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English means to put a spin on a ball. If the word on its own merit is sound then we can put a spin on a baal. It's a hell of language that brings many revelations.
"Vanity" is actually the exactly correct interpretation of Solomon's intent. It intentionally implies the cause of these ambitions as being from the ego.
when i was atheist i evetually find solution for question of life meaning by just recirculating this question. why we asking meaning of life, when life is the answer for meaning. whats meaning of everithing? life. and thats give sense of purpose and understanding thats we dont need to suicide, cause life is the answer. with all that mysteries that come with this. you just dont want to be anything, you need something. and you need something interesting with drama and all, that give us interest.
Hey Alex, i have a question, does the sport of football have any real meaning & purpose to it? 22 grown men kicking a sheep's bladder about a ploughed field...where's the rationality in that? They want to grow up these peepil, nuffin but a bunch of deluded idiotic morons the lot of 'em, and anyway, Rugby's better, cos it's obviously way more credible, at least to the mature intellectuals amongst us, AHEM!! "William Webb Ellis was a great genius!" - Me ( just there the now!)
@@teemumiettinen7250 yea but yet new musicians are discouraged to pursue their path because its "not a real job" because they arent making much money from it at frist .,.shit when people say "i want to be a rapper " alot of people think they are not going to do well in life. Because they see art as a hobby not a job ..
I couldn't help but notice that too, he clearly loves the subject. It's my first time coming across him I will certainly be checking out his stuff in the future, especially with regards to historical philosophical content which tracks through individual philosophers I've had little interest in up until they're brought up in conversation and debate.
@all-caps3927 On his channel, he looks at books in the lens of features of rationality and human cognition, which points you in the direction of existential investigation. Enthralling
This is not only two philosophers having a great discussion,, This is also two philosophy geeks geeking out about philosophy I’m so happy to see Alex displaying His youthful spirit here. Something that, given the weight of His contents, rarely shown
He tends to use a lot of filler words (umms, yeahs, etc.) in this conversation, which makes him come across as confusing and talking a bit too fast, which I see as the only downside to listening to him talk in this conversation. That said, his scripted content is paced a lot better, and he will no doubt become better in impromptu speaking as time goes on.
Nietzche is the prime example of intellectual honestly. He's sometimes seen as nihilist because he explores nihilism extensively in both directions. However, anyone who's made a reasonable attempt to understand his works would know that he doesn't have a positive view of nihilism but rather sees it as humanities challenge to overcome.
Just FYI, I think the translation of hebel to "absurd" is overkill and implies some type of unexpected or puzzling quality. But the Hebrew "hebel" means: breath, emptiness, transitory, unsatisfactory, futile. It is the same word as Abel, son of Adam and Eve, whose life was as short as a breath or vapor. Also, the KJV "vanity" used to mean "in vain" as opposed to self centered/looks obsessed. The NASB Bible translation uses "futility." I think this is a good choice for modern English. Although the Hebrew word has a more multifaceted meaning.
Forrest Valkai declares himself as Nihilist - the most positive, life-affirming person I can imagine. What he means with that is that there is no outer, prescribed meaning of life. And that allows you to be free to choose your own, personal meaning for your life. One that YOU consider worthwile, that you like to pursue, where you can set yourself REACHABLE milestones so that you have a feeling of success. That idea I find magnificent. It would help so many people when they learn how much the small things of life can give you, and not despair at the "great" questions. Is it not already good when you are making a remark towards a random person you are walking by on the road and make him/her smile? In principle demonstrate to people that life is NOT this senseless, eternally repeating existence, but each event is/can be different. Just learn to see.
I'm not a philosophy buff but your statement nihilism allows you to choose your own meaning... Isn't that just existentialism? Arent they different things or is existentialism a subset of nihilism?
@@laze4534 Well till the time we are not able to find out a perfect epistemological methodology, I think these are the closest answers which are inherently more logical than other alternatives like religion or objective truth .
@@TheThinker-jv3me My point is, you only consider them logical because arbitrarily your biology results in you having similar desires to those who authored the ideas. That is not logical, it's a coincidence of having similar biological biases. Like you said, until there is a valid epistemology these are the closest answers, or as I said mere coping mechanisms. Though of course there will never be a valid epistemology methodology as all things outside of mathematics are not objective.
Is it a philosophical perspective or is an outcome of personal growth...not allowing people or events to define your subjective outlook on yourself and your world? It's not a challenge. I'm just curious.
This has been the most intimate interview that I've ever watched on Alex's channel really. Can literally see from the way they talk with each other they fit each other well, possibly because age diff is minute
I’ve never quite understood why nihilism is depressing for some people. I find it quite liberating. I suppose it’s a measure of how dependent someone is on their sources of meaning when they encounter the idea.
@chemquests I agree. Nihilism is a beautiful idea because it means we are fundamentally _free._ We're not obligated to live in any particular way dictated by a supreme authority. Some ways of living can still be better than others from a naturalistic perspective, but there can be a multitude of ways to live well as long as you're living in harmony with your fellow creatures.
This is really cool too watch as they're almost getting giddy about the topic which doesn't happen when there's an older person involved! They're getting as excited as I do so it's just nice to watch!
If I remember properly from my studies, “Hevel”, the Hebrew word in Ecclesiastes, connotatively amounts to Vanity or Meaningless, yes. However, I learned at the same time that it is literally translated as a word for dust or smoke. Something that can be seen, but not grasped. Felt, but not held. 14:42
I am baffled by the positive comments on this video. Did people listen to this while doing chores, as if it were background music? Yes, the topic is philosophy, and yes, the topic is nihilism. But it seems like a long exposition of textbook examples of nihilist philosophers without giving it a relatable context. The conversation goes like, "Philosopher X has said this and that... ah, Philosopher Y also thinks like that... wow." The speed at which they jump from one philosopher to another, then to the Bible, makes it very distracting and hard to follow their point. This can be seen as good geeky philosophers having a good discussion in a coffee house, but it is not something for an audience to listen to.
We identify individual aspects to everything. So a table and a chair as two separate things in relation to everything. But when we are not doing that, there is already everything. Free from the need for individual aspects to be identified. The identification of individual aspects is knowing, we are searching to know everything. Everything is already free from the need to be known. There is just absolute freedom, covered over by that search for knowing.
Its funny that alex seems to be this calm, peacefull figure and joe looks like hes about to have a heart attack because of how enthusiastic he is. They re opposite personalities but it works well
I don't believe there is inherent meaning behind anything. We're all forced to live in the society in which we reside so our actions reflect that. I get out of bed in the morning because what's the alternative? There may be no point in living but the alternative is inevitable, so there's no reason to rush it.
We all assume life is finite, but what if humanity lives on forever? It will mean that everything you do has meaning and lives on infinitely in an ever diminishing return, yet never fully ceases to exist or have an impact, even well beyond when you die. The butterfly effect forever. If the universe is infinite and ever expanding, then there is a pathway to this as truth. We don't know where it ends, or if it will; we only have mathematical guesses and assumptions that breed bad philosophy. If we stop being nihilistic, we may even make it happen.
@@Laking86er and what if I have magical leprechauns living in my nose? These kinds of thoughts allow you to disassociate from the harsh reality that you will die. Your time experiencing reality has an expiration date. Whether or not the universe is infinite plays no role in our existence. We are talking apes. When we die we will become rotting ape meat. There is no evidence of anything supernatural.
Because as a nihilist, you have to constantly remind yourself that nothing matters. Doesn't matter how much happiness or joy you feel in the moment, you must remind yourself that it's worthless. Birth of your child? It doesn't matter. Getting a raise at work? It doesn't matter. Achieving fitness goals? It doesn't matter. People are not meant to operate in this way so that's why nihilism is an awful mindset to have.
@@zahubshahid7944 you just did what i said people were doing. no you dont, you dont have to do any of that you can have subjective meaning under nihilism all it is is the denial of objective or categorical meaning, am a nihilist and i dont have to remind my self of anything, am perfectly happy and fulfilled in my life
@@zahubshahid7944 I completely agree with you on this one. In a way, it can be refreshing to put into perspective certain 'failures' (if you are not able to get kids, you can always say it doesn't matter anyway) but it also takes away a lot of joy when certain 'goals' are achieved. I suffered from this perspective a lot the last couple of years when certain goals were achieved. How do you personally deal with this?
Interesting talk, I struggle to watch when the guest is making grunting noises when Alex is talking. I get he is trying to show he is pasionate and engaged in the conversation but man, when people do that to me it makes it extremely difficult to talk, and when I'm listening to a conversation when it's happening its like passing kidney stones trying to not get distracted.
I am an older viewer (55). When I first started hopping onto RU-vid to watch philosophy videos and, as a result of the road traveled, debunking videos, I hiccupped my way to accepting that the younger generation has interesting and valuable things to share. Seeing you, Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, and now Joe, I am feeling more and more confident that there _is_ a generation to keep things rolling. [ *Reference:* I am dealing with the nonsense that is Trump and his cult here in the US and I have been losing my hope for the future of our country, at least.]
There is non-sense about Trump as well as good things. There is non-sense about Biden and the Left, including their enabling of Woke extremism that someone like Trump opposes. One of the very good things he has done. Not all bad / not all good. If you are the likes of referring to anyone who will vote for Trump as "cult", then you're frankly a part of the non-sense and being duped by the Establishment Left. If you are against actual cults, anywhere they are found, from the Left to the Right, most recently the Far Left, then we are aligned in that. I've been around the block plenty, from the Right to the Left, and your comment at the end isn't persuasive with me. It would've been many years ago.
1:15:10 Gotta love when 2 philosophy oriented minds come across a new and succint idea/conclusion that neither of them have though about before but makes so much sense and start gushing about it with each other 😂 Looking foward to that paper, fellas Loved this episode so much! My two fav philosophy channels on an uninterrupted and enthusiastic back and forth about my favorite topic in philosophy (Camus was right with his opening line wasn't he), it seems like an early Christmas, really!
As always I enjoy the podcasts, even the ones I don't agree with. Small point on Ecclesiastes, instead of meaningless it's better translated as evanescent, ephemeral it has this quality of vapor which is fleeting and ungraspable. Such it is with this life, it may be valuable and even beautiful, but the pleasures of this life cannot be grasped and used as a foundation to live. That is the thing that is the main message I think, as Augustine might have said, the transient cannot take the place of the eternal. Once the eternal is there then true joy is complete. (Don't go for the dopamine hits basically)
Life is merely a sentence we all serve individually together, in an environment we didn't choose, if we are lucky we get to alter the decor, content and dimensions of our cell whilst exerting influence over the the term.
As someone who absolutely can’t stand Bernardo coupled with the deep personal satisfaction I receive every time I get to watch Alex poke holes in the ideas and beliefs of the loudest most convicted… sign me up too! Yes please! Although I feel it would be a little bit of punching down (not that it would necessarily be adversarial) for Alex, I would definitely enjoy and appreciate. Having said that, I’ll like and comment on every post you make in solidarity and agreement!
@@uninspired3583 I just laughed out loud in a super quiet space hahah. I was honestly expecting someone to be attacking my comment not agreeing 😂🙌 I even went as far as watching two “debates” of his since posting that comment in case maybe I was being to harsh or misremembering but nope, I stand by what I said and i appreciate what you said hahah
@user-wn1kq8jx5q the wierd thing to me is that he uses all the same concievability arguments to tear down materialism, but his own theory has all the same emergence problems materialism has plus some new problems in showing how dissociation works. It seems to me like it's just materialism with extra steps. I'll give him credit here though his fan boys are enthusiastic.
I'm not sure the existence of God would solve anything. God would still be a brute fact without reason, morality and meaning would be subjective, freewill probably still wouldn't exist (unless we have open theism). Not much is solved by adding God, tbh.
40:56 my brother in Christ… no. If you asked random Americans raised in the educational system of the US, to name a famous nihilist. They would stare at you and say they have no clue. Unless the are a philosophy buff. Majority of adults from the America would look at you like your speaking mandarin Sir.
Alex. One of my goals in life is to be on your podcast. I'll work hard and make content and one day when the time is right, I be talking face to face with you. Absoutley LOVE your content! Keep up the great work!
As someone who has spend lots of time with this topic, I can tell you the following: there is no evidence for nihilism to be a rational view of existence or for it to be true; nihilism cannot be falsified; nihilism is a subjective choice of believe; moral realism is true, moral truths and moral facts exist; rationality can't explain intrinsic factors of the human condition, emotions can‘t be objectified; scientific method demands being humble and open minded, nihilism is therefore not possible because it deals in absolutes; free will is true, compatibilism is the main position in the scientific conmunity. BUT: this conversation was in general really good, I think Alex' guest is very interesting to listen to and he makes good points. And I love that you guys talked about good old Dostoevsky
"One of the greatest dangers in the spiritual life is to fall into the trap of auto-salvation, the conviction that one can save oneself through heroic moral effort. The principal problem with such a strategy is that it results in the strengthening of the very egotism that one hopes to overcome. What Jesus so vehemently critiqued in the Pharisees was just this kind of egotism: “You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones.” Sin is not a weakness that we can overcome but a condition from which we have to be saved. " Bishop Robert Barron "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/28/24)"
Stirner certenly fits the bill the most, as his book opens with 'all things are nothing to me'. What makes it difficult is that stirner puts value onto subjective meaning, and dismisses "objective" meaning, begging the question if a nihilistic statement about things having no meaning is refering to objective or subjective meaning. If its subjective, then we might as well call Camus an nihilist in the same vein. If its about objective meaning, then Stirner would dismiss that notion outright. Or atleast in so far as conventional philosophy would characterize it. "this is objectivly good because i like it" would be a classic Stirneresque joke, and the same could apply to nihilism, in the sense that his subjective nihilism, could be conceptualized as an 'objective' nihilism , if only as a joke.
Nihilism is not a response, but a truth proposition. It either *is* or *is not* . It cannot be good or bad, or right or wrong... it cannot be anything outside of its definition in its truest sense. If it is the case that nihilism is true, meaning that no meaning exists in the universe, then we can focus on how that makes us feel. If nihilism is depressing or liberating, it does not make the truth any more wrong. If nihilism makes someone feel sad, that feeling does not mean nihilism is false. Our reactions can allow us to explore responses like existentialism and absurdism and all of the other philosophical "subsets" (as I like to refer to them as), but we need to clarify between the response, the emotion, and the definition. Now, I will admit that as a more postmodernist-leaning person (especially when it comes to epistemology), I will recognize that it may be difficult to define nihilism. For example, the meta-narrative I lean towards when I hear nihilism not only entails no objective meaning- but also no subjective meaning (as I postulate that if no meaning exists objectively than how can subjective meaning be constructed; how would that process be defined?). This makes me find many existentialists extremely self-deprecating and entirely ignorant. However, I can recognize that their meta-narratives regarding nihilism might be defined differently, so I still hold to recognition of such definitions even if I find them inherently absurd.
@Bluuuud Why would we care about what matters objectively, when what matters subjectively is more than enough? I'd say even the nature of 'mattering' is something that presumes subjectivity rather than objectivity. Sometimes the thinking on this gets muddled because subjectivity is objectively something that many people have in common, the bell curve of values and emotions and instincts make people converge on a common subjective morality. It's not random. But also not objective.
@Bluuuud I think my point was that the natural normal biological instincts DO NOT say "this is fine" unless you are at the edges of the bell curve, an abnormal human biologically speaking. Feeling empathy is the norm.
How can nothing matter when faced with these two and their off the charts charisma and deep takes? In some parallel universe, they're a tag team philosophy couple that takes the world by storm, including a series of philosophy-wrapped-in-a-sitcom movies.
Cool discussion and nice guy but Joe needs to chill out and be quiet when Alex is talking 😅 He comes across as too impatient and only wanting to talk himself. 😢
I know it may be depressing but I’d like to hear the discussion of whether or not it to take your own life taken more seriously or at least dive deeper into that question.
What’s there to consider? Well only the entirety of your current and potential future experiences and the weight of moral consensus and supposedly divine edict.
Joe, actually, I don’t think you guys are the atheist quasi materialist thinkers that Dostoyevsky feared. Those would be people like Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc. Ones that completely rejected anything that remotely Judeo Christian ethics or ethics that value individual rights
Diogenes didn't call himself a dog. It's what the general public called him. There's the story of him ranting at a group of people that they call him a dog, yet they circle and yell at him while he's eating.
