision you have to make". They said that you can still shoot 10 round mags if you want, and didn't care if you can be competitive or not against the shooters with 15 round mags. They should have just made another division for 15 rounds. They had no problem creating a Limited Optic division did they. This was after asking me "how many divisions do you want? We already have too many" The BOD does whatever they want without considering the shooters, and the impact to them. The organization is losing shooters real fast, and this isn't going to help. Not to mention that the dues last year went through the roof, and as a shooter we get nothing more in return. ALSO, are you familiar with rule 3.3.1? If not please read it. It says: "In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match." It doesn't say, "may" or any other wording that suggests that it is a recommendation only, it says "WILL BE THE MAXIMUM". No room for interpretation. USPSA better either enforce their own rule, or remove it. Period. When I mentioned it to them they said that this was only a suggestion, which it is not, completely ignoring the rule that they wrote. I have not interest is USPSA anymore, and neither do any of the group that I shoot with.

All 4 clubs that I shoot at USED to be USPSA, they are now PCSL. MUCH more shooter friendly now. It is decisions like this, and other BOD decisions that are driving shooters away from USPSA. I just saw that it will cost $400 to shoot at the Nationals. If 300 shooters show up that's $120,000 just for entry fees. Where does this money go? I would love to see a breakdown, but nobody seems to know. Hmmm. And all the shooter gets is a plastic trophy (maybe) and a tee shirt (maybe).

I don’t think it will affect restricted state shooters when going to nationals. The national will be in a free state. So soon as the CA shooter gets off the plane, he can just go to Sheels or Academy or wherever and buy a few standard mags. He can give them away or sell them cheap after the match. All legal and he gets to shoot 15rd division capacity at nationals.

Nils Nils love the 15 round capacity. But here's the real question where can I get me some Canik shirts. Help!!👍

I would have preferred them leave it at 10. I don't thing participation will increase much. I think leaving it at 10 would help people to have a division to shoot at an Area or National level when traveling from a mag ban state like you pointed out. We will see if production numbers increase with the change.

Nah, 10 rounds was just fun in stage planning. And doubt it'll change in participation as CO are just more fun due to less mag changes and the optics itself.

USPSA shooters like going pew and pewing as fast as possible. Every change toward that end has resulted in an increase in that division's participation. More rounds/less reloads = more pew. Expect increase in participation.

I agree with you. Why limit a production gun when majority of them come with 15-17 round magazines. Why downgrade 90% of the competition just because 10% can have more than 10 rounds. Honestly I think they should eliminate limited 10. Just make it limited and they can run 10 rounds in the restricted states. Pcc, open, limited, and carry optics have bigger than 10 round limits and this is no problem.

Then all Production classifiers should require a mandatory reload before 10 to even the playing field in capacity restricted states.

10 round in Australia......

All the limited 10 guys i know dont care with 8 shots from any position it is still a mag change.

I just got into the idea of even shooting competitively and immediately my first instinct was production and as soon as I saw 10rd mag capacity, I said I rather just shoot open then till I can buy a race gun. Long winded way of saying “I agree with you.”

Funny they went to 15 rounds to align with IPSC... but didn't adopt the IPSC 5.5lb trigger pull requirement.

IDPA should,do the same, across the board.

IDPA already did this for SSP, and it did not significantly improve participation. What's wrong with multiple reloads anyway?

Area 3 person here. I have no representative at USPSA. Production is effectively dead where I am. Crowd has moved on to optics. Doubt that magazine capacity will change that. For the occasional new person that shows up and shoots Production, magazine capacity is not really an issue.

Personality I liked the old rule.. but that’s the game I played was the rise of production class. Been doing carry optics outlaw recently wanting to do limited optic. The group I shot with would get together and just shoot a certain class for a match one mate a year it was revolver just to do it

Going to 15 negates some of the skill of doing mag changes and emphasizes just shooting fast. for us in the restricted states this will also limit the classifier stages and we must only use ones with mandatory reloads. Otherwise we get crushed. This has created an uneven playing field. I could give two hoots about nationals majority of membership is in the A,B, C classes shooting local and sectional matches.

It's a non issue in Washington, everyone already has mags and you can buy them.out of state as there's basically no way to enforce the law.

You always have a choice move to a free state

I don’t understand why don’t take more into consideration the direct opinions and suggestions from the masses that participate , seems their constantly in a disconnected state with the shooters ; in idpa they have 15 rd limit and that hasn’t increased participation in the division at all , most still shoot carry optics , I wish idpa would update their CO rules as the whole practice is oriented around concealed carry , most of us carry with a dot and magwell and such , just bc I have a magwell shouldn’t bump me to open when guys are running comps in CO

My opinion. 15 rd limit in production won’t save division. My suggestions: 1. Combine LO/CO 2. Create Production Optics with 15 round limit. If goal is to make entry into USPSA more accessible, affordable, etc. This seems like logical step. “RED DOT” not round capacity makes CO and LO popular in my opinion. Production Optics seems way to go.

It saddens me that WA is one of "those" states.

Unfortunetly production division has been haemorrhaging shooters to other divisions in IPSC as well, mainly production optics. Its not unique to USPSA

It will do nothing for participation in production.

Joe Biden won’t like this idea of a 15 round clip 😂

So what happens when someone from MA goes to the airport and has their equipment checked within eyesight of the State Police, and gets busted with 15 round mags? And why should USPSA care if the production division is losing shooters? They aren't losing shooters overall are they? They are just changing divisions. I'm sure that you live in a capacity friendly state, I don't, so you have no idea of the stress shooters are under to stay out of jail. You also say that we can just switch to another division like single stack if we want to be compliant. You fail to mention, that unlike you, we are not sponsored and cannot afford to drop a few grand for a new gun and equipment. I like you as a shooter, but strongly disagree with your comments and the BOD's decision. You probably just should have made the announcement and left out your personal comments.