Agreed. I'm a CS:GO fan turned Melee fan, EVERYTIME there is a major in the US players have problem. I don't know, go to Portugal or Spain, that's close enough to the US.
The fact that PP has personal experience with Alan doing shady things in a completely different context feels like concrete confirmation that he had some involvement with SWT getting canned.
(I think when I learned this concept it was explained to me as thinking of circle of concern vs circle of control. As a super casual I'm rooting for y'all!)
@@anachronismic it’s more general but it reminds me of an adapted Roosevelt quote that I keep with me: “Do what you can, where you are, with what you have” The idea being that if you can focus on that you can always improve your situation
Aiden mentioned this on his stream as well but the 'layered' structure of Nintendo is common in Japanese companies. I work for a Japanese headquartered company and it's the same. I'm fluent in Japanese so a lot of the communication from HQ to US subsidiaries goes through me and as such, I'm a bit more familiar with the hows and whys of the structure. Comparing the company I work for to Nintendo is comparing apples to oranges but even then, I think that both PPMD's and Aiden's guesses on the corporate structures are pretty on the mark
This is the best break down I've seen so far. Unless you've worked in a large corporation like Nintendo before, it's hard to grasp how dysfunctional and volatile decision making can be in that kind of environment. It frustrates me how many smash fans think one of the wealthiest global conglomerates is in bed with a relatively miniscule e-sports org.
They only have the right to stop the stream and possibly the prize pool. There is no way they are allowed to stop several people from playing a game under the same roof. There is no copyright infringement of that.
It's still their IP being used and TOs are still being paid for use of the IP through venue fee and perhaps other ways such as sponsors. Nintendo can shut it down legally.
@@cincinnatus86 I guess non-monetised events are probably untouchable though. Seems to me that an event is only at stake when there's a prize or something involved.
@@cincinnatus86 yeah but I can't imagine that ever happens. I also saw Aiden tweet that the larger issue is shutting down the broadcast by itself and that might be the main weapon they use. So for PR purposes or realistic expectations, it might be fair to say they would only shut down streams on majors which would effectively kill them anyway. A bit hard to say.
@@PPMD1 I meant hypothetically. I think they only shut down a broadcast if the stream is ignoring a cease and desist order (lawsuit would follow). I’m curious to see if they would shut down a stream if bracket isn’t being shown. Technically no IP present for them to act on and they would not show up in person.
tl;dr : never work with Nintendo. I quickly realized that in 2008 when trying to organise a big Pokémon tourney. I'm not surprised to see things have not changed after 14 years.
Nintendo said they can't do it, but also that they can do it. But they need a license to do it, unless thay don't. I don't know how they could have been more clear.
My interpretation based on hearing that TOs have been making bank from sponsorships is that VGBC doesn't want to do the Scar plan for SWT because they would somehow negatively affect their Papa John's deal if they had to untimely cut the gameplay.
Hi PP, totally unrelated, but could please do a video on countering aggressive opponents? I suppose it may be a beginner problem, but I do think it would be valuable for most levels of players. Great video btw
I know, I know I've let you down I've been a fool to myself I thought that I could live for no one else But now, through all the hurt and pain It's time for me to respect The ones you love mean more than anything So, with sadness in my heart Feel the best thing I could do Is end it all and leave forever What's done is done, it feels so bad What once was happy now is sad I'll never love again My world is ending I wish that I could turn back time 'Cause now the guilt is all mine Can't live without the trust from those you love I know we can't forget the past You can't forget love and pride Because of that, it's killing me inside It all returns to nothing It all comes tumbling down Tumbling down, tumbling down It all returns to nothing I just keep letting me down Letting me down, letting me down In my heart of hearts I know that I could never love again I've lost everything, everything Everything that matters to me matters in this world I wish that I could turn back time 'Cause now the guilt is all mine Can't live without the trust from those you love I know we can't forget the past You can't forget love and pride Because of that, it's killing me inside It all returns to nothing It just keeps tumbling down Tumbling down, tumbling down It all returns to nothing I just keep letting me down Letting me down, letting me down It all returns to nothing It just keeps tumbling down Tumbling down, tumbling down It all returns to nothing I just keep letting me down Letting me down, letting me down Ah, ah, ah, ah Tumbling down Tumbling down Tumbling down Ah, ah, ah, ah Letting me down Letting me down Letting me down Ah, ah, ah, ah Tumbling down Tumbling down Tumbling down Ah, ah, ah, ah Letting me down Letting me down Letting me down
We had such a good thing going this year. Nintendo could have done nothing (making no expenses at all) and have a better reputation to boot. This feels like an oppression ;-;
Company that's been around since the 80s and is one of the most if not most popular brands in the world but doesn't make decisions well because "my smash bros canceled"
In all seriousness Nintendo is known for being a mess internally. Nintendo is built on internal competition which breeds innovation but, stifiles communication. They've made it work, but it makes collaboration with other companies a nightmare
Why is no one talking about forcing a court case? Maybe not with this event but if each TO creates an LLC, if they are taken to court, isn't the liability for payment through the LLC (for which you have liability insurance) and not the individual? I think our strongest weapon is to get the C&D and immediately file in a district that is sympathetic to our cause.
Forcing a court case would likely turn into a war of attrition that we would lose easily and every time while not making a dent on nintendo. I'd assume that everytime we got sued the premium would increase. And you bet your ass they would sue everytime if they had to. PR is the only way we can attack them.
@@fasagalag are you just talking out of your ass on this? If a TO files a suit and brings Nintendo to court, how does it become a war of attrition? Is Nintendo able to stall for an indefinite period of time before they actually go to court? This may be my ignorance here, but I feel like most people hand wave the legal route because they are just assuming Nintendo automatically wins. What if we got support from larger groups that are interested in limiting the power of corporations when it comes to IP law? Setting a strong precedent in their favor would be extremely valuable.
@@forrestsalamida3721 because laws aren't adapted to favor these kinds of events. They're built to protect companies. The whole fiasco with the modded emulators showed me that. They also have GREAT lawyers. There is no amount of sympathy in any district that can beat those odds.
@@forrestsalamida3721 it will always boil down to 2 things: 1) smash is their property and they get to choose who uses their product and who doesn't according to their user agreement. 2) the only way to make events legal is to prove without a shadow of a doubt that it has zero correlation in dealing with their sales and public image. If it even affects it slightly, we would lose that battle.
Does stealing the source code to make a counterfeit product actually work as a solution though? That seems a more drastic measure than simply "keep playing melee" and maybe unnecessary too.
There's actually a legal way to do this called Clean Room Design. You have two separate groups one reads the source code and creates specifications to recreate the experience (think frame data, hit boxes, physics). Then a group that has never seen the source code (this group is the clean room) makes a product to those specifications. This has legal precedent and may not even be necessary, but it is considered best practice for ripping off someone else's design.
There's a lot of expenses involved, but IS there a legal route here? I don't think the control companies have over tournaments has been fully challenged in court, like the law is in their favor but a judge might make a ruling in our favor here given how drastically this affects peoples' livelihoods
Nintendo would crush us if it ever went to court. It would literally be a 100:0 matchup, even without taking into consideration the expenses. Worst case scenario, they would bypass smash players entirely and go straight to streaming services and forbid them from streaming smash-related content without permission.
@@Sapreme I think there's more factors to it than that, a lot of companies are scared to even test the legality of this sort of thing I feel like, like they'd probably win but the risk if they lose is pretty devastating
not doubting that nintendo couldn't absolutely nuke us from orbit, but also nobody has ever challenged it lmao mostly because Nintendo is the only company who has the gall to stop tournaments and stifle THEIR OWN COMMUNITY
@@SuperAmazingJared It would be an open and shut case. Plenty of other major video games already require lisencing to be allowed to stream their content and host tournaments. Nintendo could legally shut down every major tournament if they wanted to any time they wanted to, and have already done so to SWT. The fact that they usuallu never do is because its mutually beneficial to everyone to not do anything.
9:28 "That's probably why it's happening now, probably-" I've heard this sentiment echoed by a lot of top players But it always has that asterisk Probably. Probably? It feels like y'all are giving Nintendo leeway, making excuses, applying some humanity to them that they've almost never shown in the past. Given what actually happened and how it turned out, there are ppl who will be DESTITUTE because of these decisions. Now SWT is gone, and it's just Panda. I understand it's just a guessing game But damn if it doesn't feel like Nintendo + Panda purposely lured SWT to overextend, and then decapitated at the moment when it would most hurt the TO's who ran it. And that's sabotage. Like That's malicious intent, and I feel like no one's even really talking about the possible that it could've been on purpose. Maybe I'm just paranoid But with the players be CONTRACTED to show @ Panda Cup once they've signed up... idkidkidk. It just smells of fishyness and foul play. This shit cost ppl hundreds of dollars, & I really don't think Nintendo deserves the benifit of the doubt given their history with us.
This would make zero sense. Nintendo have been partnered with panda way after, and also they did nothing during the actual scandals and it would make no sense for them to do something now years after the people involved have been permabanned from events. Nintendo has been hostile to competitive smash since the MLG days
@@tilt9808 I don't think Nintendo would come out and say "Fuck the Smash Pedos and their tournaments." So they go the legal route. It's easier and they don't get sued for defamation. And I sure don't think Panda is calling the shots for Nintendo. I think it's likely the Panda CEO got wind of what was going down and started using it as leverage and Nintendo probably isn't happy with that either. You ever wonder why kids shows that are really good like Justice League Unlimited, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Teen Titans get canceled at the height of their popularity? It's because adults are watching. And when kids and adults mix bad shit happens. The Smash community made their bed and now they have to lie in it. I bet Nintendo wanted to cancel the Panda Cup too. However they have a contract with Panda that they have to fufill. I would bet my car Panda Cup is going to be a one time thing. They are going to fulfill their contract and then begin to kill the Smash pro community dead as donuts.
@@the_sixxness Nintendo has been trying to shut down competitive smash since the beginning, Brawl in itself 20 years ago was an attempt at that and their views (or at least those from Nintendo of Japan) haven't much evolved since. You can believe that the numerous allegations are the reason official tourneys aren't a thing, but stuff like PM, Slippi and mods have probably had a bigger impact on Nintendo's viewpoint.
@@the_sixxness You're just creating a cospiracy theory, the allegations happened mid 2020 and the panda partnership started late 2021. This is also just not realistic to how companies act. This behavior does however match what we have expected from nintendo through the entire history of competitive smash
@@tilt9808 If you got the Panda CEO running around giving out insider information im sure once it got back to Nintendo they decided they were done. Working with the unprofessional pro Smash community just isn't worth it. Especially after the pedophiles had already gave the community a black eye.
The most important fact is that Project M needs to return to events and we need to stop working with Nintendo. What annoys me in all of this is that we keep coming to Melee and Ultimate's defense, and we keep being cast aside.
When you say Project M do you mean P+ , it's successor? In my opinion P+ should get rid of it's Nintendo IP and become it's own game. People say that kinda stuff about Melee, but I feel like it wouldn't work. P+ on the other hand is already basically its own game.
@@nahometesfay1112 I say Project M because I include any variant of it. As ex PMDT, I don't wish to dictate what the comminity does. And IMO, we should not have to modify anything. Modding should be immune to court procedings. The law needs to protect fanwork, and it's time for Smashers to help.
