Confirmed with 2 people now… formlabs wont let you use the $1000 credit on the refurb only new machines, even though they never started that with the offer 🤦♂️
Yeah super frustrating, I am very familiar with formlabs they will find out later they made a mistake with this move. They truly had the chance to change the industry, yes it would have been painful but worth it in the end
So, I didn't know about this, but there's this project, SLS4ALL, that has been working on an open source SLS printer for a few years. The inventor of that design plans to sell kits for his printer soon under the brand Inova, and release his CAD files, software and PCB designs around the same time he's taking preorders. His kit will be quite a bit more expensive than the Micronics though ($6000 to $7000 I believe), which isn't too surprising, as he's using massive CNC machined parts and the thing seems a bit overengineered for home gamers, but the idea seems to be that the community can come up with cheaper, simpler implementations based on his designs once it's all released. So maybe the affordable desktop SLS printer dream isn't quite dead yet.
Yeah, I saw this the other day and am totally taking the diy approach. These guys are lame. They claim they want to make something cheap and available to nor.al consumers and then turn around and sell out to a company just so they can stay a monopoly on the consumer product. Formlabs. only about profit. Everything they sell is outstandingly marked up, and of course, they take the apple approach and ensure that you have to buy formlabs only resins, plastics, etc. Honestly, if this was a company, it would have been blocked by the government . Formlabs is abusing , this space by poaching competition before it grows strong enough to become a real company.
Actually it is already available for purchase. So are the STEP files. This project originally made me build a printnc. Now that it is finished, I am not yet quite sure if I will build an Inova, but I'm definetly considering it. I think machining everyting yourself will bring the cost to the Micronics range or below (this doesn't mean the kit is overpriced, machining is expensive if you have to charge for it). The main thing which is holding me back still a bit is that not only the printer but also printing is quite expensive unless you really fill the chamber. One print job will cost you 20$ at the absolute minimum, a full chamber will be at around 120$. You need to ensure you are able to pack it to around the density where the sweet spot is (amount of fresh powder=amount of sintered powder). So one "huge" part printed on this machine will cost you 100$ or more if printed alone. This is because you should always mix 30% of fresh powder into the reused one. So the sweet spot is where you have to add this amount anyway because it is "lost" in the parts. Of course you can roam around this sweet spot. Being below will accumulate your refurbished powder, being above will enable you to reuse it.
Ye, but you still wouldn't want a "desktop sls printer" unless you have an actual workshop for it and are willing to keep up with all the ppe and post processing needed to actually run the machine It's really something that only a businesses would actually look into getting, and most of them would just look into larger machines to begin with because of the better customer services they provide
Formlabs killing the competition. This was a promising project and the big dogs killed it. Formlabs have become the same as when 3d Systems tried to kill Formlabs before the Form 1 was brought out.
And who says the whole thing would have worked. I have a Fuse 1+ (before that a Fuse 1). The quality of the prints is completely different. And as he said in the video, SLS printing is more for business. And then you need quality. This means that a few enthusiasts would certainly have bought the Micronics at the beginning. But whether the big money was then made with it, as it is aimed at the business market, is another question. So they did very well and certainly got a nice chunk of money.
I went and googled around after seeing this Kickstarter early on. To see what people that work with the machines had to say. The big take aways I got were. Print in a dedicated space, not the back of your workshop. A room just for the SLS. Get changed into new clothes when leaving the room. Depending on the powder you need serious masks or just basic ones. Some powders are super toxic, others not so much. My bottom line was, I'd love to try it but the cost of the printer is just the start. You'll be spending on air filtration and air compressor setup. Out of my league.
@@ClayMann You need "serious" masks for working with ANY powder fine enough to be used in an SLS printer. Literally any powdered substance this fine is an _enormous_ health risk, regardless of the basic toxicity of the substance itself. Human lungs weren't designed to cope with breathing in these extremely fine powders, and they are a huge cancer risk simply because of that.
This is actually one of the reason why they are so big. They need a room only for the printer... why not just use all the space avaliable (being reasonable) if you already doing a full room for it.
Yeah the fact they sent a KN95 to reviewers is scary in their safety perspective. Pretty sure formlabs would have loved to just ship the kickstarter but one brief safety analysis probably spooked the lawyers enough to kill it before anyone else would get lung cancer. The powder isn't like uncured resin that would eventually cure with enough light exposure the tiny microplastic dust could presist long term or worse slowly spread around a users house after a couple acciental spills.
@@ClayMannit’s not only the toxicity that you need to worry about. Once the particles are in your lungs, they are there forever, which will eventually lead to mesothelioma over time just like asbestos. The vaporized particles are toxic, no mater what material you are using. You are not allowed to release them into the environment per EPA and OSHA regulations. Micronics was silencing everyone who talked about this in their comments.
I would put good money on that's exactly what they did. In its current state I'm sure it was no threat. But the very fact they were bringing SLS down an order of magnitude in price from the competition in their very first machine. If they ever made it to V2,
Formlabs is a hyper locked in system. While they started off like Micronics. They bought them to shelf them. Maybe the slicer is of some interest.... but then Formlabs has the muscle to just replicate that if they chose to.
I believe FormLabs did it to simply hire these two guys. Formlabs can EASILY put out a better machine for equal or lesser value, but that doesn't fit their ethos. That simply is not in their brand. So, in effect, it was to shelve it, but mostly to free them up and put them to work. It's obvious the Formlabs recognizes they've been missing a trick or two for years (now finally embracing MSLA resin printing), so hiring these guys is likely another shot in the arm to stimulate more innovation.
I was one of those T-shirt backers. I love the idea, and this would be great for a more technical hobbiest, rocketry or rc hobby, or something more mechanical and material focused. But I was very skeptical about this machine, and to me, it just didn’t look like it was ready for production. It was, in my opinion, a late Alpha stage, maybe early Beta stage. This was not ready for a kickstarter, but I understand why they launched it, and why they took the deal. I hope to see this again in a more matured state.
It's so awesome seeing our model in your video as what can be achieved with resin :) You were right! Our red resin DOES show up awesome on camera Thanks so much for showing them and the on screen shoutout
@@UncleJessy Oh yeah! Wait until you do your testing with it. Quick 5 minute cure is all it needs and it keeps a lot of the flexibility while retaining crisp details. I'm stoked, can't wait to hear your thoughts.
Can only imagine how many countless nights they've sunk into this. Sad to see it end like this but really excited for them and hopefully helps kickstart a more affordable SLS options at Formlabs
They made a BOATLOAD of money from the buyout. Formlabs will turn this into a budget version of their current line, and it'll be 10x the cost Micronics was gonna offer it for.
Pretty sure they realized their project was a non-starter they even said they were running out of money before the kickstarter it was probably more of an advertisement to formlabs to juice up their terms.
@@riakatamaybe. I’m guessing they’ve been telling themselves for a long time that this was all going to work out while getting closer and closer to running out of funding. 1.3 mil isn’t actually that much money for something like this. They were facing a tough road ahead which maybe had some chance of success but I can understand if someone suddenly said how about we disappear your money problems with maybe some limited promises for what they might work on next, it’s tough to say no. Now Form Labs just got some ways to potentially make printers cheaper without necessarily lowering cost much and disappeared a competitor for cheap. Hard to say what the real chance of failure was but maybe they were just done with this kind of seat of the pants business. Sucks though i wouldn’t have bought one at the price they were offering anyway.
The reality is that even if they could get this working, cost would still be prohibitive and they might have realized the potential liability in selling a toxic dust system to consumers. SLS printer costs start at the printer, you need an entire dedicated lab and advanced HVAC system with HEPA. Any particulates will cause chronic inflammation if inhaled and lead to lung diseases. Dumb idea and they smartly bailed.
My concern about SLS for consumers, is where do you get the powder? Will you have to go directly to Micronics, or now Formlabs? With filament or resin I can easily buy online or even drive to a store.
Hi Uncle Jessy - nice timing for your video. Man, the announcement is extremely sad for the dream of an accessible SLS - even more because, as you said, this was one of the rare Kickstarter campaigns that REALLY needed the money from backers to see the light of the day. I will be extremely surprised if Formlabs finish this product... I think they just removed competition. About the special deal: I wouldn't use it at all - everything ForbLabs is so expensive that in the long-run it is just a money trap. Their products seem to be very nice engineered but only companies can actually justify the costs. BUT, I agree with your concerns: would the trio actually pull off a final manufactured working product? It was a hard bet and the odds were strong... But I am very sentimental, I am a dreamer, and when a dream dies, I get very sad.
Sure this was going to cost $4k. The problem is that Form Labs' existing resin printers already cost more than this was going to, which makes it come off like quashing the competition. After all, if you're going to spend $4k on a printer, why would you pick resin over SLS?
So your internal and bed temperature were both too hot, that's why it came out as a brick. Try lowering the temp slightly. If you go too low, you may notice the edges curling. You can dial in temperature and laser power, speed, etc. with "temperature crosses". If your part is curling, your temp is too low. You want to get it hot enough so that your parts don't curl and the breakout is not a hard chunk of plastic. I've had a ton of experience with small and large scale SLS printers like the EOS printers, which is what the "airless basketball" was printed on, while working at a couple national labs. Feel free to reach out Jessy if you would like any tips on dialing your prints in, I would love to share.
The worst case scenario gonna be no production unit, they just bought " the patent " and that's it because formlabs is already make a sls printer. Fuck them !
I’m a mechanical engineer and I work with a form labs Fuse 1 printer everyday at my work, and I have to say…I have never had a company be so unhelpful when it comes to diagnosing problems, whether it be with the printer or the blast.
Micronics really had the opportunity to stick it to the man, but I think they were overwhelmed with technical issues and saw the deal as a way out. I'm sure they're relieved.
Resin is ironically safer because it is photocurable so over time ambient sunlight will make it all non-toxic while the mostly non-toxic powder that is just pure microplastics is physically bad for your lungs for much longer if you don't completely clean up after yourself always. Resins smell horrible to indicate their toxicity (smell threshold is a real thing) while you can probably breath in a lot of the nylon powder without tasting or smelling anything for far more than you should ever inhale ever.
As least I can say I'm glad for the inventors. They had an idea and they got to a point where they could sell it and hope to make it. Because lets face it, even with the kickstarter, there's the unknown of how much will it end up costing and will the money collected get them over that line so that they can deliver the printers to those who pledged the money at that price so that they don't lose more. I wouldn't want to have that stress over me. Especially if I was fresh-out-of-college young.
I saved up to buy this printer but after talking to lot of people I opted not to get it because I’d have to personallly imported the powder every time it runs out. Which I regret because I’ve been wanting to get an sls printer for a couple o years and date fact that I lost the opportunity to acquire the open source materials for formlabs :(
As one of the handful of backers, I personally am disappointed by the development. Talking with Formlabs, it seems that they have no interest in developing a printer in the $3-4k range. So basically it was just a catch and kill acquisition because FormLabs felt threatened by Micronics undercutting the Fuse 1.
Formlabs startup from 10 years ago is not the Formlabs of today. The third person on the Kickstarter... i think that's their professor of mechanical engineering.
Hi Clayton 👋🏼, I have a formlabs fuse 1+ , i was just wondering whats the refresh rate on the power? How much second hand power can you use for your next print from the last batch?
The simple answer its nothing. Formlabs going to continue selling expensive printers and Micronics going to spend the payment they receive in a new house and beers.
There’s a lot of hilarious angst in the comments here. I don’t have a dog in this race either way but… 1) The machine Uncle Jessy showed is not a shippable product as shown. Demonstrated by his near-inability to actually print stuff successfully with it. 2) They may or may not be planning to tune up this machine to make it into a product. For the sake of people wanting one, obviously I hope they do. But see #1. It might not be a viable product at this price point. 3) Remember that a lot of acquisitions like this are basically personnel acquisitions. It seems likely that the mother company recognized 3 people who are hot talent, and they snatched them up. They’re not snapping up these people to prevent them from ever making anything. These guys will be in the new company applying their talent somewhere. If this technology can successfully be sold at this price point in a form that doesn’t just make reviewers showcase all the stuff they couldn’t print (which is what’s here in this video), you’ll eventually see these machines. Either from these guys or someone else. But it doesn’t look like this was the machine anybody was hoping it was. Watching Uncle Jessy’s prints, I think this was going to be a failed kickstarter. They were going to burn through their cash, end up unable to ship, and then it would be another kind of acrimony.
I just dont think this kind of printing is ever going to be a "consumer friendly" kind of thing. The science of it is just not the type of thing the average person would daily use. Honestly its kind of scary. Imagine this thing running and a kid decides to open it? Woah!
While I am happy for the team at Micronics, I feel like Formlabs bought them to shelve their printer. They don't want competition, and I've found their closed nature to be much more like Stratasys. Closed and proprietary. Their resin printers offer nothing that I can't get on the market now for far cheaper.
it's a awesome proof of concept and i was wondering when/if we were gonan see you with a proto build of one.. for the idea of a desktop format it's awesome but the build of it clearly needs some more major refining. and this isn't for a beginner or just a hobbiest.. this is for someone that was serious into it knowing full what they are getting into.. for stronger parts and to build with zero support is a big selling point.. but with so many machanics having to get around... this is like the FDM following the SLA 3D printing space.. these things will get refined and shrink for more avalability for the public.. not now and not in say 5 years but somewere down the road.. i think this will be working
with that said.. i hope formlabs do well with them maybe they bought them to help knowing they won't be able to make it on there own and to join them to make better printers...... or they bought them in fear of what could be there comptition.. either way.. hope for the best for them and we will see what comes out of this
I would bet that the market for the machine was probably 1500 total. I do not think that they would have been able to build the machines. They were in over their heads and found that out way too late. Formlabs buying them and canceling the Kickstarter probably saved us all $3500. The $1000 credit from Formlabs was a joke. It was very poorly worded and did not include supplies, etc. It is only for new machines at full price.
This is a bummer, but that being said, the fuse 1 form labs SLS printer was the cheapest SLS printer on the market anyway, they are only 15k, hopefully they will work on getting that a little lower. Micronics was near enough 5k so the actual machine cost is likely similar, formlabs just have more overhead.
In the long run, I think being bought by formlabs is better for the creators. The amount of units they'd have to produce (with 3 people) means they'd have to hire someone else, as well as get new facilities - which would take a big chunk of the money. They have to produce the machines, ship them. Keep in mind that Kickstarter would be taking a big chunk of that money as well. As to the actual unit, it looked interesting, but it really felt that it was designed by engineers to be used by engineers. If you know any engineers, they think a bit differently than say, your average hobbyist. The machine did not look user friendly at all. Couple that with requiring the media blaster and a dedicated space to post processing, I think many would be unhappy with how this product turned out. It kickstarter would have been late (they're almost always late) money would be used up far quicker than they expected. For the 3 creating this, getting picked up by formlabs was the best course of option for them. The hope is formlabs can create, or more will create, a more affordable SLS printer, using the micron as a basework. There's a potential market for it. As it was though, I think the micron would not have been a success that many are imagining.
I would love one of these printers just even a smaller version like the Mars line just to be able to print something without supports if I need to but not spending thousands of dollars
The big question is, are there amy patentens in the take over that formlabs now own? If there is, then there is a pretty good chance they did this to kill competition. If there isn't, then there was no reason to do this unless formlabs wanted to go in to the low end marked.
This whole project felt like something was off, the moment they removed the pending 'buy it now' option that was to be pending release directly on their site, then it all got moved over to kickstarter(my issue with kickstarter is that, you are funding 'an idea' not actually guaranteed any product at all, as most have come to know) then they got bought out and simply canceled the entire kickstarter, so.. 🤷 They got their bag. Also any company with shareholders, is one I won't trust to further humanity, they vote to line their pockets, eat all competition.
Yeah, I'll deal with the need for supports (or designing around them) if it t mean avoiding SLS. Just does not seem like it is made for 'household' environments.
‘’The fuse one will be offered at $9,999.00 to any micron backer, and this $1000 discount may be applied to this purchase.’’ This is a joke and is the same price as the refurbished system. Is it really possible for a company with a product like there’s at that price point can really adopt and deliver the promises of a budget SLS system when they have so much investment to the opposite?
G'day uncle jessy..... I think as a business person its a win win situation, a bigger well established company picking them up and their invention. In the long run, a refined well funded and supported system will give the customer some piece of mind. Now as hobbyist/consumer regardless of backing this kickstarter or not this can hurt the web sites traffic and to weather i will go looking or even bother. The backers wanted something differant and so backed this, and Formlabs now has left a bad taste in their mouth..... Oh and heres a grand to spend on our store...to buy what?... Another resin printer?.....Well me, im poor, so none of this really affects me, but i can see and give my opinions from both sides. Cheers for the update on the SLS from A M8 Downunder🙃
Formlabs has no desire to continue the project. They already have to tech to do a desktop size SLS, they just haven't had any desire to bring it to the hobbyist level of budget. They can afford to buy out competition and then simply shelve the projects, as they have done in the past. They may have started on Kickstarter themselves, but they ARE a monolith in the SLS space.
Has anyone tried ultrasonic bath to clean SLS prints? It'll leave you with messy nylon water, but it's better than nothing, and powder can probably be sifted and dried out for reuse.
I definitely feel like this was the right move from a business perspective, for both businesses involved. From an engineering perspective, it would’ve been a cool story, but sadly having a cool engineering story doesn’t always pay the bills 🤷🏼♂️
I'm sure the micronics duo spent a ton to get this project going and happy to see them hopefully making out in the end on it. I'm also hoping this isnt the last we've seen of the Micron
They definitely got bought out to prevent competition but the silver lining is that FormLabs actually has decent safety documentation and culture so if they ever do make a budget one they won't ship reviewers kn95 masks which are insufficient for that kind of application. That printer would be dangerous in any home environment even a garage the powder will spread slowly if your not very careful. The powder jug is literally a bottle of microplastics sure nylon is "mostly inert" but in microplastic form mostly inert is actually far worse as your immune system can't digest the powder that gets stuck in your lungs. Mfg's love to say its non-toxic and there is no proof that it is bad for you currently but its a microplastic ultra fine dust and there is plenty of research into dust and inert dusts = lung cancer with enough exposure.
This doesn't seem like it would have a very good value to cost ratio. It seems like it's far more targeted to hobbyists. As for form labs printers, I don't really see the benefit of shelling out the money for one of them either. They don't appear to produce much better print quality than other resin printers on the market, they print far slower, and you are locked into buying their resin. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see the benefits of buying a form labs machine.
I for sure underestimated what all goes into printing with SLS. It's definitely a new workflow/learning process and reminds me of first working with a Resin Printer but man is it a lot more involved
So Formlabs backed up a truck of money to their house, said come work for us and we'll expect 50 hours a week until you quit from burnout like many engineers before.
This thing could've cost double the money and still be disruptive. They had formlabs shaking in their knees, period. The buyout offer must of set them for life.
@@fluxpistol3608 If you cannot understand their unkept promises and behaviour towards others in the past month, I don't think I can help you. And I don't have any more time to dedicate to this.
@@fluxpistol3608 If you cannot understand their unkept promises and behaviour towards others in the past month, I don't think I can help you. And I don't have any more time to dedicate to this.
Despite me not liking Formlabs. Many of the engineering resins - like Formlabs Though - beat the SLS Nylon by a mile.... without the long print times, without the mess. Yes there is supports required on SLA, but finishing those supports off is less hassle then finishing a SLS part.
@@UncleJessy Formlabs has the supports down to a science I have to say. They remove very easy with very limited blemishes, much more refined than all the open source slicer results.
@@UncleJessyyou're internal and bed temperature are too hot. You need to lower it slightly. Keep lowing it until it doesn't come out as a brick. But if you go too low, your parts will start to curl on the bed.
This kickstarter had zero shot of succeeding on its own. They clearly had no idea how to manufacture anything and the money raised is a fraction of what they would have needed. Formlabs acquiring them will just hide the guys in a lab, lockup their IP, and stop Chinese manufacturers that know how to make things from ACTUALLY disrupting the market. Small cost for Formlabs to continue business as usual.
Pretty sure the chinese manufacturers are pretty close they make tons of 2d laser systems that work pretty well and are dirt cheap its just the market size for such a messy process isn't exactly mass market. Most users don't need support free, isotropic, dyable, porus parts. Resin 3d printers already offer isotropic, multicolor parts with a wide variety of material options including low volume casting. SLS is mainly for engineering use as it can be great for mechanical prototyping and making complex parts that would be impossible to make if supports were needed.
