I agree, it feels incredibly harsh, almost like nuking them, leading to a significant loss of queens. While you may have the numbers to manage this, it's hard to imagine losing so many queens, especially for smaller sideliners and those with only a few colonies. It would be extremely difficult for them to recover. Ian, as always, thank you for showing us the reality and providing your honest comments and opinions.
I'm with you Ian, you don't like formic, so neither do I, I'm in Australia, we are just starting with varroa, formic pro, just come onto the market, no one yet knows what you have experienced, but I'm with you. Find something safer ,for us all. I'll wait for you & a safer, miticide 😊
I applaud your efforts to explore whether formic works in your operation. It seems as though there are too many "if, and or but" conditions to make it practical. I like the "set it forget it" aspect of OAE, and I completely understand that is not an option for commercial beeks, yet. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us! Cheers!
Thank you for the update and truthful reporting. I still have some formic pro left from last year and will try putting it on top of second brood box and pray I do not have the same bee die off as last year. Hopefully the Randy Oliver designed oa pads will make it to market in the near future.
Good for you for pressing on! So many people just give up when they have a bad experience even though so many people around seem to be using the product successfully. I'm thankful for your sharing your experience as I need to use this product too!
I guess it comes down to how important is that open brood,? One pad, zaps 5 days, second pad zaps 5 days. 10 days of brood lost just before the main flow. Not to mention the workload of queen checks and fix. Maybe it will be our only option moving forward. If so, I’ll know what to expect and develop a strategy to manage the issues. I also didn’t measure the effectiveness of the product because I have low mite counts. Using it off label recommendations might be easier on the brood and queens but is it also easier on the mites?
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Why would you treat with a nuclear bomb when your mite counts are so low? Wait until the end of the season at least before dropping the Fat Man
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlogyou know I would never write about something I didn't try myself for more times. And 60% liquid formic was my treatment until oxalic arrived in combination with brood breaks. I used it for decades in the way I wrote in detail. I know Sokak did it too. We don't write opinions
Thank you for sharing Ian! In the past I've had mixed results with formic. However the last few years I've covered the top half of the pad to slow the release down using the foil packaging and have been happy with the results using one or two pads. It slows and extends the release nicely. Nevertheless, your season is tight.
i would think it would only expel formic from one side since the foil covers the top reducing the application less than it should be. formic is heavier than air so the majority would still go to the bottom and the bees fanning circulates it around the inside of the hive.
Yep ,right or wrong I refuse to spend my time building a colony then burn it down with a treatment like formic. What's the difference if the mites kill my bees or if formic does. I'm at the point of using OA and brood breaks whenever appropriate. No more formic for me.
Knowing the parameters help immensely. It has a bit more risks, but the mite drop I have seen is insane on formic acid. But true, the weather has to be just right, not too moist, not too warm, not too cold. Personally for me this is the treatment which is best, but you gotta keep thinking and know what you are doing. Also I use the acid directly from a bottle, I dose less I suspect and underneath the bottom board. And only once so I suspect the bees only get hit 1-3 days. I see mite drops instantly
@@mattzirkle2769 respectfully I haven't seen much recovery. If they bounce back at all there isn't much of a honey crop and being behind building up going in winter they usually don't make it until spring.
We have been using formic acid as a targeted treatment for colonies with high mite counts that will not be controlled by other methods. We use sticky boards under mesh bottom boards to find high mite count hives (usually around 5-10% of hives). We have found that getting those high mite loaded hives under control will stop the spread to other hives through drift/absconding (worse in large sites + frequent shifting)and reduce the amount of treatment needed in the rest of the hives. Its worth losing a few queens and weakening a small % of hives to put those mite factories out of production. The key is being able to monitor all hives in a fast and efficient fashion. We are have been able to achieve this in a 3000 hive business
You’re very popular on RU-vid because we can feel your passion for the love of bees and the industry. It didn’t seem right you use a treatment that is harmful to bees. When I first got the treatment I thought this is the answer treating in the middle of summer no more mites but the reality of the situation was the opposite. I lost honey i lost Queens and the worst thing of all the hives become overrun with the mites . August and September hives total collapse with Verroa. That’s why I say this product should be taken off the market. when I complained about the product, they gave me a load, but I decided I’m not doing that again and burnt it.
I'm pretty sure the Formic will melt the foil (double bubble). I once put Formic below a queen excluder and in nearly ate thought the metal cross bars.
Maybe using it earlier in the year so you can recover the lost brood cycle? Obviously weather isn’t always favorable but maybe that would help you feel better about that loss of open brood
😮I’ve heard that people have had issues with Formic Pro- I just added my 2 strips last Wednesday for 14 days. -I leave foil on the top of the pad, supposed to slow the 💥harsh, fast flash off. -I also remove my entrance reducer -I take out my “inspection tray” from my Screened Bottom Board -I add an additional empty Super to aid in overall ventilation on the hive. -I have Broodminder sensors in my Hives-Bees are doing okay. -My local temperatures range from 58-63 degrees. 🤞 Good Luck.
Randy Oliver's research has shown if you leave the wrapper on the upper half of the pad, you slow the release of formic enough to have it work and not have a major kill off. That said. Placing the pad on top of the second and having the reflectics directly on top is the same in theory. If actually like to see how two pads would do like this. Maybe next year you can trial that method.
Don't be hard on yourself as beekeepers we often feel guilty when things go wrong I know we do our best job don't worry everything is going to be alright start being gratefully for all the things in life you'll see there is alot of reasons to be thankfuull
Is a solution that kills the patient really a solution? It is if you sell the stuff. I think you nailed it... most keepers are not as diligent as you and thus do not see what is actually happening when they use it. They have 'an issue' that is fixed by the application but they fail to notice the other issues as you have. thanks for sharing.
The only time I use formic is when my hive has capped queen cells. They are in a natural brood break so it is easier on the hive. Treating cap brood as it emerges.
The biggest thing with formic is to know exactly when and why you use it. I think you are choosing right, this is the wrong time of year to use it unless your mite population is out of control, in which case you have to ask what the hell you were not doing 2 months ago. For us in only makes sense as a late August use, because we often have late honey flows that push other mite treatment back into the late half of September, which risks a serious runaway mite problem. But i only use 1 strip, 1 round. And the restof fall treatment i use something else.
Seemingly, based on your last video, you may have introduced the FP a bit too early? I haven't really suffered any queen die-off, however, I only use FP between June and September, and typically only every other month. Around here (southern ON), by mid-May, that means the queens have laid out the top and bottom box. Plus, by that time, I've got my excluders on so there is plenty of pollen and nectar around. I don't think i've ever used FP early or late in the season. Prior to May I mainly rely on oxalic acid until things warm up and the flows start. I consistent use two pads per double nuc. No observable negative impacts from what I can see.
I definitely cannot blame you for stopping. Just reaffirmed other information i have seen and heard from other Beekeepers here in Saskatchewan, Formic is used with reluctance. I suppose that is why our head researcher is looking at different ways of using oxalic acid and hopefully in time can make a new synthetic but is not researching anything with formic, it is just too volatile. As Beekeepers we shouldn't have to kill half our bee population to fight mites, its just not worth it and would be totally unacceptable in any other livestock. We don't put all this effort into looking after our colonies only to kill them with miticide.
Im going to do the green drone frame method rotating 2 frames per hive to ensure continuous capping brood for the mites . I hope that was fog not dust you showed us in the wind .
I had bees at Carnduff for 2 years you had to stand with your back to the wind or your eyes would fill with dirt while wearing a veil . My freind would grow strips of sweet clover to catch the dirt as it blew by and huge strips of sweet produced a lot of honey 🍯
I use formic acid in a way different way. I guess it might not be applicable in your scale, but how I do it? I pour to a small glass bottle amount of the acid I want, eg. 50-100ml, I put a string into the bottle to let the acid vapor out. The other end of the string I attach to the small ceramic plate that works as a radiator. This way I've never killed my colonies and I can monitor, every day, how much of the acid is still in the bottle.
Let us know you choice of treatment, it appeared these crafty mites are slowly getting resistance to a lot of our synthetic treatments. Frustrating but at the end of the day u knocked down your mites. Well done
Yap, I had a filing that without a rim for a little bit of top space it wouldn't work. The air circulation is key to it. We too don't let it evaporate out through the top but some space over the frames is needed for them to be able to circulate it out through the entrance. Than you will have to make 2000 rims just to use for this treatment. I'm telling you 😅 buy a barrel of liquid.. do what we do and don't tell.. it's for rust removal 🤐😎. Jokes a side. You have to think about your flow timings. I completely understand. You already took some risks this year. It's time to think about the flow
Sorry it did not work out the way you were hoping for Ian. I mentioned I think last year to actually invest into the ProVap EZ 110 and a Honda 1000i generator. If you had invested into three or four combos this spring, which is a good investment, you could've had 3 or 4 people doing the rounds between your yards and rid these mites without any sacrifice. Wish you all the best.
Ive heard and obaerved that formic sets them back initially but they come roaring back stronger than non treated colonies perhaps due to virus killing or other effects the formic has on the colonies thatvwe may or not be aware of. I hope you will keep track of these treated colonies and report back in 6 weeks or so. Your opinion might change.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Might have to chance as I presume Apivar will be used back to back on rotation. How long will it last for? I'm sailing the same ship. When Apivar doesn't work I retire
Hey just a thought your using that foil Insulation on top maybe that's trapping the acid your not getting good air flow. Just a thought I really like this product it works well 😊 Thanks for sharing with us
I followed the suggestion of many beekeepers, to use the foil to help slow the release . It definitely helped but it’s still knocking out the open brood. That’s my sticking point
Live and learn I guess. But I agree with you, this product is not for your style of bee management. I think that is a good thing. Best of luck. Thanks for sharing. ❤
I'd rather just cage or requeen with cells just do oav treatment vs that stuff... I've been using med honey frames in the brood nest.. they draw it down drones I simply cut it off research shows that's 70% of the mite load .. drone brood in the medium frame itself I just scrape it drowning the mites let them recycle that drone juice.. I'll have to do chemical treatment Aug because I really can't get to the brood honey flow is on strong.. sumac is raining nectar in this heat wave.. definitely do something not formic Aug 1
I have a question, This is my first yr as a beekeeper and I cannot even call myself a beekeeper until at least yr 3. That Acid you are using (not down playing how it works) How do bees in the wild survive with out it and the ones we take care of need treatments like that? I am only asking because I need info and need to learn more. Sorry if you think I am a troll
First off... there are no natural honey bees in Manitoba. Second... in nature bees swarm at least once a year usually twice. This creates the brood break that knocks the mite population down to the minimum. Third... in nature the hives that 'tolerate' mites are gone. The hives that pursue the mites live. There is documented proof that breeding alone will eliminate the mite issue. Alas no one want to take 90-95 % loss off all hives for 3-4 years until we have resistant bees. Some people have already done this. It is not practical for a guy with 1500 hives to have NO income for 3 years. It is covid all over again. Herd immunity or drugs and vaccines.
Formic is just too harsh.... I do 3 rounds Oxalic vap 6 days apart, (this is in British nationals), 2 brood brakes a year works for me, every other year is use Apivar dependant on how the weather has been, maybee thymol.
We are trying this method, except we are taking the queen out and introducing a cell. OA vapour 20 days later. The broodless period certainly sets them(bees) back but I feel clean hives and new queens will make up the difference.
I don't know what a HMARA is. It's 9 years that I use a hand made that goes in the comb.. only 5×7cm excluder on both sides. My question is, if it's a small cage like mine why not release the old queen and let her lay.. if you let her she will fill all the empty cells she can find and it will be winter bees. In the meantime treat and after it change the queen. The old caged queen can give you a lot of brood and bees...
@@researcherAmateur HMARA is an tipe of excluder in a form of rectangular paraleleliped and size of 300x200x25 millimeters. Like a queen cage but the worker bee can go in and out (the queen can't). The point is that isolation of queen can be done in winter but also during the nectar flow period and treating the bees for varoa mites is better if there is no brute. Also during the spring old queen can be changed with new one and can continue working for brue and jung bees during the season! I hope i explained it well.
@@bayrakov yes it's the bigger narrow one. I tried them all from the one with the varroa trapping frame to the little Chinese one made with toothpicks. In the end I made my own.. later a very similar one got in the market.. what Richard Noel uses. Bees can pass and the queen stays in.. the same principle. They all work.. it's more a preference and what is the best for your location. I just like the brood break sistem.. varroa isn't a problem anymore
Well, you lost a box of brood that should have been workers in the flow. The biggest difference is that we used formic after the flow in our dearth which is right now. The timing is all wrong. At least you got some answers l hope
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog yap, that's what I was thinking when I said that your season is all in a strate line.. and most of us here has a break in the middle. Different problems. Don't worry the survived queens will lay full polished combs
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog the restarting is interesting. It's at least 3 months here of yellow grass, no rain and up to 40c heat waves. It's much better to cage queens in time than to let them go broodless due to dryness. This bees are used to stop flying if the scouts bring bad news in the morning. With caging they too polish everything if you start feeding little but often. The released queens surprised me. They lay without stopping and those old bees do a wonderful job. The timing is very difficult. My fall flow is what I want and I have to convince those queens to lay September bees to collect as much as they can. The only way is to keep extracting capped honey frames (that's what the newbies don't know). That's the job. I lost the winter. Last year we still had honey to pull after new year. We can see yours. I wrote mine if you interested in the difference. Good luck with the new bees.
Aye, that's what I saw from your second video on this trial. Too steep a loss for the benefit given your historical production levels with just a dose of wood bleach vapor...
I have used one single pad of MAQS in the spring to clean up a bit. Formic Pro gave me more queen loss this year. Is there a concern of chemical reaction of the formic acid with the aluminum on foamie? I know it corrodes the chit out of metal frame rests and excluders. FWIW I hit with that one pad when they are still in a single box, but add a second box on at the same time. Then in 7-10 days check for eggs and shake them into single below excluder. Do this at beginning of early flow so no feed. Minimal dead brood/larvae, but a pause in laying for three or so days. I don’t understand your expense of this if you are shaking zeros and ones.
You know we’re getting a heat wave coming threw you heading to US it’s gonna be 36 degrees in your area this week your gonna fry then bees 😂your area is gonna feel like 45 degrees you may want to wait
I ask myself? With such a high mortality rate and a juggle with strengths, is formic ready for the bee keeping industry? Perhaps not the other way around.
Good decision! Formic is an old- fashioned way of treating hives anyway and with oxalic acid at our disposal not necessary! Would it be possible to spread out your hives in the winter shed (onnce they are brooodless) to either sprinkle treat them or to vapourize oxalic acid? That would bring your mite load down significantly! 7:29
A dribble would work. But physically not possible 3:53 with set up in winter. Vaporizing another good idea, but the risk of death to person applying said product even if you take your own air supply in. Too risky. Damn mites
