Hi all - Dan Bowermaster here. Thanks for having me on the podcast. Thanks for all the comments and questions. Happy to share some more perspective. The podcast went by quickly.
Nerdy master electrician in North Mississippi intended to build a solar farm for charaties deeply interested into electric vehicle charging would love to see/hear more on contents of Chargin stations how to why an why nots
Thanks Dan! Bidirectional V2G charging is also something that interests me greatly in concept (and in promises), but that I feel like I know very little about. Encouraging to hear you say that the technology is essentially already there, but not necessarily the fine tune balancing. I listened to the section back several times, but still feel like I'm missing the full picture. Could you describe (or point me to some useful sources) in what aspects the tech is already solved vs what pieces are still missing and being figured out through pilots? Is it about physical infrastructure on the grid side? Is it about managing car load and maintaining sufficient charge in customer vehicles? Is it more about having the communication between different power sources to know how much you actually need to pull from EVs at any given moment? You're probably right that I can't follow the technical details, but a slight dip into the major categories of challenges and successes that we're looking at would be awesome. (Plus, generally, I'd rather have the details and not understand them - many smart people can help explain, than to have general information that my untrained and stupid brain can't always distinguish from the misinformation. Haha, but thanks either way!
Outstanding episode. Having worked in the electrical industry for decades, I have always respected EPRI - a great resource and always pretty timely. I also appreciate Out of Spec for examining most issues from many angles and not always promoting a "side".
I would have liked to have concurred, since it had a plethora of information. But it was so broad that it did none of the specific subject matters justice. And was it even misleading in some areas. For example the quoted required increase in capacity of the grid to accommodate EVs. Was never explained in terms of how it was calculated. And since load shifting should greatly reduce any required increase. The figures that were given seem dubious. And this is just a critique of the post not of EPRI. I was just hoping for a more focused and substantial analysis of the issues.
When A/C started to get more common in residential homes the utility company upgraded transformers as needed when neighborhoods started implementing. Simliar for EVs but with EVs a simple answer is to charge them at night when there is excess power on the grid.
"with EVs a simple answer is to charge them at night when there is excess power on the grid" That's where we need to go. The tricky part is how to get mainstream vehicle owners to actually do it. The big problem here is that most people use technology in its default configuration, and, assuming everybody plugs in their cars at 6 PM when they get home from work, the default charging configuration puts all the load on the grid at the worst possible time. I can see a fundamental tension here where you have solution that is most optimal from a standpoint of energy and infrastructure, and another solution that is optimal in terms of consumers not having to understand anything or think about anything, even if feels wasteful in terms of physical resources. For example, on the topic of cold weather charging, the easy solution from the technical side is for the user to precondition the battery, but that requires users to know/remember to do it, so you have people pushing for a technical solution that is much harder (make batteries that can charge at colder temperatures and don't need preconditioning) or wasteful (just burn gasoline), simply because they don't want to have be burdened with thinking "the weather is cold, so I need to press the 'battery precondition' button 30 minutes before driving the car to the charger". Managing routine home charging for the electricity grid is kind of a similar problem. The simple technical solution (offer price incentives for users to shift their charging to late at night) works very well in terms of physical resources, but places cognitive load on the users (needing to switch electricity plans and/or figure out how to configure the car's charging settings, plus remembering to override the charging settings those rare times you need to). To avoid the cognitive load on users, people imagine solutions that consume lots more physical resources (e.g. everybody charging their cars at 6 PM and utilities meeting demand by building lots of additional fossil-fueled power plants that come on one hour per day). Somehow, people need to be able to figure out how to get solutions that are close enough to optimal from the standpoint of both physical resources and lazy car owners not wanting to think.
Night time charging is the exact worst time to charge, if the source of energy is solar. And even when night time charging makes sense, just simply wishing for it doesn't make it happen. Electric rates based on supply and demand is what is needed. But like all practical solutions, it's not a 'simple answer'. FWIW, A/C stands for air conditioning, AC Is the abbreviation for alternating current. Plus the analogy was horrendously convoluted and inappropriate. But besides those factors it was a great comment.
@@ab-tf5fl a) One method I promote is to use the option within the phone apps or car charging to say "finish charging by x:xx am" ... this lets the car figure out when to start charging. If you don't drive much then it will likely charge after 9pm. b) utility companies can just really promote plans that cost WAY less off-peak -- could be implemented a variety of ways. Mine has a Time-of-Use so better to charge at night. I tell my car to finish by 5 am when the rates (in general) start going up.
@@ab-tf5fl Re: cold weather battery preconditioning --- some car companies do this automatically if you route to a charger/supercharger. That is when it puts the battery in a 'optimim' state. This works well on road trips but when people are charging locally they may not 'route' to a charger/supercharger because they know how to get there.
The US residential grid is at 240 volts it's just that most outlets (90%+) are 120 volt outlets while range and dryer outlets (and a few others) are 240 volt outlets. With EV charging we will need a few more 240 volt outlets installed, primarily 1 or 2 at each house.
You're exactly right. Most individual cars sit parked 20+ hours a day (there is federal data one this). Matching low cost, reliable (and easy) low power charging is foundational.
Dan commented that L2, as low as 12 kW, being sufficient for school bus charging. That makes sense to me, since the bus will only drive twice daily for about 50 miles each time, and have 22 hours to charge up when parked. However, if I were running a school bus fleet, then I would want to charge only during my "super-off-peak" window. For some utilities that window can be as short as 4 hours. Doing so would require more than the 19 kW max for L2 charging in North America.
I wonder if there’s any reason there couldn’t be two AC charging ports that operate in parallel? Like one on each side, but both can work together, dumping almost 40kw into the vehicle? I wonder if that would be cheaper than a bunch of low power DCFC equipment.
The schools down here on the central coast have Solar covered staff parking. That is a lot of KW of on site energy that could side step pulling from the grid while it is sunny. So daytime L2 charging is not as big Grid load.
@@haanc2 what you are suggesting is possible but it would be very costly and complex..... A 50 kW bi-directional DCFC, has the added advantages of being able to use DC energy more efficiently, such as from PV, plus money could be made off of energy arbitrage... and it eliminates the need for 2 or any AC on board chargers..... So the DCFC option is more cost-effective and less complex overall, plus it has peripheral advantages..... But I liked your out of the box thinking on the issue. Fwiw, in China there's a vehicle with dual DCFC ports for extremely fast charging... When both ports are used at the same time or separately... Sorry I can't remember the make and model....
School bus electrification is a great example of a need for education so the customer (the school district) can make the right choice for their specific situation and short- and long-term needs.
I think the biggest unknown is urban charging for city dwellers when they don´t have their own place to park & charge. putting a charger in every parking spot and ensuring charge back happens. That thing in Chicago last week was partially about people (inappropriately) using fast chargers because they don´t have slow ones. public chargers as a kind of public utility in cities is the thing that really isn´t happenning yet.
Great discussion. Including the links to sources at EPRI and other sources was much appreciated. Francie asked good questions, and Dan from EPRI had knowledgable answers. It would be great to get Dan to come back and get into some of the more technical questions about adapters, virtual power plants, demand charges, utility and DOE data about DC fast charger utilization, etc.
The detractors like to say that if everyone switched to EVs tomorrow, the grid would surely crash. Of course, this is not going to happen; the grid will adapt over time as the adoption of EVs grows over time. Seldom discussed though is that as we see more EVs on the road, we will have less need for oil and the power hungry refineries that consume up to 6 Kilowatt Hours to produce a single gallon of gasoline. That kind of energy consumption could charge my EV to travel 26 miles. And those refineries are a drain on the grid 24/7, while I charge my EV overnight when demand is lower. The grid will be much more efficient when we fully transfer to EVs, two way charging, renewable generation and storage, and when we begin to shut down refineries.
I love that Dan is seemingly a car guy (VW Type 2 poster, model cars - including a 1993 Boxster Concept, etc). I think that is probably very beneficial in his role.
Thanks. I grew up with Ford Model As (my mom drove that as the family car in the 1970s; dad took the bus to work). Grandpa was a heavy-equipment mechanic and truck driver and had a Model T and a 1920s Chevy. Later on in life, Dad got a WWII Jeep for the family cabin, so yes - we grew up with cars, trucks, and things that go.
It's called solar covered parking lots with battery backup. Think Walmart supercenters and malls parking lots covered with solar canopies and battery megapacks collecting the excess energy not used by the stores or EVs for overnight use. At first LFP packs then transitioning to even cheaper Sodium Ion packs. They're going to be built modularly, growing as the EV transition grows. Wind and tidal river power will be used for large cities, which were all built around said rivers as they were founded due to commerce of that time being done via ships. The East River, for example, has enough tidal power to power all of NYC by itself. Batteries and wind will be used for that short time when the tide changes.
Thanks Francie and Dan. I really love this episode because of the information given to allow transition to EVs without fear of the grid not being able to handle the capacity. Francie, really appreciate you for being inquisitive enough to allow us consumers to be educated on the efforts and possibilities of future power requirements and resolutions. I believe that consumer education like this is the one way to ease people's anxiety over transition to EVs. Kudos to you Dan for making it easier to digest and understand the grid and what is going on in the industry.
Level 1 charging never seems to make it in these conversations. If vehicles spend 20 hours per day in a parking space that’s more than 36,000 miles of range per year for the average car (almost triple the average drivers needs). Level 1 is the cheapest to build, uses the least resources and is the most energy efficient way to charge. Please please consider Level 1 in future discussions, it’s insane that everyone ignores it.
Francine and Dan. Excellent discussion. Thank you. As Dan said, most charging occurs overnight when there is supply excess. Peak load pricing will ensure that customers will use off peak hours to charge. This effectively increases revenue to the utility with little increase in costs. This “new “ revenue stream will pay for the necessary infrastructure improvements to meet demand in the future.
where is the percentage from wind? Plus most solar electricity generation is by homeowners and much of it never gets to the grid ..... So you have no idea how much is produced from solar...... So thanks for the misleading pointless info
@@nc3826 The Report was for Duke Energy, that's what Duke provided, Duke does not own windfarms I guess. There is a listing for "purchased" energy but no breakdown on what generated it. Keep in mind, Duke Energy has been fighting tooth and nail to keep it's coal fired powerplants operating
@@linusa2996 'in 2022, Duke Energy, through its nonregulated direct subsidiary Cinergy Corp., became one of two offshore wind lessees for the Carolina Long Bay area east of Wilmington, N.C., an area that could support the development of up to 1.6 GW of offshore wind, enough to power nearly 375,000 homes' I'm not accusing you of making anything up but nothing makes sense about it especially your motive but thanks for the reply and have a nice day
I do really enjoy this episode, but I agree with the people saying that we WANT the details. It's why I'm here. Lot of surface level (and misinformed) takes on the internet, so if there's a true expert with deep knowledge, I'd rather hear from them and then have that explained to me through follow up questions :p. That said, tons of ground covered here, feels like you could do a recurring series covering any and all of these topics haha.
It is one thing to think of the impact on grids that are currently handling their loads, but what about areas that already have rolling blackouts? If they cannot even handle the normal usage, without the large EV load increase, then what will need to happen to get these areas where they need to be?
Argonne National Laboratory found that the 2.1 million EVs on U.S. roads in 2021 used less than 0.2% of the 3,930 trillion watt hours of power consumed overall that year. Electrifying the world’s vehicle fleet would account for 15-21 percent of global electricity demand in 2050, while global clean electricity supply is forecast to outpace electricity demand even when aggressive EV adoption is assumed.
True. Electrifying anything (cars, buildings, industry) will take more power and hence investment in the grid. The benefit for most vehicles is that they sit parked for much of the day, meaning they can recharge when the electricity isn't in high demand.
What is needed is groups like Out of Spec to stop the MW fast charger hype. Continuing to make everyone think that's what is needed is a disservice. 90%+ of everyone's charging needs can be met with level 1, 120V supply. The key is getting people to understand the benefits of EVs come from low and slow home charging. The grid has plenty of capacity now, and it can be assured via insentivised off-peak rates. If everyone is going to MW charge at fast chargers, the grid will collapse. Please stop the hype!
It is very important to communicate with the customer the advantages of driving an EV, including easy home charging, including using120V cordset (matched with a new, high-quality outlet). We've used 120V at home for charging for many years. It works great. Is it for everyone in every situation? No. It's a great start though. A dedicated (and simple/reliable) 240V charging station station is even better. Fast charging should be thought of as for those who need it (the garageless, etc.) as part of the solution, not the whole single solution. It's not 1:1 to gas stations.
@scramboleer I certainly never meant that, but even with level 2 charging low, slow, off-peak is best. You can always reduce the charge rate over a longer time. My point was that most of the time, people will have more than enough time to charge even at level 1. However, the hype that we need EVs that charge in 5 minutes using MW loads is absurd and negates the value of driving EVs.
How stupid one has to be not to understand that in order to reduce greenhouse gases it is necessary to reduce the amount of fossil fuels being burned? Switching to electric propulsion will never produce any material reduction in CO2 emissions for two simple reasons 1. Transportation consumes only about 20% of energy globally, with cars accouting for about half of that. This means replacing ALL ICE cars tomorrow with EVs will only get rid of a small fraction of of CO2 emissions, because 2. Most of electricity in US, China and Europe is generated by burning fossil fuels. In 1973 38% of electricity globally was generated by burning coal. In 2019, after spending trillions on green energy, only 37% of electricity was generated by burning coal. The only problem EVs solve is air pollution in Beijing.
Apartment/condo residents is easy - install L1 outlets everywhere. Turn them off and on centralised when electricity is cheap. 16 amps x120V, 240 V is even better (same wire sizes). Whoever needs bigger needs - supercharging. increase rent/condo fees with 10 bucks per month and you are done. Same chargers in the parks, malls, parking lots, cinemas. Also Hydro can provide customer switches controlled by them and doing rolling "blackouts" according to loads block by block.
The solutions are simple. First off, level 2 destination charging, and second off, peak shaving. All of this, depends on the ability to charge during day. If you were to connect a volt meter to the mains, and graph voltage fluctuations throughout the day, you would notice that it fluctuates by quite a few volts. At my house, I can get as low as 236 volts, or as high as 245 volts. A threshold can be set, where if the voltage falls below a certain voltage, the car stops charging. If doing the "EVtoG" thing, then, a low threshold could trigger the car to send power back to the grid. If you do send back, only allow the grid to use ~20% of capacity, between 60 and 80% state of charge, to avoid accelerated degradation of the battery. At my house, I would set the threshold voltage to 241.8 as the minimum to charge, below that, it won't charge. The reason day charging is important, is because early in the morning, all the roof-top solar generates close to full power, but air conditioning systems aren't drawing much, grid voltage is at its highest. That's a perfect time for cars to charge. By noon, air conditioning demand is starting to come up, but, roof-top solar is producing full rated power. By evening, that's when it gets tricky...Solar power is starting to taper off, but air conditioning is at its highest demand. Grid voltage naturally goes down. If your car has the ability to send back to the grid, that's the time! This also works ideal for wind, which can hit at any time. Such a system adapts in real time, no telecommunication necessary, there's no way your system can be "hacked". You can charge your car on virtually 100% renewable energy, with no need for any "blockchain" subscription, as long as it's renewable energy pushing the grid voltage above nominal.
I think dual metering or smart metering will need to become the norm for residential homes. Either charge a customer a demand price if they're charging during peak times, or control the EV specific meter/circuit to only be live when the grid has low enough demand. That's how my parents house is set up. They have a controlled 2nd meter that's on between 11pm-7am and is only billed 3¢/KWH. Costs next to nothing to charge. That way utilities "shouldn't" have to punish responsible or non-EV owners by raising base rates.
I am happy that you are talking about future charging but you spent an hour without any facts. 86% of Ev's are charged at home over night. 95% of all trips are less than 300 miles. At night most businesses and government entities are closed. Electric consumption from 11pm to 6am is less than half the day time usage. The only areas that will need additional infrastructure is congested cities where people cannot park on their property. The UK is solving this problem by businesses installing level 2 chargers at work charging minimal fees. Keep in mind that those people only need to charge 1-2 times a week. Happy charging.
I worked for a utility in the DFW area for 35 years starting in 1980. Do you know that we did not always have air conditioning in our homes and offices? How on earth did the grid grow to accommodate the tremendous load associated with air conditioning? It's called planning. As far as I know, every utility has a planning department.
I found it interesting there was no mention of home smart chargers. I guess technically you could do the same thing by leveraging the car software and Internet connection, but in the UK, new legislation means all new Level 2 home charger installs need to be Internet connected smart chargers. The advantage (which wasn't mentioned here) being that there is a huge benefit to being able to *turn down* the charging of thousands of vehicles for a few minutes. For example, if you want to spin up a new power source which takes several minutes to come online, the grid controller can remotely send out a signal to turn each smart charger down by 1-2 kW until that new power source spools up. Of course, each smart charge must come with an override button if you need to maximise your overnight charge. So 99% or more people with home smart chargers will be helping to reduce the need for additional emergency baseload that is otherwise dumped.
Dan clearly walks his talk by choosing small electric vehicles, E cargo bike and public transportation. He seems also to be a realist, knowing that SUVs and pickups even though they use much more energy, are popular in the US and doesn’t criticize people who choose them even if they’re moving one person and no cargo. We need more people in power with this kind of awareness.
To install a residential EV charger you can get a 30% tax credit up to $1,000 and to install a commercial EV charger the company can get a $30,000 tax credit so the government is paying part of the cost to make it easier !
FYI there are already grid scale batteries that do from and to grid every day. Depending on how economical V2G and battery grid storage are to a utility, one may supersede the other. We may not end up with both.
Most analyses fail to take into account the amount of electricity that goes into refining oil into fuel, you really have to subtract that from the amount of energy consumed by EV’s. Then there is the Solar-electric Aptera with very minimal impact on the grid.
Francie called EPRI a "non-biased" source. IIRC, EPRI is funded by electric utility companies. Nothing wrong with that, but their research goals are to help the utilities.
News flash George: we need the utilities. They need us. What we DON'T need is our Tax $$$ being handed out to every green program that cannot sustain itself without these handouts.
V2G sounds great theoretically. But it has numerous issues, mostly dealing with logistics. It's not just a battery chemistry issue. Energy arbitrage. makes much more sense from battery swapping stations. Which is already being done in China.
The reality is that there are tons of different utilities out there. Most will likely adapt well. However, there are several are so poorly run that they currently threaten the grid where they are located. Specifically, in order to protect the Western Grid, Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E), has to have rolling blackouts to keep from crashing it. Even in "low usage" hours we have had these in the last year. I have solar panels and battery backup size for a L2 charger, so I am not affected to much, but my neighbors certainly are. And the State of California makes it hard for PG&E to grow their capacity to meet the demand. And then they went to "Net Metering 3" (NM3) last year to dis-incentivizing people from putting in solar panels. It effectively means that during the daylight hours, you have to PAY PG&E to take your electricity. And PG&E is fighting me from expanding my battery capacity. It makes no sense. I am grandfathered in to not have to pay the NM3 fees, and my increase in batteries would both lower the excess electricity at peak production and increase the supply during high demand. But PG&E hates me being a mini-utility.
Net metering at retail electric rates needs to be a federal mandate. We need to allow those with financial ability to supplement green energy to do so.
The reality is net metering is always counterproductive. One example is that it disincentivizes energy storage, which is vital to balance the grid efficiently. Plus it shifted the additional cost from the entitled rich to the poor. RIP net metering..... Fair supply and demand pricing needs to replace it...
In the long run, and hopefully beginning ASAP, this country is going to need a complete reconceptualization of what a grid is and what an electric utility is. The old models are a major drag on the energy transition. The new technologies allow for completely new approaches.
Given the current consumption of EVs in commercial and passenger cars and the consumption over total miles driven, it amounts to less than 10% of the total energy consumed in the United States. Look at EV kWh/M, the total miles driven by all US commercial and passenger vehicles, and the Total energy consumed in the United States. I'm not convinced it will take 30-40% more production to meet demand.
Range anxiety is still one of the holdbacks for people buying an EV. The non-Tesla, EV chargers have a bit of an unreliability reputation. iI’s not good if an EV driver is unsure that the charger they’re headed for will work when they get there. Are there any strategies in place to improve the reliability of the chargers?
No range anxiety with Plug In Hybrids. Plug in to 120 VAC overnight and drive 40 - 50 miles. But when you want to do a road trip fill up the tank, get great fuel economy, and enjoy a worry free vacation. I used to own a Bolt. I waited too long to buy a Volt which is a PIH, and let the dealer talk me into the Bolt EV. What was I thinking?
Seattle City Light gets 86% from hydro, 5% wind, 5% nuclear, 1% BioGas. We do NOT have time-of-day based rates. Question: Is hydro easily moderated by current load - so that time of day electric rates are unimportant for balancing load each day?
Every form of electricity generation has pros and cons (some more than others). Dams obviously impact the local environment including fish migration, but hydro is one of the most flexible forms of power generation as you can turn a knob and quickly gain more power. Other forms of generation (nuclear, coal, natural gas) can't react quickly (if much at all) to changing electricity demand. Those are better for baseload power - running more or less consant.
Fantastic interview and information. I'm applying for a job with a company planning to enter the public charging space, so this discussion was perfect, should I land the job. Thank you. I subscribe to the channel and have watched a bunch of the podcast and review episodes. SoCalFreddy
Specific school bus is such a funny concept to me. Here a bus is a bus. The county is responsible all bus routes and they use regular buses. The school routes are usually part of the regular service anyway, but with different times during the school year to fit the school hours.
A School bus here is Yellow and has extra strength. It picks up and returns children during set periods, weekdays. The rest of the time, they are parked (excluding special events). A city bus is built completely different. It is driven hard (jack rabbit start/stops) to keep a precise time schedule. I have ridden the local EV bus. The problem is really $$$$$. More battery is not the answer. Stopping the bus to recharge means there is a replacement needed to keep the schedule.
@@steveurbach3093 Many cities in Norway use only electric buses and they work fine for the most part. Been some issues with range and charging when it got really cold for a while. Like -20C cold. Probably going to be some demand for compensation from the public transport company to the fleet provider as they didn't fulfill the contract. Public transportation is paid for by the county. Local municipal schools just use those. Around here they are not city buses that can't go faster than 70kmh, but regular sturdy ones with seat belts and no standing allowed. If its rural enough they use taxi to pick up kids with to far to walk/bike. The law says kids have to walk/bike up to 2km for 1st grade (6 yo) and 4km for 2nd to 10th grade, above this you have the right to transportation. For age 16-20 there is a youth ticket in my county for ~38$ a month with unlimited use. Students 20-29 years old get -40% on regular prices. Pricing is a bit complicated as the county is divided into zones and you pay for number of zones you cross. 180 days ticket for single zone is roughly 220$ for students.
@@Gazer75 Trolley busses exist. Modern ones have small batteries to deal with detours. My city tore out the last of the wires like 30 years ago now though.
I live along the Columbia river in Umatilla county in Oregon and people that complain about EV's don't say anything about all the server farms that are being built all over the place that use electricity. We have an 11,000 watt solar system on our house that output's enough electricity to run our all electric house and power our EV all year long and instead of buying batteries we are on a grid tied system where our utility is our battery and the way it works is we have an account and during the summer time when we generate more than what we use our meter runs backwards and we feed electricity into the utility and we accrue credit for that then in the winter time like now we can draw on that credit against what we draw from the utility to make up the shortfall on what we don't generate so we end up with no electric bill and we help the grid but nobody talk's about that they just complain about over loading the grid. And by the way our utility is customer owned ! Also we got a 30% tax credit on the purchase of our solar system and EV !
I pay my taxes like everybody else I just decided to use some of my tax money to pay for a solar system and an EV instead of it going to pay for some BULL SHIT program that doesn't benefit any body also during the summer time when I generate more than I can use it goes back in to the grid for other people to use. It also relieves some of the load on the grid and help's with environment so what are you doing to help the environment?@@morbward8281
As a recently retired power generation Electrical Engineer who has worked for AEP, Square D, T&B, Leviton, and for the last 15 years in standby power generation and grid paralleling with Cummins I found the eRoadMap to be a very good tool as we launch *Drive Electric Arizona* . From the map, I noticed the utilities do not address the issue of DC warehouse electrical needs for companies like Walmart and Amazon along with other eDelivery services like FedEx, UPS, and USPS outside of California. As an example, the transportation routes along Interstates 8,10 and 60 have weak grids and show no future expansion on the eRoadMap. Plus the utility addresses the needs of data centers and chip manufacturers faster than the mentioned delivery services. Many proposed warehouses that wanted to add EV charging never happened because the utility jumped on the 1-GW power needs by TSMC, Azure, Iron Mountain, Intel, Aligned Energy, and Stream in West Phoenix and told the warehouses it could take a few years to answer their needs. Warehouses can be built from dirt to completion in 9 months and can't wait three years.
We found it very easy to provide EV charging at a condominium and it only cost $2500 to support 5 EVs. You simply install a commercial charger that directly bills the user for electricity. You must establish a schedule of when each person can charge. Most of us drive under 50 miles/day so no big deal. We chose a parking spot very close to power source. Further away, electrical work can add $500, 1000, or more.
Is the Regulators causing infrastructure overload (Expensive and difficult permitting) causing larger sites to build out (1 set efforts per location) vs lots of small distributed all over (stores and work).
The grid operators in Europe are also highly regulated btw. I do believe most of them are publicly owned, at least the TSOs. I can't speak for Europe as a whole, but here in Norway grid operation is a separate thing from production and sale of electricity, and highly regulated. All may be owned by the same parent company, which is mostly publicly owned. There are around 95 grid operators total. Customers pay one fee per kWh for electricity, which they can buy from any seller. Then there is a fee per kWh for grid use + a peak power fee. The grid fee is paid to the local grid operator and varies depending on their budget.
Great video. An interesting development is local Co-ops are banding together to build massive solar battery farm. I'm expecting the co-ops will do fine with electrification.
Yes, Incentivize for flexible Level 2 charging with variable current - reflect this with an adjusted bill, or simply supply the smart (connected) EVSE.. I'm comfortable having the utility schedule this out, not like they're hacking into my personal phone.
I didn't have an hour to watch this, hopefully I can later this week. Just wanted to let you know what I tell people who claim the grid can't handle EVs. I simply point out the obvious of how much less load will be on the grid. If you consider what it takes to drill for oil, transport it, refine it, transport it at least one more time, and pump it into a cat it's easy to see that just charging up the car takes so much less electricity.
I don't see 'bi-directional charging' for supporting the grid being beneficial whatsoever to the private EV owner. First, because of charge cycles being used up by the grid at the EV owners expense. Also you don't have to have a pregnancy in the home to be inconvenienced by unexpectedly having say, 50 percent charge level rather than the 80 you had planned for that time to make an important trip.
There are ~3,300 utilities across the U.S. Some make more money by selling more electricity. Some don't but are incentivized in other ways, like earning a return based on how much the invest in the grid and even how much electricity their energy efficiency programs save. And some are non-profits, owned by the citizens of their local area, whether that's urban or rural. It all depends.
The podcast was full of great information. The problem was the overall subject matter was far too broad, to do any of the specific subject matters justice. And in some cases It even ended up being misleading. For example to paraphrase one of the questions, how much more do we need from our grid to handle EV charging? And the answer was an additional 30 to 40%. Is that just based on an increased electrical load which, would then require a proportional increase in the grid? So my question is how does that take into account the fact that most EV charging can be done during off peak hours? That doesn't even take into account V2G. Electric generation will clearly have to increase substantially, but it's far less clear how much greater capacity we need for the grid? So I hope future podcasts will have a narrower focus with more in-depth explanations. Or as Albert would say, "information is not knowledge."
You're right. We decided to start off at a high level with this one. Don't want to get too technical too quickly if most folks aren't interested. Happy to be invited back though.
Regarding the ~35% increase in grid load, those are gross numbers to give an idea of how much load this is without any managed charging or load shifting. You're right, with managed charging, this shifts the EV charging load to times of otherwise low electricity demand. This means that for minimal investment in the grid, more energy can flow into the EV using roughly the same investment. Also, none of this is going to happen overnight. It takes about 16-17 years for the U.S. automotive fleet to turnover. This gives time for investment in the grid, when and where needed.
@@scramboleer 1st the increase in grid's load is a probabilistic estimate. Which is not what a gross figure or number is. For example a gross income figure is not supposed to be an estimate. Thank you for mentioning that load shifting was not part of the calculations. But that's not the only major factor that can cause a major variance. So for it to have any use or validity at least the basic premises for how it was derived is required. Such as a link. Curious about the criteria. Just curious is this Dan the interviewee? If it is I hope you come back when you get a chance and explain some of these factors in more detail.
Utilities exist to serve the load so asking what they think about EVs pro or con is the wrong question. Utilities cannot be pro or con. They exist to provide the services that their customers desire or require.
Btw, recent papers indicate that 30% of the US transmission lines need to be replaced in the next 10 years. That's on top of the 300% over 30 years. It does not include the additional increase required for the additional power needed due to other electrical demands from gas appliances converting to electricity
IMO, finding solutions for apartment and condo dwellers that *do* have a reserved parking spot needs to take priority over ones that don't. I say this because it is an easier problem to solve, but still has difficult economics. There is a need for technical solutions to reduce installation cost, such as monitoring building load and allocating excess capacity to EVSEs. Such a solution could negate the need for an expensive service upgrade. Also there needs to be a way to expedite permitting, and stop foot dragging by HOAs and landlords. EPRI should be in a good position to help find solutions to these problems.
The net cost is actually less overall. If it was all done at once for communal parking. But a retrofit is much more complex, since ICEV owners understandably don't want to pay for something they're not going to be using. But once you reach about 25% EV penetration, it becomes doable for EV owners to share the cost initially, including the additional wiring for all the parking spaces. And then get paid back, as new EVSE.get installed. You could even charge the late comers an additional fee, which would incentivize some of the ICEV owners to pay for the infrastructure initially which would reduce the initial average cost. Reserved parking is nice to have when you are doing this, but it's not a requirement. For example delegating EV only sections. Including intelligent charging options, which assign electricity charges for billing. And there are numerous other options that are currently on the market that address communal parking issues. Bureaucracy always adds a level of complexity and cost. And this is definitely a form of bureaucracy. And I guess the EPRI can help a contractor deal with the complexity?
Charging at existing multi-use dwellings whether it's a condo, apartment building, townhouse, etc. is tough (largely cost plus the reality of where all the needed pieces are located). It's challenging. Different local and state governments as well as utilities have tried various incentive programs, but just like remodeling a house, retrofitting an existing parking area for EV charging can be costly. In other parts of the world, countries have offered solutions like local fast charging hubs which is one possible solution, but not as customer or grid friendly as low power Level 2 charging at places were cars sit parked for long periods of time. Of course, if new construction includes pre-wiring, conduit, etc., that's a different story.
In France, where I live, there is a law obliging landlords, HOAs and the like, to authorize the installation of chargers on reserved parking spots... at the cost of the tenant, though. But they can't deny a tenant the right to install a charger, and have to supply the connection to the grid.
@@nc3826 Battery swapping has been tried several times (by Renault/Nissan, by Tesla, ...) and failed. Nio is doing it presently in China, but it is hard to figure out how it is doing. I have read comments going both ways. Chinese cities are putting literally millions of charging points along their streets, and some cities in Europe are starting to do it.
Elitist Dreamers, takes me 3 minutes to refuel my 30 mpg ice. No Waiting, no range anxiety, no destroying the evironment with a dead battery in 10yrs, for $20,000, No HIGH insurance cost because of accidents, no dangerous Battery fires. The Green house released by EV's is HUGE! Lie-Electric Cars have been around BEFORE ICE cars. .
The article did not make much mention about the cost to the utility for electricity. Say a utility has a solar farm and a wind farm. There are times when demand is low and low cost energy is abundant. Now have a very cold and still night. No solar and no wind energy. Now where does the utility get power? With the gid, they bid with other utilities for capacity from their neighbors, at often very high surge demand prices. Some utilities instead of selling at a massive loss, opt out, or are unable to secure surge capacity at any cost, and have rolling blackouts instead. Getting power from hydroelectric becomes limited when the pool levels become very low. Add the need for electric charging to be reliable, then the model breaks down. Limited natural gas, and even more limited capacity from diesel and coal is very expensive to start up and shutdown for intermittent use to meet demand. No utility wants to pay for upkeep of surge capacity that is rarely used. It's expensive.
There are some large volume low density batter solutions that are going to have to become part of the solution. These aren’t the slick LiIon batteries people are putting in their homes. Undecided RU-vid has some good videos on this.
Lots of public charging providers are pivoting towards onsite battery storage, which allows them to buy power from the grid when it's cheap and sell it to customers when they need it. Thus, charging can be reliable 24/7, even if much of the underlying electricity powering it is intermittent, while also drastically reducing infrastructure costs, since the charging site can function off of a utility connection with much lower power levels than what the cars will be charging at.
Along with what others have said, keep the net metering plans so those homes producing excess can supply back to the grid. Unfortunately, it seems like utility companies are doing away with net metering or making it so low it's not worth it.
Why are EV chargers connected to the grid because you are defeating the purpose of the EV. Using the grid is a cop out. EV are built using fossil fuels. Does EPRI operate Off-Grid if not why.
Because the grids are being updated with more renewables. Also in the future we could use plugged in vehicles to help in high load times so that the power plants can be right sized. Also pawed companies can have massive battery storage solutions that aren’t practical for home. The plants can charge the batteries in low use times and have power for peak times. Lastly we need to think of the users. I have the maximum allowable solar array which basically generates enough electrify for the whole year. I have geothermal and electric water heater and dryer. Basically everything in my home is covered by my solar. I live in upper Midwest and generate almost nothing in the winter. For me to go “off grid” I’d need enough batteries to cover months of use. That’s insane and clearly not doable. Unless you are lucky enough to live in a very sunny and temperate climate year round off grid is not possible.
EVs (90%) and central power plants (40%) are efficient enough that it is a wash, even assuming Coal/gas power and 15% transmission losses (85%) -> 30.6% system efficiency. ICE cars struggle to break 30% efficiency.
