Pastors: Please Stop Using This Popular (and Unbiblical) Analogy. 

That last part is what I see a whole lot of. People believing they are opposed to Christianity, but what they are opposing a lot of times isn't Christianity at all.

You have someone in the comments impersonating you.

Thanks for doing this video. I’ve never heard this analogy but I have not been to. Church in years. Analogy’s. B s surveys. Meant to manipulate congregations through guilt and emotions

Are all reasons why people leave and can’t swallow the b s

Melissa Could you tell me what bible you use. I'm interested because when I was much younger and studying to be a minister I came across something interesting in regards to the expulsion from Eden. Understanding that the different denominations.inations of Christianity have slight differences I'm curious as to what you may have read about it. Thank you

AMEN!

And of course you got the correct version right?

If you get the Gospel wrong, it doesn’t matter how much you know about the rest of the Bible.

​@@user-fc2zb9po8tit's called discernment.

@@user-fc2zb9po8tI guess you do!

Because they’re unqualified to be pastors

and there it is, drop the mic and walk off brother

Amen! Amen! That verse is SO valuable.

Thank you, Melissa! That was a great explanation!

Didn't Jesus ALSO tell his disciples "I do nothing of myself" and "please take this bitter cup away, but not MY will, but YOUR will be done"?

@@joharrison6014 LOL. Pretty much proves Jesus is God, doesn't it?

But the intent of the story was not to communicate the whole gamut of redemptive truth. In fact, many parables in the Bible, if over-interpreted, would appear flawed.

@@peterpulpitpounder It only takes surface level interpretation to see the many flaws of the story. It misrepresents Gods character. A good allegory can be used to effectively communicate truth, but this just isn’t a good one.

@@kamarwashington The story is actually a true account of an event that took place in back in 1937, and the only "point" that this story has been used to communicate is that Jesus was sacrificed to save a lost and dying world. That's it. That's the premise. The story has never been used to communicate the finer points of biblical soteriology. In fact, there are some parables in the Bible, that if pushed too hard, quickly become poor analogies of biblical truth. But they aren't designed to be dissected, torn apart and over-interpreted. There is a central truth to be gleaned and appreciated. That's what being done to this story, in my opinion. No, it's not a perfect illustration for every biblical truth. But it does speak of the sacrifice of one, for the saving of many. That certainly a good and biblical thought.

@@peterpulpitpounder There are better ways to make the point.

​@@kamarwashington It's a real-life story that has only been used to communicate the idea that one person was sacrificed for the sake of others (Jesus for the sake of the world). That's how people have used the story, and that's the central premise that has been articulated. No, the father in the earthy narrative does not accurately communicate every single dimension of God's character. That's taking the story and its application way beyond how the story has been typically applied. And the argument is that this story should stop being used. Um, my argument is that the average person is not thinking in any way like some career apologist, and is ONLY appreciating the idea that God loves me, that God sent His Son into the world for me, and that Jesus died that I might live. They aren't thinking about how all the details of the story fail to line up with all the finer points of theology. Has anyone who has ever heard this story used in a sermon actually been influenced to embrace theological heresy? Only God knows, but I doubt it. A choice was made to sacrifice one person, for the sake of many. That is the central point to be appreciated. Hey, I've got a question for you. In Luke 20:13, where the vineyard owner says, "What am I going to do?" If the vineyard owner represents God the Father, does this mean that God gets unduly flustered and doesn't necessarily know what to do next? Does this mean that God sometimes acts in desperation? And in the parable, the vineyard owns says, 'Maybe, just maybe they will listen to my son." Um, does this mean that God doesn't know what the future holds, or how His created beings are going to act? Wait, am I making too much of these small details? :)

Yes! Theology is so necessary for growth in Christian faith.

honestly this is why reading the bible thoroughly with theologian's explanations and cross references is incredibly important. the people that made up this analogy obviously don't know what "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" means or what it references to. if you don't know what this means, i can easily see how you could fall into the trap of thinking there's some disconnect between Jesus and The Father, when in reality there is no disconnect.

@@merchrich9758 Yes 🙌 👏 Jesus referencing Psalm 22:1 ♥️

So true

Reading the Bible the other day, my blood was practically boiling over what Christ suffered: it was decided He would be crucified - we know that. But, first? First, scourge this innocent lamb! How evil/ cruel man can be.😢

The devil has blinded them so they should not understand.. 2 Cor 4:4 :(

If somebody said an MCU character had genuine existence in the real world, they would be committed, I hope. A fanboy's "rationalization" of a mind-melded trio would be part of imaginative play or discussion. If anything, most comic nerds know better than the average person how completely impossible psi powers actually are. Religious believers insist the gospels aren't fiction, which means, for a start, that they need to show a mechanism for telepathy, among other things.

@@jancerny8109 You missed my point entirely, but that's ok. I don't have the time or patience to debate with you, we can just respectfully agree to disagree. God bless you.

Well put

@@jancerny8109 It's all about understanding things properly. You're assuming you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospels are fiction. There's a mechanism and metrics to understanding anything in this world including ideas, and you don't even have to have telepathy.

Same!!!

Yes, me too.

Loved that explanation - had never heard of it! Praise God!

Same!

I know! I wish I had her as a teacher in school.

Same.. I’m 51

If you want to get "technical", which is what Melissa has done to this story, be it right or wrong, it is theologically inaccurate to say that "God died for us." God can't die. God is eternal. It is an impossibility for God to die. If God died He would cease to be God. Yes, the human element of the person of Jesus Christ died, but not His divinity. Just saying. :)

@@peterpulpitpounder God can do WHATEVER HE WANTS….including incarnating a human body and rising from the dead. You are thinking in very restrictive terms of the human existence…not like God.

@@raevj Oh, and I agree with you that God can do anything. But, yet again, if we are going to get "technical" about this, God can't do just "anything". He can't sin, or lose His memory, or sleep, or forget, or fail to keep His promises, or misjudge something, or overbake one of his angels he's got cooking in the oven, etc. :)

@@peterpulpitpounderRight… which is why he incarnated into human flesh and suffered all the way to the point in which the Romans would have forced his death (breaking his legs) before “Giving up his spirit”. His fleshly body suffered and died, fully under his control. We might be guilty of being the reason he died, for wanting him on the cross, and cheering on his death, but God ultimately had the control and did this willingly, not forced.

@@vinciblegaming6817 Yes, Jesus said that He laid His own life down. Human action and volition played right into the sovereign, all-wise plan of divinity.

Agreed! Never came across this myself but it seems to be another example of bringing God to a mortal imperfect state when he is SO much more than that. So glad we still have many that are setting the record straight with this. God bless!🙌🏻🙌🏻

​​@@hharden4969 Jesus told plenty of analogies (parables) so he seemed to be okay with God being represented by a father figure or other mortal person. And the father wasn't "forced" to kill his son, it just seemed like the best choice. The analogy is supposed to make us think about what a sacrifice it is for a father to give up his son, and that's it. It's still good to discuss doctrine.

@@sarahberknerthe analogy still doesn’t work. It’s heretical

Welcome to Team Jesus!!

@@StevieD1x Thank you!

@@TheRealApocalypseCowboy ✝️🙏🏻

You don't need to be an apostate LDS to appreciate the video.

​@StevieD1x "Mormons" are on "team Jesus." It's kinda right there in the name: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Yes! It's a variant of the trolley car, just with Jesus sprinkled on it.

@@ScriptureShores Right, and I can't help but think that reflecting on the attributes of God would warn a pastor off of this kind of thing. Here's my thinking: if we know that God's nature is the standard of morality, then we should be leery of any example like this that tries to put God in an ethical dilemma. I'm no theologian, but I would argue that by definition, God can't be in an ethical dilemma since that would place morality external to Him, and therefore we need to look for a better and more helpful analogy. This example also seems to fail to account for God's omniscience and sovereignty, as if the Father is somehow caught by surprise that the Son is in a jam and now He's trapped into making a decision with an imperfect outcome either way. I dunno....everything about this feels like it ignores who God actually is--which I guess was Melissa's point--so the moral of the story is don't try to shove God or the Incarnation into a philosophical Gotcha! My $0.02

Bingo

@@Landon_R " caught by surprise that the Son is in a jam and now He's trapped into making a decision with an imperfect outcome either way. I" God is not caught by surprise and always has a solution BUT the enemy of God is not as wise and will sometimes create scenarios to trap believers or even Jesus -- example being is it lawful to pay tribute to Caesar. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus in a dilemma. It failed of course but also gave valuable insight and instruction. Render unto Caesar (or your employer or anyone else to whom you have a duty) that which is Caesar's.

I've heard the analogy before. Two things i would find fault with it. 1.) Makes it sound like the conductor was under duress and didn't know. Isn't the Bible clear it please God to have Christ die for us? The analogy to be correct would be the conductor was pleased to put his son on the tracks..? Isa 53:10) But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 2.) Before the train was coming the father should have put the son on the tracks... Rev 13:8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

All analogies are imperfect.

​@@dand4485+ Yes & a run away train analogy makes it sound like sin is benign, & there is no villain or evil involved. It's just a catastrophe that is completely random & accidental. And no one is at fault. No atonement is necessary, where no one is at fault. This story implicates the father as not being all powerful, & not having control, the Son as having no agency & no power, & the potential victims as being completely innocent. If the story was changed to a train full of guilty convicts, that might make it a bit more Biblical. If the Son was grown, & made a decision WITH the Father, in anticipation of what was going to happen, that might make it a bit more Biblical. And if Spiritual being like demons were included, as agents of temptation, & angels as agents of good & light & servants of God, that might make it a bit more Biblical. 🤷‍♀️

We have to deal with such dilemmas. An allegedly perfect person/standard doesn't do anything except make people feel better about their action or inaction.

@@wet-read No, this always ends in Hegelian dialectic and moral relativism, with grandiose conclusions that sometimes it's ok to kill, to steal, to lie, to cheat .... etc. Than you push it and shift it so far to the point when it becomes legally justified norm (abortion). The Overton window. From this "choosing of the lesser evil" comes "my truth" and "your truth" - both of them killed THE truth - cause real truth is exclusive not inclusive. Since when is lesser evil something good??!! It's not. Evil is evil, and that's why I suggest you not to fall in these kind of semantic traps and logical fallacies. I choose good - I choose God.

@@MultiSky7 That isn't where I'm going with that. I'm simply pointing out that with or without some standard, (allegedly) perfect or otherwise, people still need to make decisions between two or more unpleasant options at times. The decisions might be really difficult or painful. Jesus didn't need to worry about it because he was (allegedly) divine. We are not. So we gotta make decisions and it ain't always easy.

@@wet-read. the words of a not- God "jesus" would be the words of a deceiver or one deceived

Sorry as a father I’d save my son

Acts 1:8 ALMOST says infinity and beyond. Once I heard a very self righteous person say they were so high on Jesus they could fly. I said " That's not flying! That's falling with style!"

Andy, being Andy Griffith? I've heard of some (liberal) churches using the Andy Griffith Show to teach on Sunday evenings. 🤨

@@bonniemoerdyk9809Andy is the kid in Toy Story.

@@bonniemoerdyk9809”too infinity and beyond” is a catch phrase that Buzz Lightyear from the Toy Story movie says.

@@bonniemoerdyk9809The Andy Griffith show did sometimes bother me, when they were in “church” and their “pastor” preached, not on Christ, but on “being kind” etc.

Also the big one Jesus said no one take his life and he has the POWER to lay it down and the POWER to rise it up. It took power for Jesus to lay down his life unlike us.

Great point! So, then, what was sacrificed?

@@Stix_n_Stones His human body that he lived a sinless life in. Romans 12:1 Tells us to present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable service. Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight. Verse 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

@EugeneHolley-rc6ry was the human body God? Will our human bodies still not also die? That verse suggests a works based approach to righteousness. Isn't that problematic for PSA?

@@Stix_n_Stones There is a difference between sanctification and justification.

I have to take issue with one thing you said. You claim that Jesus was not the literal son of David but merely like him in character. However Jesus was of the lineage of King David, a direct descendent of David, hence the title son of David.

Well, you have heard, "An apple never falls far from the tree." or " . . . the spittin image of . . . " or "You are your father's son!!!" How about times those things were said, only to be corrected, "Oh, he's not my dad . . . ahhh, that guy over there is." Ol' wives tales carried through the generations that speak more loudly of the character of a man without even knowing his name or birthright. Jesus gave the sons of Zebedee the name SONS OF THUNDER - thunder has nothing to do with their father's name Zebedee - I'll bet their mama called them sons of something a time or two while they were growing up!!! Jesus called Simon His small rock or pebble, like "a chip off the ol' block' - Peter - had nothing to do with his name or his brother's name or their father . . . Jesus was the cornerstone of the church & Simon was to build HIS church upon THAT rock. Her describing all of this was like the harmony of a symphony to my ears!!!

❤ AMEN! 😊

That’s right! The Lord Jesus willingly laid down His life. John 10:17-18.

Yes!

Its literally the trolly problem

It's like that but that wasn't the point. I see the problems with the analogy but the point is to help us understand that it's the hardest thing in the world for a father to give up his son.

I agree, more like a medical triage emergency situation or Military leaders having to choose who to send to imminent death as a distraction to safe many more. Human decision making to try to weigh bad options!

My family will often say, “That’s heresy, Patrick!!”

I somehow heard that in the Irish accent while reading it! LOL!

lol modalism is a made up word that people use to describe their doctrine 😂😂😂

All words are made up. ​@@intentionallyinpired

Yeeees🤣

Jesus did not come to judge the world. Judgement is after he comes back for us. There was nothing about the boy repenting of the murder in this 'story'. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9. Murderers, rapists, robbers, pedophiles etc. who are repentant, give their lives over totally to Jesus as Lord and Savior, and turn in another direction, are forgiven, not judged by God here on Earth. Praise God!

@@kathytincler2446 You missed the entire point of the story. He's BOTH savior and judge. He's either savior and Lord of all in a person's life or He's NOT LORD AT ALL in a person's life. That's the point. It's a broadside into the lie that He's a feckless savior who allows people to live however they want...

@@GTX1123 Of course He is both but her story misses the salvation message. Her story is similar to the one Melissa just told,,,,.bad theology

The point wasn’t salvation. The point was that God is both Savior and Judge. Just forget the analogies and read your Bible.

@@kathytincler2446 Ummm, no it's correct theology because as Melissa points out, God is not three separate beings.

So which boy would you save, if you could only save one? No analogy is perfect.

@bite-sizedshorts9635 the issue isn't that it's an invalid ethical dilemma for discussion, from a human standpoint. The issue is when you take that dilemma and apply it to God. I feel like maybe you didn't watch the video.

​@bite-sizedshorts9635 real life doesn't work that way, you don't choose, you act on instinct

For you: Matthew 6:24-33, Isaiah 26:3, Proverbs 3:5-6, And considering that God knows your needs, will provide for your needs, but the ACTUALLY important part isn’t this temporary life being “prosperous” (it won’t be!), but eternal life. If you are right with God through faith in the atonement He made for your soul with His own blood, then all the rest of life is just a challenge. It won’t last, but it’s an opportunity to grow in faith and find your stability not in the pay stub but the cross.

I will be praying for you to receive spiritual as well as much needed material help. I know it feels like you are all alone....that's how it feels to all the 1000's of single moms but you are not. I pray that needs be overflowing in your direction. Resources start showing up, a box of needed stuff on your doorstep etc. Replace her fear with the peace, a calmness that only comes from You, Lord. We Thank you that you are always working in our lives, and You are continuing to help Your precious 'ChildofGod' and her children. 💜

I am adding my prayers for you to these others here!

I have heard some Christians give this analogy. It’s awful.

Just because analogies can’t be 100% perfect doesn’t mean we should settle for a heretical analogy

While this is true, why settle for an analogy that borders on heretical when there are so many GOOD analogies out there to use instead?

Yes, Jesus used parables, but never bad analogies to dismantle His and the Father’s character. There’s a huge difference.

Those are the pastors that actually think! It’s a GOOD thing to question doctrines that make no sense.

Why do you agree with penal substitution?

⁠the natural man cannot receive the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned

@@joelrobertson251 because it’s clearly biblical. I understood this as a new believer in the gospel. I don’t question clear teachings in the Bible as it results in deception.

@@Brandaniron , I praise God for your salvation and as a new believer I would encourage you to be a "good Berian". I challenge you to find me a verse in the scriptures that says the Father poured out his wrath on the son while he was on the cross.

It has been used as an analogy of the death of Jesus, involving God.

I know what you mean. I said to God, “I want Jesus in my heart” and I had never heard of the sinner’s prayer. However, I asked in desperation so the Lord answered. I was truly born again, and that was forty-two years ago. PS nobody should ever lead someone in the sinner’s prayer…js!

@ccsapastor Thank God he uses imperfect people and imperfect methods to reach us! I heard a man say people could get saved in a car wreck too. But I wouldn't make a doctrine an out of it!