No Wrist Speed? No Problem: Secrets Of Reverse Dart Thrower Picking Motion 

Put up some clips, we love seeing results!

@@troygrady just uploaded a video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--5t-zr2eeVo.html. The upstrokes are crazy already!

Awesome!! Edit: For reasons I can't figure out your link is not displaying here, but it probably will if I post it as the channel owner ( ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--5t-zr2eeVo.html ). For those who are interested, click on over for some amazing 260 bpm upstroke riffing!

@@troygrady omg. I'm honored. Feel free to share and cut ❤

@@troygrady New video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6P08NXPR7Ug.html definitely got faster on the higher strings, but i don't know if i am doing it right.

Nice! That's a skill set I'd like to have. What do you work on?

prob just 🧢ing lmao

@@helio1055 hey, first job was a design consultant to the construction industry, mechanical and electrical department, Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems for buildings. I didn't really enjoy that too much. Then I transferred to a Diesel engine test facility. R&D for the fuel injection systems for truck and tractor engines. I dunno what capping is, I'm probably too old.

Same!

Me too! Better late than never I guess.

I'm unemployable in the accounting department with my current skill set so you're in luck!

The Primer explains all of this in even simpler fashion. The quickest reference we have is this lesson here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-mechanics/chapter-1-identifying-wrist-motion/

Cool!

Awkward passion for the win!

I'm going right back to your Symbolic Solos video after I get this technique down.

Awesome!! Man you played on a true classic. Chuck is a pioneer. I actually had to do a little digging to make sure I got the pronunciation right. I discovered that not knowing how to pronounce "Schuldiner" is pretty common.

Oh my god it's the Bobby Koelble! I loved your solos on symbolic :)

Are you sure you're not already doing it? Andy Wood, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Andy James, and many more or all reverse dart players. They're not using "tall mouse" form but there's plenty of footage of McLaughlin blazing at 220bpm+. So "small mouse" is still a very capable motion.

Evidence-based investigation is what we do!

@@troygrady It's a waste of time with respect to playing music. Firstly it's a tautology, since none of the mugs singing your praises can play darts telling them it's a dart playing motion is as pointless as telling aspiring dart players to move like they're picking a guitar. Secondly none of them do anything else they do by fretting about which anatomically named parts of their body move or don't move - if that was required then 1 year olds wouldn't be learning how to walk we'd have to wait until they were older. Thirdly if all the people singing your praises could actually play the guitar to a high technical standard then there's bazillions of incredible virtuoso musicians by now and yet there aren't any. Odd. Lastly, and the biggest clue this is a waste of time : the only interesting guitar players to come out in the past decade that are playing music can't even use a pick. Lastly, if you look at other musical instruments, e.g the piano, you can find the same situation : a plethora of highly skilled virtuoso pianists and a circle jerk of people bleating on in pseudo-scientific terms about parts of their body who can't play particularly well fixating on technique in the flawed belief this will provide the "secret" to playing. It doesn't. But I guess the key part of making money from this is ignoring that evidence.

Sounds plausible! You are correct that the key is the wrist motion, and the arm position and grip simply enable that.

Thanks for watching!

@@troygrady I've been following your work for quite a while and your finding and explanations are incredibly relevant and usefull. I've been practicing the advice you shared and it made realized something I've been suspecting for while. Whereas the extend to which the forearm is rotated is important, it appeared to me that the amount of flexion/extension of wrist is also important. While they are seen as progress, I wonder if tommy cut and the forearm contour pioneered on the stratocaster, are actually a desirable feature. Especially for the less gifted among us, a flat body implies that the player has a pretty control and perception of the plane of the string and it promotes a position in which the elbow is a tad further away from the body and there is less wrist flexion. The effect varies depending on whereas the player is sitting or standing, how he positions the guitar. etc it is nonetheless a factor. I just received a Les Paul copy and whereas I like the flat back, but I noticed that the carved top and the significant angle between the neck and the body messes with my picking. I guess one can adapt but I wonder if the flat simple bodies (with a neck aligned with the body) are actually more ergonomic when picking mechanic is considered and not confort. I could also explain why there is no request in the tele community for the strat «ergonomic» cut. Anyway, have a good week-end.

If you're intuitive enough to somehow know that these form adjustments work, then you are among the few, the proud. I was never that smart back in the day. I had to "figure out" all these things!

Awesome, thank you!

Awesome! Let's see some clips! We're always learning from the way other people are learning.

I'm not sure there's a way to think about parts of a pickstroke! I say this only because I don't want to mislead you with all technical bedazzlement in these lessons if it's not actually going to produce results for you. With this technique, the simplest test is if you can do a rapid, easy-feeling "tapping" motion in the air. You can also do it by tapping on the guitar body. If you do it with a metrnome and you can go way faster than your usual picking motion, then that's a good sign that you're doing it. If the speed comes up more or less the same as what you normally do, then you might not be getting the benefit. Thankfully, this is one of those things where it's relatively easy to tell if it's working.

Trust me. I’m good at overthinking things.

cry me a river

What we noticed originally was the concept of escape motion, where some players make the pick appear it is going up in the air. But we actually didn't know much about all the different ways the motions are accomplished, i.e. which joints and arm positions and pick grips and so on. That was a very complicated puzzle to piece out but we have much, much more knowledge of that know. And also how to teach things, which is the important part for most of us who just want to make music.

@@troygrady well I think you do a great justice to the many nuances involved, and your resources are ones for the guitar history books! PSP and CtC really opened my eyes to technique and position, and this video did it again by literally inverting how I perceived which muscles are working on the desired motion

Thanks for watching!

Not familiar with Inferi, will check them out. I've looked at John only a little, but from what I recall he looks like a "small mouse" + forearm player, similar to what I'm doing here ( instagram.com/p/B9AQ849n8VK/ ). Also a cool technique but I can't do this one as fast as the "tall mouse" motion.

Right on!

Excellent, that's what we're shooting for.

It's super cool - sounds like a helicop[ter. And kind of surprising when you get it working.

We drew on a number of research papers for this. What is interesting is that the performance question (i.e. speed and endurance) hasn't really been investigated by science yet. These motions are mainly studied for their role in rehabilitation of joint injuries, where doctors are looking for motions which are very common because they can be used in many everyday activities like pouring, tapping, etc. They are less concerned with breaking speed records, even though the speed aspect can be a clue to how the joint motions work and why they evolved - and those questions *would* probably be of interest to researchers.

@@troygrady I mean this is a great topic for phd research in Berkeley university. This is the whole new level of playing, ur pickslanting videos for example completely changed the way I play. And it’s really more than just - practice 24/7 and u will become a great player

We've looked at bass picking (i.e. flat picking) techniques - they're the same as the motions on guitar so there's no need to modify them. However fingerstyle stuff, no. But there are tons of seemingly great bass channels, I assume other people are looking at these things.

Yes! When you learn to view wrist joint motion relative to the arm it becomes clearer which motion Al Di is actually making. Live footage helps of course. From static photos in books back in the day, forget it - I had no chance. There were still people who learned these techniques at fifteen or whatever, with no teaching. They were just fewer in number because succeeding required particularly great athletic intuition, luck, or both.

Hope you get your parole.

@@claymor8241 It's worse than that. I'm self-building an extension for my house.... my one year build is already over a year overdue! All looked so easy on RU-vid.

That's the key! If you can get it sometimes and not others, that's the sig that you're onto something. I think of it like doing a skateboard trick.

@@troygrady Nice analogy! Certain skateboarding tricks are not going to work unless you setup your feet properly and generally someone has to show you that part... thanks again for lending your knowledge man!

...Thursdays this fall, only on NBC!

Thanks for watching!

@@troygradythis looks like upward pick slanting. Can we use this with downward pick slanting? I’m using the Yngwie’s picking motion, learned using your course. Thank you 🙏🏻

Thank you!

Roy was amazing!

That's it! Great summary. The other hint is that to do it on a guitar, you don't want to come straight down and "knock" on the strings. You want to come at it a little from the side, so you may have to rotate your arm position a little like you do when using an ergonomic mouse. And this may require using a different pick grip to achieve that arm position while still being able to reach the strings comfortably with the right attack.

You never know, maybe we'll see more upstrokes! I find it pretty easy to do, or at least, easier to figure out.

Yes for sure. The Andy Wood "small mouse" reverse dart technique can split the difference a little for hybrid. It's not as fast as "tall mouse" form. But with Andy's arm position, which is much flatter, you can still make a diagonal motion that goes pretty fast. It just won't feel as super duper easy.

@@troygrady makes sense, I'll give it a go

So many breakthroughs start as accidents or misperceptions. Embrace the chaos!

This single escape stuff is a great skill and doing it at the nether reaches of speed (1) is fun, (2) makes 200 bpm feel like walking backwards so improves all your other playing, and (3) leads to all kinds of cool idea generation. Like turning all your diatonic scales into 1234 / 4321 fingerings by adding an extra note.

Lots of parallels with drumming in terms of the complexity of the motions. None of the motions in this lesson are forearm rotation, they're all wrist joint motion. But we were just talking about Buddy Rich's joint motions on the forum the other day. His right hand was wrist, his left hand was forearm: ( forum.troygrady.com/t/buddy-rich-joint-motions/71087 )

Right on! What are you working on and what kind of results are you getting?

Forearm motions can be fast, for sure! EVH's tremolo technique is a great example of that. But this technique here does not have a forearm rotational component. You can see this in the closeup shots - the pick is not rotating. This technique is more similar to what very fast wrist players do, like Shawn Lane and John McLaughlin.

@@troygrady Indeed. The big takeaway for me is the reminder that you don't have to use the same technique for everything. You can have a whole bag of different tools and use as needed. I think a lot of us get hung up on the idea of there being a singular 'right' way. You're doing a lot to get people to branch out and accept variety.

That's true, and Ed is a good example of a multi-technique player who used different motions for different phrases.

@@troygrady I think about Tim Henson in that context of using a huge variety of techniques. Like some of the newer Metallica stuff. It sounds very simple and easy to play, until you try, and then discover it's challenging in new ways, be it timing, or some other way you have to stretch.

Right and with both pick grips. I’m so lost on this subject after watching it like 5 times I still don’t get it

Definitely, I am so lost lmao

You can use both / all. Just more tools for the toolbox!

@@troygrady Yes for sure, thanks Troy!

Necessity is the mother of invention! Metal and punk players know what's up when it comes to fast motion.

The conversation with Brendon has a lot of great discussion of different rhythm techniques, and you can watch most of it right here on the channel. Great guy, and great player!

That is a fantastic observation! It's not really that the motions are fast - it's that they're fast *because* they're efficient and easy. Everything below those speeds just gets even easier.

James is a picking pioneer!

@@troygrady I'm printing this conversation to show to my friends.

Yeah it's a very interesting question. It's mainly just that there is one direction of the wrist that is the fastest. However the escape you get is somewhat secondary - it's determined by the overall arm position and form. It's possible that you could use the "fast" direction of wrist motion, but cause it to be USX by using the right form. Notice that many death metal players use a highly "flexed" wrist, like you're cradling a baby. I think this is why they do that. With a straighter wrist, that same motion might produce DSX. So some experimentation is necessary.

​@@troygrady Thanks for responding Troy. Having worked with it for about 6 months I find I like a more heavilyflexed wrist when on the high E (USX). If I am moving across the strings I flatten out somewhat.

Very common story! Technique is complicated and not at all obvious.

Thank you!