Think about Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight! He went from being the White Knight to freakin Two Face because his girlfriend blew up in the middle of proposing to him.😥
Daredevil lost a bunch of people close to him as well. Also, in the series, sure they’re pretty even but that’s it. In the comics Matt has kicked Punishers ass.
@@bait5257 Daredevil did not let grief overcome him. It’s different for everyone yes. But I was replying to the guy saying he was on thin ice. I’m saying Daredevil isn’t since he’s more than capable of whooping Frank.
Which is stupid because we do get to choose. Nobody forced him to do the thing that "fixes" him. Excuses. He picked to kill people. He needs to embrace it and not make excuses.
0:16 that right there. What Matt isn't aware of is that Frank has a very different type of trauma. He says he isn't the only one as if it was a normal thing, because all these outlaw superheroes lost people who were important to them, and Matt is especially used to losing people that are close, so this high horse feels natural to him, but the possibility which he doesn't consider while playing the smartass guy looking down on the one out of controll, is the one when you lose someone you wouldn't eventually outgrow and burry. When you are abandoned, you have to be able to stand on your own, physically and emotionally, when you lose a parent, a mentor, you have to grow up fast, yes, Matt knows that very well, just like many other heroes of the MCU do. But when you lose your kids and wife, the people you were supposed the care about, ones that were supposed to grow old with you and outgrow you, that is very different.
I can agree with Punisher's point of view. Losing someone is an experience people share, but the feelings or the mindset that comes out...that's different for every person.
It's not even just that, they got killed because of what he was involved with and what he knew. Its not his fault but he feels like it is and took it upon himself to make sure every single person responsible gets what they deserve, including himself as Frank is incapable of moving on and loving again, his penance is that he will be in a perpetual state of self inflicted misery and loneliness.
It is the burden of being a failure in protecting, of losing those who you feel you SHOULD have followed and the one who should have buried you. There is no greater tragedy for a parent than to bury their own children. Mix with how war changed Frank and the circumstances for WHY they died and before long? You might just have someone just like The Punisher. He's probably the coolest bit of the gritty Silver Age but you sure as SHIT wouldn't want to be him.
Punisher is RIGHT 'loss doesn't work the same for everyone ' I know this doesn't even come close to the same as losing your family but the loss of my grandfather it nearly destroyed me turned me into someone I didn't recognize lucky I found my way back
A bit late on the reply, but I agree 100%. I'm still recovering 5 years after my mother's death. Time has seemingly stopped and hobbies I enjoyed are struggling to keep me from thinking about it. Other family members seem to have things going well for them. Glad to hear you found your way back. Punisher hit the nail on the head with that line
I can relate 100% I had to watch the cancer slowly decay my grandmother but what I didnt know at the time is that I was about to watch my self slowly decay too, I was becoming someone that I said I'd rather die than become but after a year and a half of rest, pondering and moderate isolation im starting to become someone better and spirituality stronger than I was before my grandmother died slowly, yeah, but surely
@@drexbrightblade I can relate, my mother died two years back and it left me adrift, I picked up other things to try to move on, I was at least old enough and blessedly wise enough to recognize isolation just makes it worse. Then 2020 happened and all we could really DO was isolate. It will never be OK and I feel that's fine, just never let it get you down for to dwell or try to MAKE it OK will drive one into apathy if not lunacy.
I'm so sorry for all of you guys. Hope you're all doing better now and I wish you the best. I've never lost anyone yet and I can't imagine what I would do when something eventually happens.
Actually the city asked him. It's really symbolic. The city was suffering and millions wished and hoped to be saved. Daredevil is a product of the failure of the system and corruption of the city.
In hindsight, it's true. This is something even comic book writers criticize. Because if your a mask vigilante, there's something not right with you. Sure, even if you did suffer trauma when you were young, there's no way that a lawyer is going to go beating up people, even if they are criminals, in order to get answers, and still be scene as sane.
the game between daredevil and castle, their conversations about what is right, frank's trial and media surrounding the punisher, it was the best "punisher" ever, way better than "punisher" show itself.
@@montenegroafro4454 I think they both are great. I think Daredevil season 2 gets to the nitty gritty of why frank castle is doing what he's doing. And Punisher series is Frank realizing that there's always more to the story than just shooting people. I thought season 2 was great outside of how they did jigsaw. Him protecting the girl I think gave him a little of his humanity back, on top of seeing that with his personal revenge done he cant go back to a life that is normal and theres always scumbags that need punishing.
Punisher is right in the case that loss is different for everyone. The loss of my grandfather to cancer, 2 uncles to cancer and a uncle to covid each was different. Guilt, regret, and numbness. Loss and grieving is process where everything is different. You don’t know what to expect and what to feel due to different situations.
1:05 that says it all, all it takes is ONE bad day for a man’s sanity to break and he’ll be forever lost to the never-ending cycle of lunacy, rage, hatred and bitterness because if you take everything away from a good man, he’ll be ready to go to war since he’s already got nothing to lose…
If Punisher met Tony Stark when he was selling weapons he wouldn’t of hesitated to put a bullet in him because of his company selling weapons to terrorists. If he did that there would be no Iron Man so Punisher is definitely not perfect but very understandable
Can I just note that heroes like Batman and Daredevil are extremely selfish in their ideology. Villains like Joker and Kingpin stay around and hurt millions BUT nooooo we cant kill them.
The biggest problem I have with that remark is why wouldn’t anybody else kill them, just because they refuse to kill why is it that they are at fault and not the cops . It’s like saying guts in berserk is at fault for the eclipse because he left Griffith. There is more complication to that, people have ideologies and they have their own moral compass that they have to use to justify what they do and if Batman kills the joker, and he keeps killing because of that what is the moral compass and what makes him better than the criminals he fights. to quote Godzilla Mendoza (who is a huge fan of the punisher) “ he’s a borderline serial killer, and if you find what he does to be justifiable and right then you’re just out of touch with reality as he is” Like Bro why not fault the cops for not shooting joker, And why put the weight of the responsibility of saving hundreds of thousands on one person that seems more selfish to me then not taking joker out
To be fair in the Comics there is a logically reason for not arresting or killing Kingpin and it's that he controls so much of New York's crime territory that if he was suddenly taken down and out of the picture the resulting gang war for control would kill countless people even Punisher understands this.
@@nibbanibba5064 About the justifiable part, maybe he needs to understand that reality is different to everyone. His version of reality is different to the next person’s and just because he doesn’t find it in him to do what needs to be done, then that’s on him, not the rest of the world. You think Child Rapists see anything wrong with what they’re doing? You think in their reality they’re the bad guys? No. They think they’re doing something perfectly fine. Does that mean anyone who doesn’t do it is a touch out of reality? No. So then why can he say so but not a child rapist? Does the Punisher have a screw loose? Absolutely. But are the people he’s killed good people? Nope. Are they innocent? Nope. Do they deserve a second chance? Also no. The punisher has killed over 40,000 people. If you had any good in you, you would quit that line of work and change your life. But those that don’t, the people that remain, they have no intentions on changing or doing good in their lives. They only intend on hurting innocent people to their hearts content. And for that, they need to be punished. Because if the justice system can’t, someone has to. That’s the idea behind the Punisher. Punishing those that need punishing. There’s one difference between the Punisher and Batman. And it’s that the Punisher’s methods are far more effective. Look at the Punisher for your moral code. He doesn’t kill innocents. Protecting them with his life, letting targets go to make sure innocents aren’t killed, and even giving himself up so innocent people don’t die. In truth, Batman simply doesn’t want to kill because he’s afraid he’ll be live every other murderer. Not a moral compass. He’s the richest person in Gotham. His money and time would save Gotham from its corruption but he chooses to go out in his Bat suit and beat people up. As for the police, I would agree and disagree. Some officers need the money to provide for their families. Gordon’s family depends on his salary. Killing the Joker while he’s beaten half to death would certainly make him lose his job, despite saving countless thousands of lives. Same with other officers. And while yes, some officers could kill the Joker, they would be sent to prison, with people they sent there. Not a great combo. I blame Batman because he was given multiple chances yet he chooses not to. Time and time again the joker shows his true face. Killing innocents, blowing buildings up, evading taxes, etc. What does the Batman do? Savior of Gotham? He gives the Joker another chance. Believing there’s a way to fix him. That he can be fixed. And that is what the Joker abuses in Batman. That scrap of good in him. Batman quotes knowing every person killed by the Joker and he says he takes responsibility for their lives. If this were true (I don’t buy it for a second) then in what world are all of their lives worth less than the Joker? 1 innocent life is worth more than the Joker’s. Shall I mention what he did to Todd? A literal child? He beat him, tortured him physically and mentally for years. Years. Faked his death to Batman and what does Batman do? He sends him to prison for it, which he later escapes anyway as he always does. Hell, it’s Deathstroke who finds Todd in Arkham. Deathstroke was told by Batman to be a bad guy. What does Deathstroke do? He feeds Todd, gets him to full strength and trains him. And sure, Batman eventually gets to him, but that’s mostly because Todd knows Bruce and still loves him
@@snakevenom4954 So what I heard is that you blame Batman, there’s only one difference between the punisher and Batman with it being their given methods, I don’t know why you’re blaming the person that actively tries to beat the shit out of criminals and bring them to justice by not killing them, you can’t really lay that type of pressure on a guy that already put enough pressure to kill 10 men. You shouldn’t blame Batman for not killing the man that killed innocence, you should be blaming the people that killed those innocent people. Batman‘s perspective can easily be flawed in many regards and that’s where Jason Todd comes in the play In which he actively criticizes the way Bruce attends to his duties. It’s a fair point that Bruce has inadvertently let so many people die including the ones close to him, put a blame him solely for the death of those that are killed by criminals that made their decisions you act like it’s Batman‘s decision to ice the innocent. And it wasn’t. Batman is flawed and especially in the Arkham games Jason Todd’s death is actively bullshit, but it would be complete lunacy to blame the death of innocent people on Batman. Blame the cops as well as Batman if you’re not gonna and have them kill joker or something. So what if they go to prison they’ll be saving everybody apparently. As much of a piece of shit as somebody can be it’s kind of hard for somebody to justifiably kill somebody and end a life in their brain, because it’s not about the other person it’s about themselves . Also Batman gives his money to multiple charities, The Gotham police station, and rebuilding the city every fucking time a criminal destroys it, also fuck the IRS I don’t know why you’re sucking the government stick but that’s just dumb bruh. The punisher and Batman are way fucking different, Batman more stoic, sympathetic , and forgiving person then Frank castle. The punisher kills people that do deserve it but he himself is a monster amongst monsters. He has little to no emotion with the death of the criminals that he kills and he almost enjoys it out of a sadistic pleasure and the purpose that he gives in, He lives for nothing other than to kill people because that’s what he considers his duty in life because he was an emotionally void of a human being after the war(Whatever fucking war give your pick, it’s usually Vietnam or Iraq or some shit like that) And while he grieves his family, he kills because he has an enjoyment out of it. The main author that everybody quotes for the punisher being the best writer for the character is the one who arguably wrote about Frank Castle being the biggest asshole, And the madman’s name is Garth Ennis who wrote punisher max. He also wrote punisher kills the Marvel universe where he actively justifies the fact that superheroes are terrible people because they were responsible for the death of his family and that’s what he decided to have his vengeance against. Punisher killed innocent people like Spider-Man, The X-Men, The avengers, and daredevil. And he blasted his fucking brains out because in the end it wasn’t worth the revenge because he realized he was in the wrong, In the end the story basically said the punisher doesn’t kill people because he thinks it’s right he does it because he likes to do it and he’ll use any excuse to justify it to himself that it’s worth what he’s doing That’s why the punisher is a great character now because of what his actions show how virtuous he is, but because he’s a scary violent nutcase of a man with no soul anymore. In actuality Batman would basically be the punisher if he was not bound by his killing rule. That’s what builds interest in the character because he edges on the edge of insanity every day
@@snakevenom4954 Also the punisher killed somebody that was just profiting off of drugs being sold in a foreign nation, This person had worked with the punisher and Castle blew his fucking head off
"I don't do this to hurt people." "But you DO hurt them, you may find some reason to justify it, but deep down you know you enjoy it. You enjoy taking these thugs out one after another, that's why you keep going back for more. The difference between you and I though is that you put them in a cell that they'll eventually get out of, but I put them in the ground so they'll never hurt anyone ever again."
He's naive but the world does need someone like him to give people chances...unfortunately the world also needs a Frank Castle because the people who didn't take the second chance given will get justice one way or another
See, there were these two guys in a lunatic asylum… and one night, one night they decide they don’t like living in an asylum any more. They decide they’re going to escape! So, like, they get up onto the roof, and there, just across this narrow gap, they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in the moon light… stretching away to freedom. Now, the first guy, he jumps right across with no problem. But his friend, his friend didn’t dare make the leap. Y’see… Y’see, he’s afraid of falling. So then, the first guy has an idea… He says “Hey! I have my flashlight with me! I’ll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk along the beam and join me!” B-but the second guy just shakes his head. He suh-says… He says “Wh-what do you think I am? Crazy? You’d turn it off when I was half way across!
That line was so wonderful. It shows multiple angles of Batman’s pitch to Joker with the idea of rehabilitation. His method for offering rehab was insanity in and of itself, but Joker is less worried about that insanity and more worried that any help he got would be pulled out from under him
The thing is, punisher isn’t grieving. He wanted the excuse all along. So there is no appealing to the fact that everyone loses people, it means nothing to him anymore
And in S3, Matt had his "bad day," (Midland Circle), completely lost almost everyone he loved (Elektra and Stick), and had his entire identity shattered. But instead of becoming another Punisher, he became Born Again into a better version of himself and proved Frank wrong.
He almost lost everyone after all. Just like Frank says that the loss doesn't work for everyone the same and he still can have his another bad day. Just what will happen if he loses foggy and Karen? What do you think does left an guy when he has nothing to lose? An guy dressing an devil and beating people up is no where near sane.
@@Ricky-ro9wf Ben Affleck’s Batman lost Dick Grayson, and im pretty sure that would cause any version of Batman to start killing. It’s not the best creative decision, but it’s justified at least
@@Rclarke115 His philosophy is to punish the guilty so the innocent can live. He doesn’t kill innocents. Going as far as letting targets get away or even giving himself up so innocent people can live. The Joker kills innocent people. Don’t try and compare the two like they’re similar, they’re not. The only thing they have in common is killing terrible people and even at that, the punisher has the joker outnumbered several times over. That’s why he’s not a villain
Nah, Jigsaw was a whack job who “despised” murderers. Yet he killed people and claimed it was their own choice. At least Frank knows what he is and doesn’t bullshit. Although I’m not hating on Jigsaw. I think his character is amazing and really interesting. Tobin Bell was perfect to play him. Same as Jon Bernthal was perfect for Frank.
I'm leaning more towards Frank. The percentage of people who would change because they got beatdown and couple of years in prison is so small it aint worth trying to change them + If there were few millions of people, life would be more precious, but 8 billion people? we don't need to gamble whether or not someone will change, we can lose half of our population overnight and everything would work just fine. Everyone is expendable and that's why punishments should be much stricter.
Bro daredevil doesn’t know loss like Frank, sure he lost his dad but Frank watched his entire family get brutally murdered infront of him and later found out it was because of his bestfriend, his brother, over success and money. That’s a different type of loss that daredevil doesn’t know shit about and then he tries to hit him with “boohoo with all lost somebody,” speech when Daredevil only lost one person. He’s got his friends, hell his mothers still alive, that man got no right to be talking about loss to frank
Knowing the punisher’s background when Red said “Boo Hoo” that’s mad restraint and why Punisher’s a hero. If he was unhinged like he said? He would’ve beaten him to death but he wants to do good and be the same superhero. Shows mad restraint and why Frank Castle is a good man with his morales.
This is another reason why Castle doesn't like doing it "right." Out-of-touch and dismissive responses on his tragedies make him lose hope on waiting for the justice system to set things right.
@@lakvindersingh4632 I would love to see a party where Captain America and Punisher talk about their experiences in war. Captain America despises Punisher but I would love to see the Punisher showing Steve he’s almost exactly like the Punisher only he deals with big threats and the Punisher is more street level/mafias
Although I, as many people were, was sad that they canceled these shows after it’s short run, maybe it was for the best. These shows were good because all their seasons were written great but maybe if they had ran for many years the quality would’ve been lost. Some shows just need to end at their peak so the quality isn’t lost and I believe that’s what we got. Very short but very good seasons of television
I understand the flaws with letting people like punisher run around but I agree with his ideology... As a vigilante if you break the law to protect society, you should finish the job... Because Judges and jury and the system are only as much qualified to make a decision on another person's life as you are! If you put a criminal away and he comes back and harms someone else, That makes the hero as much guilty as the criminal he fought and put away!!
Loss doesn't work the same for everyone, and last but not least, the famous quote, "All it takes is one bad day to drive the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where i am, just one bad day." Take the Joker and the Punisher for example. Both of them went through shit in life, but they turned out differently. Both of them are insane, BUT I don't think the Punisher is completely unhinged as the Joker is. The Joker just gave up on everything, and decided to become an agent of chaos, he's willing to destroy everything, whereas Frank still has a conscience, he only punishes the wicked. His only redemption is by putting himself in this perpetual cycle of violence and pain, to punish himself and ensure what happened to his family doesn't happen to anyone else ever again.
Frank mentions a "moment of clarity" here, I always wondered what that was. I don't recall it being mentioned in either show but maybe my memory is off
And Frank was right. One Bad day and Matt went rogue and almost killed Kingpin. All of their argues and debates, Frank is right. "You hit them and they get back up, I hit them and they stay down." World is a nasty place. But Matt has a point too "taking someone's life isn't our call. But if someone killed my family, I will gladly go to hell just to kill who did it.
