I used iq7+ for my 14.7kw DIY install in AZ. 295w max output on those micros. I have 400 watt jinko panels. I debated getting the next inverters up but when I learned more about clipping, I decided to stick with iq7+. It's not just about the peak clips, but Enphase engineering told me the smaller inverters are slightly more efficient during the ramp up to full sun. So a clipping calculation is very complex. The gains and losses on the curves are dynamic. Enphase has a detailed white paper on the subject with many real world tests. Their product selection tool where you enter exact panels and see what micros are acceptable was built based on that data.
Was it easy to DYI, looking for the same in Spain, although I'm not trilled about the clipping thingy, now with the 540W in place...How happy are you with the panels?
I'm an installer in France. Biggest problem with Enphase is the lack of programmable outputs. Fronius on the other hand has contacts that we use for switching water heaters, pool pumps, car chargers, etc
This is key, we also do same with Kostal & SMA Home manager. Additionally of the limited capacity on PV modules suitable for this output in sunny countries as Spain
When using the IQ8H-240-72-2-US IQ8H and having the solar panel (REC REC410AA PURE-R) outputting the maximum it could produce was only 376 watts, since the output of the panel is 384 who cares if the panel is rated at 410 watts or whatever, the only thing you worry about is what that panel can actually produce in your specific location given it's current mounting angle etc. So it seems like your forgot to mention that in many cases clipping is not an actual issue. In fact installers purposely over panel on purpose to hopefully achieve at least 85-90% of the Panel's actual stated maximum wattage output.
That’s a crazy cool set up. The 410 pure and an iq8h. Definitely a rare set up. The majority of people getting the 8s are getting an 8 or 8+ with a generic 400+ watt panel. For a long time no one could even get there hands on the Hs.
Panels' temperature coefficient is an important criterium you are not taking into account: 400+ watts is ONLY achieved under ideal lab conditions of 25 celsius (77 °F). Under real-world rooftop conditions on a sunny day (especially in the sunbelt) panels will easily reach over 100°F. When you consider temp coeff of 0.35% ( industry average ), watt output will drop significantly: at 38 celsius (13 degrees over 25), the wattage loss will be: 13 x 0.35% = 4.55% In other words, a 400w rated panel will only output 381 max wattage. Something that an IQ8H can maximize. Add to that the conversion loss ( micro inverter efficiency of 96%), and you will only get about 365 watts. With cheaper panels, you need more panels (and microinverters, and therefore more roof space too) to get the desired real wattage output from your system. Therefore, your total system cost may not be significantly better. Just saying.
What everyone is saying is true but when 600w + single panels are now available in California,Az, New Mexico,etc they are going to push 500+ watts even in high temps why would you consider a 300+ panel when 600+ watts are available?
You have to remember that, lets say, a 400W panel (nominal, Standard Test Conditions) will NEVER output 400W in real life, we have noticed that practically all panels will output (in real life) in average 100W less than is STC rating...
Enphase is all we use.. Never have had an issue with "Clipping" - Most panels will never fully output their potential for an entire day. All in All Great Review.
The maximum output worried me out too, but it turns out not to matter that much. A 400W panel may never even reach the 300W limit under real-world conditions, thanks to roof angle, temperature, and whatever else - the nameplate rating is only for perfect conditions. There is no point matching 400W inverter to a 400W panel if the production never gets there. The 300W output ends up being pretty realistic for many projects.
I’m still conflicted. Here in Utah we have cold sunny weather and solar panels will frequently output more then there STC wattage when paired with optimizers. Temperature coefficient is definitely good and bad.
Yeah I disagree on that one. Come talk to me out here in California where it’s sunny all day. If you have 30 panels on the roof and you’re short 100 W per panel that adds up.
@@TurreTuntematon I undstand we have the STC vs the NOC for solar panels, but on a per panel basis that adds up to be a lot of loss. Epecilaly since its not disclosed by Enphase. Even using your numbers, 30 panels (my array) at 30w per panel that's 900w! Thats huge over the lifetime of the panels which is 25 years.
@@ushipb00 You need to consider that the panels would ONLY produce at the maximum wattage for a VERY SHORT period, id, midday or so. During the other times of the day, the overload factor, by using those 400+W panels with a 300Wmax microinverter would benefit you. In 99,9% of the installations, the maximum capacity of the panels is greater than the capacity of the inverter/microinverter. As said before, matching 10 kWp with a 10kW inverter is a waste of money on the long run.
For example, a typical Enphase IQ8+ microinverter is rated for a peak output power of 300 VA and an input power of 235-440+ W, meaning you can install it on a solar panel with a minimum of 235 W and a maximum of around 440 W power output.
De micro in your hand is an older version of the IQ7 generation. Only the older version of the IQ7 generation did have the separate plug for the MC4 connector.
What is your favorite inverter then because I have heard SolarEdge failure rate is very high over the last couple of years and I am hearing this from the bulk of local installers here is Massachusetts.
I have 400-watt solar panels with IQ8 micro inverters and while listening to your explanation concerning clipping I got a bit confused. You say the output wattage of the solar panel let's say is 400 watts and the output of the IQ8 is 300 watts I wonder how the output wattage of the microinverter is calculated. Why because it is my understanding the output of the microinverter is AC. The input to the micro inverter is DC, from the solar panels. Is this correct and are the calculations right?
Panel wattage is tested in perfect lab conditions at a given temperature which is called your STC rating and that is the wattage that is marketed. Many panels have a NOCT rating that is much closer to the numbers you will actually see once installed. It is quite common for 405 watt panels to only be able to output 300 or 310 watts only during peak generation times at peak sun. So your 400 watt panels are never getting 400 watts and are rarely even hitting their NOCT ratings. So clipping if it does occur is very infrequent if the inverter was sized properly to your panel. You might only lose 2% of generation an hour or so a day if clipping does occur. And the cost to going to a larger inverter typically is not a good return on investment if your clipping is minimal. And it should be in your installer did his homework.
It depends. My 395 watt Canadian Solar panels installed north of Seattle often produce between 320 and 340 watts. Sometime 355 or 360. But they face south on an 8/12 pitch. If they faced west or east, it could be a different story. But theres no way I would want them with IQ8+ that output no more than 300 watts peak. If its a cool sunny day in March, they produce more. Hot day in August, less. But for a few dollars more, I get AP Systems DS3L that output 386 watts per channel.
Do you need to match the panel wattage with the inverters? All panels I’ve been seeing are 400w. But would a panel ever really max out? Seems that a leaf falls on the panel and it drops 40%
Thank you. I just learned about the IQ8s being grid forming and I was confused at the rated output vs the input. Some of which can go up to 540 W panels. I learned from other comments of inefficiencies from heat and conversion, but I think they are overlooking what you said which is panels are becoming more efficient while still maintaining the same footprint. That's a lot of loss. I don't understand the tech of micro-inverters, but these seem limited. They seem best used in residential and even then residential that have shaded roofs. If you had 400 W panels, you'd have to spend $250 per panel lol. That's crazy. $180 if you want to max your output around 300 W.
Are you sure please. My installer is insistent that each string is limited to 10x 440W panels. So is limiting me to 2 strings of 10 panels. Saying that the cabling on the string can only handle 16A and each IQ8 outputs max 1.5A.
Brand new subscriber here with a couple very important questions: 1.) I have an off grid home with no batteries. I have a perfectly large a south facing roof for solar panels. I use an efficient and quiet generator at night and don't want batteries. So, ...... can I use solar panels and Enphase IQ8? to run my house during the day or do I need something else? How do I do that? 2.) Does Enphase make an IQ8? that allows me to (for example) connect four solar panels to one Enphase micro inverter or do I have to purchase an IQ8? for each solar panel ? Thank you.
Few more cons:More conversions with battery setups(dc->ac->dc->ac) and you pay for more inverters in the batteries. More connections (read: failure points) than string inverters. Thanks for the vids.
What do you mean more points of failure? If a micro converter goes down you lose out put to one panel. If your string inverter goes out you lose the entire system...
@@theripper121 how many parts are in a system. if theres 40 mc4 connectors then there's at least 40 parts. I believe you are talking about Single points of failure. This is different. I agree a string inverter has single points of failure. but fewer parts means more simplicity which can sometimes be easier to engineer a failover/backup/extra parts supply. More parts generally means more places and ways the system as a whole can fail. I have more to say if you want to discuss.. but I understand if you just think I'm wrong and don't want to discuss.
your reference to the maximum output of the iq8 being 245 watts is inaqurate. the sheet shows a maximum output of 245 volts AC not watts. the maximum input of watts is 235-350 watts. so in my configuration with a 345 watt panel and an iq8 microinverter the panel delivers the full 345 watts to the iq8 under ideal conditions and the iq8 outputs 240 volts AC. I don't see a problem here.
Nice review of enphase. I had no idea they had that wattage issue. Can their micro inverters dump the clipped energy into their updated battery like solar edge or is it just purely wasted? 400 watt panels is standard now who would really wanna buy below 400 W when solar panels like Q cell for Tesla is the base standard now?
A 400 watt rated panel only produces that wattage in a perfect test environment. Look up STC rating and NOTC ratings. A 400 watt panel up on roof hot from the sun may only generate 300-310 watts of power at peak sun output. As long as your IQ8 series inverter is sized correctly you will not clip period or only at peak. The lose if there is any tends to be minimal. Enphase has several inverters in the IQ8 series the higher you go up in price the more current can be accepted. There is the I8, the +, M, H, A. If you are truly worried about clipping you can just step up to the next converter in their lineup.
@@theripper121 what about the monitoring ?.. most say solaredge monitoring is superior. .. I am going to use rec410aa pure so is enphase iq8+ sufficient?
@@memopadilla5931 Hard to say what will be the most beneficial to you without knowing your location, shading, roof pitch, azimuth, the price differences between the iq8+ and say iq8m or H from your installer, your cost per kilowatt for electricity and whether or not you are on net metering. All those have to be factored in to make an informed decision. I am having rec405 panels installed next week with iq8+ inverters and with my calculations using pvwatts and their system advisor model I will clip some using those inverters but the cost difference of going to the larger inverters is not worth it on the payback schedule to spend more to offset the little bit of clipping the first few years I will have. It's something that you must discuss critically with your installer.
Question: is the reduction in power linear, in other words the inverter produces some 75 % of whatever the panel produces, or does it only cut off anything the panel produces above the inverter capacity?
Glad some one mentioned the panel wattages outpacing micro inverters. Lets not forget that the Envoy/Communication device and Combiner box are warrantied for only 5 years. And Enphase requires the MI's to be connected to the internet 100% of the time for warranty. Not everyone has internet... And theirs having to get on the roof to remove solar panel(s) to replace MIs. And to say the MI has a 25 year from a company that first product was released 15 years ago, and those products have and are failing, puts it in a realistic perspective.
I agree with the clipping progrem. have a small installation (Array A: 4 x 325W panels with M250 microinverters / Array B: 2 x 455W panels with IQ7+ microinverters). Between 11:00 and 13:00 array B was clipping at 600W. So I recently swapped my IQ7+ for IQ8HA and now I'm getting more than 600W between 11:00 and 14:00, up to 700W at around 13:00. I am still not getting the full 455W the panel is capable for, but at least now I am wasting a little less energy.
I am a DIY person and would like to know if it would be possible to use the IQ eight inverter with a series of three 12 V deep cycle batteries to create power back to the grid. Is that possible?
For cost, it's best talked about trying to do a return calculation on that cost. Since this relates to utilities, someone using power is guaranteed and pretty predictable. So comparing that return with any kind of local/gov't incentives and local cost of energy (some guess around inflation on energy prices) and then comparing it to some kind of high rated debt that lasts 20-30 yrs could be appropriate for most people. A lot of numbers I've seen with people in various locations have been quite favorable to installing a home system. Also, I think some people like the idea of actually charging their stuff with known green energy rather than a likely dirtier power source on the grid or having some kind of backup system if power goes down. Both of those things might push people towards using an Enphase product rather than not. I do agree with some other comments about solar panels actually reaching some theoretical maximum input and that maximum only being available for part of the day and maybe also on just the sunniest days. Also consider the Enphase products themselves are rapidly progressing have more premium options and do have the option of matching a very beefy solar panel install (granted I bet that's not most people.) I think it depends on the solar installer, who might recommend not using the most advanced solution, depending on the person's needs/budget.
Yikes. Thanks for the video. I was just about to pull the trigger on a DiY setup with 17 enphase IQ8+, and 400w panels. I live in Colorado so I get cool days and intense sun. I'd hate to be losing 100w....that's insane. So does it actually hard cut at 300w and...that's it? If so, what options do you recommend I look at instead of this? I literally had everything in my cart ready to buy....so I'd have to find something non-enphase? Or should I just upgrade to their highest inverter and spend more?
400w rating is "electrical" as in saftey. You NEVER hit those numbers in the real world. Look at the panel NOCT rating, then pick a micro who's continous rating is a hair lower than that that. iq8+ is probably fine.
Would I be able to do two separate strings of 14 panel 400w with iq8+ and a third string using higher rated iq8's than the + and combine the three or do they all have to be the same? I'd need a combiner box with an envoy and three breakers, a quick, fused shut off box, and the unit that communicates via WiFi and Bluetooth correct?
In South Africa we have this very same issue... Everyone wants 550W panels, a 425W panel is considered too small. This makes no sense to me as my four year old 330W panels still work perfectly.
The clipping his not an issue, driving the microinverters hard, they work better… they also start producing usable power at lower light levels. orientation of the panels to due South and matching the angle the panels are mounted at to your lattitude is way more important (mine face 182 degress, mounted at 41 degrees (which is very close to my lattitude). I have a 10KW system, its producing 85KW/day, using 365W panels on 250W maximum IQ7’s. I was very concerned about the clipping initialy as well, turns out to not be an issue, at all. BTW, this is in New England, Massachusetts, we are not known for our abundance of large # of solar producing hours/day
Would I be right in thinking that a 3 phase supply shouldn't have a problem with 22 X 440w panels/microinverters? The 20amp/13 panel limit scared me for a minute, can anyone confirm? I've checked with Enphase and they recommend the IQ7A for the panels I'm looking at but one guy has suggested IQ8 HC for a 8/10 kWh system (probably 8, maybe 10 if the numbers show too much clipping). Any thoughts on whether the 8 is the way to go? I know they can add the ability to keep the lights on but we've decided we can live without that.
I think this video really misses the mark. First, the old M series microverters did have significant hardware failures. To say that they were very reliable is not true. Second, the biggest problem with the IQ8 is they do effectively nothing more than the IQ7 in a grid interactive scenario. You need a very expensive system controller to get sunlight only back up which provides only very limited backup capability. You really need batteries to have a robust backup system. And if you have batteries, again the IQ7 will do essentially the same thing as the IQ8 at a lower cost. Finally, in a backup scenario, you are limited to 64A of inverter output with the IQ8. That goes up to 96A with the IQ7 series. So if we are going to talk about pros and cons about the IQ8, it is important to be accurate and complete.
It is a nice product but it is not the best. I have had 4 of 12 fail and there is zero support. Their so called "engineers" are in India and only know what the computer screen in front of them says. They will respond to you once every 3 days, so plan on it taking a while. Excuses have been "it's an issue with the grid", grid issues would affect 12 of 12. "You misused it", not sure how I could misuse 4 of 12 considering that you can only plug them in one way. It has been such a terrible experience that I am considering removing all Enphase components and switching to Solaredge.
I use AP Systems DS3L microinverters. They do fail from time to time, but not bad, and tech support answers the phone and sends out a new one. 386 watts per panel output.
The problem is solar irradiation on panel at given location, not the inverter ! Solar panel rated 400W will never ever produce exact 400W !!! When new, it does produce around 350W at peak solar noon close to equator line and less in the mornings and afternoons ! When 5-10 years old same panel loosing about 20% ! Another factor is heat, the hotter the panel the less production ! When hot 200F plus the panel is losing about 40% its efficiency ! Enphase has a great technology, but solar cells are far behind ....we need 80% efficient cells not 20% !
To minimize the impact of heat, search out panels that had a very low power coefficient of temperature. Some of the best ones feature -0.26 % per degree C. Cheapie panels are upwards of -0.37 % per degree C. Work out the numbers and you can see what you'd be wasting. If your system design is optimal, you can really score maximal performance year round. I have 19 y/o panels and they are down less than 10%, so that 20% is probably a guess... as is the 40% number. Got measurement numbers to prove it? Curious minds want to know! 🥴
Micro inverters match the frequency of the grid so if they are supplied power from a battery and inverter they will match that signal and feed your ac circuit with power.
