Several of you have noticed the intake rocker being off to the side. GOOD EYE!! That's one of my Dyno mule pieces were about to put in a Impala for someone and we still have to set all the pushrod guide plates. It won't leave like that LOL but congratulations on catching that. PLEASE SUBSCRIBE THANK YOU FOR WATCHING
@@johnnybrigham8754 oh man you can get those from the auto parts store like AutoZone or advance Auto or even eBay or Amazon Just Google Chevrolet distributor wrench tool
Kinda a personal beef I’ve had for decades, is people not verifying the 0 / TDC timing mark, against actual TDC, for accuracy. On initial assembly I include it as part of degreeing. Also, Id usually mark the damper hub to the inertia ring, as a tattletale, if the inertia ring had slipped.
Brian, for my bracket car I used a vacuum gauge for base timing then adj for total time curve. Sometimes the weather played a factor of a few degrees. Every try that method? I ran very consistent times.
Great Video !! May I offer another way to drop a distributor in with out pulling valve cover. Pull out #1 Plug - crank till you feel compression building - watch Balancer and rotate till timing marks show up and align with pointer. This method is tough on a hot engine. Using compression gauge screw in hose can help keeping skin on fingers. Another Important note you covered was how crucial it is to have all basic's set up before starting a fresh motor to break in cam. Rev's must be kept up to insure proper oil splash around cam to insure lifters seat to cam lobe. This is an offer missed important step. Keep up the great Video's.
thanks brian i had no idea how in depth you would go into this topic when i suggested you make a video on timing a sbc when you were in the beginning few videos on your channel. i am thankful to have found you and be one of your early subscribers. i think i was number 27 to sub to your channel. little did i know how much you would blow up and be able to add new insights and procedures to this genre of videos. you have gone far beyond my expectations and taught me so much more than the vast amount of videos on this topic. no other videos are needed you cover the topic better than anyone else and in a way easily understood by newbies or old dogs like me are shown new tricks. so thank you for going above and beyond for a simple subscriber .i can only imagine the level of dedication you give your paying customers but i guess thats why you are at the top of your industry and have the records to show your master tech level of skill building race winning engines thanks again for your time and showing a simple hot rod loving american ways to make more hp and how to make my good times last longer behind the wheel of my classic. GOD bless you and your family and i hope you keep showing us more of your knowledge because it is certainly appreciated
Two things I think you need to add (1) That the higher the octane the fuel is the slower the burn rate is. That is why you can add timing and/or run a higher compression ratio for more power. (2) The distributor isnt going to drop down where you want it until you rotate the oil pump slot to engage the distributor shaft. You can adjust the wires to compensate for the distributor position but I think the oil pump is going to frustrate some beginners. Hope this helps I like your channel
@tklykun9858 from what I've learned the burn rate isn't slower.. just quicker to ignite.. seems Chinese but you don't want it to ignite too soon. So really the theory your saying is its slower is and isn't true.. it's slower to ignite not slower to burn. Make sense?
Black powder vs common nowadays gun powder explains a lot yet.. prob doesnt.. I just see it as is takes three sparks vs 1 to ignite with hotter fuel.. or more octane.. However your mind fits to see it. Alcohol meth diff. Crack I'm not sure. Lol
@@gpt5002 you are correct sir the old myth is that high octane fuel Burns slower than low octane fuel but the actual truth is high octane fuel is less prone to self ignite due to heat and pressure whereas low octane fuel will self-ignite when cylinder temperatures get too high Of course in the video I wasn't talking about high octane or low octane I was simply making a statement that fuel Burns at the same rate no matter how many RPMs you're turning which is why you have to advance the timing from base timing to full advance.
@@gpt5002 Well kinda sorta I guess we could compromise and use flash point.. 87 octane is more volatile and will flash before say 110. I stand corrected Volatility is determined by its vaporizing ability usually determined by its boiling point water boils at 212 F and gasoline used for motor fuel can range from 100 degrees F to 400 F depending how its mixed with hydrocarbon compounds. Octane rating is its ability to resist detonation.
Yes, sir that is some good information. I've always set the distributor to where it is to fire and them bump the engine around until the oil pump drive shaft aligns with the distributor (it will drop right into place) I then bump the engine around to set the distributor where to fire. first time I assembled one of those SBC I aligned the timing marks on the cam and the crankshaft gears with the dots together (this is actually number six to fire). Well, I could not get the engine to start. My dad was watching me and he said, "let's get it on number one and check the distributor". Sure, enough it was 180 degrees out. Well, that was a lesson learned.
I had 2 expensive high performance engines destroyed by detonation less than 4K miles each with conventional timing/tuning, admittedly ragged edge of power for the type pistons. Been running identical replacements like rented mules for many years due to chassis dyno tuning which is the only tuning I trust now, even my cruiser engines gain some on the dyno. Non pumped is at 6 initial and super charged engine is at 4, no vac advance on either of them and plug wires totally isolated cause even MSD wires can arc at high load with 6AL spark. Can't hear detonation at 5500.
Would you be willing to do a video on measuring running compression with a comp tester and discussing different running compressions and what it means for volumetric efficiency? Please.
Very good info sir! My old timing light doesn't have the tach or the adjustment. But then every vehicle I've owned for the last 20 years, has been computer controlled. I will definitely need to upgrade for my upcoming project! Awesome channel! Thanks for sharing!
As a amateur home shop engine builder these videos are invaluable to me in learning how the internal * confusion " engine works . Practical exclamations on what we trying to achieve, some times I watch the videos twice to make sure I have understood all the main points ! Kit from down under
man that was more helpful than you know. ive always wondered how to install a distributor properly. you just made it childs play for me lol. thanks for teaching me the trick. i always say theres a trick for everything. you just have to learn the trick. great informative vid
I immediately a o4 thing system Friday to set my distributor, marked #1 turned it over and was dead on my mark on on tbi you disconnect the connector under the dash and set timing at zero stop engine and tighten distributor restart and recheck to zero worked like a dream, starts great 👍 your information is spot on Thank you Sir! Smiles 😃 😊
Yes sir! Love your information I've been building engines a long time your never to old to learn something new,still working everyday at 71 I'm retired buti like to work and love money 💰
You literally just told me what I asked in your last video... granted I was reverse than what u said but yeah man. Thank you! Dude I'm a poor fella but my daddy could make a stock engine run like a real dawg.. lifetime subscriber here
What is your opinion about sbc initial timing being 35deg duration 240 and 300 and total around 46. I hear that big cam in small displacement needs much higher timing. 🤔 mine sounds okay but don't seem strong for a fresh build.
@@SalterRacingEnginesmorning, id like your opinion on big cam high duration in sbc. My cam is the lunati bracket master2 510lift,240/duration @50 and dont idle well with anything under 30deg ,heads are BP hp8103s,flattop 4val piston, 650cfm. Im leary about getting higher in timing but the motor hasn't the guts it should. 🤔
@@STEELCITYCAPRICE hey if you're running a cast iron head you should never have more than 40 degrees of total timing at 3000 RPMs and higher. I would have my base timing around 25 to 28 degrees at idle and by 3,000 RPMs it should stop advancing at 38- 40° total and leave it there don't go any higher than that. If you're running a vortec style cylinder head you need to stop at 35° total. So keep your base timing around 25 to 28 degrees and do not exceed 40° with the older style cast iron head and do not exceed 35 or 36 degrees with the vortec style head.
@@SalterRacingEngines Thank you!! I appreciate the response. I'm going to take that advice and put it work. Once again great channel 🏁🏁🏁also I'm running the Blue print hp8103 aluminum heads
Thanks got making this great video. I’d like to add something which is if your running a very mild to fairly hot street setup (which is what was overlooked here that the avg guy could benefit from on the street) on an old school sbc or is it’s good to run a vac advance setup/limited to give an additional 10-12 deg max timing to go along with the 36-38?deg total timing you already have setup. The additional timing from the vac adv increases mpg,makes the motor run cooler & give cruisper throttle response esp in lower rpm before mech adv is fully in which for max street perf is 2,500-2,600 rpm with proper octane to avoid detonation. The additional /limited 10-12 timing from the vac adv is obtained by installing a crane vac adv limiter plate or installing /tack braze a piece of metal onto vac adv to limit its travel/adv, But be careful of detonation & if heard either get some real lead booster from Wild bills corvettes online to inc the octane or retardant timing enough to stop the detonation reducing power,making throttle response doggy ,motor runs hotter with reduced mpg too. The addition timing from the vac adv gos away at close to & at wot when the intake is lowest and only returns when the throttle goes back to a low load lower rpm cruise situation. Must ensure vac rating on the vac adv is such that it deactivates at what the motors intake vac level is when close to or at wot. Happy motoring.
One more note.Ignition timing and advance curves was figured out in the 50s and 60s. The book "How to Hot Rod Small Block Chevys" by Bill Fisher copyright 1972 has everything you need to know. The only thing that's changed is how the spark is produced. The actual timing and advance curves are the same.
Timing is everything. My FE loves 17 initial and 20 centrifugal with no vacuum advance. I have the light combination of springs. It is at 37 degrees by 2800rpms with a 3000 rpm converter. The response is ( was) amazing. The trans is programmed so that with 4.33s the tires chirped on every shift.
Love your videos I would love to see one on building a 406 short block with 11 to 1 compression and what parts are used and how far down in the hole is the piston with a 64cc combustion chamber
A long time ago I tried timing 383 Mopar with snap on timing light. Car equipped with MSD (6 I think) Timing light so erratic it was useless. Used $25 wal mart timing light; not erratic at all. Snap on light was used several times a week and only messes up on this car. Was I doing something wrong?
If was a digital snap-on light with a tach, I have one I bought about 40 years ago and it won't work with a msd under about 3k rpm. It's trying to read rpm and the multiple spark at low rpm the msd produces is confusing the hell out of it!
I had an engine once that I couldn't get the timing to set. It would jump around 4-5 degrees. It ended up being that the rotor plate inside the distributor had come loose from the shaft. I welded it back and that fixed it. Still runs today. Just something to keep in ya back pocket for the future.
Thanks for the info i use a old distributor cap with the top cut out to see the rotor relation to the #1 spark plug wire when my balancer and indicator or a top dead center then when I have everything zeroed out I'll turn the engine to whatever my desired initial timing is on the tape then I will turn the distributor to match the rotor it's usually pretty close and good enough to get it to start right away , by the way your #1 intake rocker isn't centered on the valve tip very well
Yeah I saw that lol The valves are sloppy loose we have a lot of finishing up to do on that thing. It's one of my shop test mules but I think it may wind up going in a 68 Impala but thanks for the heads up I did see it.
The first time i had to install a distributor, and set timing. Was when i was 16, in the Walmart parking lot!😮 I had to change the distributor. Luckily i paid attention to my dad when he had installed distributors. I worked on cars all my life. Built my first chevy 350 when i was 13. And built many more since. (And no it wasn't the same engine!) The last was a 11:1 385 with 210cc heads and all the goodies!
They often fall off but Brian's method of using a heavy clear tape over them may cure that problem. I've used the tapes for many years just to measure where to put marks on the balancer where I want but it would be nice to have the full range marked with a tape that will stay on.
You should use an oscilloscope to capture the correct intake and exhaust timing waveforms, and check for possible mechanical problems, otherwise you chase your tail, and you can do that with a mercury HG transducer for intake pulses, a 300 psi transducer for Cylinder pulses, and a H20 transducer for exhaust pulses, and a 5 gas analyzer to monitor the burning process
Just wondering if there is a formula to get your timing close since not everybody has a Dino it seems like most engines quit making power at 36°love your videos big thanks for sharing your knowledge if you've got a set of those NASCAR heads for a windsor I would love to see them in a video
Fun fact. At 3000 rpm the piston travels from TDC to BDC in 10 milliseconds. At 6000 rpm it does it in 5 milliseconds and all four strokes are done in 20 milliseconds. Our poor old flame front sure needs that head start.
My 38 two cylinder John Deere likes low octane fuel. We live at 3400 ft it has 5.1 compression ratio it starts easier with the low octane fuel. This two cylinder starts with the flywheel it has compression release valves on both cylinders.
Some good info there Brian,,cheers.I run my dizzy at around 22 initial and 32 all in @ 3000,and not using vacuum,,and runs well,,Ive thought about trying vac advance with manifold vac,due to the slow burn rate at idle and low load conditions,as I've seen some guys suggest that even up to 50deg BTDC at idle/low load is ok,but I'm stuck between the guys that say it's possible to pull enough vac at WOT to advance the dizzy,then others say it won't happen.I still wonder lol
You only need about 10 degrees of movement so fix your distributor where the rotational speed will advance it rather than vacuum advance. Anyway that's just something to try
does the shot rod engine need a little more advance because the maximum pressure of the burn needs to be reached sooner because the piston leaves tdc quicker than the longer rod engine?
brian I have new set of promaxx 200 on a 327ci 4 of the rockers well not align properly the push rod well rub the intake port what is the fix thanks?if any
Salter on my 383 aluminum heads build are 1.60 or 1.65 going to help my performance hydraulic roller of course i had to use middle of the road cam there are 3 for 4wd descriptions!!
The only thing I have to say is!!! People are telling me I have to have a vacuum advance on my motor . I have a msd pro on it. Running great! It’s a street pickup 360 mopar. Goes down the road 3000 great! In town run good. With the cam I have in I think it fine. So why do I need the vacuum advance ? Just trying to figure out a way to get them off my ass or if I am wrong at least I have a professional to tell me why. Maybe I should tell you something about the motor would help.30 over 360 roller cam,roller rocker, thumper cam,gear drive timing, single plain manifold, elderbrock heads. So what will I gain by using a vacuum advanced distributor?Thank you for any advice on this. I think it fine! The only thing is maybe a 750 carb cause I just run a 650 but seems to work fine and I don’t run 6000 most of the time. Just a fun pickup to go eat out or get some parts.
I never use a vacuum advance I always get rid of it so if it runs good and your timing is stable and you got no pre ignition or detonation just ignore it
I don't use vacuum advance either. And I usually lock out the timing on my hotrod or race type engines. My daily driver is locked out at 34 degrees. Runs like a race car. No adverse affect at all. Starts right up too no problem.
My 5,0 mustang balancer has come apart and started spinning the outer ring. You talk about chasing your tail! Had a ton of timing in it and was thinking it only had like 25 lock out and was still hard to start and just running like crap. Put a new on it and buddy did it wake up lol.
@@mickangio16 or just breaker bar on the snout, but yea - I usually give the rotor a wiggle when it's in there to make sure it's all the way in and seated tight.
How do you check timing before 3k on an MSD? Mine is all over the place not holding steady until I get around 3k then it gets rock steady. Makes it very difficult for me to set my base timing. I’m just guessing and setting my total advance
Why do some timing lights say they won`t work on MSD stuff, is it the muti-spark of an MSD? or something else. I haven`t been able to see a differance between my ancient light and my new ones. I like indexing my timing marks by the lift of my intake lifter at 36 and 0.
There is no point in searching for the “ideal “ initial timing. Basically you want enough for the engine to run the best possible at idle but while avoiding too much that will cause kickback when starting. 15 to 20 degrees will usually work out fine. If running vac advance set the distributor up so that you have 10* initial with another 10* vacuum ( direct manifold vacuum) for 20* total at idle. So if you want 34 total advance with the vacuum line plugged you would subtract 10 from 34 = 24 divided by 2 = 12* distributor advance. Then at cruise you would have 34 plus the 10 vacuum = 44. You want a vacuum can that doesn’t start moving until about 8” of vacuum. Typically you need to make a limiter tab to reduce the travel of the vacuum can.
I have above a above average Craftsman timing light it wouldn't work correctly on a MSD distributor. My neighbor had a elcheapo timing light it worked. Of course that's with pointer set with dial indicator at TDC.Set your timing watch your tack to see when timing is all in.
@@johnjenson5738 there's lots of occasions where you need to dial the timing back but what are you referring to. Are you referring to like boost or nitrous
@@johnjenson5738 are you referring to a timing light by chance. If you are I had several timing lights with a dial on them they were great I'm just not sure which particular time you're talking about
It was in the 1980s or early '90s when I was in the garage with a couple friends that were more into actual race cars than I was, but I worked on more street cars and hotrods. My one friend was having a bit of trouble with is big block Nova. It was MSD equipped and he was using a dial back timing light. I had discovered that my Snap-On dial back light didn't work correctly with the MSD and told them so. They didn't believe me and told me I was full of pooh. About six months later one of those friends brought up that dial back lights didn't work with MSDs- as if I never told him that in the first place! I don't know if things have changed or not.
Can you do something about ignition curves?? MSD has interchangeable springs that can be easily changed. So how do we know which springs are really correct for the application?? Ive dynoed 4 times and the heavy springs stayed in the MSD. Then others will say not to use those garage door springs(too stiff) and go the lighter springs. Timing coming on too slow is bad and coming in two quick is also bad?? Or do we just use whatever spring it takes to get timing all in at say 3k?? Love to get your take on this. Im 22 base 36 all in at 3500 with heavy springs.
You want the centrifugal advance to begin about 200 rpm or so above idle. If the centrifugal advance is moving at idle speed you timing will be erratic and it will be hard to have a steady idle rpm. All in timing is determined by usage. Street is totally different from racing. Racing is typically all in by 2500. Street requires taking into account all the variables. Car weight, rear gear, compression ratio, cam specs, intake and carb and gasoline octane. Also whether you plan on long highway drives where vac adv would be beneficial. Also nowadays whether you have an OD transmission must be taken into account. With OD I really recommend a computer controlled advance curve.
@@kurtschlagheck3711 yes you should be able to use any timing light that has an inductive pickup. I haven't seen a timing light that won't work with MSD
I just bought a distributor suppose to be good to over 9,000 rpm and 65k spark. $54.00 Brevx ? melonized?gear new. Is 65k spark good enough for 10.5 to 1 pistons? And can I run 65k bluestreak coil for v8 on my v6?
Buy a long one piece distributor wrench with a built in handle. This way you don’t have to fumble around reversing the ratchet lever or having the extension fall off.
Timing goes across life lol. On an engine, timing is key to a great engine. In life, timing makes for great outcomes. Life is made by timing. If the timing is off, life is missed.
That first video is a little scary isn't it? After that it's gets exciting and you want to make them. I started making engine videos for my grandkids trying to get them into cars and hotrods. It's working. Even my grand daughter watches them and she wants to learn as well as my grandsons. (Proud grandpa here lol). They are the next in line to keep motorsports alive. If we don't show them the way as this new generation just don't care, motorsports will die with us. I don't want that to happen.
I make videos for my daughter that was taken from me in a divorce. Her mom made her hate me. I figure after I'm dead and she's grown, she might one day wonder what her pops was like.
@thereluctantgearhead4544 Dam, I'm sorry brother. That's is a good thing your doing tho. Those videos will always be around even when we're not. One day she will mature in her mind and grow a s person and start thinking for herself instead of thinking like her mother. She may surprise you before then. Hold on to that hope.
Nice explanation. I like to tell them to make sure that both the intake and exhaust valves are not moving. This has bitten me before because the travel in the Hydralic lifter was nulling out vale movement at overlap.
Your 383 is set at 36 ' total???? I'm use too always setting it atdc put rotor at #1 always start first time and runs great and then set total with gun never did it your way?
I shouldn't ask yet but that intake valve.. well rocker seems a little out... u changed the angle of the valve guide? Didn't appear to be canted.. I'm gonna have to keep watching your messing with my head 😂😂
Lol yeah the rockers are super loose that's one of my test engines for the shop that we're about to put into an Impala for a guy but I noticed it too. Lol yeah it's not going to stay like that we're going to have to adjust the push rod guide plate
Advancing ignition time (BTDC) helps you achive maximum cylinder pressure on the compression stroke, ideally for most common gasoline v8's, maximum cylinder pressure occurs between 9 & 11 degrees ATDC (piston on the way down of the power stroke). Resulting on more torque and essentially more hp. Per cylinder.
It would be interesting to measure how much the piston has actually moved down the bore at 11* ATDC. Probably just a few thousands of an inch. Be easy to do.
@@truthboomertruthbomber5125 correct, i agree, and lets remember by that time the Combustion chamber, piston valve reliefs, and gasket thickness clearence all that space has been pressurized to their maximum while the piston was deweling at TDC (because spark was introduced around 34° BTDC)and now that it starting it's decent down the controlled burn has nowhere to go except to push the piston down with great force. (Around 9° to 11°)
Thanks for stating that the rotor has to line up with the #1 WIRE on the cap. I was beginning to doubt my own sanity. I've watched about every TV show on engine tuning and building ever made. Everybody (Roadkill, Enginemasters, Cleetus crew, everybody) starts by setting the dist with the rotor pointing to #1 CYLINDER. Why? It doesn't matter, just clock the wires accordingly. #1 terminal on my engine is clocked at #4 cyl, about where yours is. What am I missing?
