Nice video! I highly recommend you to read the book written by the most important rose horticulturist and researcher in China, Wang Guoliang (王国良), his book 'Chinese Old Roses' (中国古老月季). But I am not sure if there is an English version of it. Basically the English word 'rose' means at least three words in Chinese, which are yueji (Rosa chinensis), meigui (Rosa rugosa), and qiangwei (Rosa multiflora). These 3 species had been cultivated in China for a long long time. And also been cross-bred for a long time, that's why it's confusing. But Rosa chinesis (yueji) gain its popularity since the circa. 1000 AD. So the 'old' roses that introduced to Europe in the 1789 were not that 'old', but in order to differientate with the 'modern roses', we call the ancient and old roses in just one word 'old roses', such as the '4 studs'. But of course, many ancient and old varieties/cultivars have been lost through time, either they lost popularity and distinct, or confused by people because the text and image description can't be as powerful as photos. The '4 studs' brought up as a concept quite late, probably around the 1600s to 1700s. Their names are: 老月月红 Lao Yue Yue Hong, Rosa chinensis, 'Old Blush', aka Parson's Pink China 半重瓣月月红 Ban Chong Ban Yue Yue Hong, Rosa semperflorence, aka 'Semper's Crimson China' 粉晕香水 Fen Yun Xiang Shui, Rosa odorata, 'Pink Blush', aka 'Hume's Blush Tea-Scented China' 黄香水 Huang Xiang Shui, Rosa odorata, 'Double Light Yellow', aka 'Park's Yellow Tea-Scented China' As they contribute the yellow, red, multiple blooming, and scent. (I don't know why it's called tea-scent, but... anyway) So to call the western roses 'meigui' is not accurate, as Rosa rugosa has been cultivated in China locally for a long time. So was qiangwei (Rosa multiflora). So in today's flower market in China, no matter if it is western rose (modern rose that bred in Europe, or in modern China) or Chinese old roses, they are all referred as yueji (Rosa chinensis) for convenience, also for a partial fact that modern roses all have Chinese DNA.
Thanks so much - very helpful. I feel like most of my folk-history of roses is heavily recycled from 20th English rose books, so I'm very appreciative of a new source of information. I've been asking around about the rose featured in this clip: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-b-cSUIajg6M.html and wondering about the cultivar. It looks like modern hybrid to me, but grown at commercial-scale. Not to taint anyone's answers, but I also heard somewhere that the rose 'Gruss and Teplitz' is a fairly common variety in asia, and kind of matches the look - although from the HMF description, might be a little taller in general.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm OK. I’m trying to identify the rose. It is said in the video the rose is called 滇红重瓣玫瑰（Dian Hong Chong Ban Mei Gui, meaning Yunnan Red multiple petals Rosa rugosa, here again, confused with the meigui and yueji）, and the name makes it look local from Yunnan, but it doesn’t have an old look. In my opinion, it is definitely a modern rose. I’ll keep on searching for more details.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I’ve done some research and fell into a rabbit hole now. My feeling told me this rose is NOT an ancient/old rose, but more like modern rose, considering the leaves shape, the petals, etc. And it looks like ‘Gruss und Teplitz’ in many aspects, but no solid evidence. We need to compare them side by side. So I searched the Chinese name for the rose, and seems like no info about the origin of it. Then I searched the food recipe. It seems like this rose cake was originated about 300 years ago (again, no solid evidence), but the suspicious ancient recipe used the term meigui (Rosa rugosa), so either the ancient people were confused too, or the modern people used Rosa chinensis to replace it, or, this cake is a rather new invention and they made up the story of its origin. A lot of folk food like to do so in many cultures. An interesting thing is, this cake got popular after a famous food producer mass produced it after 1945. So I think, maybe the popular recipe was based on the cake manufacturer after 1945, and they used this specific edible rose, which means, maybe, this rose was found/bred before 1945. Considering the wars never stopped in China from 1840 to 1940, I like to believe that the cake manufacturer revisited the old recipe (if there was one) and modified it and used a modern rose that was edible and red/magenta in the 1940s. Could it be ‘Gruss und Teplitz’? Maybe. But if so, how it was introduced to China was unknown.
Thanks for your insight. I thought the rose was lovely, and of course the setting and videography helps to make them especially attractive. The source I read (somewhere on Helpmefind I think) was that Gruss an Teplitz grew so nicely in warmer climates like Pakistan and India that it became a go-to commercially planted cultivar - known there as the Desi rose. It's genetically hybrid China/Bengale so I guess it wouldn't be surprising for it to suit the climate. I don't have any particular reason to think it made its way into cultivation in China, so I may be inappropriately filling in the blanks.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Great! I’ve talked to a rose grower friend yesterday who’s based in Yunnan (where the roses are named after). He told me that many people regard this rose as a local rose as “it’s always been there”, but he said it definitely has Damask gene in it and only became popular after the 1950s. This rose faced a crisis because it wasn’t popular and rose nurseries decided to eliminate it, until that famous cake brand I mentioned started to use it in their recipe, and that gave lots of rose growers support. And it survived. So in conclusion, this is a modern rose with Damask genes, so it definitely was introduced to China between 1900s and 1940s. Not ‘always’ been there. The ‘Gruss an Teplitz’ looks like another edible roses in Yunnan, called ‘墨红‘ Mo Hong (Dark Red), another popular edible rose. So maybe, in the cooking video, the caption of the rose name was wrong. And still, the origin of Mo Hong is also unknown. The rose family is as confusing as the citrus…..
I have been watching your channel for a while and I LOVE this series that covers old roses! In fact, Chinese roses are called 月季（yueji） in China, meaning blooming every month and every season, particularly in warmer climates. You just covered the four most common ones. Chinese also call old Western roses 玫瑰 (meigui) or 蔷薇（qiangwei）depending on the size and whether they are in clusters. And the biggest difference separating Chinese roses and old Western roses is how much thorn they have. Chinese roses have only a few or no thorns while old Western roses have a lot. You also have covered the color bit. The hybrids between them is another story.
Thank you so much for your knowledge. With such a long history in cultivation in China, I'm sure there's quite a lot to know. I love how smooth and graceful the stems are on near-Chinese hybrids, and I will have to add more to my collection.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I would love to plant some if I have a yard. I grew up in a community where people just used the wild re-bloomer Chinas for fencing. The fragrance was one of the best memory I have from my youth, not to mention the beautify butterflies and birds they attracted.
Hi Jason, so glad you are working to help preserve antique roses. I found it! The Paul’s Scarlet climber. Floribunda climber developed by William Paul in England. Paul’s Carmine Pillar x Reve de’Or. Rosaceae family. It is a rambler. 1916 royal national rose Society gold medal winner.
Just stumbled across this video on old roses. I will definitely go & find the others in the series. I am a rose geek & over half of my roses are antique roses so this is must watch for me.
I will never look at a red rose the same ever again!! My grandma has a dark red tall cup bloom rose...that I need to go get cuttings of! 🌹 thanks again for all the great vids!
An excellent, educational experience on roses. I enjoy all your videos but this one has brought back readings that by now I have forgotten. I love all flowers nature offers us, but yes, roses stay deeply in my heart’s delight. Thank you.
I loved this series of old garden roses. Maybe you can do a series on the individual or groups of roses, themselves, to increase awareness of these special cultivars. We planted teas, polyanthas, and chinas in our yard years ago, and they’ve flourished despite our drought conditions without extra irrigation. Roses tend to have a reputation of being difficult, but that truly hasn’t been my experience.
I have Gloria d’Jion (Old Glory), a apricot yellow Noisette and Varigata de Bologna. Gloria has good disease resistant and blooms well in part shade. Varigata tends to get black spot. Sombriel has been a reliable climber in my garden. Thanks for story of roses.
Thank you so much for presenting these talks. They are so informative and I really do enjoy them so much. I’m in England but nevertheless a great deal of information is general and so useful for us. I personally don’t buy David Austin roses as I want to help preserve the beautiful old ones. We have The Historic Roses Group here which is a great source of information but not many videos like yours! Well done.
Wow, another wonderful video, and it partially answers my questions about how we can be assured that the Red Rose of Lancaster really was Gallica officinalis (which does't even look red to me, but hey)... that the vivid red roses we are familiar with today had to await the introduction of the China roses, is that a fair statement?
Thank you for this great series! Would you consider also a video diving deeper into the Noisette and Hybrid musk varieties? That would be very helpful!
I have a beautiful "Bloomfield abundance"/"spiced Cecile Brugner"...in a big terracotta vase and it grew bigger and bigger in just 2 years...Italian weather agree with it
Hey Jason, awesome videos with such a wealth of knowledge selflessly outed to us. Really kind of you. Regards from a novice (really more like a fetus 😄) rose gardener from Uganda. Any hardy garden roses for the equatorial climate?
I suppose when you say hardy you mean tolerant of the warmer conditions? I can't say a lot from personal experience, but you could check out the collection at Florida Southern College in a similar climate.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm awesome thanks..... want to try out climbers for a home project, so been doing lots of reading. I have an old climber in my compound and it has spread its tentacles everywhere, no one dares approach coz its as thorny as they get. Did a prune after watching yo vids sometime back and voila! delicate pink ruffled flowers which pales to white at the bottom started popping after nearly five years just sitting idle, I was like woow! I dont suppose you could know the name of this one? i tried the the helpme find website but its a massive catalogue tho will keep checking ... wish i could send u a picture. Thanks again , you really do impact positively!
I have China Doll roses (polyanthus). I never really cared much for rose bushes until I got the China Doll rose bush. Now I’m addicted. Though I rarely see them for sale and there’s NO RU-vid videos on them. Can you do a video on China Dolls?
I’m 15 and want to get into roses. I really like species and old garden roses. I tend to not like ones with very odd names which is probably why I lean towards species roses. I’m actually thinking of maybe breeding my own?
Hi! Do you have any recommended resources for growing these older roses? I’m looking for advice on pruning, fertilizing and caring for these old garden roses. Thank you!
Thanks Mary - I'll add it to my list of videos to make. I generally have just mentioned any relevant differences in the individual topic videos: "When to Prune your Rose" for example. Otherwise, care instructions are pretty similar.
Thanks for telling me about this rose. I read a couple of articles, and it seems there's some confusion about what is the authentic "Rosa de Castilla". Helpmefind has the "Castile" rose as the Autumn Damask, other sites reference Castilla as Rosa gallica - but based on the pictures I saw, the blooms were fuller and more rounded than you might expect for either of those, almost like R. centifolia. Who knows if I'm even looking at authentic examples? It might be that the only way to be sure is to collect the rose from a known specimen.
