ORIGINAL FOOTAGE | Shocking 12th SS Panzer Division Massacre - Abbey Ardenne | Normandy WW2 

There are no winners in war. That much is true

If you don’t mind my asking, when and where did he serve? I’ve always wanted to speak to a relative of a Wehrmacht veteran. I’m a complete history nut and especially like WWII history.

@@caseyynelmss He was born august 1923 in Fussen. He was a member of the Hitler youth from 1937. From there was enthusiastically encouraged to join the Weapon SS, which he did in 1942. He saw action in Normandy, Caen. The Falaise pocket and the Ardennes offensive where his war ended. He was wounded in the leg arm and face and was taken prisoner. (How he met my grandmother). His English rose how he put it. He died in 2006. He only spoke of it toward the end of his life. Always lying about the scar on his face that fascinated me as a child. I have his decorations, iron cross 2nd class, wound badges etc and photographs of him with his comrades in the division at various points and locations. I asked him about the terrible crimes. He admitted there were many, but he did not agree or participate in such things. He admitted to being fully indoctrinated by the regime, a believer. However he pointed out there were thousands of troops and within those thousands there were groups of individuals that had little to no moral standards and would commit atrocities that disgusted many of the troops and officers alike. Saying Fritz Witt a much admired commander, was furious when he heard of it, demanding a full and immediate investigation from Kurt Meyer. He told me that time of his life was both the best and worst times of his life and war is a tragedy.

@@Dairy917 I just watched this video and saw your comments. Twenty six minutes prior. Any male born in 1923 in a nation involved in WWII would have had to serve if healthy. However, Being born in Germany, or Russia. Raised you odds of being wounded or killed.

@@Dairy917 Thank you very much, and I’m sorry he passed. Always think it’s amazing to hear history from someone who either lived it or heard it from someone who did.

What a fantastic comment! Thank you for sharing my friend

Oh my, what a comment. It has brought me to tears. I am so grateful to that wonderful woman of France who deserves a special acknowledgement from our Government.

Sadly, they'll probably be accused of having white privilege and they'll advocate for their genetic replacement by other types of invaders.

French guy here. I'm 56, so well aware of what happened here decades ago. I am teaching my kids ( 16 and 28 yo) regularly, on how our freedom 's price was very costly for the guys who crossed the Atlantic for liberating us. Plus: i was born and raised in Dieppe, and tehn, take them with me, every 19th of August to the Canadian Cemetery, to pay a tribute to your fallen ones. Merci. Votre sacrifice n'est pas oublié ici. Soyez-en surs.

@@MrSebfrench76 I love France 🇫🇷

Very true

One well talked about is Monte Cassino. But I do not think many people know what a war crime is. A war crime is basically a purposeful killing innocents for no other reasons. Monte Cassino was bombed into oblivion, killing a thousand plus innocents, because the allies believed that German soldiers were located there. THe allies were wrong, it was a mistake, but not a war crime. Compared to the industrial scale of german war crimes, there really isn't much to talk about on the Allied side, and this includes the Soviets, who did enact their revenge on Germany.

@@rb239rtr I do intend to visit Italy too.

@@rb239rtr I’m beginning to get it. When the Germans do it, it’s a war crime; when the Western Allies do it, it’s just a mistake and when the Soviet Allies do it, it’s (justified) revenge. So anyway, the first charge brought by the Canadian Military Court against Meyer in the Abbey Ardenne case states: “Committing A War Crime, in that he … , in violation of the laws and usages of war, incited and counselled troops under his command to deny quarter to Allied troops.” How does that fit with your stated definition of war crime?

@@JoeLukes Joe, go to the UN and study up on what a war crime is.

Meyer was tried in Canada

Thanks man. Really appreciate the feedback. So glad you enjoyed the video

In ww1 or 2 ?

WW2@@TheYeti308

WW1, well that's a bigger issue! WW2 there are Canuck Units that simply gloss over the prisoner taking stuff!

They were moving forward no facilities for taking prisoners so they shot them the Germans however took them prisoner snd then after a bit of torture killed them not always with a bullet

@@jasonsweet1868 Where is the evidence for torture ? Sound like war propaganda to me ...

I'm so glad you appreciate the video and my attempt to tell the story. Definitely not a nice one to research but I think it's a very important one. I really appreciate the feedback buddy

I’m sorry 😢 I’m not going 😅

Yes very true. The deaths of French civilians is a blight on the allied invasion in my opinion as in many cases it could have been avoided

The unfortunate reality still is & always has been, is that there are no rules or laws in total warfare, except ‘kill or be killed!’ But, if as an engaged combatant, your surrender has been accepted, then the military authority accepting you or other PoWs surrender, are hence charged & compelled to comply with international treaties requiring these military authorities to deal with any such PoWs, humanely & in accordance with the Geneva Conventions on the rights, obligations, entitlements & treatments of PoW to & by all parties involved, then & thereafter, & until the formal end of existing hostilities between all warring parties concerned has been agreed & established!

I was astonished when seated in a cafe in Caen the day after 9/11 to hear an inhabitant of Caen go nuts about what the Allies did to Caen during the war and applauding the attack on the twin towers. As a visitor to France I did not approach the lady to ask about her patent anger all those years later

I’ve never read an account referring to any of what you live said. If you can provide the sources I’ll gladly read them as I’m always looking to learn more about this subject, but I’m afraid I haven’t seen accounts on this before

@user-ke8be8mf9t “Lies”? Here are direct quotes from two of Meyer’s trial judges, both high ranking Canadian army officers, which are clear admissions that killing German prisoners was common: “I don’t believe Meyer pulled the trigger on his captives or gave orders to execute any of them. But I’m sure he knew what happened. SS discipline was such that he couldn’t help but know. But does that make him guilty of murder any more than I’m guilty for knowing about the German prisoners my troops killed?” (Major-General Foster) and “We all knew that our troops at various times were guilty of similar conduct. Whenever it happened we looked the other way. There was an intensity of relationship and affection for those among us who did the actual fighting. The sort of relationship that was unknown in peacetime … But the legal restraints under which we were placed allowed for no other verdict than guilty.” (Lieut.-Col. H.P. Bell-Irving)

@@JoeLukes Thank you !!! Finally the historical quotes ! My coments were all deleted ... I wonder by whom ???

Listen, I appreciate your efforts to educate the ignorant typical person these days. It is OBVIOUS that Germany( Nazi AND otherwise) is being deliberately slandered and falsely portrayed, especially in regards to any reports or statements concerning the Second World War and Adolf Hitler. After much study, the only possibility that qualifies universally to the variables is a concerted, disciplined, and indefinite effort by Jewish collective advancement groups/societies through many mediums including the news media, television, books, education systems, and cinema to defame, punish, delegitimize, and damage their economy. This is a pattern that has been in effect since 1933. Support was being sought and solicited before this, due to the racial ideas of a few Germans(scholarly and noteworthy) mostly in the late 1800s, It is important to admit that some of the ideas Hitler allowed to influence policy towards the Jewish people, but this was not prior to the initial aggression and attack of those Jewish collectives in 1933. Look up the headlines for the INITIAL antagonism between Nazi Germany and the Jewish RACE(ethnic).. The headlines read, THE JEWISH PEOPLE DECLARE WAR ON GERMANY. It was an internationally organized and administered economical boycott of any and all German produced goods, and they found international support here in the USA, which is pretty typical, and other countries and the economy was damaged as a result. I hate to confuse anyone that is just a clueless drone, but the actions taken by Hitler(Nazi Germany), including the acts of the Gestapo, were RETALIATORY. They let Jewish people come there and live, open businesses, influence culture, etc and while still using Germany(as it provided better circumstances than the Jews can do for themselves), they were trying to destroy the economy and take money, opportunity, and credibility away from Germany that it earned. The dirty secret and truth is that the Jews started it because they did not appreciate the pro-Aryan/anti-Jewish racial propaganda espoused and supported by certain political and media figures. Racist propaganda is neither illegal nor an act of war. It is the expression and/or attempt to advance an idea. Advancing an idea about the Jewish people was actually the stated main purpose for the foundation of the Jewish groups that started the economic boycott and subsequent blockades and sanctions imposed on Germany. Remember when the war started(hint:it was AFTER 1933) then consider the date that Jews declared war on Germany and its people(1933)Make sure to consider the time frames for the official(government approved/ordered) policing and boycotts of Jews by the Nazj party and those supporters of it.

​@JoeLukes; @stephankurz892 You said there was an 'official' Canadian Army order to kill prisoners. That is simply not true. You quoted Lt. Col. H.P. Bell-Irving as saying he knew Canadian troops were guilty of similar conduct, but that is not an admission of 'official' Canadian Army policy. It was never 'official' Canadian Army policy to murder prisoners after capture. However it WAS official policy of the Waffen SS to murder prisoners, including captured soldiers and civilians. (Google: "SANITIZATION OF WAFFEN SS WW2 CRIMES: A DISSERVICE TO THE MEMORY OF THOSE CANADIAN SOLDIERS WHO WERE VICTIMIZED" by David Pugliese, published 23 Nov. 2022 in esprit de corps magazine and available online).

Absolutely ,my first time seeing one of your videos and I really appreciated the lack of loud unnecessary music. Thankyou for a moving and informative film. Now subscribed.

I’ve never read about that. Can you provide a link please? Sounds terrible

@@thehistoryexplorer I provided you with references for the ‘inns of court’ incident over two weeks ago under the comment by stephankurz892. It’s also mentioned in ‘Grenadiers’, which you claim to have read and which you list as a reference for this video.

Napoleon lost and he wrote a history , which would seem to disproves both his and your point .

@@iroscoe , even losers can write their history too it seems. I am sure that such terrible events happened a lot at the end of the war in all sides.

There is no hard evidence of general taylor giving this order. This would have been an illegal order, either way. No subordinate officer would be obligated to follow this order. Even if it was true, the rumor stated he hinted at not taken prisoners, there was nothing explicit in what he said. Orders have to be explicit.

What about the german oiaw thatvwere jilled by the english atvdubkirj?

Thank you buddy. I really wanted to cover their amazing stories. I've got one more Canadian video coming up on the Worthington Force

​@@thehistoryexplorerlooking forward 2 it, my grandfather was with C squadron Fort Garry Horse, its kinda confusing 2 me to try to read about all thier movements on the maps and whatnot, again great vids man👍

as a American here the nazi ss murdered our boys at the battle of the bulge in winter 1944

@@stephenlewis2975And the millions we Americans have killed in the Middle East… for what? War is horrible.

@stephenlewis2975 The Americans did the same to German prisoners at Chenogne, also in the Bulge. The US 11th Armored Division troops massacred 80 German prisoners in cold blood. Very similar to the Malmedy massacre. Chenogne was covered up and nobody was punished for it. Even Patton knew about it and helped to cover it up.

@@lyndoncmp5751 There you go, an example that the Allies were not without those who carried out executions to captured Wehrmacht. In WW1 the Canadians were so feared by the Germans that they tried to avoid having to face them in battle because of the reputation that we (Canadians) had done some terrible things that I won’t mention here. RU-vid has some videos that describe the brutality of some Canadian units in night raids where unsuspecting Germans were met with their extreme wrath. Yes, Canadians are polite, courteous people, but when they are called upon in military actions, something changes….

@@Mrkaycee7 Yes I heard that before particularly the WW1 part. In fact I've heard it used as a reason/excuse for SS reprisals on them in Normandy. 25 years is a long time to get your own back though, so not quite sure I believe that. Cheers.

Thanks for sharing

True if you are on any mission ,you can't be saddled down with prisoners.

I was waiting for the ‘what about’ trolls to come along 👍 the sources I used are as follows: Sources: [Ardenne Abbey massacre - Wikipedia] [Abbaye d’Ardenne - Veterans Affairs Canada] [12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend - Wikipedia] [(PDF) Kurt Meyer on Trial: A Documentary Record] [D-Day veteran’s harrowing tale of advancing deep behind Nazi lines - RU-vid] [WarHistoryOnline - The Ardenne Abbey Massacre] [The 1942 Dieppe Raid - Veterans Affairs Canada] [WarMuseum.ca - A Chronology of Canadian Military History - Canada at D-Day, 1944] [Grenadiers: The Story of Waffen SS General Kurt “Panzer” Meyer] [The 12th SS by Hubert Meyer] [World War II: 12th SS Hitlerjugend Panzer Division Fought in Normandy] [Guerres et violences à l’abbaye d’Ardenne]

So I,m apparently a troll. Was there any part of my statement that was incorrect or misleading. Or are you just annoyed that someone had a different opinion than yourself.

@@frankvandergoes298 you are not the person who was trolling Frank. Have a brilliant week and very happy Christmas

@@thehistoryexplorer He is a troll. He has come after me. I told him is spouting myths and nonsense but just keeps doing it. He's clearly a fan of the 12th SS.

@@OTDMilitaryHistory Yes we will absolutely question you when you sprout nonsense, tell the whole story not just one sided narrow minded jargon to fanboys.

As the cold war was starting up, Meyer was released early to become a consultant to the Canadian Army, as he had first hand experience with Soviet tank tactics

Thank you buddy. Really appreciate it

Yep, because both sides embellish the stories. Like how the hell would anyone know they shook hands before being shot? Did one escape and tell the tale? I would like to hear that story as well. The victor will always be the first to make "History", its why most of the books written before the 90's or even now (As we have more documents and such today) were very hard to prove etc. and some of the 'Witnesses" like to tell white lies, all sides did this. If you think otherwise your pretty naive.

WHAT DO YOU CLASSIFY AS "THE USUAL SUSPECTS" ??? I BET GETTING YOUR FACTS RIGHT IS INCLUDED IN THESE "SUSPECTS" !!!

@@jeffsmith3173 the usual suspects can be quickly identified when you see the other channels they subscribe to and their previous comments which in some cases have been removed by RU-vid as violating community guidelines. Those usual suspects

Thank you so much mate. Really appreciate the positive feedback

The PPCLI flash sparked my curiosity as well, as they indeed famously fought in Italy. I recognized the other flashes were definitely Royal Winnipeg Rifles immediately, as I inherited some from my uncle, who was at Nomandy. As the Italian campaign was already well underway, could the PPCLI man have been "seconded" to 3rd Div to share battlefield experience ? In any case, a good observation !

Yes, good observation, but doesn’t that look like a 3rd Canadian Infantry Division patch below the PPCLI? It was a light blue as opposed to the 1st’s red patch. I’m inclined to agree with the other commenter that the soldier has been “seconded” to the 3rd in some capacity. Also, the terrain and foliage in the background doesn’t look too Italian, but that point would be hard to prove, admittedly. I looked at the original German newsreel where the footage comes from. To me those scenes all looks like it is from Normandy, but, as we know, the newsreel creators on both sides were want to take extensive liberties to make their point.

All the POWs SCENES are from Die Deutsche Wochenschau 719 which fist played 16/6/44 and was the first German footage from Normandy. If you watch the original there are several views of NNSH POWs. It is Normandy.

Thank you so much. That comment means the world to me

I see what you're saying, but this video is about the Abbey Ardenne incident.

All of the non-cadre (easter volunteers) defending the normally beaches taken prisoner were forced onto Murmansk bound ships where they were executed upon arrival. That is why there are so few memoirs from the axis defenders in the Stationary units except for the ethnic German Cadre (experienced soldiers w/ heald wounds that limited their mobility)

I had an Uncle that shot SS every sunset at Dachau on orders none other then General Eisenhower. Each surrendering German military personal were ordered to strip off their tunics and under shirts. With raised arms Regular Army went in one direction ( safe treatment) those with SS lighting bolts that were tattooed under their arms by the arm pit were put into execution line. Seems the SS tattooed every man so they could be identified if they deserted to by shot in front of their SS peers. The US troops were ordered to feed them a class A hot field meal. At sunset they were marched to the bottom of a low hill and lined up in a straight line in front of a Sherman tank with a .30 caliber machine gun and a brand new full belt of ammo. A US Corporal would walk down the line and offer a last cigarette to each man and provided a light. As the last man tossed his cigarette the highest ranking SS men about to be executed would click his heels an Salute a Heil Hitler. To the man every SS man to be executed responded in kind. My Uncle was a tank Sargent and he was the one on the Browning .30 caliber machine gun. He had been the Tank platoon commander of 4 tanks. They were the first to pull up and liberate Dachau. He was ordered to guard the concentration camp prisoners to prevent the Germans from returning to finish the job. He absolutely hated every SS man he saw. He stated Eisenhower ordered this be done, because the US knew it would have to help setup a form of Government in Germany at the end of the war. Eisenhower quote” did not want any fanatical SS to be in any power of authority in the new German government” his solution was executing these men. I care very much about him as a man, but feel each one of them should have been tried. At that point of the war he was so filled with hate of what he saw, he was easily ordered to do this. No excuses, but he said if anyone was going to be tried for shooting prisoners it would be him. That’s why he did it daily. He did not allow anyone else to do it it maliciously treat the SS prisoners. He said it did bother him to treat them humanly , but was also order to do so. Seriously he hated what he saw at Dachau. I know I will get vile responses , but facts are facts. One last thing. Eisenhower ordered SS everyone of them to be executed thru out Germany. No where do you read about this that I know of.

@@MikeJMarine It is known (or should be) that US troops murdered German POWs at Dachau. Naturally the usual excuses are given and no one was ever held accountable. However, the part of your story about the Waffen-SS tattoos is not factual. These tattoos were actually the individual’s blood group, the purpose of which should be obvious in combat conditions. Regular Wehrmacht soldiers had their blood groups stamped on their ID tags.

@@daedra5651 The murdered soldiers referred to were not camp guards, but just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time; nor was Dachau an extermination camp, as you seem to believe.

It's hard to take Canada seriously after the WHITE HELMETS and SS HUNKA episodes of pure nazzee celebration....

His soldiers gave evidence to say they were ordered not to take prisoners. That’s pretty damning

@@thehistoryexplorer Damning? So why did the judges not believe them? Seems like you’re willing to accept the court’s decisions only when they fit your preferred narrative.

The abbey was Meyer's HQ at the time of the killings. If he wasn't aware than he was a terrible commander with no control over his troops.

@@OTDMilitaryHistory Ok, we already knew it was Meyer’s HQ and that the court ruled that he was aware. But since you addressed your comment to me specifically, did I say anything that you disagree with?

@JoeLukes If there are so many problems with this video, and you are so determined to point out all of the inaccuracies, why don't you create a video that is so correct that no one can dispute anything you say in the video?

Perhaps, but this is about Abbey Ardennes

Glad you like them! I think I should do more stuff using my military experience and training rather than just historical accounts

What do you mean by that?

This one is pretty black and white.

@@OTDMilitaryHistory is not really black and white if you know the truth the victors write the history

@@shanetharle4030 That's not true at all. Especially in this case. The former SS never stopped writing and trying to justify their horrible actions.

@@OTDMilitaryHistory on the first day of D-day there was very few Germans captured live, the allies were not choirboy, even in the brand of Brothers ,dick Winters in he book ,he said that they executed 12 German soldier ,the reason why ,he said that there wasn't anyone to take care of these soldiers ,and he couldn't spare any person to send them back to the POW Stockade, so that is a war crime , why wasn't dick Winters sent to prison,

War is hell.

Quoted right sir! @@thehistoryexplorer

Do you have any sources for the allies doing similar to this? I haven’t come across any examples that can be proven without doubt (not saying it didn’t happen of course)

@@thehistoryexplorer Do actual confessions count?

@@JoeLukes I’m not the arbitrator of wether an account is considered as definitive truth but I’d be really interested to read them. I’m not saying these things did not happen, just that I haven’t read accounts and I would like to 👍

@@thehistoryexplorer Then I would respectfully suggest you read ‘Meeting of Generals’ by Tony Foster. He is the son of the lead judge in Meyer’s trial, Major-General Harry Foster.

@@JoeLukes thanks Joe. I will seek it out

Allegedly. Other than personal testimony there is not much evidence that I can see. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, just that all everyone refers to is Dresden etc

There are isolated instances where units may have done similar things, but to interrogate, then systematically murder 20 POWs is another thing. This also was not their first and only time

You are 100% right. There is no way of quantifying, or comparing, other instances when they’ve never been investigated; and there’s no such thing as one murder being worse than another.

Yes in many ways I agree, but you can’t really get away from ‘the victor’ and ‘the loser’. I try to treat all soldiers the same

156 Canadian POWs we’re murdered while in captivity by the Germans. Yes I believe the soldiers who had surrendered and were then killed on Authie are included in this total. The account I read said there were two Canadians who were run over by German tanks, but over 20 in total were killed in Authie. Another 20 at the Abbey Ardenne

Exactly! Finally a comment speaking sense. So many others have said ‘yes he did this but why haven’t you mentioned what the allies did?’

Can you tell me where the Italians or Hungarians were in Normandy? This is a story about the Abbey Ardenne massacre. If you want to support murderous fanatics just say so buddy 🤷‍♂️

@@thehistoryexplorer ..did i hurt your feelings ???Awww..my bad..

@@thehistoryexplorer ..SS killed allied soldiers..after that allied soldier killed everyone who was SS!The same shit..

Welcome aboard! Thanks for the feedback and I hope you enjoy the channel

Thank you very much for your feedback

Yes, whether he knew of them or not is irrelevant...Command responsibility.

Can we have references please . Rots was a tough fight.

I haven’t seen that but I’m not saying it isn’t true just because I haven’t read about it

@@thehistoryexplorer The CBC documentary Narrated & Produced by Terrence McKenna titled The Valour & The Horror talks about it. Apparently the documentary caused a deal of Controversy at the time it was released. I believe it was done in the early 90'S.

Ok

What did the SS units give to their victims?

@@thehistoryexplorer Oh i see!What i wrote not important because they were german PoWs,right?Because your answer implicates that that was a good thing and the the suffering was not that much!Your remarks trying to implcate that because the SS Units did murder the canadian soldiers its not important what the US did to non combatant soldiers and other german PoWs!That sound very hypocritical!Dont you think??And Warcrime is warcrime,is it murder or treating PoW inhuman!But hey!With this comment you made yourself untrustworthy about your so called documentaries!And shows where you stand!FO🤮And giving yourself a heart to your comment makes it more pathetic!

@@williwass6837 You are right. This is not a balanced documentary, nor is it well-researched as I have tried to point out in some of my comments. The result is that it does more to incite, rather than to inform. Eighty years after the fact we should be able to review incidents like this within the proper overall historical context, not in isolation, and without vilifying one side while continuing to pretend the other side was completely innocent because its crimes were never investigated or prosecuted.

the post- May 1945 prisoner camps were closed in September 1945, with most prisoners sent home. Only a few were held for war crimes. What else was happening in 1945? Oh yes, millions of refugees, road and rail infrastructure destroyed thoughout europe, starving people in France, Holland, Germany. Farmers displaced by fighting, no food reserves. It was the Allied armies that fed western europe for a year or two, until the countries could get back on their feet.

@@rb239rtr Yeah,the samaritans!And by the way,dont say "The Allies"Say the "WESTERN ALLIES",because russia did shit!And if you dont get it ,we talk about warcrimes!Which the Rheinwiesen were!We are not talking about average things that happen!

So you don’t think this happened?

@@thehistoryexplorer wow

​@@thehistoryexplorerI think they mean both sides committed some evil deeds and we're just seeing the ones that the Germans did" either way it's a time that should not be forgotten and we need to educate people to assure it doesn't happen again 👍

Do you think it’s acceptable to murder prisoners of war?

Ok, but bullies are insecure, and Hitler and the rest were the same. In Downfall, just before he left the Bunker with Magda Goebbels to blow their brains out, he said to an adjutant, " You elected us." What a coward, all cowards in the end, only maybe Speer had remorse.

Thank you for the kind feedback 👍

This video isn’t about alleged war crimes by the allies, it is about the specific incident which occurred at Abbey Ardenne. I can’t help that you are a Nazi apologist

@@thehistoryexplorer It’s a bit disingenuous to call the commenter a “Nazi apologist” for simply pointing out similar Allied crimes.

@@JoeLukes but this video has nothing to do with allied war crimes. It is a video to highlight the actions at Abbey Ardenne. To say ‘yeh but what about…’ is nothing more than an attempt to try and justify the actions of the SS

@@thehistoryexplorer You may want to look at this in isolation, but your introduction specifically claims the 12th SS was in a class by itself in terms committing war crimes, as evidenced by the crime it committed at the Abbey. So why is not it fair for people to point out that the Allies committed similar crimes, which 80 years later you can still call “alleged” because they were covered up rather than prosecuted? How does doing this in itself make them Nazi apologists? What exactly does this commenter say that justifies your accusation that he/she is justifying the actions of the SS at the Abbey?

@@JoeLukes When it came to war crimes, no one, not even the Japanese came close to what the Germans accomplished in the war crime field. THe very worst that can be said about the Allied troops in France is that they commited an atrocity here or there, none to the extent of the Germans.

Thank you very much

As I’ve said many times in these comments- I’m not saying one side adhered to the laws of war and the other did not. This video is purely about the Abbey Ardenne massacre

If you get to Normandy it’s definitely somewhere to visit

Yes it must have been terrible towards the end of the war and into the 50s

Possibly

Well I can't speak for soldiers in Normandy, but when I was in the British Army it was made very clear what constituted 'illegal' action against enemy soldiers and the implications you might face if you didn't follow military law. A very pertinent point (given this video's subject) was 'if you take a prisoner, it is your responsibility to see they are not mistreated and are escorted safely to the rear as POWs'. @@thehistoryexplorer

@@faeembrugh exactly. Well said

I think a civilisation is judged by the way it treats its helpless. Germany made a great deal of its 'civilisation' and 'culture'. Yes, all armies have potential to commit war crimes, but the Germans in general and SS in particular were up to their necks in it. Of course, officers set the tone. Mohnke seems to have been the worst in 12th SS. should bear in mind the 12 SS was around 17000 strong so clearly not everyone was a murderer.

Where is this account of the German POWs being used to clear minefields published. The human shield is a complete myth and been thoroughly debunked. You are literally spouting SS propaganda with that one.

The Canadians learnt from the Germans. And the German "score in atrocities probably outdid the Western allies by 99 to 1. /

@@zen4men "The Canadians learnt from the Germans." ive seen bad defenses of atrocities but this isnt even trying.

@@DD-qw4fz Clearly you are unaware of the the difference between a defence, and having understanding. Question. Is there any record of these Canadian troops killing prisoners prior to the discovery that SS troops were killing Canadian PoWs? I think the answer to that is NO, but maybe you know better? Please advise! /

@@zen4men C. Vokes said to the Canadian High Commissioner in London when discussing Meyrs death sentence, "I told them of Sögel and Friesoythe and of the prisoners and civilians that my troops had killed in Italy and Northwest Europe". Vokes was in Command in Italy before coming to Normandy... He commuted Meyers sentence saying, "There isn't a general or colonel on the Allied side that I know of who hasn't said, 'Well, this time we don't want any prisoners'" "out of horses mouths" so to speak The truth is we have a very romantic view of the "greatest generation" and we wont be ale to look at ww2 without emotions and propaganda for at least 50 years minimum.

Sure. That is. It what this video is about though. This is about the events at Abbey Ardenne. Do you have any evidence of allies killing prisoners?

Terrifying!

My Lai. What an atrocity

Only one soldier was convicted over the My Lai massacre and all he served was 3.5 years of home detention.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF COMMUNISTIAN JOURNALISTS , AGENTS OF THE NORTH VIETNAMESE & CHINA !!! THEY NEVER TOLD ANYONE THAT THE 'STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES' OF THE N.V.A. & 'VIET CONG' WAS TO GO INTO A VILLAGE & START MURDERING PEOPLE, BASH A FEW WITH RIFLE BUTTS & THEN EVERYONE IS TERRORISED INTO SUBJECTION !!! THEN THEY DRAGGED AWAY THOSE WHO WERE FIT FOR MILITARY & LABOUR SLAVERY TO BE SENT INTO BATTLE TO CONQUER MORE OF SOMEBODY ELSE'S TERRITORY !!! THEY DID THIS IN THE 'RUSSIAN REVOLUTION', CHINA, NORTH KOREA & INDO- CHINA IN THE LATE 40's & 50's WHICH WAS DIVIDED INTO FOUR COUNTRIES, NORTH VIETNAM, SOUTH VIETNAM, CAMBODIA & LAOS & THEY DID IT IN THOSE COUNTRIES & AFRICA & THE MIDDLE EAST & CENTRAL & SOUTH AMERICA !!! THEY ARE COMMUNISTS (MARXISTS/ LENINISTS) !!! 'STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE' S.O.P.'s. THIS IS WHY THERE ARE FASCISTS WHICH IS WHAT THE COMMUNISTS CALL ANYONE WHO OPPOSES THEM, OR NAZIES !!!

"Winners are never asked if they told the truth" - AH

It must have been terrifying, just horrible

Thank you so much buddy. I know exactly what you mean, equally the 12th SS had suffered heavy losses from air attacks themselves and claimed they were also retaliating for allied bombing of Germany. You can never justify their actions though. I really appreciate your comment 👍

Unit history records no such heavy losses during the march to Normandy. They lost no armoured vehicles, no heavy equipment, artillery guns flak guns etc. Yes they did loose some trucks and light personnel losses. Can you please elaborate on these heavy losses??? Unit history does mention and there are photos of a French civilian bus that was strafed caught fire and the passengers burnt to death. Unfortunate casualties of war which no doubt they didn't want.

@@thehistoryexplorer Most of these kids grew up with families and neighbors being killed and neighborhoods being reduced to rubble by allied bombing. That experience would actually be a rather natural and obvious motivator for anyone regardless of nationality, so why would you question it? Two wrongs don't make a right, so I agree it doesn’t justify what they did, but this particular context shouldn't be ignored or minimized.

Out of all the things covered in this video…

The Canadians were volunteers. They went there to stop a tyrant

Yup, can you image some 20 year old from Summerside PEI caught up in the middle of this and thinking about lobster dinners at his church in August. Unreal and so unnecessary. War is H☆ LL .......

@@thehistoryexplorer I’ve had the privilege of knowing many Canadian veterans - work colleagues, extended family and acquaintances. Not one ever claimed that they enlisted to “stop a tyrant”, at least not to me. But they generally believed what the recruiters and the media told them. Despite that, adventure, lack of job opportunities, the promise of a free university education, or to support “the old country” (Britain) were the main motivators, I was told.

Thank you very much. Although the Abbey is called Abbey Ardennes it actually doesn’t have anything to do with the Ardennes offensive which occurred in Belgium and across the German border. I’m so glad you enjoyed the video 👍

In what way?

What part of the story have I missed?

@@thehistoryexplorer Kurt Meyer in his MEMORIES said that he had written proof that all those men killed. had orders from high command that " take no prisoners" to fasten up the INVASION. one of the Judges of that JUSTICE, was the General who gave the order to those men.

@@nestorruiz8857 The author of this video isn’t interested in facts that don’t fit the story as he wants to tell it. Please see my comment to him about 13 days ago, which he hasn’t bothered to acknowledge.

You have a connection to this story then 👍

The two aren’t even closely related. Germany had signed up to the Geneva Convention which protects the rights of prisoners of war. It is therefore illegal to withhold water, food, medical treatment etc. it is also obviously illegal to kill them or harm them. As for bombing cities, that would require a very involved reply that I can’t do justice in a YT comment. I have taught law of armed conflict and the distinction comes down to necessity, proportionality, and humanity. It is legally justifiable to destroy, degrade or neutralise military targets for the purpose of military necessity - even if it does kill or injure non combatants. The scale we are talking about with the German cities is on another level all together. I don’t think these actions would be condoned today. It’s a very complication subject and I’m not sure there is a right answer

@@thehistoryexplorer An eloquent and generous reply to what comes across as a flippant, perhaps trollish comment. I like your style!

Was Nagasaki and Hiroshima a "Military Target"?

@@AR-ly7yt why don’t you tell me if you think the US was correct in using ‘the bomb’

Yes it was. Try some research mouthpiece!@@AR-ly7yt

Well said my friend

During the Dieppe raid?! Like what?

Drowned POWs with their hands tied@@thehistoryexplorer

@@AM-cw1kpnever read examples of that. Care to share a source? All I’ve read is the Canadians were desperately fighting for their life trying to escape the beaches

I’ve never understood that! So weird isn’t it?

So it's best to forget they existed? That the allies ultimately defeated them? We didn't loose thousands of men fighting nice people.

Where does reenactment ends and really starts

What kind of insanity does a general population generate

War is war. You clearly have no idea what a real war is since the US has pussyfooted for the last 70 years of sending our youth to die for no reason. There are countless tales of humanity to prisoners by German soldiers. A German fighter pilot escorted a crippled B17 to safety - letting them live. There are also many documented cases of war crimes against all allied nations. Just a couple of examples: The Canadian army unit "The Loyal Edmonton Regiment" murdered German prisoners of war during the invasion of Sicily. Twenty-one German prisoners were taken placed against the wall, and shot without trial on the orders of the French Capitaine Marcel Dingeon. Let me remind you of US Army Lt William Calley in Viet Nam.

There are rules in war - they’re called the Laws of Armed Conflict and you can be prosecuted and tried for breaking them!

@@thehistoryexplorer To talk about the Laws of Armed Conflict in the context of this war is hardly meaningful since they were only applied to the losing side, as many commenters have rightly pointed out. In fact the Russians, who arguably contributed the most to the Allied victory, didn’t even bother to sign on in the first place.

You are correct, he was involved in incidents around Dunkirk early on in the war. Panzer Meyer was his nickname - certainly not a rank. He was actually an astute tactical commander even if he was a murderous SOB

​@@thehistoryexplorerMeyer was also involved in some questionable behavior in Russia.

What's the difference? Both sides committed atrocities..the Americans were just allowed to get away with it..I know..my Grandfather was in the german army in Normandy.

@@kurtjammer9568 You are correct, the winners decide who the war criminals are .

The only criminals in this shit war were the gentlemen Churchill and Roosevelt.. And their buddy Stalin.... Greetings from Germany.

Terrible isn’t it

Thank you buddy. Really appreciate the feedback. Sadly from having done my research I found a few academics who believe the allied commanders didn’t seek the death sentence incase they were later tried for allied soldiers doing the same things to German POWs! War is fell

@@thehistoryexplorer yes evil takes no side

@@thehistoryexplorer As I pointed out in my comment yesterday two of the trial judges, Major-General Foster and Lieut.-Col. H.P. Bell-Irving (both field commanders), expressed clear concerns about this. So it wasn’t just something that “a few academics” believed.

I completely agree. It’s a strange place to visit knowing what had happened, it doesn’t feel particularly restful or welcoming

I will assume you know, as a Canadian Army veteran, that Lieut.-Col. Bruce Macdonald was the chief prosecutor at Meyer’s trial. I will also assume we can agree that 1941 came before 1944. So here is a direct quote from Lieut.-Col. Macdonald: “In 1941, I attended a meeting called by Maj.-Gen. Victor Odlum of all 2nd Division officers at Brighton. He stated categorically that ‘the Canadians will take no prisoners’. Everyone accepted it. What did we know? We assumed those were the rules. We were never told anything else. Later, at Battle School, I taught everyone to go in with guns blazing. If something was booby-trapped then you pushed a German at it to try it out. Prisoners were never mentioned … Two officers of the Essex Scottish served under Major-General Vokes in Italy and had read Vokes’s bulletin stating: ‘We will take no prisoners”. Once the senior British commander, General Sir Oliver Leese, got wind of the affair he ordered all bulletins and evidence of them destroyed.” You say “after this happened”? And we’re not just talking about SS POWs.

Very true

I don’t believe I said the Canadians had heavy armour? I say the Stuart (honey) tank was no march for German heavy armour but I think that’s the only use of the term

@@thehistoryexplorer You did actually, at timestamp 7:50 - 7:56 you said they had "Lots of heavy armor" when referring to the Canadian "Order of battle". Also why did you like your own comment aha?

@@JannyBesmircher ah I see what you mean . That is in reference to the large amount of heavy artillery assigned to the division. I always like the comments. Every single one

@@thehistoryexplorer Well you said "lots of artillery, lots of Heavy armor" you made the distinction so it wasn't just a general reference to artillery lol. It's not a good sign that you can't admit mistakes especially for a History channel. The proper response would have been something along the lines of "Whoops I must have misspoke" instead you double down 🤣.

@@JannyBesmircher I don’t give oxygen to trolls. What I will do is clarify a point I made in this video while I was stood on a roadside in Normandy for your benefit. The Canadians were resourced to distrupt and defeat the inevitable German counter attacks that were expected on D+1. They were tasked to establish fortress positions and therefore they had been allocated masses of artillery, anti tank weapon systems and armour. I’m so sorry you were offended by me saying ‘heavy armour’. What I meant was they were heavily resourced with lots of armour and artillery. Have a brilliant weekend

You cannot justify a war crime. End of chat. If the Allies had also conducted similar events it does not justify the acts that followed.

@@thehistoryexplorer I unequivocally agree with your first sentence. But I’m curious why you still continue to doubt that the Allies conducted similar events?