I follow you for few months and I am impressed by your constant search for better. Better method, better time schedule, different approach to baking. You are so much unlike other bakers that use to stick to just one method. Most of the tutorials I saw before you were of that kind: "this is my recipe, this is my method, follow me and you will make perfect bread". When I first discovered your channel I was impressed by your scientific approach. Exact measuring of everything including temperature... So many people think that eyeballing is acceptable in kitchen :-) I was then surprised by your "art and alchemy" series. I admit I liked "scientific Tom" more not only because he was so different from others, but because I simply like that scientific approach to baking too. But I agree that baking is maybe not art but for sure craft and breads are different also because bakers are different. But this video really impressed me because it shows how you like real scientist are not satisfied with what you already achieved but always search for better. Better method, better time schedule... I like that you do not stick to just Tartine method and do not try to make it perfect but research and try different things instead. I also appreciate that you do not pretend to be perfect and record and publish even mistakes and fails. My problem however is that I follow Tartine method but I modified it by doing autolyse, not fermentolyse, and using stand mixer. So basically I am making basic mistake of which you warned in one of your videos - not to combine different methods but pick up one and follow it exactly. Since I do not have the book I only learned it from your videos and you never use stand mixer. Even in this video you mix the dough just using bench knife. I tried working the dough by hands, I even tried that Bertinet´s slap and fold method but I really prefer using a mixer since I have it should deserve it´s place on kitchen counter. I however have a problem guessing how long and at what speed should I be mixing the dough. I watched many tutorials using stand mixer and did many own tests. Tried mixing the dough anywhere from 1 minute to 15 minutes, or interval mixing with 5 mins intervals between mixing to avoid overheating the dough. Using your words, I am getting decent results, but not perfect. Is there a chance you will ever do a video using stand mixer? Once again, thank you a lot for your great work that really helped me to become better baker. Actually, my family and friends thank you too :-)
Thank you so much for the feedback. I do not have a stand mixer so I cannot do any tests at this time. I will do some research on the topic. I believe short mixing times (2 minutes on slow speeds) with rest times are what would work best. Maybe 5-6 minutes total mixing time with 5-minute rests? That’s where I would begin.
I use an Ankarsrum mixer when I want to make 5 loaves that each weigh 2 lbs or more. It handles it very eassily and doesn't walk off the counter. I'll mix for 8-10 minutes dependingg on the hydration but will also include 2 S&Fs 30 minutes apart.. If only making 2 loaves, I make my dough by hand. If you just get the dough to have an ok window pane, you are good. Best of luck.
So I followed this technique twice now and it's a life-saver for me! I've been doing soudough for a few months and I've been overfermenting way too much. This method is great for people who don't spend much time at home, but also for newbies who don't quite know when to stop bulk fermentation (the hardest step if you ask me). This way it bulk ferments perfectly everytime and I have so much more freedom. Also, I have a hard time foccusing on my work, so trying to do anything while fighting the urge to check my dough constantly was pretty hard. I don't know if I'll keep using this method during the winter but I'll definitely be using it all summer long.
I would like to thank you. After about ten loaves I finally produced a "Perfect" loaf of sourdough this weekend. I've learned so much from you. Thank you
I just happened to do Fermentus Interruptus without knowing it last night out of desperation because at midnight I wasn’t finished bulk fermenting and was falling asleep on the couch. Threw the dough in the fridge and took it out to finish this morning when it finally reached about 25% vol increase. It was a crap shoot at the time but after watching this perhaps I did okay. I’ll find out when I bake them off over the next couple days! Thanks for your videos, I really enjoy them and have learned a lot.
Thanks I love that method, but to do it in 3 hours the dough temp needs to be 80F/27C. At lower temps, the dough needs about 6 hours before the fridge, but I haven’t tested it at lower dough temps.
I started sourdough with cold ferment and couldn't do it any other way. My bread is loved by many. Before I even knew the science, I knew it worked. Thanks for verifying what our family already knew🎉
Love me some solid scientific method plus wild variables and subjective opinions! Well-rounded instruction, Tom. You are a TEACHER, which is not as common as one might think given the many, many sourdough tutorials on YT. Theory and method enrich understanding, and that leads to a more intelligent experience in the kitchen. Wish I'd found you during the pandemic when I resurrected my bread making journey from decades earlier. I'm now on Day 7 of a new starter. It hasn't gone bad, but it's not growing ... yet. I'm SO wanting to make bread, but need to wait for my starter to mature. I consider her in gestation and won't name her until she's "born." Just coddling her, making sure she's fed good stuff and kept warm (78F in proofer). Wish me growth!
You always seem so serious in your videos. At time stamp ~34m40s you revealed your sense of humor. How about a little more? It left me with laughter and a smile on my face. Thanks for your great work.
Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate people who get my humor. Check out this clip at 24:58 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sFO532C3EAM.html
I love the fact that you gave Trevor a shout out. He helped me tremendously in the beginning of my sourdough journey. I often use his recipes and Maurizio’s (from the perfect loaf). In my hotter months like now, i simply ferment my dough for 2,5hrs then stick it in the fridge until the next day. I had similar experience of your second loaf with my chinese sourdough with rice flour. It gave me a scare that i might kill my starter but when i steam my cake, it was just fine.
I so appreciate finding your videos and have watched the fermentation one at least 4 times and it changed my perspective completely! Produced my best loaves to date. I am next going to try the last teaching on fermentation in the fridge. I live in Arizona. My dough is consistently 77-80 degrees all the time! My house air is at 72. Learning about temps has been amazing. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with all of us and the books you have loved.
This video was truly amazing. Thank you! The ability to make bread despite all the schedule conflicts that kept me sidelined too often and yes...summer. I so appreciate all the content, humor and real life action you bring to each video.
I frequently "overproof" so this video looks like it might be a game changer. I did a test with the Tartine-Wilson method and it is one of the best loaves I have made in terms of crumb structure and very good flavor and texture. I only bake about twice a month so it helps a lot learning from these videos and the comparisons of different methods, times and temperatures! Thank you - I will continue to watch and learn.
Hi Tom. Thank you for the video. This is my first bake. I chose this technique because my ambient temperature is 30 Celcius. Bought the scientific incubator also. Currently doing the #3 method. Done the first 2.5hrs. Into the fridge for 24 hours, pre shape and final shaping tomorrow.
@@thesourdoughjourney it was underproof. A good learning experience. Going to improve after this. Sticky dough at the outer part at 30Celcius during bench rest. Quite challenging
Tom, thanks again for a dough life-saving lecture. I was at a loss at what to do with my over-warmed dough last night at 1 am. The way it was going, I would have to be up til 3 in the morning to shape and cold retard my dough to keep it from over fermenting. Then I saw your post on facebook. I’ve watched it before but didn’t really know that I would be utilizing this method. Well, last night was the night. I covered up my dough and tucked it in the fridge and myself to bed. Today, I brought my dough to room temperature, and it was in perfect condition. It’s now in the fridge for its cold retard. So I am confident that it’s going to be ok. Thank you for this invaluable information. Will update on how it looks after baking.
I want to thank you for this very exciting video and the tests you have done. A definite breakthrough! I am jumping in and mixing this immediately. There is never a good time as now! 👏🏻😍
Hi Tom, I find this topic so interesting, the balancing of starter amount with time and temperature. Yesterday I mixed up a batch of dough and did stretch and folds during the evening. The starter 10% was added at 5pm into 500g of flour. This morning I was surprised at how little the rise was so looked at the temperature, it had been below 15•C in my kitchen all night so I let the bulk ferment continue and kind of forgot about it! Oops! It’s had 24 hours but looked domed and jiggly, just a couple of bubbles coming up at the sides of the bowl. I’ve shaped it and put it into the Banneton, I was able to pull it into a ball and hold the ball in my open hand. I’m interested to see how this bakes up after such a low and slow bf! Thank you for the great videos 😊
Thanks! Also,check out this method. NEW! Post-Pandemic Sourdough for Busy People - The Low and Slow Method ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PL6wSOrd4L8.html
Glad you figured it out. I stumbled on it about 1 ago where I had to lv house but didn't want to lv dough on counter. So I put in refrig until I returned next day. Voila! Dough baked perfectly after shaping and refrig again.
Your timing is so perfect, Tom! This is exactly the video I needed right now on my Sourdough Journey! Thank you, thank you! You added the data and documentation to answer something I’ve been thinking about.
You're videos have really helped me in my sourdough pursuits. One thing I do to adjust temp is to have dough in a glass bowl, set it in a sink with water(warm or cold) and do a few stretches a few minutes apart. It incorporates temp changes fairly quickly.
Another thing to consider is that identical vessels don't always weigh the same. In one of your earlier videos, you were doing some weight comparisons using alexa. You made the point that you can't count on elexa being accurate with the weight of things. I completely agree. But you were zeroing your scale with one measuring cup and then weighing the product in another identical cup. I've found that my identical vessels rarely weigh the same. Maybe yours do? In any case, your work is excellent. I'm new to sourdough, and I made a lot of pancake bread before I started watching your videos. Now I can also watch other peoples videos and better understand them because of the foundation you set.
Thanks. Those are identical vessels, but I will check the weights. I’ve found with my small salt cups that they look identical but have different weights.
I'm very interested in sourdough from home milled wheat berries. I've been doing a 50/50 mix of sheppards high gluten bread flour with my ground wheat berries 1/2 hard red and 1/2 hard white using your tartine technique. They're getting pretty good, but I'm open to suggestions if you can recommend a good source. Recipe is: 250g bread flour, 125g hard white milled, 125g hard red milled, 12g salt(powdered in coffee grinder), 100g starter. I mill the wheat and sift it through a fine mesh with a dental vibratory. Then grind the bran with coffee grinder, resift, and then grind one more time. Then a couple hours before I mix ingredients, I combine the bran and the water in a mixing bowl. I'm getting an ok ear, reasonable bloom. Flavor is wonderful. Crumb could be better. Any suggestions? The fresh milled wheat adds a lot of flavor and mostly, it's more healthy.
I m the one who is living in Asia. The temperature with AC on in my living room usually between 26-28C. So many thanks to you. I will feed my starter tonight and try it very soon. 🙏🏻
Love your videos, I find that I am hearing your voice in my head when I am working on my sourdough bread. I brought the book, how to make more bread, but it is difficult to understand. I hope you make more videos on this method by Michael Kalanty for us novice bakers. So happy I found your site! Thank you!
I used your breakthrough 2 step bulk ferment. method (loaf #3) and really like the outcome! I live in very hot Sacramento California and look forward to using this method all summer long! Thank you so much for sharing your research!
Tom, Thank you so much for this video. It's extremely helpful. For any Canadians out there with the B&T Sourdough Home, President's Choice 1.8 litre Click-n-Store fits the Sourdough Home perfectly.
Loved the video!! Great that you are sharing this technique! I do want to mention that, in my experience with cold bulk, the total weight of the dough heavily influences the cooling down time in the fridge and there to warm bulk time. When I have 6KG of dough the warm bulk time is reduced to 45 min and then straight into the fridge to hit the 4c mark with a good pH dough level.
Thank you! Yes, that is a great point. I'll make that update on my website. I should have clarified that in the video. All of the temperature dynamics described in the video are specific to the batch sizes I used here.
Thank Tom! Another thorough and scientific video! This helps me figure out how to adjust the fermentation when my plans abruptly change on a Saturday (when I anticipated being home all day) I can adjust to roughly predict my change in plans vs regular method. Thanks Tom. Thank God the loaves are generally pretty forgiving
Tom, your videos are always so fascinating! Thank you for all the effort! (especially taking time to bring in Future Tom to explain a given thing) For me, making sourdough bread is akin to childhood playtime. Playing the game a little differently is keeps it fun and interesting. When I'm looking for a bread recipe, I skip over "Easiest!" and "No Knead" types. If easy was my goal, I'd follow your brother's advice.
I took a baking class that was full-time for 8 months and most days we went from mixing to baking 2-3 recipes each day, even with sourdough. The way we did this was by adding a little bit of yeast to reduce the bulk fermentation time to around 2-3 hours. Usually this was by adding 0.5% fresh baker's yeast (0.5% of total flour in recipe AKA baker's percentage). This might be frowned upon in some circles or not considered "real" sourdough, but it sure tastes real. It offers a lot of flexibility for home bakers too. Another way to reduce bulk fermentation time would be to add more starter to the recipe, although I haven't experimented with this too much. Of course reducing bulk fermentation is always a compromise and results in less flavorful bread. Anyway great video, I hadn't heard of this method.
Thank you for your video. I have been waiting for someone to verify this method for me. I use this method because of my busy schedule. It is also a great method if you live in an area with extremes in temperature. I live in Durban in South Africa where it is warm or very hot. We literally dont have the cold winters that you see in other areas. City of perpetual summer. That being said, I found the fridge bulk fermentation is more controlled temperature wise. I prevents me having to watch constantly for and stress over overfermenting my sourdough bread. I definitely recommend this method
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have an idea for a video, use it freely 😅 “sourdough for dummies” I’m so intimidated with the process. I’m actually fermenting my first loaf right now and I’m so worried I’m going to get a dense loaf.
Thanks. I plan to do a beginners video. This series is pretty good. Tartine Bread Step-by-Step : Part 1 - Beginner Mistakes and Tips ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_YBCogA32k0.html
Finished baking loaf 1, Tartine w/Wilson variation. Made it EXACTLY as outlined here. All went well except my dough was a little too sticky and flattened out more than it should prior to shaping. finished loaf was a little flat and showed evidence of underproofing. But it was creamy and tender as expected. Delicious. I feel sure the problem was that I didn’t compensate for the extreme high relative humidity here in Hawaii. I’ve since found out that Hawaii sourdough bakers sometimes reduce hydration by as much as 5-10% due to normally high relative humidity in Hawaii. I’ll bake another exactly the same but will reduce (arbitrarily) hydration and see if I can lock in on the problem. Great Journey! Replies Are Welcome!
Thanks. Your fridge may be slightly warmer than mine. Take the dough temp when it comes out of the fridge. A few degrees make a difference. And, your hydration may have been too high for your flour. Thanks for sharing.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the reply. FYI (also for those who might be interested) this was the first time I’d ever used Central Milling flours for my sourdough (always used King Arthur). So not at all familiar with hydration characteristics of CM flours. Also note that it took my leaven 15.5 hours to pass the “ready” test(s) including float, smell & percent rise.
I just made the best loaf of bread that I have ever made using the Tartine + "Wilson maneuvre" method. This will probably be how I make all my bread from now on. Thank you for this fantastic experiment!
Hey, Tom, F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S video! I am readying my starter and mise-en-place to run this Two-Step Fermentation today. I quickly became a fan of your videos after finding you just yesterday. Your technical details, your graphs, and your explanations on the why are so helpful! And, you're a fellow CLEVELANDER! Bravo! -Chris
Thanks so much Tom. I am eager to try this method. It looks like a game changer. Very exciting idea. Since beginning to bake sourdough loaves, I have encountered a few methods that made my baking easier and more dependable. Number one was understanding the science. You have helped immeasurably with that. Number two was my purchase of a stand mixer. This drastically reduced my time spent kneading dough. Number three was the stiff starter (Credit The Bread Code). This reduces starter acidity (raises pH) allowing me to go longer between starter feedings and also allows for breadmaking with inferior low protein flours. Finally we have this two-stage method which will allows me more time flexibilty. More than once I have accidentally overproofed my dough and been forced to shift to using a loaf pan to salvage my bread. Never again if I use the two-stage method.
@@thesourdoughjourney 1:1:2 (starter:water:flour) Flour is a 50:50 mix WW and bread flour. It becomes a solid mixture, but this keeps the acidity down which has been my constant nemesis over the past year. Hendrik at The Bread Code has a few videos and a blog on the subject.
Somehow without any extra steps my dough is always 78-80 degrees. That's my normal dough temp. (I do combine the ingredients in the stand mixer, so that probably warms it up a bit.) I think I can try this without a proofer! thanks for this video. Very instructive AS ALWAYS!
Just in time. As spring has arrived, our home became to warm for the TPPSBBP (Tom‘s Post Pandemic Sourdough Baking for Busy People) method. I have been experimenting with cold bulk retarding yeasted doughs for some time with great results, but never with sourdough. It never occurred to me as I thought that the lactic acid bacteria were too cold sensitive compared to yeasts. I’m looking forward to the flavor profile of the bread. This method will de-stress sourdough baking so much & free up so many weekends (part of which I intend to spend reading Michael Kalanty‘s book). Thanks a lot for the inspiration, Tom.
Thanks. It is the perfect method for summertime. I’ll probably amend the post-pandemic guide to add this as a warm weather option. I need to test it out a few more times.
That's super cool experiment. Thank you, I've learned so much! I would love to see a video on baking sourdough for lazy people. I am a beginner and lazy at the same time so it's not helping in my sourdough journey. It would be super cool to see you experimenting with a stand mixer, it's what I've been using and trying to perfect the technique but I'll need to measure the temp and % of BF from now on after binge watching your vids. I put all the ingredients together and mix it with the dough attachment, let it sit for an hour and continue to mix to develop the gluten structure for another 20-30 minutes, having a few breaks in between. After that I would SF twice and let it BF. After BF I shape it and put it into the proofing basket and into the fridge for 12-24 hrs. I just score and bake after it's out of the fridge the next day. Do you think the method that I've been doing will work to give a good rise given that the BF time/temp is perfected?
I have made a few loaves using this method and I think it might be my new protocol. I like things that simplify the sourdough process and this method seems to do that. I started using a stand mixer a year and a half ago and it immediately became a part of my process because it cuts down on hands-on time and ensures good gluten development. Interestingly enough, I always assumed that ten minutes of aggressive machine kneading would heat the dough up, but my dough dropped two degrees during the kneading process, and then I had trouble getting the dough up to its target temperature. The second time I started with 31 degree C water and that did the trick. After kneading, I ended up with 27 degree dough. I bought a 5 litre IVYX Scientific proofing chamber (following your recommendation), and after 3 1/2 warm proofing hours, I drop it to 4 degrees C for 24 hours(ish). Then when I am ready to shape, I set the temp at 32 degrees C to bring the dough up to room temp. I make a 66% whole grain loaf and I got some of my best oven spring using this method. The loaf came out of the oven with a massive ear, and my actual time spent on the loaf was a fraction compared to some of my earliest loaves where I hand-kneaded and counter proofed the dough. One of the things I love about this method is that it takes the guesswork out of proofing. Instead of you waiting for the dough to proof, the dough ends up waiting for you. This way you can go about your life and move to the next stage (shaping) when it fits into your schedule. I think I might be a believer! 😁 If I could make one suggestion it would be that you consider making a second (instructional) video that is much shorter, that simply focuses on one basic method. If people want to look at a much more involved video that compares multiple processes, they can view this video. I think you would get a large number of views if you kept the video time down to the 20 minute mark maximum. While I watch many of your videos, as a rule, a RU-vid video has to be exceptional for me to last 20 minutes. This method is groundbreaking, and I think if a video was shorter and was marketed well that you could get a massive number of views. Cheers!!
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I plan to make a shorter video with just the timing and highlights. I like to record these “experiment” videos for posterity because it is hard to remember what I did 3 years ago, for example. But once I’ve proven the method, I agree a much shorter video will work now.
@@thesourdoughjourney and even though I cringe at the click baity titles people use on RU-vid, they do seem to work if you want a lot of clicks. It think this method is truly revolutionary and needs to be spread far and wide.
So, I wanted to do a little update after using this method for over a month. First loaves were pretty good, but then I started overfermenting several loaves. I realized my kitchen was too hot, even if fermenting for 2'5h only at room temperature. So I started bringing my dough with me in a room with the AC on, 26-27ºC is a pretty comfortable temperature anyway, and I've been having consistent loaves ever since. Just in case I can help fellow hot weather bakers.
I am sorry if I am repeating something already said but I use little trick if I want my dough to stay warm during proofing . I warm the bowl (with warm/hot water) that I’m covering the dough same as You warn the bowl You are mixing dough in. Maybe it will help retain temp while dough is on the counter 😉
Thank you! I love your website and channel ❤ and, i love all your charts. They're so very helpful! Thanks for the info about that incubator! I am definitely getting that genius device! Happy baking! 🥖🍞🤗 P.s.. if you dont have a proofer. What do you suggest to warm dough to room temp after bulk fermenting in fridge? Thanks :)
Another home run Tom. How about putting the flour and starter into the proofer to bring it to to mixing temp first, then adjust the temp of the water to provide required final temp?
The main reason of sourdough bread is of healtier product, easy to digest. And preserve these properties - let's say for 4 days - without having to freeze the bread. Many times my 6-7 hours bread taste better day after day up to a moment where it became hard like rock but without mold. So, I wonder if using water at 27C will have a negative impact on this property of self-preservation. Thank Tom for theses long and detailled videos.
Thank you. The warmer water has no impact on the preservation properties. The long, cool fermentation helps break down more of the gluten, so these types of loaves are better for people with gluten intolerances.
Fantasttic video! Personally, I think I prefer method #1 since I can do that without any additional equipment. I 've been using an old seed mat heater and a styrofoam box and can easily get a 12 L Cambro inside and keep it at 82F for bulk, then into the fridge. I've been at this since 2010 and it is a great hobby. I get pretty uniform results 80+% of the time. Your video has made me realize that I need to go back to DDT, every time I make bread. I appreciate your hard work and sharing the results in this very detailed video made at the World Headquarters for the Advancement of Sourdough Science,. BTW: Try making Trevor Wilson's Holiday Sourdough Cranberry Bread. It's fantastic and my 2 yr old Grandson and family love it.
Thank you as always for the great videos, they are extremely helpful to a new baker who is trying to take up this hobby. How much rise should you be seeing in during the warm bulk ferment. Everything I've made lately is an underproofed, gummy pancake. I've been working on strengthening my starter and hopefully this will lead to some improvements. With last night's first attempt, I definitely had some bubbles forming during the 2.5 hour window and the dough seemed more airy during the folds, but there was not a noticeable rise.
Thanks for your replies. The thermometers I was wondering about were the gray ones that tracked the dough cooling curves. I have the Thermopen & the standalone Govee thermometers but love the ability to track temps of dough as it heats or cools. Dough looked good going into shaping. It was challenging managing temperature but I think that will improve with time.
It does not have to be expensive if you will make it yourself. I bought foldable foam picnic basket for 19 USD (38cm x 38cm x 22cm), 14W terrarium heat mat for 9 USD and a digital temp controller for 2 USD. It is not perfect but it works. Gives me more variable temp setting for such a low temperatures compare to oven, it is foldable and I can keep it where I want. But as Tom mentioned, oven works as well.
Incredible video, Tom. Thank you for all your detail. Random question: how do you calculate the combined protein percentage of the 2 different amounts of 2 different flours.
I so appreciate your dedication with time and attention to detail that it took, to make this video. Thanks for your willingness to share, and tie up a weekend, I'd think. So 8mo later, would this incubator still be the one that you'd recommend, for small quantity home baking? I have it in my amazon cart on hold. TY
Thanks. I still love that one for single loaf batches, but I also like this one. a.co/d/1464BtZ It is larger but fits on the countertop, is a little more powerful and slightly quieter, and comes in different colors, but it’s large and takes up some space in the kitchen.
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks. My kitchen is typically about 64 degrees at night and 66 deg during the day, and I'm using a sm space heater to warm up a corner of the kitchen when I start baking, but that obviously isn't very precise, and I can't leave it on overnight, unattended. I do think one of these units would be pretty handy!
This is awesome. I tried this process (loaf #1) last night. My bread is currently in the fridge for its final 24 hr proof. Do you think this same process could be used for sourdough sandwich bread recipes as well?
Last minute fail? Used the Tartine + Wilson. Beautiful dough. Passed all bulk-o-matic tests. Reshaped & shaped dough had good structure sat up tall in basket & loaf pan. At 9AM dough had risen a bit. Did a poke test sprang back immediately. Figured it would be good to go @ 3PM. Transferring dough from basket the dough spread more than I expected. When I scored the loaf, it completed collapsed. Hard to move to the Dutch Oven even using sling. Took longer to bake. Baked bread exhibits classic signs of significantly over proofed. What I think happened. Had a grocery delivery @noon which probably raised the refrigerator temp high enough & long enough to get the dough moving. Or am I missing something? The loaf baked in a pan is salvageable. Good thing flour is cheap.
Send me a photo at thesourdoughjourney@yahoo.com. Sounds like it overproofed. Easy to fix. Less time in bulk fermentation. Or shorter fridge time (or cooler spot in fridge). It take a few times to dial it in, but once you get it, it’s highly repeatable.
My experience is with yeasted dough but im going to get a starter going and try this method. Thought id share my method for measuring the water in case its helpful. I put a container on a scale and add the water. I add ice or boiling water to get to the desired water temp and then remove the excess water. This way the bowl does not change the water temp.
Thanks to about six hours of video I've gone from being bread-curious and mixing my first starter since I was a kid to being excited by the thought of controlling timing, acidity, and more with temperature. My head's still wrapping 'round it, but good stuff.
I've tried this now several times and this is now my go-to method. It's easy to fit into my schedule and the flexibility of the cold retard is key for when there is a "change in plans" for when I bake the loaf. Thanks again!@@thesourdoughjourney
Great video as usual. What's the best way to bring dough up to room temperature after bulk fermentation in the fridge? proofer, counter, what degree, how long?
I was comparing your loaves with my loaves. Mine has more height. I've come to the conclusion that it is the scoring. I score mine angled away from the center of the dough and about 2 inches from the end of the dough. I normally get a large ear.
Thank you for another great video. This method worked! I made two loaves and both tasted great with a beautiful crumb. What I noticed different was in the oven spring. It did not rise as high as my loaves usually do and the ear was charred on both of them. Do you have any idea why that may be? I baked them as I normally do: 450 degrees, 30 minutes lid on, 15 minutes lid off. The ear was already charred when I took the lid off, which was unusual. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. Thank you!
Thanks for all you do, Tom! There was a question in the comments about 8 months ago that I can't seem to locate but she was wondering if a conclusion could be made here that regardless of method, if we can keep the temp somewhere between 78-82 during 2-3 hours of strengthening (via stretch and fold or De-gas and fold), the dough can go into the fridge for no less than 12 hours and up to 36 hrs for bulk fermentation? Meaning Tartine + Wilson does not have to be a shorter bulk time (12 hrs) in the same way Kalanty-Fridge does not have to go in for a full 24hrs? Can there be some mix and match here on method AS LONG AS the initial mixing and strengthening phase is held steady at that 78-82 mark and just prior to entering the fridge?
Greetings from Boston. I tried to direct message you on Instagram but I believe that was a fail... Sort of like my loaves of bread as I learn sourdough baking through your wonderful website. I see that you are answering some comments on RU-vid so I thought I'd give it a try... I loved your video on two-stage bulk fermentation. I ordered the book on Amazon... "How to Bake More Bread." I read that book and watched your video. I've taken copious notes on the book. I do not see anywhere in the book where you do a second stage of refrigerated proofing. Am I missing something? The book seems to go from the initial 24-hour refrigeration to shaping and proofing on the counter and then baking. The book is also a little frustrating for me because all of the baking instruction seem to need a steam oven. I'm using your Dutch oven technique that you discuss in earlier videos. I've been at this for about 3 months and i feel like I haven't gotten the "perfect" loaf yet. Some are real bombs despite how careful I try. Ugh. Any chance you could direct me to the part in the book that discusses the second 24-hour proofing stage. Your videos are amazing and I have eliminated all the other noise on the internet and I'm just focusing on your techniques. I appreciate all the work you do. Hoping to one day be able to make sourdough for my family on a consistent basis. Thanks in advance.
Thank you very much for this video, so much work into doing this. May i know how much will the dough increase in volume after stage 1 of bulk ie after 3 hrs. And how much will it increase after 12 hrs of 2nd stage fermentation and lastly, after 24 hrs of cold retart ?
My dough rises about 30% in the first 3 hours, but the percentage rise is not as important as getting the dough temperature consistently at 78-80F doe the full 3 hours. In the refrigerator, as I say in the video, the percentage rise is not consistent. Sometimes it rises 50%, sometimes 100%, sometimes less. After shaping, the dough generally does not show much of a rise in the cold retard. Occasionally the dough will puff up in the banneton, but it is not essential. Unlike all other methods where you need to “read the dough” and ignore the clock, I find this method to be completely different. If you get the times and temperatures correct, it works. And watching the percentage rise is much, much less important with this method.
Tom, thank you very much for continuing to investigate the multitude of ways to make good sourdough bread. For me, that is the most obvious lesson: there are many ways to get to the same result which one can adjust to their preferences and requirements. As such, I have a couple of questions. First, do you have a preference for any of these 3 techniques, or would you just choose depending on how much time you wanted to invest? Second, do you think there would be any difference if the mixing and kneading techniques were combined? For example, could one combine all ingredients at the outset with no fermentolyse like Kalanty, then do stretch and folds like Robertson? (I am also very interested to find out your results combining the 2-step method with the slap and fold mixing/kneading). Third, what do you think about a shorter cold retard of 12 - 14 hr versus 24 hr?
I believe all of those combinations work. I just need to test them all! They key to the 2-stage method is the initial dough temp. I believe any mixing and handling methods would work with it. I don’t believe there is a huge difference between 12 hours and 24 hours in the fridge. All the action happens in the first 12 hours. The second 12 hours is the equivalent of about 2.5 hrs of bulk fermentation at the warm temp. So 2.5 hours of warm BF probably pairs better with 24hrs in the fridge. And 3 hrs of warm BF pairs well with 12 hours in the fridge. If I’m going for a prize winning loaf, I like do the stretch and folds and/or coil folds. If I want a daily loaf for sandwiches or toast, I just is everything at once. The differences are becoming less and less with more of these long fermentation methods.
Awesome video!! I'm not sure about the steps regarding Loaf nb 3: After mixing, you mention a 30mn rest in proofer, followed by what ???.is it followed by another hour in the proofing box before the first degas and fold? Or is it 30 mn in proofer followed by another 30 mn to hit the 1 hour mark, then do the first degas and fold??? In such a case, why not say directly 1 hour in the proofing box...I'm a bit confused!!! thanks in advance for any light you can shed on that part of the process!
30 min in proofer after initial mixing. Them first degas and fold. Then 60 min rest before second degas and fold. Then 60 min before fridge. 2.5 hours total.
58:18. You showed temperature curves for the dough cooling and it looks like a temperature sensor was on dough container. Grey sensor with what looks like probe attached. Btw. Bread just came out of oven and looks great. Now I want to try minimal handling you discussed on Facebook with 2 stage fermenting. Trying to find simple method for beginner ladies in Hawaii.
Oh yes, that thermometer came with something else I purchased (a wamring mat). Let me see if I can find similar. Here it is. You can find similar ones on Amazon for 4 for $12, with a better display. www.amazon.com/dp/B01N1QQ4EH?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_6Z6CRMBBE9XN01NXA0HX www.amazon.com/dp/B08R8JS8QN?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_F48MKXEJW9D1XC7R1HWP
I sometimes use a tin for baking, so after Bulk Fermentation, the shaped dough is in the baking vessel already when doing the cold ferment. With the two stage bulk ferment, if you are using a tin, what if you shaped the dough and placed in the tin in the first part of the Bulk Ferment, and remove the need to pull the dough out, bring it to room temp, shape it and back into the fridge? i.e is there something wrong about just letting the BF bleed into the final proof? I'm not sure whats different about these stages, other than the dough is shaped for the latter. Thanks so much!
another great video, Ive been following you for some years now. With this method, can I refrigerate for 24 hours using the Tartine method?? and afterwards, can I put the loafs into my proofing oven at 85 degrees to get it to room temperater soonera?
Yes exactly. Follow Tartine for about 3 hours then put it in the fridge for 24 hour. Bring it up to temp for shaping. Then do a countertop final proof or back in the fridge for cold retard.
Looking for the probe thermometers you are using for measuring dough temps. Are they Govee? Can’t find on your product page. Thanks for all the great info. Trying it today. Day 1
Holy Cow I am reminded of the early Bat Man movie where Jack Nicholson who plays the Joker makes the comment "where does he get all those toys"! You are the gadget man. I think I have hit my limit as to how much more I can spend on bread making. I will have wing it with the oven lite, I do have a proof feature on my oven I will have to see at what temp that gets to. To that end I don't think I will ever bake the perfect loaf. But like everything else practice makes perfect.
If you're going to do the weeknight schedule you suggest for your brother - Wednesday to Friday / Michael Kalanty - how do you slot in making the leaven? Do you mix the leaven Wednesday morning before work so it's ready when you get home? Is 8 hours enough? The guideline is about 12, right? And, when you mix your leaven, does it matter if the starter is coming out of an overnight cycle, or do you want to try to catch it at peak? That would add about about 4 more hours, right?
There are so many ways to do it. I’ve done them all. The easiest is to use a small carryover amount in the morning and mix a high feeding ratio (1:10:10) so it will be ready late in the day. You can also make the leaven in advance and refrigerate it at peak. It will keep for 12-24 hours.
@rdoughjourney thanks! Couple more questions... 1. after first time in fridge, is there a way to judge if it's on track and has fermented correctly. Maybe after final shaping? And leave on counter longer if it hasn't fermented enough? 2. any thought on how to use autolyse stage? Could I then warm it up in proofer?
Loaf #3 came out of the oven a couple hours ago and I just cut into it. I used 350g King Arthur White Whole Wheat (protein 12.2%) and 150g Safeway Unbleached Bread Flour (protein unknown). While it turned out wonderfully delicious, with two big crunchy ears, the crumb is tight. Wondering if I somehow underproofed? I couldn't get super-exact with the temperatures but going in the fridge the dough was 77°F; when I took it out for the final shaping it was 36°F. Forgot to check temp right before the bake. Was it too cold for too long? Should I have let it sit out at room temp. at any point in the timeline besides final shaping? Or was my recipe off (500g flour, 375g water, 100g starter, 10g salt)? First time using this whole wheat flour.
@@thesourdoughjourney OK, so in addition to using different flour in an attempt to develop a more open crumb, I've decided to try a slight alteration on the two-stage method after watching "The Impact of Bulk Fermentation on Open Crumb - Part 4: Findings" video (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Yd5f4doRNfw.htmlsi=81K580ubZrq3cRw6). First the flour change: 450g Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour, 50g KA White Whole Wheat. Second, three stretch and folds, then two coil folds within the first 90 minutes of bulk fermentation. Windowpane test looked very good, whereupon I let the dough continue its bulk fermentation in a too warm oven until the 2.5 hour mark before putting it in the fridge. The dough was 83°F; I decided to pull it after 22 hours since it went in "hot." The dough was at 36°F coming out of the fridge and is now warming for an hour before preshaping, a 30 minute rest, then final shaping. I will then assess how much preshaping and final shaping needs to be done before the second cold proof as per the aforementioned video. Overall, I believe my major problem has been overworking and degassing my sourdoughs. This time might be the charm!
Hey Tom. Works well for 1 loaf. If you were doing say 10 loaves in a larger bulking container would you out it in the fridge a little earlier? Just curious on your thoughts. Also, to bring a single loaf of 900g up to room temp from fridge it takes me about 2 hrs with ambient temp of 77
Good question. Yes, a larger mass of dough would cool down more slowly in the fridge. I’m guessing, rather than 3 hours in stage 1, I go for 2 hours. And see how that works. When the dough comes out of the fridge, I don’t feel it needs to fully come back up to temp. I just don’t want shape it “cold.” But it’s all part of the proofing equation. Find an overall process that gets close and then tweak it on the edges and it will be highly repeatable once you dial it in.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks Tom, the one change I’ll have to make is taking a larger mass out of the fridge. I’ll try 2 methods. 1 large mass to room temp then divide shape and fridge. 2. Divide cold, beach rest, shape fridge. I’m curious to see how this can be used in more of a production setting.
Thank you for your quick response on my last comment. I'm going to be trying this and I'm just wondering if the cold proof in the banneton could be pushed from 24 to 30-36 hrs. Without any negative effects on the rise or crumb. My instincts tell me it should be fine, what do you think?
Some extra folds in the container (say 20mins apart) when taking the dough in and out of the proofer may have helped with the temperature. I normally do this when using a recipe involving cold bulk fermentation to equalise the temperature - guessing this would also work with trying to warm dough up???
@@thesourdoughjourney sorry, I meant during the first 2hrs when there's not a lot out rise happening. I use this when I make cold fermented focaccia - the first hour it's in the fridge I perform 3 folds to get the whole of the mass colder faster and it still comes out very airy crumb at the end 😊
So I have a question. Wouldn’t the amount of dough affect this method? If I’m making a small loaf (I like to experiment with 250g. loafs) won’t it get to fridge temperature faster, which would cause it to reach the “barely fermenting” phase faster?
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for the quick response! This technique might be life-saving for me since I don’t spend much time at home, and I don’t like being forced to babysit my dough, let’s see how it goes!
