Originality and Inspiration in Fantasy, with A.P. Canavan 

A.P.’s ability to laugh at himself is admirable

Thank you very much for this discussion Philip. It was a lot of fun. Merry-Dol. Revenge will be had. 😂😂

As a trained musician I feel very similarly about ‘originality’ in music. I personally find it brilliant when a band or artist wears their influences on their sleeve but puts their on stamp on it. For me it’s a beautiful thing when you hear music that you think has been seen to it’s conclusion and then somebody brings something you’d never have thought could be integrated into it.

I always knew AP was Tom Bomabdil in disguise!!! Love watching and listening to two brilliant fellas exploring fascinating topics, and educating us along the way! Exceptionally done, as always!

Thank you both for sharing this fantastic discussion with us!! I love that your videos always challenge me to think about topics that I would personally never spend too much time pondering. And the fact that you guys are just a joy to watch is a very welcome bonus, of course ;) Great video!!

Nefarious elf treatment aside, fantastic discussion and thumbnail! I guess I picked the right day to post a video on this topic. I’m not sure if this relates to capitalism or not, but I think the way we teach history dictates ownership and originality to specific writers or artists as defining genres. So many wonderful works might go unnoticed for not breaking the status quo or being “original” enough. It’s a shame if that drive towards originality overshadows the heart of the craft. Thank you both!

You guys have helped me significantly in helping me to take fantasy and fiction in general and analyze it in a different light. I really appreciate you guys uploading your discussions because it has greatly enriched my reading experience overall!

I dig A.P.'s hair it looks great!

43 minutes of entertaining chat and i always learn a thing or two, thank you Philip and AP.

The Sword of Shannara and Lord Foul’s bane were among the first fantasies I read in the early 80s after I got through the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. I think for my part I recognized the similarities between ‘Sword’ and ‘Rings’ but I still enjoyed it. However, my favorite Shannara book was the sequel, The Elfstones of Shannara. As far as the Thomas Covenant novels are concerned I didn’t really see too many parallels when I was in my teens (other than Lord Foul = Sauron, and that Ravers = Ringwraiths) but I absolutely fell in love with the story, and the writing. Pretty amazing that I was able to get into that book, considering the protagonist was unlikeable in that first trilogy. To this day I buy anything with the words ‘Stephen R Donaldson’ on the cover.

Enjoyed listening to this very interesting discussion. The thumbnail - 😄 Really nice point about Shannara vs Thomas Covenant. I've read Eye of The World was also made deliberately Tolkienesque by Robert Jordan before he got sales and hence confidence from his publisher to take WoT in the direction he wanted. Perhaps a special shoutout to authors like Ursula Le Guin, Patricia McKillip (though Riddle Master is her tribute to LOTR), Jack Vance, and many others who kind of did their own thing throughout. Most are not so well known now (except Le Guin) compared to say WoT but I hope some of their works will find more readers again. Yes Michael Moorcock is really anti-Tolkien (and indeed the Elric book I read was completely different). China Mieville has toned down his stance on Tolkien a lot I think, stating he has his issues with the works but also acknowledging his massive influence on the genre. A side comment: I've been reading some of Mieville's works recently and it really is completely it's own thing - 'New Weird' is truly a good classification for it. Interestingly I've seen the aesthetic of Josiah Bancroft's Books of Babel compared to Mieville's in some reddit posts. While I'm not sure I fully agree - Bancroft is more 'traditional' (compared to Mieville!) - they do have similarities in terms of 'out there' ideas, stylised prose and works with no real connection to epic fantasy.

Thank you, for this great discussion about a topic that interests me a lot as well! Not surprised Philip about the evidence your researcher found. Especially that audio file. Ultimate proof that A. P. is definitely Irish because you can't bring them anywhere without them starting to sing. Right, back to thriving for some originality. Or maybe I'll just settle for some homage.😁

Best thumbnail ever! Looking forward to catching up on the video but just had to say that before I forget ….

The last fiction writing course I took was pretty focused on this idea of collaboration between authors and authors with the works they’ve been exposed to. Really interesting to think about. I’ve been pretty conscious of influence now as I'm writing my fairy tale novel. I’m embracing the motifs of gold mining dwarfs and hoarding dragons and inverting the Cinderella tale-type because it fits the story I’m trying to tell and the themes I want to communicate. Great video!

Great discussion, about which I have way too much to say. 1. Pratchett said Tolkien was to fantasy lit like Mt Fuji was to Japanese art: either present explicitly, present by its absence/rejection, or perhaps the artist was just standing on the mountain. 2. Interesting, I think, is that Tolkien didn’t consider novelty a virtue. He was much more keen to view his work as rooted in and in convo with past forms and authors. 3. Sanderson talks a lot about how preference for familiar/strange stories varies a great deal. Sword of Shannara may be derivative, but it sold millions, and inspired admirers as lofty as Gene Wolfe, who said simply that if it was an imitation, then we needed more of them that were as good. 4. A fascinating newer trend is “real” authors with proud fanfic roots, like Tamsyn Muir. The Locked Tomb books feel wildly original, and she’s got to Hugo nominations to show for it; but she’s also clearly speaking in fan fiction tropes. (She puts a coffee shop AU hallucination of her own work in her own work.) 5. Ultimately I think readers mostly just want authors to be honest and execute on their vision. Dresden Files is a great example, I think, as each individual element is almost transparently derivative, it’s soap-opera thriller-plotted with visible seams: and Butcher talks openly about how all of this is on purpose, and no one minds at all because he just does it really well.

Great video Phillip! Very interesting discussion. There seem to be at least a couple of paradoxes when it comes to our wanting and thinking about originality haha. Have a good day!

Wonderful and fun discussion, thank you very much for this video to both of you! Your dinamic in discussion is fantastic, I'm always happy to watch you bounce ideas and jokes :) Your friendship is beautiful and heart warming to watch, not to mention very intellectual too :) A.P. looks dashing in that thumbnail, it's hilarious :)

Thanks, it was a very coherent argument with many good examples! If I may add to this picture, the notion of authorship itself developed in European literatures (post-Antiquity) in such a way as to specifically allow "un-original" works in the modern sense. Medieval Norse skalds or Provencal troubadours were consciously creating their own unique texts under their own names, but what was "original" about them was how it was said, not what. They rehashed the same themes and tried to say essentially the same thing, but more beautifully or powerfully. Even in Shakespeare's times, as you both said, copyright wasn't about the story or character names. It was about the text. Hence the "pirate" printings of Hamlet, even when other authors' Hamlets were available. What was monetized was the actual text, as performed on stage. A story didn't matter that much from this perspective. And when "originality" in the modern sense became the norm, a lot of tropes and cliches remained, because writing entirely without tropes is extremely hard to pull off. I'd argue that the idea of removing tropes at all has already shown its limitations in Modernist literature, which, to be fair, is hardly something we now read for the sheer pleasure of it.

Fantastic discussion guys. Really enjoyed this one.

Great discussion, Philip! And love the thumbnail.

Well, this was thought-provoking. As someone who's currently building his own secondary world, there's definitely a mixture of both conscious and unconscious 'homage'. I don't think it's a bad thing, I think it's just mixing those literary ingredients in different ways to best suit the story you want to tell.

Beautiful discussion.

Well done Philip and A.P. 🍿

I always learn so much from you, individually and together. And it's loads of fun. You have my gratitude!

I KNEW IT! Bombadil confirmed. That's ok A.P. @A Critical Dragon I'm pretty sure I've almost finished my transformation into Nanny Ogg.

I think when originality sacrifices a well written and well crafted story it becomes simply a "novel"ty (😅). Thanks for a great discussion.

Fascinating topic! It's been fun for me to look back and discover how my own derivations... er, inspirations have come oozing out, as well (almost all realized in hindsight, btw, as A.P. points out is common). It's sort of funny, as when I was a kid, my original intention was to "continue on with" Tolkien's work. Looking back at it, even though I personally see quite a bit of Tolkien's influence, how many others have shown up just as prominent--particularly in the form of tropes. Speaking of tropes I once told you that my work utilizes magic sparingly, particularly as it affects plot. This sort of backward analysis has me wondering if this is partly due to the amount of historical fiction I read in my youth (largely due to the fact that my mother loved historicals, so... availability!). Fun way to start my birthday. Thanks to you both for the gift of inspiration and thought-provocation. Here's to homages, to the storytellers, and our oozing!

I don't know about the rest of the video (although I have a good feeling about it), but the first two minutes and a half have already paid for my time investment. Philip, you have earned your title of nemesis for once! 🤣🤣🤣This was awesome! (not to mention deeply human, and warm, and funny; not only does it highlight your firendship, but you also shared it with us, and it's such a sweet thing to witness)

Yes, Philip, you did cover this pretty well. Fun to listen to, and I’m wont to agree with all that’s said, y’all are much more eloquent than I.

Authors/want to be authors are also told they should include at least two books their book is similar to. You're literally asked to write down at least two influences along with which modern/popular books your story is like so the publisher knows whose fans to focus on/estimate production on.

With the upcoming Wars of Light & Shadow readalong in mind; I guess we now know that AP is team Arithon and Philip team Lysaer cuz they're nemesis of each other like you two and ofc AP & Arithon are both neferious bards while Lysaer & Philip are both beacons of light & justice (or that's how they portrait themselves as)

Thanks for the upload, guys

Appreciate the conversation. Great examples with Shannara and Donaldson.

Hi 👋 great video always!! Happy reading to you!! 🦋🎥

Hurrah for a mention of China Mieville! If I were you, Philip, I would put on a large boot and kick down your TBR - kick it real good - and get right to the good stuff! This video oozed a lot of sophistication.

"Please stop." Lmao Great vid gents

The Saga of the Volsungs was told with an emphasis on fighting. By the time the same essential story had turned into the Nibelungenlied, it had a more courtly emphasis and more flowery presentation. Times changed and the story changed with it. Tolkien was much further removed and whatever derivations he used (many derivations, but only a few from each source), he described the essential conflict in Lord of the Rings based in part on the way he perceived the world he lived in. Now there is a lot more talk about the stupidity of "evil" races. Things are more complex and our stories reflect our world better, the good stories even driving it forward so we understand more than just our own perspectives. I think that is the essential creativity to stories, even if large kernels of them form the basis of a narrative.

Finally the true identity and mystery of Tom Bombadil has been revealed!

It's really uncanny how natural the thumbnail looks on A.P 😅

I think there's often more opportunity for "originality" in the the style of writing rather than the story material itself. I recently finished "Piranesi" and while there are definitely similarities to other stories I've read, the choice to write it as a series of journal entries that reveal a mystery both about the characters and the environment was refreshing. I do wish more writers would take chances with the medium of writing when it comes to fantasy books.

Its funny, here in my state of Utah a prominent cookie store is suing two smaller cookie stores on the grounds that they “stole” their idea. As if you can own the idea of the fancy cookie. At the end of the day ideas are cheap, it’s how you execute them that matters. I’ve realized over the last almost 4 years of reading fantasy that most authors do similar things, they just put their own spin on it and that’s what distinguishes them from each other.

Another great video. I would love to hear your thoughts on the “role” of the reader, and more specifically, their [reading] experiences. With the explosion of books available to read, the recognition of allusions, hints, references or out right copying differs between readers. A scholarly analysis would still correctly identify the inspiration (or plagiarism). But a reader will only know the connection to the other work if they are familiar with the work. When I read VE Schwab’s Vicious, I saw it as an homage (in the good way) to Frankenstein. When talking to individuals unfamiliar with Mary Shelley’s classic, they had not made the connections and did not see the influence. Or maybe I am completely out to lunch and there are no connections. Regardless my experience created connections that differed from those of another reader.

Reader experience still accounts for a lot, if you only read TLotR and Shannara, you might say that one is a rip-off (sorry AP, "homage") of the other. If you read them, but read another dozen works in between, your experience will be broader, and then you might say SoS is merely inspired by TLotR. And if you read SoS and not TLotR, you might think SoS is wholly original.

Speaking about originally, when will you hold the Janny Wurtz discussion? Am trying to finish before the live show. And as always great discussion.

One item was brought up that I don't believe has been before is authors writing in direct response or counter to another's or taking an element and adding a 'what if' scenario. Dune as a counter argument to Foundation for example or Bakker riffing on a lot of elements in Dune. And I really should read Milton at some point as it sounds right up my alley....

Speaking of Beowulf, have you ever read ‘Eaters of the Dead’ by Michael Crichton? I enjoyed it quite a bit, but I believe it’s his take on Beowulf

About this originality and inspiration topic, there are a few points I would like to make: - first and foremost, thank you, Philip, for pointing out that the expectation for originality comes from the capitalist concept of copyright and for highlighting that stories were (as they should be), common cultural patrimony. Sure, the work of individuals should be rewarded. But stories are the property of all. I will grant that this is a thin line to walk, but the concepts are equally valid nonetheless. This is kind of like writing a cooking book, or having a RU-vid cooking show, claiming that your recipes are your own (despite the fact that you cook traditional food, which has been around since ever, or you use elements of traditional food that have been around since ever), and then getting angry and demanding copyrights on every person that cooks those recipes in their homes. Utterly ridiculous. - for the second point, what on earth is wrong with the literature academic environment? How did they come up with the concept of death of the author and that the author's intention isn't valid (I may be very wrong about this, but I blame the post modernist philosophers for this one, and the shitty concept of personal truth trumping real truth and for the idea that the meaning that a listener of a message- or in this case the reader - gets from the speaker is the only one that is valid, while the intended meaning of the author is irrelevant if it came across differently). Look at music! The great classics have been dead for centuries and we still play their pieces exactly how they wrote them, from the general structure down to every nuance. - and the most complex point, and this is something I have often thought about. If you think of the human psyche as functioning in basic terms of archetypes, be they literary or psychological, then how do you expect true originality? The way I think about it is that archetypes are like the skeletal structure of both psyche and literature, while everything else is the equivalent of, well...e verything else that make sup human anatomy. If you thinkg of archetypes as the sieve through which the mind makes sense of stories, then creation has to go through the same sifting process before it comes out as an original creation. Sure, we can work them differently, we can give them a new coat, but the skeleton remains the same. There are only so many archetypes and an endless list of story tellers that have gone before us and who will succeed us. If we start telling people that this and this and this element they should stay away from because someone else has already used it and has a copyright on it, then we will run out of stories, out of story tellers and out of originality very soon. Perhaps the social expectation of originality needs a good scrubbing to rid it of capitalist influences. I understand the concept of cultural property, but there are issues of nuance that we should be able to acknowledge. True, a scientist working for twenty years to develop something new deserves recognition and protection for his work. At the same time, that doesn't mean that nobody else can use his work because now it belongs to him. As ever, life boils down to a knot of entangled intestines of complex threads. We used to play a game called entangled intestines when we were kids, where as many of us as possible would link our arms and legs in the most unnatural, complicated positions, while the only one left outside the group would have to untangle us without causing us to let go of our hands; it often lead to some people scream in pain as the one trying to disentagle him / her pulled in a position that goes against human anatomy 😂I guess this is a good description for making sense of complexity too, come to think about it.

💕💕💕

Make podcasts for Spotify so I can listen while working

18:40 I haven't read Shakespeare, did he really adapt the stories of others into his work?

Is it a coincidence that Johanna just released a similar video on this topic?

Lol 😄😄😄😄😄😄 how cute. I am sure that was embarrassing for you a.p.

Offtopic - I don't know if you or A.P read any books in a language other than English. It would be wonderful to have a discussion on Translated works and what gets lost in translation or what captures the essence. The reason I wanted to know is because when I read Russian classics (Say War and Peace) I find the themes to be complex but the actual language itself very simple. In the sense that the structuring of the sentences are not complicated at all. Sentences are always short and precise and do not have any Simile or metaphors. I was wondering if its because I'm reading a translation (and much is lost) or just that Russian language has a very simple and straightforward prose which when translated faithfully just comes across and simple in comparison to texts originally written in English.

Ok, you may not like me, I can not get into the Lord of the rings. Tried and it's to slow for me. I did love the hobbit thou..read it when I was young.

🤣🤣🤣 AP Bombadil