I've been using Sinclair, found that using the Neck Turning with .002 is just right for my 6.5 Creedmoor setup. Run the Forster Custom honed die that's .2875, bump .001, then the .262 turning mandrel with dry lube, chamfer/deburr lightly, clean neck with alcohol wipe, prime, powder, load to 20 thousandths off the lands, and presto..... Usually sub 10 on the ES, and in the low 2-4 SD. YMMV~
I like the 21st-century Version of this for two reasons: because the company offers different sized mandrels for every caliber, not just one size. Also, the mandrel floats, allowing it to self-center and avoid concentricity problems.
L.E. Wilson makes top notch tools, but I still prefer the floating mandrel system found in the 21st Century and Sinclair expander dies, I’m theory, it self centers with the brass without risk of adding runout.
Whidden sizer dies have a replaceable nitrided steel expander mandrel also and they come with a shoulder bump gauge to set up your die on a single stage press. I’m impressed by how many precision reloaders get consistent world class results without going the bushing die route. Is it just me - or are fewer precision reloaders messing around with bushing dies these days???
So I was under the impression that you want at least 2 thousands neck tension? If I am reading the Lee Wilson sizes right. For instance a .308 bullet you would want a .306 neck tension. But the lee Wilson only does .3075. So can someone tell me if I am wrong or what?
I have been using an expanding mandrel die as the last step for case prep for a while. Much more consistent velocities on the chrono, significantly lower spread. I am a fan.
What does this offer the Sinclair doesn't already do better? The Sinclair has just about every size out there, most of them in carbide, Titanium Nitride or atleast stainless steel, the least preferred. Plus they are in 2 different neck tensions, 0.001 & 0.002.
That’s some great numbers. Would love to see a comparison of loads built using the Wilson mandrel die vs loads built without it using competition dies or something like Redding type s but no mandrel expander. Would love to see the difference in sd numbers and down range accuracy difference
Great video as usual. When it started I thought great, back to basics. Then you moved into stuff I could never afford. It's good though to acquire the knowledge of what's needed to get ultimate accuracy.
So with fired brass. Take decamping - expander ball rod out of sizing die. Size brass, use expanding mandrel to get consistent neck dia and tension. Is this right?
I've been using the 21st Century mandrels for a few years. If you think the mandrels make a big difference on regular ammo, give them a go on subsonics. The lower powder charges and case fill magnify all the little tolerance stacks, especially neck tension.
I'm trying the new L.E. Wilson expanding mandrel and the neck concentricity is terrible, adds another .001 - .003 when measuring run-out. Maybe the Sinclair or 21Century is a better choice?
Hi Gavin. I have always found your demonstrations very helpful, but this time I must report a problem I followed your instructions step by step with the result that the inside of the neck is scratched. I believe that this unfortunate inconvenience is solely due to the choice of lubricant. Imperial Dry Neck Lube is absolutely not suitable. It's better to use Imperial Sizing Die Wax to be distributed evenly on the inside of the neck with a Q-tip. As for the traces of brass on the mandrel (further evidence that the recommended lubricant is not suitable), they can be removed with 1000 grit sandpaper by placing the end of the mandrel in a portable power screwdriver turning at 180 RPMs for a few seconds.
Gavin, question, I'm attempting to reduce and eliminate case neck runout as much as possible- would this expanding mandrel help me achieve that goal? I've tried other things and they have helped, but not to the point I'd like to be at.-Thank You!
For brand new brass, I use a mandrel, neck turning kit from K&M Precision. Then I use the Wilson bushing die and full length resize, have not seen any benefit from using fire formed brass. Shooting about a 1/8 inch group at 100. Bartlein 30 barrel, Barnard P action, McMillan 50cal stock, 6.5x284, IOR Valdada scope 2nd focal plane, 8x36x42 schott glass, Lapua brass. Will be testing the new Nosler 140 grain grain bullets soon with Hodgdon Hybrid 100V.
The LE Wilson advertise these sets are for new brass. Can these be used as a replacement for reloading all brass including once fired? I am looking for a neck sizing solution besides the ball in my sizing die.
Loading as accurately as possible is obviously the goal. but will this have a proportionate affect on a less pressision built rifle. I understand the short answer is yes. but is it a worthwhile addition when starting out and someone like me would weigh the extra for what seems you current favorite the foster coax or a cheaper rock chucker so components like this can be purchased.
Hey Gavin, Check out Mighty Armory it’s been clutch mandrel setup with full length size! They are coming out with the 6mm variants but have been so great quality and consistency with exceptional low SD and ES. Just a good for thought, plus Wayne the owner is 100% involved he responds to all customers.
Just to be clear, this mandrel is for new brass only? I use my Lee Collet die for expanding and setting neck tension for new and fired brass. If the one featured here has only one application I would go for the Lee. Enjoyed the vid.
I don't believe it is since you shrink the neck every time you use a FL die. Just make sure the neck is clean. You are over working the neck more than a normal expander ball with this thing so you might run into cracking faster if you aren't annealing
Thx for the video I was having to use some force to reload for a .224 Valkyrie AR and was getting that heavy ring around the ogive you were talking about What would you recommend because I have to use a RCBS small base sizing die taking the expander ball off to resize and deprime the run it through this LE Wilson die or like a Redding bushing die I thought it was happening because I was compressing the load but a few off the bullets 88gr ELD's seated right in with no resistance at all like their wasn't enough neck tension but those particular bullets had no ring dent around the ogive at all and seated to far using a Forster precision micrometer die thx
I like the window in this die. I've been using the 21Century expanding die and their titanium nitride coated mandrels in 6.5 and .22 calibers, they work very well.
I also use the 21st Century mandrels. The coating reduces friction without lube. I’ve never been concerned about depth, I want the neck expanded entirely. So I don’t understand the need for the window?
Great video sir I don’t use the Wilson expander die but I do use the Lyman M-Die with the dry neck lube I’m trying to save up the money for a lab radar unit maybe one day I’ll have one
Hey Gavin, would yo remove de expander on your full sizer die and then run the brass through the LE Wilson or is it just for new brass? I sometimes feel like the neck tension is way to high depending on the brass
Would I FL resize without an expander ball, then run my FL resized brass through the expander mandrel? How do you calculate neck tension this way? Just take before and after the use of the expander mandrel inside of the neck measurements?
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Great review. I could not agree more with the statement that "manufacturers under-size the necks." Working with brand new brass I religiously expand the necks for the first firing. Personally I am satisfied with my 21st Century die that is an obvious necessity for my 21st Century neck turning lathe (and my latest edition the 21st 3 way trimmer) I think the window that they added is very good feature... kuddos for that. My 21st die in the co-ax has the ring at the bottom of the die and I had slowly walk it in as to not over do it. Needed to use a Permatex Prussian Blue to ensure that I did not push the brass too far in... it was tedious! Not sure why they stopped at 7mm... they don't have a mandrel for 30 cal ... 338 ? Why would they limit their marketing to a max 7mm?
I set my forming die to just neck size any new cases in my hunting rifles, trim to the correct over all length, re-cut the primer pockets and de-burr the internal flash hole, load, and then fire form them. For my tight chambered 6 mm ppc I obviously size new brass in the custom machined dies my gunsmith built and then neck turn to the chambers neck dimension -.001". That Federal 6 mm ppc brass I use does have very good tolerance for average neck wall thickness. The more normal name brand hunting caliber brass does show a fair amount of inconsistency in the necks and that will affect the neck tension to varying amounts and positions on the neck walls more than the expanding die can fix. If you want or need better then neck turning wouldn't be optional. So I can't see any possible gain this new die would give me. And while I've yet to ever find any, neck sizing all new brass is a double check for any possible over size brass on any of it's dimensions. A factory defect can get missed in QC by even the best manufacturers. If it runs through the die I know for sure all of it will chamber just fine. Quoting that .0005" number on the digital calipers display as if it means something is just about pointless. A bit of research on Starett's or Mitutoyo's websites will prove that. Digital displays on calipers with that .0005" digit measure and round either up or down to that nearest half 10th number. So let's say your display shows 2.0105". The internal electronics could be measuring an object that's actually somewhere between 2.0103" - 2.0107" but it will still only display it as that 2.0105". That's an unknown size deviation of up to .0004" right there. Add in the "allowable" and world wide industry standards for metrology equipment of being accurate and repeatable to + - one count for both analog and digital equipment. That's another and again completely allowable accuracy deviation from the true measurement of up to .001". Yes most well made metrology equipment should be better than that maximum allowed, and most of it I've checked against my gauge blocks will usually show about half the allowed amount. Only once have I found one item towards the upper end of that allowed deviation. I've also checked myself and my measurement techniques enough times against those gauge blocks with my Mit calipers to know more than well that using even slightly inconsistent methods can show accuracy deviations of over .001" The average pair of 6" digital calipers simply can't and aren't designed nor meant to provide .0005" accuracy. There mechanical design alone prevents that. A micrometer will provide far more accuracy due to it's heavy rigid frame and direct line between the fixed anvil and it's measuring spindle. Just because any tool can display that 1/2 10ths number should NOT be confused as being that tools accuracy level. That's the tools resolution or how many digits there are to the right of the decimal point. It's repeatable accuracy is something completely different and that's not related to it's resolution. There's also the well known uncertainty of measurement problem that also plays a part in the obtainable accuracy any metrology tool can deliver. My solar powered Mit calipers are the smoothest, most accurate and repeatable calipers I've ever had in my hands. They should be since they cost almost $200. But I wouldn't bet real money on trusting there measurements to less than about .002" - .003" under average shop conditions. Yes they will do better and again I've proved to myself they can if I do my part, but there's just enough random inconsistency to not fully trust them to any tighter accuracy levels than that. With a good name brand set of calipers you'll find 3 distinct and different terms used in the instructions they came with. Accuracy, Repeatability, and that Resolution. There will also be numbers listed beside each one. That's the tested & obtainable accuracy that tool had in a brand new condition just before it left the factory. While it's linked to a tools accuracy level that repeatability number is also a reflection of the manufacturing quality and the mechanical design the tool has. So that 1/2 10ths resolution and it's digit is meaningless enough it should be ignored.
Would be interested to know what the bullet ogive runout, i.e bullet concentricity figure is with the Wilson die. Is there any concentricity improvement over the tighter neck factory brass and conventional expander button in a de-cap/expander die. Excellent S.D results nevertheless.
I'd be curious to know if the mandrel can be used in the full length Wilson sizing die. Wilson said they "cannot recommend EITHER way", so it tells me they want to sell a separate mandrel die for it.
I have 2-dies that I used for the 6.5 Grendel. But one of them can't do the job right. One is Hornady, and the other is a LEE. I use the lee because it a little better than the Hornady
On the Alpha Munitions brass, how is the concentricity of the necks? How is the consistency of the neck thickness? Do you compete with fire formed reloads?
Do you have to neck turn when using a expander mandrel? What’s the process? FL size without mandrel. Then put brass through expander die with expander mandrel? Thanks!!
If they would only offer variable neck tensions for different calibers.. this die is by far the nicest one offered compared to some of the others but it socks you can't get more variance for neck tension
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Wilson has substantially less calibers than Sinclair (no large caliber above .338 for example) and Wilson is a bit more expensive $55 for Wilson, $33 for Sinclair. Also Sinclair offers a wider variety of mandrels: stainless steel, carbide, tin coated, many more calibers ranging from.17 to .50
I just started reloading 224 Valkyrie and have experienced just what you stated with undersized case neck being tight. You can really feel it when seating your bullet. So I ordered the LE Wilson expanding mandrel die and hope to have similar results as you. Thanks
I need set. I am having problems loading my custom 6mm284.. I am sizing down 6.5284 not a brass. Been reloading 50 years. This is only caliber.to ever give me problems .I load from 17 rem.up to 7stw.no problem
A regular sizing die with expander ball can produce a too-small neck ID if your brass has thick neck walls. Then when the expander ball is pulled out of the case, the neck can be stretched quite a bit. Either the Lee collet die or this mandrel will give you a neck ID that you choose and won't stretch the neck.
@@ronniebaker3036 I went to the L.E. Wilson site. they were only showing 1 size pre caliber. 21st century reloading has a die for about $35-42, and the mandrels are about $21 each. They have a TON of sizes per caliber to suit your needs.
I been thinking about getting one. It’s very frustrating having your hand loads not being Consistent, weekend after weekend trying to get Similar data but never works out that way
I know i can fix it in different ways, but i would like for it to work correktly when i buy it. Didnt know about the forester set screws, have to check that out.
