Objectively WORSE!? 

Heads up, the headphone in my hand and in the measurements of this video is a DCA Expanse, not a Stealth. I'm not sure how I made that mistake but I'm sure Andrew is responsible for it.

I LOVE this discussion! This is how discussions SHOULD be made in the audiophile community. It should be constructive and strive to make progress in discussion NOT trying to say their opinion is better than everybody else's

🥊resolve vs super, boxing match🥊

Andrew's title was super clickbait-y. Topic in fact is, IEMs performance is objectively harder to predict with current measurement methods. But, I would say, that's the issue of the methods, not the IEMs.

Once this new audio war ends, put me down as a yes for the “how to make a frequency response target” video.

I don't think a measurement war is gonna change someones preference for headphones or in-ears. More than likely it's gonna come down to their respective sound signatures (accurately measured or not) and their form factor. In fact i would argue that having a pair of both keeps things fresh.

Once you know your preference in IEMs you can hit it very consistently with various IEMs, with headphones it's a gamble every time.

Mark, great to see you're still uploading! Interesting to see your opinion on IEM's here. I didn't think much about these before your content, so your work is having a ripple effect. I'm surprised you haven't done any reviews of headphones while riding a Ninja. lol

This was a great video. Nice contrast to Resolve’s. Love hearing both sides.

Exactly. In my experience, as someone who has more experience with headphones than iems, measurements seem all around more consistent in the iem world. It seems clear that insertion depth has less effect on measurements than all the combined variables of measuring an over-ear set. The point you made about personal targets is precisely it - even though different ear shapes will change the sound from person to person, YOUR ear shape stays the same. So if iem measurements are at least fairly consistent, you can apply the differences between them to your OWN experience with the sound. And as far as tuning goes, iems are much more accessible from a price perspective, which makes it a lot easier to audition different sets and hone in on what you like

Pro tip: if you say “objectively” enough it makes what ever you say absolute truth.

These are really good points. When considering the variables that play a role at the eardrum, you can end up overthinking headphones just as much. I'd say headphones are objectively worse than IEMs in pad tax, passive isolation, keeping a good hairstyle (ok, not an issue for some), and fitting in a pocket metrics. :-)

Good timing; I just watched Andrew's vid yesterday. I agree with you, with a modification to the point about headphone positioning impacting sound: it's headphone dependent. I own the Hifiman Arya and the Audeze LCD-2, both open back planars. But moving the LCD around on my head has zero or negligible affect on the sound, while the Arya changes radically with even slight movements. Especially the distance from my head: i put 2mm foam riser rings under the Arya's pads and it radically boosts the low end. There's no comparable impact with the Audeze.

For my personal use, IEMs win most times because when kids are studying in the house, and it's cold I'm wearing a beanie, IEMs. For storage, I currently sit with 7 IEMs that I cycle through for most, not such space for headphones. Also have found that for me as a budget buyer, I can get a far better sound at the price than with headphones. Eartips are far cheaper and available in larger numbers (I have many packs of Velvets, S&S, etc) compared to earpads. For example you could buy a budget IEM for what I've recently paid for my Sennheiser HD600 replacement pads. In terms of reading squigs, I'm relatively fluent enough to know things I really won't like and what I will like more or less with IEMs. When it comes to fit, I think IEMs probably out of their sheer variations, can be a bit harder to know if an IEM will physically wear as comfortably as the next, just because if works for the other person might not wear well for you, you might need to take it out after an hour. Like I can sleep wearing the Timeless, but can't go over an hour wearing SA6 MkII. This part is less tricky on headphones, where the headband might create a hotspot on top of your head or, make your lower jaw saw after a while, this can bother one person and not another and you might find out only after purchase.

Great discussion, very interesting and would love you and Andrew get together and just continue talking about this topic. 😊 And please! Do make a guide on how to create your own preference line, I would love to learn that, and I think many others would as well. Great content as always, thank you 👍

Great meeting you Mark at CanJam NY this past weekend! Loved this review and would LOVE to see a video showing how to create your own personal target.

Which is why I made my own target and documented it, but I can't post it because RU-vid deletes comments with links.

I am wondering if interaction with pinna gives headphones advantage over IEMs. In my experience headphones can sound more natural and engaging than IEMs regarding timbre and sooundstage.

I had the same feelings when I watched that video from The Headphone Show. To me most of what has been said against IEMs translates to headphones as well. And I am not biased, I love and I own both IEMs and big headphones. Peace!

I have zero idea what my ear canals look like. There are so many factors how we could interpret the sound differently. I really wonder if drinking coffee would affect the sound. Thanks for making this video.

This is very true. Having bought a headphone model 3 times before the difference in sound between supposedly the same model was remarkable. This turned out to be slight driver variances but more importantly the clamp pressure was not consistent which meant some were to loose and some were a little tighter which affects the bass and mid to air frequencies more than people would realise.

In the red corner we have Resolve wearing glasses with a squarer shape, In the blue corner we have Super Review wearing glasses with a rounder shape LoL

Interesting discussion!

Oh please, god please, much needed tutorial for the personalized iem target and this was just so satisfying to watch As i am myself a hardcore iem guy not that headphones are bad, again preference... So satisfying to prove Andrew 'objectively' wrong

Oh I love this! Gets tiresome being told one thing over another is right for everyone.

From my experience, the vast majority of the time iem measurements have correctly predicted the tonal balance of the iem. I have personally purchased over 50 iems since 2005. And I've look at many many graphs. The only thing the graph doesn't predict is technical aspects (soundstage, imaging, etc). Now with headphones I would say the graphs have been slightly less predictive (I sometimes wear glasses). Even when I don't wear glasses I purchase some headphones which sounded grainy (and slightly harsh) than headphones that sounded smoother but the graphs showed the opposite. I think that may be because of how my head is shaped and the different design of the headphone. But i do agree that great $400-$700 headphones sound better than $1000-$1500 iems. For example, my Hifiman Edition XS is better sounding than my UM Mest mk2.

Resolves video was goofy tbh. It started with clickbait and then tried to justify the clickbait with a bunch of facts irrelevant to what was stated in the clickbait. Can’t knock the hustle, but that video was silly.

Nicely Done. Looking forward to your video on making my own target.

would be cool to see a video on making your own target!

I also found his video kinda weird... Wouldn't there be less factors that can go wrong when you measure an IEM vs a over ear headphones? Seal (tips) + insertion depth VS Seal (glasses, beard, head shape/clamp force, pads, etc.) + ear shape ???

Great video! This shows your passion for the hobby or niche. Appreciate the points mentioned.

Can you make a video helping us find our ideal target? Thank you!

For me iems are a more inclusive way for more people to join the audiophile community. They are by and large more affordable themselves, they don't require amps to power, they are portable, and right now there are so many more interesting options and companies making interesting products. There is a gatekeeper-ness to headphones because you need so much more than just the headphones to get a "HiFi experience."

Would love to see a video on how to create your own Target!

IEMs are SUBJECTIVELY worse for me because I can't stand shoving things in my ears 🤣 Also, for some reason I find open back headphones sounding more natural than IEMs. Maybe it's due to my ear canal being occluded less with open backs, but idk. I'm no expert in this 😂😂

I think the most important part of what Resolve mentions is that IEMs bypass pinna, making it difficult to tune IEM to sound natural. Because everyone's pinna are different, it's not possible to simulate different ear gains for each person through tuning. On the other hand, the headphone do go through pinna, so it gets the most natural ear gain for each person's own anatomy, thus objectively superior than IEM.

I love IEMs. I never use to like earphones, but i was always buying crappy ones from the stores, and being disappointed. I would then go back to listening to music with either my Creative Aurvana Live or the SHP9500. I bit the bullet when the Tin T2 came out, and i have been hooked ever since.

Please, PLEASE make a video about creating your own preferred FR! Great video, sir.

My ears are extremely sensitive so that's why not going to enjoyable SIMGOT ew 200 FiiO FD11 vs Blon bl-03. For better treble with less harshness.Better lows,mids,soundstage,imaging,vocals,better warm sound,clarity,deepness. For movies,podcast,arabic quran. Is FiiO FD11 significantly better for a beginner?

I guess people into measurements will find this discussion interesting, but even the best IEMs have never sounded mind blowing to me. They are in the same category as bluetooth headphones; it is about convenience. Cheaper, truly portable, and usually easy to drive. You can be an audiophile for 150 bucks [cheapo phone, dongle, and an IEM], so that is cool for the future. In Asia it is already a reality, many places are too hot much of the year for full size headphones, and many want to be on the go with minimal gear. As dystopian as it sounds they are probably the future, but are they better? I guess it depends on the situation.

The only thing we can agree on is, regardless if it's iem or over ear, FR graphs can easily be manipulated during testing and or gathering graph results.

You're too sweet to the point that Resolve will probably fall in love with you as opposed to beefing. Great video Mark!

A headphone still has to assume the effects the rest of your head and upper torso have on sound.

There is always a thin line in both the cases where everyone even you and Andrew will be agreeing to.... Every iem, earphone or headphone is tuned and has a specific graph.... It won't respond differently for different person.... Where the difference comes is what kind of seal everyone gets in or on their ears.... So both of you are kind a conversing without any substantial witness.... Thats just my personal opinion.... I personally have tried both iems and headphones and I would always stick to iems.....

Definitely sipping tea from my 5128 Resolve mug as I watch this.

I think graphs in general are just overly emphasized at the moment. People think they can use eq to simulate iems with totally different internals and build dimensions and expect to be listening to an accurate representation of something. Just because you match an FR graph doesn't mean you're listening to the same thing and that irritates the hell out of me.

There's a factor even more obscure than rig variations or personal anatomy that rarely gets mentioned - listening volume levels. Equal loudness curves show that something can be neutral or V-shape depending (one example) on the given playback volume. I'm sure plenty of people are aware of this but I feel it isn't repeated enough.

If we were actually using IEMs for monitoring, it would be better to bypass as much of individual differences as possible. In theory, bypassing outside of your ear should be a good thing :D

I'm selling my Edition XS because it's annoying having something on top of your head for hours lol

3D binaural mics bake in the ear shape into the sound way more than a headset or iem will by itself. Technically iems are better at playing exactly what's recorded.

Earpads on headphones get worn out, some of them very easily and that also messes up with fr, significantly. This can mess up both measurements and the way people perceive sound. Silicon tips don't suffer from this as much.

Right now I am really curious if Andrew somehow respond to this video

Yeah the problem with his video is pretty much just the title. All hed have to do is clarify that it's the inconsistent measurements and subpar rig capabilities that's the main focus of the video. Because that doesnt necessarily have anything to do with the quality of iems at all

Yes graphs are super helpful but god damn I dont listen to sine waves in an anechoic chamber and my ears are not some coupler. Audio perception is very subjective and as you metioned not everyone likes the same signature. Same goes for fit and comfort. In the end I listen to music not gear.

Just like your opinions matter Mark, a balance of other people is no bad thing - but when you account for music "taste", that brings more difference in a review score than the physical measurement ever will... ;) Shine on you crazy diamond...

Being harder to measure is not a good argument for being the worst audio device, but if you take this question at face value and not overthink it it's really not that subjective, the thing I don't like the audiophile community and creators is that the don't spill the tea and don't tell viewers the stereotypes when making a comparison like this, when I was new in the this space that confused me so much ,like If I had 300$ and I want an audio gadget and I don't mind whether it's an iem or a headphone just tell me which one is the most audio for my money not just in their context, ,for example the hd600 or the blessing 3 which are both class leading in their space, so after watching reviews for both of them you I thought they will have the same quality, but they're really not, no one told me that iems generally are a compromise to headphones, so when they say the blessing 3 sounds good for 300$ they mean in the context of iems not not the best for that price overall, not telling the obvious thing for you as a reviewer will confused the viewers who doesn't know it.

I agree that iems are more personal. But I also think most people are not trying to make their own target when watching reviews. And if they were making their own target, wouldn't they want to measure and make sure the measurements are most representative to them? I also really like the idea of iems, mostly due to their ability to close out outside sounds while still sounding good and their portability. But I also have a massive gripe that the cable noise you get from iems is so much worse for me than they are to headphones, to the point where if I am walking around at all, I am hearing all the noise of the cable and iem moving around in my ear. I bring up subjective points to illustrate that I never would have learned these things without trying stuff and my subjective opinion. I just think they are too personal to be objectively better than headphones.

What am I to do? My two headphone heroes are locked in mortal combat! 🫣

iems can have many BA drivers, ESTs and DDs, where headphone only 1 driver. I feel iems easy to tune and deliver great sound with cheaper price.

Some people thinks just becouse iem size is a lot smaller than headphones means better sound..than i m gonna say something..i had 70 dollars iems that sound better in any aspect than the sennheiser 6xx..not only this..but i have 25 dollars iems that make you forget 200 dollara hesdphones..mine doesnt want to be take position..becouse we are here beckuse we all love listening music..the future are the iem..

First comment!! Just need to watch the video next ( having just bought a chord mojo 2 and moving it with my IEMs and headphones!). I love my IEMs , they can be more intimate than my headphones. Having both is great.

If you measure S8 without your glasses, you may not see very well and measure it wrong 😂🙈

Good stuff, agree on every point.

But Mark, everyone loves the 10db tilt target!

I personally either like the tuning and technicalities of audio device or I don't. There goes all the graphs, statistics, averages, and hours of autistic rants about what is basically "chocolate" vs "vanilla" flavor where you just look silly trying to uniform one of the most subjective hobbies there are.

When I saw the title of headphones shows' video, the only thought came to mind was, "aight, someone gonna release a thesis about how Funta's being better than Cola". Whatever you say man, whatever you say.

Ohhh yeah MRS going hardcore arc

Smh. I gotta not wear my glasses and not be able to read anything in front of me just to get some bass

Love both of you guy, I don't want to take side 😢

Calling something objectively better/worse when sure the differences are basically objective, but the metrics of goodness being used to judge those differences are kind of questionable.

Heading for 70k…👍❤️ These are so nerdy discussions😆 but I understand , what really is a thing is that if I think about let say 4 IEMs I love and 4 Headphones I love + some DAC amp I love Iam getting to around $40 000 😆😆❗️❤️

Void* Review

Fight! Fight! Fight! 👊😅

iems are for perfectly shaped ears

headphones is ancient technology iem is the future

2 channel > headphones > iems… however: < 500 for iems < 2500 go hps > 3k go 2 channel

I’m sorry I almost always disagree with Andrew’s opinions. So much so I know if he’s rec’d a product that means he, precog and crin are all prolly on the same page which means really thin, no musicality and shrill brightness to provide fake resolution. So I have no respect for this opinion - especially since its clearly just biased if he had indeed looked at it objectively bed have realized the counter argument mark is making. As it’s totally obvious

Good stuff! Thanks for firing back

Ear infections, accidental high volume scenario, everytime screwing inside ear canal:HOLD MY 🍺

🌶 No measurement will ever be able to account for brain burn-in. 🌶

Unlike Tyson you guys can't bite ears off, you need those in your line of work.

Let's gooo

Haven't watched either video yet but Andrew did nothing wrong here. 😂

Me who has watched neither video yet: Flathead earbuds still reign supreme.

I feel like iems are objectively worse in that they are worse for objectivity.

Objectively clickbait, typical of r/headphones youtuber.

Can't we all just [throw our measurement rigs in the closet for a while and listen to some music] get along?!

Loudspeakers rule! Headphones and IEMs are for losers