It’s a poor motivator. Get away from those people immediately, seriously. If you have children do you threaten them with such things or is your heart from a motivation of love and strong protective love. I’m glad I wasn’t born in America, you need healing ❤️🩹 and restoration. Love is a better motivator isn’t it? Don’t waste anymore time on lies about God , where’s the love in all of this madness?
Never had that in the many churches I went to. The motivation was guilt based..... "Look how much Jesus has done to save you from hell, you should be spending all your efforts to convince everyone else to accept Jesus cause they're going to hell unless we get them to accept Jesus" Not that I agree with that either, but it was the major thing I heard. We should give our money and time to serve God because God is taking us to heaven and saving us from hell, and we'd be ungrateful brats if we didn't try to do stuff for God.
Religious leaders? I have never met a Christian that did not threaten hell at the drop of a hat. There is no hate like Christian love is what I see everywhere.
@@LittleBitofHopeToo2518 your experience is limited. Not surprising. Most of our experience is limited. And no, I am not diminishing the damage done by the entire concept of hell, let alone the teachings you are well aware of. It's just I've known and know many Christians who don't believe in hell and think it's insane.
I encountered some street preachers with a friend of mine once who told him he was going to hell because he wasn't a believer. He responded by asking if they'd be there, and when they said no, he followed up with: 'Good, coz I'd hate to spend eternity with you.' I couldn't help busting out laughing.
I grew up Pentecostal, old school fire and brimstone preachers. Terrified me, traumatized me and turned me away from the church as an adult. I know this isn’t everyone’s experience and I’m very very glad for that.
@keksi6844 Just because the Quran or the Bible says something is true. It doesn't mean it true. Both religions say their's is the only right one; and the other one is wrong, Jahannam for one and hell for the other. Both are books of fiction. And used to for control and power over their followers.
@@jameschapman6559 The Bible has def been a tool used to control people The Catholics and Muslims def use their religion to control people But alot of the stories in the Bible come from older ancient tablets written in cuneiform Found in Mesopotamia The book of Enoch, Atra Hasis, Enuma Elis, epic of Gilgamesh, book of Enki, Dead Sea scrolls are def recommended reads in my opinion I haven’t read the full literature but I’ve been studying and reading as much as possible And def very interesting All ancient texts and not the Bible
Eternal conscious torment is NOT represented in the Gospels, "eternal punishment" is a mistranslation, a much more accurate translation of that phrase would be "chastisement of the age", ie correction in the future age (afterlife and/or after the end of this world). There is a view that is ignored in this enumeration, and that's universalism, which is the view of the Gospels and New Testament in general, or at least that is the most reasonable way to understand why there are dozens of places in the texts that seem to suggest it, here's just some of them: - Parable of the Lost Sheep - Parable of the Lost Coin - Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard - Luke 2:10 And the angel said to them, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL people. - Luke 3:5-6 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways, and ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God. - Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. - John 3:17 God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. - John 12:47 I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. - John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand. - John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. - John 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. - John 17:1-2 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom you have given him. - John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. - Acts 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoration of ALL things. (apokatastaseos panton) - 1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the WHOLE world. - 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. - Romans 5:15 For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. - Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men. - Romans 14:11 As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and EVERY tongue shall confess to God. - Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 8:19-21 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. - Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in ALL. - 2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for ALL - 2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. - Ephesians 1:7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. - Ephesians 4:9-10 In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill ALL things. - Colossians 1:19-20 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. - 1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL. - 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe. (panton anthropon) - Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL people. (pasin anthropois) - Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE. - 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish but everyone to come to repentance. - Revelation 5:13 And I heard EVERY creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” - Revelation 21:4-5 There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making ALL things new.” And it's not just the New Testament, the Old Testament expresses a universalist sentiment too - Psalm 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL, and his mercy is over ALL that he has made. - Psalms 145:14 The Lord upholds ALL who fall. - Isaiah 25:6-8 On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for ALL peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food, of aged wine well refined. And he will destroy up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will destroy up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from ALL faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken. - Isaiah 45:22-23 Turn to me and be saved, ALL the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear allegiance.’ - Isaiah 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, ALL flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. - Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Etc, etc. Also further in the Gospels Jesus says: - Mark 9:49 For EVERYONE will be salted with fire. To be salted means to be preserved, to be saved. And everyone will be purified, not just some, everyone, and everyone saved. Purification by fire is a common metaphor in ancient times, due to everyone being familiar with basics of blacksmithing. Eg: - 1 Corinthians 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Also another Gospel verse says: - Matthew 5:26 Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny. This verse entails that when you have paid the last penny you will get out of that prison.. And again, the verses in the Gospels which are translated to say "eternal punishment" do not say that. Those are mistranslations. That is why there were so many (dozens) of Greek church fathers who were universalists, because they were reading the New Testament it its original Greek.
I remember reading both Ecclesiastes and Job and thought just how unique their narratives are compared to the New Testament. Here were 2 books that fully accepted suffering as our reality, and sometimes at the hands of God and other celestial beings. They gave up trying to reason away the Problem of Evil, if they considered it at all, and just accepted that this is the way life is.
ROFL I get a kick out of Job because an omnipotent being knows Job will always be faithful, but tortures him anyway out of a need to one-up the Devil. Like... Can't you just ignore the Devil's taunting and treat people right, instead of acting like the Devil's gopher?? And if you can't do this, how are mere humans supposed to stand a chance, and we'll be punished anyway when we fail?
Job 10:4 - Job reasons that the only way for God to be truly just (this is a theodicy) is to live his life as a man and experience life as we do. When Job is visited by God he is not reprimanded for that comment, but merely reminded that God is good and will accomplish all that He wills.
Yes, and similarly Ecclesiastes 12:7 says "...the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Not widely recognized.
I tried explaining this to a pastor and pointed out a contradiction in Luke. I asked if he could explain it, and he did no such thing, just called me crazy. LOL some can't handle the truth. Love your videos Dan!
@@donaldjones1 Yes. The rich man asks Abraham if Lazarus can come back from the dead to warn his family about hell. Abraham then says, "They have the word of Moses and the prophets; let them listen to them." But like Dan explained, no where in the old testament is Hell mentioned. I believe this story was just thrown in the new testament and Jesus never talked about it. I mean how would a conversation like that possibly happen?
@@AmericanSubstance The Bible describes hell as when the Lord deals with you by the flames of fire where your worm shall not die, neither shall your FIRE be ever quenched, *"For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.* *And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."*
@@AmericanSubstance Hell pictured as a place of everlasting flames of fire can be found in the book of Isaiah written in the 8th century BC. So much for the ignoramus's claim that the concept of hell was developed as a Greco-Roman influence
Dan, were any of the New Testament authors universalists? I think universalists make a handful of good points about certain passages, but I’m having trouble finding the scholarly consensus.
When I was deconstructing, my "survey of the literature" left me roughly with 3 competing perspectives: 1. ECT (Orthodox view) 2. Annihilationism (AKA "conditional immortality"). "Hell" kills 'em dead. 3. Universal reconciliation I was hoping for #3, but it seemed that all of its proponents even couldn't make a coherent point. Of those, #2 seemed to fit the scriptures best - but not perfectly. That, together with the immorality of #1 & #2, is what finally led me to realize I should question the truth claims of Christianity as a whole. After some more research and thought, I became an atheist. I wrote some more about it on my blog a while ago, if you're interested. (I'm not currently writing or engaging much there, though.) It's linked from my RU-vid About page.
@@ratamacue0320 Thanks, I’ll check it out. Universalists have a handful of scattered verses that make me go “huh, that seems kind of legit”, but nothing very solid or cohesive. Like, a number of the books of the Bible make statements that seem universalism-y, but then most of the rest of the book doesn’t seem to mesh with that view, so I have my doubts that any of the NT authors actually were universalists. I’ve gotta look into it more, though.
I had a preacher tell me the other day I was going to hell. I asked him for a favor and he said what’s that. I said could you please make sure I’m buried lying face down so at least I can see where I’m going.
@@infiniti28160 the problem with Dan's concept is this would be the greatest conspiracy ever pulled off with everything agreeing to keep a lie together and write all the books the same across the 4 corners of the earth and there to be no errors. The scriptures were not a recent invention. We habe the 1st epistles estimated 3-6 after the resurrection.
Yes, he should have included universal reconciliation (apokatastasis) in this video as it is one of the multiple takes on postmortem punishment found among some biblical authors.
I was always confused by what the nuns were saying: that I’d be judged by God when I died, and he’d send me to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory, and that I’d be raised and judged again at the end if the world and sent to Heaven or Hell. I think they were trying to reconcile the two battling Christian scenarios of Resurrection (Paul, etc) and Immediate Afterlife (Greeks, etc). When we went to the cemetery and saw all the tombstones with REST IN PEACE, I used to wonder, with all the souls already alive somewhere in the afterlife, what it meant.
@@squiddwizzard8850 well yes, Protestants as well relies on some kind of Tradition, They rely on the First 4 councils. My point in the comment was that is more easy to talk about those things in High Church Christianity, because usually it let itself to use as well philosophy or tradition like the Church Fathers or Oral tradition to answer those things, while Protestants Just rely of the Bible usually
These writers loved to borrow ideas from the cultures around them. It makes sense: they were constantly being taken over by the other nations, so of course they adopted their pantheons with their divine portfolios, and then mashed them into their texts. Of course they adopted the conquering peoples’ religious rites and customs and claimed them as their own. And lastly, they tried to sanitize those into the narrative it comes in the Bible today.
Didn't the Egyptians have a judgement in the afterlife? I'm surprised that it took so long to develop in the Jewish text. I mean there is some sort of Egypt connection with the whole Exodus story. It's apparently close enough for Joseph and Mary, per the text, to flee for safety.
@@jenniferhunter4074 I've heard that the story of Moses, particularly the story of him being retrieved from the river in a basket, may have been lifted from much older Egyptian folklore. I think the Egyptian gods also had virgin birth. Yahweh, which I've heard shortened to "Yah" and "Ra" are also kind of similar. Maybe their origins had connections.
Most people seem to fall into categories nowadays. Those who base their religion on writings and teachings that are divinely inspired and those who believe religion is the cause of most of the problems on the planet and should be done away with. In both cases, there is nothing to be gained through discussion. Both groups are basically evangelical fundamentalists. With the first group, how text and teachers and leaders came to be has no bearing on anything. It's all divinely inspired. If it's something that doesn't make sense, it's simply something one cannot understand unless one is divinely inspired. The second group thinks that belief in anything other than life and death is not only a waste of time, it is a threat to the advancement of the species and delusional. Best I can tell, there may be a couple hundred people who can sensibly discuss religion. 🤣
@@randybaker6042 Yes it seems people fall into categories. I am between categories on some "important" issues which makes discussions very difficult. Most people appeal to popularity on a subject and then mock others for a different opinion. It is all a mess. I guess you're not supposed to talk about politics and religion, right? 😊
@@Telavian it's frustrating. It really doesn't seem too difficult to look at things from the outside. Dan is a great example of being able to do it. But once agenda rears it's ugly head, it's over. Even within science and academia, once someone feels the need to protect or bolster a view, discussion gets off track. The majority of it is almost unavoidable. A lot of it stems from defending things that need defending but as is the case with society, the lines between defense and offense quickly become indistinguishable.
Sheol is often referring to the grave, when used in the Torah. In Genesis, Jacob says he will go down to his son in Sheol. At the time, he thought that Joseph was dead.
I'd long had some problems with the new testament description of heaven and the afterlife of the believer, but learning and realizing that our modern Christian idea of hell wasn't exactly scriptural either had some serious impacts on my faith.
I think it's a misunderstanding of scripture or not. A total understanding. Because if you pick parts of the Bible it won't never make sense when u read it. But As a one narrative, it should work out fine. Besides, God created the heavens and the Earth. And if Jesus is God is the one who makes hell For the devil and his angels, according to Matt 25 so it makes sense to me to listen to what he has to say about it. And the fiery pit and what most people think about. No one is in that place, cause that doesn't happen. Until the very end of time.
I'm deconstructing from Christianity and I'm at a point where I believe in a unified, collective source-of-all situation. However, I detest organized religion. As long as I live, I will never forget how it felt,having read the Bible cover-to-cover, when I concluded that Hell didn't exist. The relief and closure were overwhelming. I was never able to be baptized because I never felt right about it. No part of my brain would ever release and say, "Ok. It's time to do this." And now I know why- the commitment just wasn't something that was suited for me.
Fascinating topic. Thank you Dan. When I discuss with evangelicals they believe very few will make it to heaven and everyone else will be in hell, aka a complete fail on God's part. The more I study the Bible, Koran and Bhavagad Gita I'm understanding that it's not a heaven vs hell proposition but rather our progression and the resultant multiple levels of heaven. Most everyone will be in heaven.
Dan, I'd also say (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that the influence of Zoroastrianism and its "Dualism" concept seemed to play a part in the Jewish development of divine reward/punishment after death...a developing concept that started to be more "fleshed out" and accepted by the time Jesus was born....it was used throughout his ministry and ultimately helped shape Paul's theology (and later Christian theology) as a whole.
I'll say this the concept of hell...is basically the ultimate fear tactic.. hence in most bible guides for Bible mentors the basic instruction is introduce them to the concept of hell..plus the modern understanding in most people's mind actually comes from Dante's Inferno..
Sadly, Islam hijacked the idea as a good way to control the masses. They were once Christian and Jews in Saudi Arabia but got force removed, this is how Islam got the ideas from those versions of hell but ramp it up.
I'm a bit of a scholar myself. There are holes in Dan's theory. I'm quite aware of the horrid translations but scripture definitely draws distinction in various context of scripture including the righteous in Abraham's blossom vs the unrighteous in the bad side of sheol. Same place, radically different experiences. His theory doesn't hold up. Mass conspiracy to perfectly translate in all languages all over the world to spread a lie.
I haven't seen you discuss the idea of purgatory. I know it's not really discussed in the bible, but there a lot of verses used to descibe it, and some of them come from the Apocrypha.
“Our concept of hell”… what is this? Burning in fire? If so, I’d say it is there quite plainly in the parables of the wheat & tares as well Jesus’ teaching on pruning fruitful branches and cutting off unfruitful branches. The unfruitful branches become fuel for the fires of hell.
The idea of an underworld, in relation to the view of earth in Genesis 1, makes sense. Seeing celestial objects disappear beneath the horizon when you believe in a flat earth would imply that there IS an underworld (under our feet) of some sort.
1:48 Paul does refer to the resurrection of the unjust or “wicked” in Acts 24:15 “I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”
IF hell was a thing, then why doesn't God or his prophets ever threaten anyone w it in OT? The only punishment ever mentioned, for going against his word or breaking the law is Death, with ZERO Indication of a punishment beyond that...🤔
He's right. Sheol just simply means "the grave." It has nothing to do with burning in some lake of fire for all eternity. The lake of fire is a symbolic way of saying "the sinner who keeps sinning will be destroyed and never come back" which amounts to the 2nd death spoken about in Revelation. Eternal destruction No resurrection for you. That's it. I made a video about this a few months back and it's nice to see someone else actually telling the truth. Very few people are aware of this. Thank you
I'm not sure what there'd be to say. Universalists are all over the map with beliefs all along the spectrum from hell not existing at all to the stereotypical fiery pit. Universalist beliefs don't really contribute to popular conceptions of hell so much as they piggyback on existing ones.
It's just as much a result of buffet theology as the doctrines which have eternal damnation and/or oblivion for some: you get to pick what verses support the ideas that you find most appealing. When you've got people quoting from the Epistles to support the idea of eternal damnation and people quoting from the Epistles to support universal reconciliation, it makes it sort of hard to take either seriously.
I’d be amazed if he hadn’t heard of it. But there’s no mainstream denomination that adheres to any form of universalism, so it seems somewhat fair to leave it out.
@@DVN5381 True but he’s taking today’s present idea of “Christianity”. I’m more interested in what early century Christians thought and how they reasoned things out. Origen was an early church father that believed in a a form universalism. It should be at least presented as an option
@@claysindledecker6476 It probably should be presented as an option since universal reconciliation seems to be explicitly stated in multiple places within the Bible. But in a 3 minute video about “our concept of Hell”, I think it’s reasonable not to get into Universalism. Most universalists are likely to already familiar with the idea that modern ideas of Hell are not clearly stated in the Bible.
@@theoriginalscottmalkinson6161 I think the reference is to the experience of growing up a JW rather than a take on the concept of hell. Or to put it another way, 'AH SAY! IT'S A JOKE SON!'
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
You're wrong...Daniel 12:2. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” In the Psalms David talks repeatedly about Sheol and Abaddon. These are equivalent to Paradise and Hades in the New Testament.
Speaking more as an Aligheri fan who was raised Roman Catholic than a Bible scholar, that's closer to putting the cart before the horse. Aligheri was devout and did not attempt to stray from doctrine and dogma at the time. The imagery likely had some later influence in how Hell was discussed. The sins he ranked and emphasized were his personal opinion. That still caused some to change their angles on the ones he differed with popular opinion about at the time.
@@lysanamcmillan7972 "Some" influence? The popular depictions and references of of Hell are pretty much pure Dante with occasional guest stars from other religions.
I wonder whether it was right to an extent at least. The Valley of Hinnom seems to have been associated with idolatry, corruption and death. So for example "body and soul cast into Gehenna" basically meant a dishonourable death.
Yeah...but it's amazing how you see in the scriptures what youve thought was there. If youve read the bible believing in the midieval concept of hell, it looks like it's plain as day that's what the bible is talking about. Thanks for your fight for the truth.
The Orthodox belief is that we all go to the same place when we die (the escaton), a good way I have heard it be described is, God eternally loves you but depending on how much you loved him the experience will be different eg. If you were an atheist, God still loves you but, it'll feel stalkerish
A correction here on what Dan said. What kind of place is Sheol, we have 3 investigations from the literature, two biblical and one from the midrash. The first is from Sam 28:13-15 “an Elohim came ascending from beneath” . . . . “And said Samuel to Saul why have you disturbed me by bringing up me” Notice the wording here, it’s rather explicit, Samuel is being drawn away/up from something and this is a disturbance to him, it did not explicitly say he was sleeping. The words Elohim are either an interpretation or later rewording. But the wording itself is not implicitly Jewish, this could be presented in multiple mystical context (noting the Elohim exclusion) In Ezekiel we see the passage whereby Ezekiel is taken to a plain which overlooks the Cheber (A canal) and then Ezekiel was instructed to go to a house. The finally we have the legend of Rabbi Akiva and three rabbi’s descent. What can we make of these mysterious passages. In Jewish mysticism the exploration of the Hekhalot begins with a descent, in normalized mysticism this is a barren plain. There is no structure on the plain, then one encounters a chasm. Beyond the chasm is the structure (dome, religious buildings, houses). The chasm seems impassible, but the mystic continues across the chasm and enters the structure. This is “Sheol”. It is chaos, it is the food for delusions. Within the search on encounters a bright light, a column of light or a shaft on energy, this is the interpretation of heaven. The rabbi Akiva portrays these journeys as driving men to madness. In the first case the mystic, who has some experience, does not draw Saul into the chasm, but draws Samuel up from this. Saul is not forced to encounter Sheol, but he forces Samuel out of Sheol which disturbs Samuel. If we put these two halves together we see that Jewish philosophy paints Sheol as a place we’re the souls of the dead belong (at least for a time) and then depart. I disagree, but that’s not the matter here. In the second case Ezekiel is trying to reach god, he is being instructed on how to find god in heaven, without such instruction he might be misled. So let’s place Sheol into mystical thinking. Sheol is a place of the passed ones (avoiding the word soul). If we journey to Sheol, it’s like breaking into a house and snooping around, the inhabitants of the house confound the intruder, i.e. drives men to madness. Having spent enough time in Sheol as a mystic (before I even knew what Jewish mysticism had to say about it), got to say, don’t go there. As Sheol is a place of the passed ones, so the other side of the chasm is disturbing to them, as Samuel is disturbed. So we need an analogy for this, if we say Antarctica is a hostile place, but then we look at emperor penguins who would think a tropical island is a hostile place. Esoterically I cannot describe “Sheol”, but I can put it like this. Sheol is a place where the passed ones should reside, and this world is where the living should live. Sheol seems hostile and confused to us, because we have yet to pass, but for those who are passed, Sheol is their place. I cannot answer the question is there a god or heaven, but in the human mind there is a shared place of darkness beyond the chasm, beyond which we encounter the passed ones, or as a mystic can draw them out. As we can see both of these are taboo in Jewish mysticism, and the justifications are reasonable. There are truths in these places, but for the unprepared these are buried in deception, the further one is from Sheol the less opaque the truths become. Note: I do not advocate mysticism or mystical exploration. But the fact exists that the ‘mystic of Endor’ legend does not stand alone in the literature for there are and will always be natural mystics. If you find yourself encountering something like Sheol my best advice is to use mysticism to modulate those experiences back to the living side.
I've always felt that the current view of hell was developed by people who said "If *I* were God, *this* is what I'd do to you, because I'm cruel but pretending to be just." That would explain why so many Christians, who are supposed to care whether people go to Heaven or Hell, take such delight in telling people that they are going to hell, almost rubbing their hands together in anticipation.
It goes both ways tho. People with genuine good will are taught that eternal torture is the godly response to transgression, and that can be incredibly destructive to a person's empathy. Because they *have* to tell themselves that this is justice, even if their heart knows it isn't.
Actually in the OT the righteous and wicked did go to different places. The wicked went to Sheol or the realm of the dead. The righteous went to a place of comfort called Paradise or Abraham’s bosom.
I just mentioned thats too. His theory doesn't hold up at all. I'm not even a fully trained apologist and this is easy to debunk. The extreme lengths to spread a lie and translate perfectly in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and English is the first of many issues. I studied as well. Many of us are scholars.
So if evil people are just going to be annihilated then who cares? Do whatever you want to here and then it's all over, but Jesus speaks about eternal punishment clearly.
People who aren’t narcissists, sociopaths, or psychopaths are the ones who care. If the threat of hell is only reason someone isn’t doing horrific things than they are horrific people to begin with.
Hell and Heaven are quite similar as I've been to both. Both demand the abandonment of God's gift of free will either unto Joshua's Heaven that requires your subservience of your soul or Satan's Hell that requires domination of your soul. Two sides of the same coin.
Owen Morgan covered this topic some years ago. This information is very surprising for us simple Christians ! I believe in God, and Jesus. I believe there is Hell, but you have to try hard to earn it.
Daniel 12 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
The Caananite / ugurit litature. The afterlife / shoel is described as pure misery, a lake one of phlem and mucus and above it a city. You get stories that say pretty much how horriable it is and no one can escape it but then there are lists of people who escape like Baal, who defeats mot and returns to El. Etc assuming hebrews and cananites shared beliefs ( as they both worshipped baal and yahweh ) the stories of Baal escape the nether would have been known. Probably the context of what we see about shoel being described as pit etc comes from Ugarit or the Apocraphal texts such as book of enoch which us right the 3rd to 2nd BCE also show hell as bad place. Book of Daniel also refers to the place of Dust and some waking up from it and some not. This could be mix of evolving or caanaite and Persian ( zorasterianism ) influence. I wouldnt say nessarily that these ideas of a good or bad place are new to the church fathers. Rather you see evolution from caananites to persians to greek to roman texts with Hebrews interacting with them and their cultures.
I honestly don’t understand what you are asking. Perhaps you should start by asking your church what their doctrinal idea of hell is. Afaik there’s a lot of substantial variation on what hell is among different Christian denominations. On RU-vid scholarly channels like Religion for Breakfast have made in-depth videos about the historical development of the concept of hell. Dr. Sledge at the channel Esoterica has a video about Sheol. Just a couple of suggestions off the top of my head but I am sure there’s others.
That's kinda the thing, the point of the video. There is no consistent idea of hell. Paul alludes to one concept. The gospels allude to multiple concepts. Later christians developed even more concepts. There is no "most likely" here. You have two options. Arbitrarily decide which source is authoritative and run with that as best you can. This is what you might call the vibes approach. Asserting a thing because it feels good. Or, accept that there has never been any consistency on the subject and that they are all equally valid. In the sense that there is no authoritative view and each is just an opinion with no discernible grounding in reality. Personally, I'm a Benatarist when it comes to conceptions of hell.
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” - Matthew 10:28 And 2 Esdras 7 has a long discussion on the immediate effects of death on the disembodied person ("spirit" of the person in the Tanakh, like with Samuel when Saul has the medium summon him from sheol). It seems that Yahuah made a safe place for those who love him so that they don't face the torment and decay inherent in the spirit realm, but instead have a guarded rest.
There is no inconsistency in the New Testement regarding hell. Hell is eternal concious torment as described by Jesus Christ, though it is not generally the topic of Paul's epistles. The fire and brimstone with little demons tormenting the denisens of hell, yes that is a more modern invention, but hell is consistently depicted as eternal seperation from God. Theologically, God is the source of all goodness, and thus seperation from Him is what we call hell. The colorful language used by Christ to describe hell is more metaphorical than anything else, conveying "you don't want to go here." It is important to differentiate hell from sheol, since they are not the same place. Sheol was the destination of the dead pre-advent, before the coming of Christ.
So, when Jesus Christ says that, at the judgment, the justified go to eternal life and the wicked to eternal punishment, we are not to believe him (Matthew 25:46)?
Look up scholar David instone brewer. He explains how the words used in Greek for eternal punishment was connected to the idea of the Qumron idea of a punishment followed by eternal extinction, and he shows historical evidence for this and that this is what Jesus audiance understood the Greek words he used to mean. Those words were difficult to translate into English so they translated them as eternal punishment.
Look up scholar David instone brewer. He explains how the words used in Greek for eternal punishment was connected to the idea of the Qumron idea of a punishment followed by eternal extinction, and he shows historical evidence for this and that this is what Jesus audiance understood the Greek words he used to mean. Those words were difficult to translate into English so they translated them as eternal punishment.
@@brokengirl8619 You mean this paper? 2015: "Eternal Punishment in First Century Jewish Thought" It seems to me that his conclusion is that eternal punishment is indeed eternal and punishment but not sentient. Unfortunately for his argument the word aisthésis does indeed mean perception, understanding, discernment. Again, our aim ought to be to understand what the Biblical text is saying without confusing it with extra Biblical Qumran speculation.
Dan is virtually 100% correct about what the Bible presents & claims about "hell". The really interesting thing is, how did come to his conclusion? By doing what he says you shouldn't try to do & is invalid to do. He has put scattered passages together, to come up with "what the Bible says".
I'm confused. You say that the modern concept of hell isnt in the Bible, but you also acknowledge that verses in the Gospels support ECT, which is the predominant protestant view of hell. Maybe im missing something, but these seem inconsistent. Would you kindly clarify?
He's means the OT... often (though not always) when Dan says "Bible" he is referring to the "Hebrew Bible"...which for Christians is the OT. He is saying that the concept of Hell (especially as we know it today) is not found in the OT...at least not until some of the more later passages, which scholars believe were written/developed during the Greco-Roman period...because it is during these years there seems to be lots of literature from various cultures that have this type of concept...and there also seemed to be an explosion of Jewish literature following suite so to speak...
It is all so confusing, TRULY. 1st Thess 4 "... with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God and THE DEAD IN CHRIST will RISE FIRST." Wait a minute... you mean my deceased family and friends are sleeping? I thought they were in Heaven, smiling down on me(?) Or walking beside me... That's what everyone said after the funeral...
First notice how on the last day Christ tells the goats on the left, Matthew 25:41-“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Then notice the righteous in Galatians 3:27-28-“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” So it is clear that the righteous and the wicked do not go to the same place and are eternally separated. Also see: Revelation 19:20-“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” Revelation 20:14-15, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 21:8-“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
In the latter years of my Christian faith before I left, I was convinced of annihilationism. The concept of souls possessing immortality, to my knowledge, wasn't present in the concept of nephesh. In fact, the Hebrew word itself was applicable to corpses, which would be strange if it was some ethereal thing. I had noticed that Paul, like you mentioned, never said anything about Gehenna. Those who trust in Jesus would have eternal life. Those who don't would suffer destruction. It also didn't make sense to me that one should be rewarded eternal life for trusting in Jesus and repenting. After all, an immortal soul already possesses eternal life, but Paul speaks of death, not life, for the wicked. One person I spoke to before interpreted eternal life as a kind of quality of life, which the wicked wouldn't have. It's interesting, but this comes off as a modern view.
So in the Bible you have the idea of eternal conscious torment - so what part of "Our concept of hell" isn't in the Bible? That's not clear at all from the video.
Disclaimer: not one scripture was used in the making of this video scripture that explicitly teach hell “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Matthew 25:41 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
What is the Christian religion? Who is it's leader? What is it called? I know of a lot of different Christian religions (that say the other is not the Christian religion) but I don't know this Christian religion you speak of. I have known and know quite a few people who say they are Christian who think the concept of hell is insane.
There is a Hell I have been taken to it by God and you do not want to be there. Darkeness, nakedness and hopelesness. Some of the people in there have told me they were in there since "the beginning" whatever that might mean, they were doing repetative and purposeless work there. This man is mistaken and contradicts himself. Jesus was clear on hell. Many of you are happy that he tells you what you want to hear. Seek God and let him reveal the truth.
Okay, so what is the "concept of hell as we understand it today" that it "isn't found anywhere in the Bible"? Because you haven't defined it and instead provide a number of biblical elements which you admit feed into it. So what in particular is not derived from the Bible?
The name hell is actually pagan. Its from the old Norse mythology. Helheim or Hel was the opposite place of Valhall. So if you meet some street preacher or something thats rambling about damnation and hell fire you can tell him that he him self must repent and believe in Odin if he wants to avoid the place. Christianity really needs a new reformation so we can throw away this evil fire and brimestone doctrine for ever. This is absolutely insane.
God's revelation to man is progressive so it should not be surprising that details are added to this model, which was already floating around in the ancient world 1,000 years before Christ. In addition the condition of man is progressive as a result of this knowledge. For example, before the law of Moses was explicitly laid out, men did live in more of a "gray area" as to what sort of people they were. Romans says that the law was given to show people how sinful they were. It multiplied transgression, not righteousness. Since the early views of Sheol and Hades were developed when all of our relationship with God was more of a gray area it is not surprising that the afterlife would be a continuation of that ambiguity. The concept of the afterlife changed in sync with the spiritual condition of man. In other words, the original concept of Sheol was very suitable for the state of man before the Law of Moses, and the concept of Sheol with a section of torment much like the Tartaros of Hades was suitable for where man was in the first century A.D. Unlike the Greeks, the Jews had a more developed idea of what happened to the righteous after death. The conception was called "Paradise" in scripture, with connotations of a garden such as the garden of Eden. This was where Abraham and Moses and the Prophets went, after a long rest, while waiting for the final judgement. Jesus told the thief on the cross "this day you shall be with Me in paradise." This is not the same thing as the modern conception of "heaven" where we sit on clouds and play harps. Rather it was a logical continuation of the cosmology laid out from the beginning. Man was in a morally ambiguous position prior to the garden. His awareness of sinfulness began after that and was made more clear by the law of Moses. The changing understanding of the afterlife reflected man's condition. It is not necessarily a reflection of "changing the story". Rather it is filling out the story as man's condition itself changed. Before the law, it made sense for the afterlife to be an ambiguous place because that was the typical situation humans were in. Once the sinfulness of man was more complete, they also had more understanding of what that meant for the afterlife. Those who died without faith took their sins with them, and though Hades may have been only a holding place for the final day of judgement, just waiting around for that day would be torment in itself if your soul was not at peace with God.
what are you talking about? The Bible mentions hell in many places, including: Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50 Jesus describes hell as a place of eternal fire, darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth for the unrighteous. He calls it "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in Matthew 25:41. Matthew 10:28 The New Testament word "Gehenna" is described as a place where both the soul and body can be destroyed in "unquenchable fire". In many English versions, "Gehenna" is translated as "Hell" or "Hell fire". Romans 6:23 God states that the penalty for sin is spiritual death and separation from God in a place of judgment called hell. John 3:16-18 Jesus teaches that sinners who don't believe in Him as their Savior will perish and go to hell.
I don't understand exactly how this works. The gospels very clearly mention the river of flames. Jesus himself mentions a place of eternal fire. Are the gospels not the bible?
Jesus mentions the term Gehenna which is the Hebrew Gehinnom, the valley where the Israelites sacrificed their children by fire; in Jeremiah and Isaiah the idea of this valley is used symbolically for destruction of those who did not listen to YHWH; and during the second temple period when concrete ideas about a fiery afterlife started to form, a lot of it was taken from Hellenism, Greek concept of a punishment for the titans which the high gods imprisoned for eternity; it’s not surprising that we then see God in the Bible imprison angels in Tartarus; and the lake of fire, well would you be surprised if I told you there’s a river of fire in Greek mythology known as Phlegathon which goes down to Tartarus? People usually thought the dead go to the underworld, which the Greeks called hades; and if you live around places where you see lava and volcanoes you associate the lava to be something in the underworld. The word “Gehenna” was used by Jesus similarly as the Hebrew prophets did, the Hebrew prophets did not believe in a fiery torture place; there’s no “hell” in the Hebrew Bible but Jesus used the term figuratively which is why there’s metaphors, hyperboles, and parables; the text has him repeatedly say things in parables or figurative language just look at Luke 16 and the parable with Lazarus. Also the lake of fire is from revelation, a book which most Christians contested and wasn’t even supposed to be in the Bible, regardless it’s highly symbolic and was written as a revenge fantasy against the Roman Empire and Nero as beast.
Only in KJV… when you read it in the original context hell is nowhere to be found. Jesus speaks about it metaphorically we create our own hell due to our evil actions. In the Bible he speaks about Gehenna which is Jewish concept were you go to purify your soul before being with G-d or Hashem. But also speaks about Hades and Tartarus which are greeks versions of afterlife. The concept of Hell is a modern concept…
@@luisfontanez5681 it absolutely was in the new testament. It just wasnt the english word “Hell” the new testament was written un greek and the greek word for hell is Gehenna.
@@christianvance1614 Yes correct but in judaism “Gehenna” is place of spiritual purification not torture and every one goes there before heaven. Only the real wicked stay there until they are redeemed or cleansed of all sins. The jewish beliefs are almost the same in Jesus’s day than it is today. The whole Bible was written by jews.
@@christianvance1614is translation you are correct but the meaning of what hell is just as how mr mcclellan describes. The Bible is not clear on the concept of hell or gehenna at all. Also jews to this day believe in Gehenna as a spiritual cleansing before going to heaven. Only the real wicked stay forever.
@@luisfontanez5681 Yeah I am not Jewish. Thats why I believe their is no purgatory or middle place you go before heaven or hell, because Jesus Christ is the door and the key. His death and resurrection built the bridge that allows us to crossover immediately to our next destination. But again im not Jewish in ethnicity nor religiosity so thats just my viewpoint of it.
