PENETRATION - SATURATION - COATING, Oiling Wooden Tool Handles 

My ideas about that realm of fact, assumption, assertion, belief, language influence, ego and people's real motivations have evolved a lot over the past 5 years or less. I'm more and more inclined to be about embracing ignorance instead of insecurely grasping at "facts" and the known. There is a great letter by Wendell Berry on something like the wisdom of ignorance that opened some doors for me in that regard. Here it is. landinstitute.org/land-report-article/toward-ignorance-based-world-view/ I have another video recorded that I might publish soon that touches on some of my evolving philosophy. I think a lot of strong assertions and words we like to use that invoke finality, like never, always, fact, proper etc. are used to bolster weak or non-existent arguments and express opinions. Or they are used to not have to make an argument that we really can't actually articulate, because it is based on belief. The more strongly and frequently they are used the more I suspect there may be some bullshit afoot. I've become inclined to think that concepts like fact and certainty and their pursuit and valuation is misguided and much more based on ego, politics, ulterior motives and the deep roots of human insecurity than on the real pursuit of understanding and genuine inquiry. In this way, science seems to operate very much like religion.

I've arrived at very similar questioning to yourself, though I'm currently still operating under the premise that belief/faith/hope is an inherent requirement of the majority of current humans. For most, the pursuance of overarching "answers" to life seems to overshadow the ability to formulate questions that lead to more questions. I always thought that the entire point of inquiry. CS.Lewis in "the abolition of man" makes some interesting observations about the way we learn "fact", interesting enough to prompt me to quit a degree in the sciences, and start the real learning. I've pretty much been exclusively watching your videos for a couple of days now, SO MUCH VALUE! I wanted to weigh in here because I find it interesting that someone clearly driven by similar passions and interests to myself, but with a very different life, have arrived at such similar rumination, particularly how the current scientific community seems an awful lot like an organised religion. Thanks

@@SkillCult this url no longer works

I definitely don’t believe you.

@@SkillCult whenever someone says that "knowledge is power". I usually reply, that "ignorance is bliss". When we strongly belief we know something firmly. We tend to become fixated and closeminded. But when we instead try to "forget what we know" and and acknowledge that there's even more that we don't know. Then we become flexible and openminded. This is what sages practise. Trying to see/percieve something with "fresh eyes", as if seeing it for the first time. It's interesting to note, that it is believed, that the philosopher Sokrates (who was regarded as one of the wisest men on earth), apparently was known for these two quotes. "The only thing I know, is that I don't know anything." And regarding knowledge, "I feel as though, as if I am standing on the beach and have barely glanced a handful of sand grains".

Dang 3 years and no comment first

We have stuff to learn from everywhere I think.

Thank you.

Good story. There is an important difference between respect and absolute deference. Tanning leather is easy to fall in love with. Especially bark tanning. It's simply amazing. I don't play a lot anymore, but I always think I should. I can't send you messages, so if you need my address, you'll have to contact me through the website or something.

I actually have lots of mostly finished vids and some series I'm trying to finish, but things have kept me from finishing stuff I started.

Thanks, I try to be reasonable. I do go on rants once in a while, but we all need to let off the pressure sometimes ;)

If we're both still alive when you figure it out, let me know! Of course I won't believe you anyway lol.

Will do. But I'm a slow learner, so you better plan on hangin in there for awhile.

Awesome comment. Don't apologize to the likes of me for long comments lol. Property sounds great. Oh for a trout stream! Those are hard to come by in these parts. Remember that fruit trees are a great foundation for grafting on new varieties to try out. I'm not a ludite either, but I think it pays to examine how well modern life is serving us and how it's not on multiple levels. We tend to think in terms of categorical acceptance or rejection. Also, with something like labor or anything involving discomfort, our thinking tends to be one dimensional. Labor pays dividends in multiple ways and if we are so comfortable all the time that we become big sissies, how comfortable are we then? Good luck in your new endeavors.

Thanks!

Living the dream. Nice! Hope the first 2 years have ben good to you.

Hey, thanks. Fortunately we can act without full understanding. It's how we got this far for the most part!

Yeah, don't believe me ha ha. Now I have another word that I have to try not to say in videos and people will probably call me on it too. :)

If there is a single useful thing I could do in the time I have left on this planet, it would be to do what I can to help usher in the paradigm shift that is due and trying to happen. That paradigm shift is essentially away from the sacred institution of belief, whether it's from science, personal identity, group identity and dogmas or religion and toward an orientation with veracity. The hard thing to communicate is that truth is not really the changing of dogmas or beliefs. We are so entrenched in belief thinking that this is the default assumption that you need to find a "truth" that is righter than the "truth" you believed before, but the ultimate truth is that we are profoundly and ridiculously ignorant. But that is okay. we have functioned in this state of profound ignorance forever. If we would just recognize it and attempt to make peace with it, we would be much more functional and knowledgeable, not less. But chasing truths and trying to tie them down is fraught with danger and we just make more dogmas. These ideas are starting to gel in my head, but by it's nature, an orientation toward truth has to have vast open spaces and uncertainties. That is maybe the message really. At some point I will be able to articulate all of this better. The problem is not saying it, it's finding ways to actually communicate it effectively and offer tools to change the way we think, which requires pre-emptively heading off the traps we typically fall into, which all lead back to belief thinking. A good resource for this type of approach to life is eastern wisdom, which at it's best rejects belief and identity in an attempt to perceive the world fresh and unfiltered. Check out this short segment. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nNcFquUuKww.html We are so entrenched, whether by nature, or by nurture, perhaps both, in belief thinking that most people will not be willing to put in the work. But given tools that work, some will and eventually it will affect the people around them. Something has to combat the egomania, narcissism and tribalism that are ruling people's lives and interactions and not just wrecking any hope of social cohesion, but wrecking us from the inside out and making us grossly ineffectual. Try to tell anyone any of that now and you'll get mostly deer in the headlights looks lol.

@@SkillCult You speak to a truth . I do not understand the need for absolutes of a binary world. Freedom lies within the area between black and white.

yeah, but real critical thinking, not the belief based rejectionist thinking that often passes for it.

I like the test drive analogy, that's great!

I like my cutting boards dry, but never tried this type of thing. Should be great for knife and utensile handles for sure. I should do some of mine.

I use food grade mineral oil for my cutting board and wooden kitchen knife handles. Also a very light coat on the steel now and then, especially my bush craft knives. Think Flax would work just as well. Other oils are known to turn rancid over time.

I found some in a farm shop that's intended for horse feed omega 3 supplement, not bad price either

Flax oil and raw linseed oil are the same thing ?

I might try it. I"m not crazy about the smell. I might try orange oil. I have about 4 gallons of the stuff from an old project.

I haven't got into pine tar at all yet, but I've done a few things with raw pitch mixed with oil and beeswax. I have plans to try all that stuff more, either with a solvent, or with heat to allow penetration, but I'd prefer heat. Pitch sure makes sense from a preservative standpoint and for permanence.

Pine tar deters rot

@@samhansen9771 yes

Thanks, it's a rough ride, but I've been getting some breaks lately.

I really like the plain edible oil. I can add oil anytime of day and just wipe it off my hands and go back to whatever I'm going or eat stuff with my hands etc. Especially if going for some degree of saturation, it has to be applied a lot unless soaked.

You're welcome.

I've been planning to do that for a couple of years here, but haven't tried it yet. I was thinking of using black ABS and figuring out fittings that would allow my to leave the oil in and seal the end up when it's not in use. Set in the sun, that should get pretty warm and speed things up. That could make some interesting experiments possible. That might allow really full penetration and saturation if that's what we want. I'm not sure it is. but I'd like to try it. I should hit the hardware store next time I go to town and get that set up.

Cool, seems to work well for me. Like everyone else, I was concerned it wouldn't dry. I'm not sure it every dries as hard as oil using metal driers, but it's good enough for anything I've used it for so far.

I remember now hearing about people doing that, or suggesting it. I'm unwilling to sacrifice any entire tool handles just now, but I may change my mind...

I've been meaning to get together some different lengths of black ABS tubing to make handle soakers. Turpentine thins the oil. It might allow for deepr penetration, or faster, but it is not pure oil then.

SkillCult I was a little worried about pvc or abs because the oil might react with them. I have a bunch of scrap pvc pieces all sizes up to 4” diameter.

I'm not familiar with him or much other philosophy. I try to keep that stuff as non-derivative as possible by avoiding consuming too much of other people's ideas. If we keep seeking truth or the closest thing we can find to it though, certain things become apparent. One is our counterproductive tendency to rally around authority and subjugate our thinking and our actions to other people. I say counterproductive, but that should be modified by context. If everyone thought for themselves in the military for example, it probably wouldn't run all that well :) I'm pretty well convinced that we need a paradigm shift in thinking away from belief and toward more open ended models where what we don't know and how often we might be wrong is given much more play and the veracity of information is viewed more truthfully. At least among people who choose to be thinkers. Even among the general populace though, thought may be able to be shifted in that direction eventually. We do have very plastic minds, even if a lot of our behavioral tendencies might be hardwired.

His most famous saying was "The only thing I know is how little I do know." and so in the books he's asking questions, why, why, why. Why is that good? What do you mean by good? etc. And no one can answer and he doesnt send you home with a slogan. The dialogs don't give a teaching (people say they do) but instead demonstrate a method that if you're bold enough you can imitate. Its basically just an interogation of recieved ideas, like your interrogation of boiled lso, and your interrogation of "why is the surface coat good? Do we even need it?" Oddly enough he was a craftsman, a stonecutter by trade, and served in the Athenian army. Contemporary records indicate he shut up while deployed and was a good soldier. We're hardwired to be social, but maybe not in groups so large and not with so much top-down presentation of Knowledge and Facts. We've unduly venerated "experts" and fetishize credentials to the point we over look results as an indication of competence. I'm pretty excited to watch the rest of your videos and I'm pretty excited to see where you take channel or allow it to take you. Thanks for sharing with us.

Awesome comments. sounds like my kind of guy. One of my teachers used to say "the more you know, the dumber you are." I'm interested in approaching philosophy and most processes as an excavation of existing truths, or maybe inherent observations that could be made. For me, that is very intuitive. Much of my discontent with modern thought has come from attempting to use language to describe things that I can intuitively sense as emerging patterns in that way, and understand to a point. In trying to bring them to a communicable form, I realize how inadequate language is to the task. Simply taking the concept that a word is not a thing and the world cannot be accurately described throws authority into major question. So do things like perspective and bias and the obvious limits of human intellect. The first chapter of Sapiens, by Yuval Harari proposes that it's the ability to communicate and believe fictions which allowed Homo Sapiens to win the species race over other hominids. That totally makes sense to me, but it's super ironic, because effectively innovative and out-of-the-box thinkers have to essentially operate mostly outside of that mechanism. They are probably likely to be either elevated to authority status, or more likely marginalized, ignored and ridiculed. One of the reasons I chose the name SkillCult is to poke at people's brains to think about that authority paradigm, because I'm relentlessly encouraging people to think, which is the most un-cultlike thing possible lol. Something like the concept of authority can be useful in getting by day to day and making decisions, but more so if we view it for what it really is and note all of the assumptions made by all parties invovled, instead of elevating everything to some level of belief and then acting.

thanks

You're welcome.

We are probably doing it all the time. Ideas and habits get so entrenched that we probably can't see them anymore.

Someone left a comment saying to look into flax oil from feedstores sold in bulk. Worth checking into I'd say. Otherwise, I'm not sure. Even the cheapest stuff I find is still more than the 1 gallon can option of industrial stuff that I don't buy anymore. Diet is the perfect example of a place people frequently put belief before action. The information age I'm hoping will eventually enlighten us more to the difference between information and knowledge. We'll see. It's inforhea out there. That is the cheese glue and cloth wrap, not the rawhide one. It hasn't been used enough to say how it will hold up yet.

Found a bottle cheap enough to justify, First thing I noticed is raw oil's ability to penetrate. I keep feeding, and it keeps drinking, so I know it's sinking in. On Another note. I'm tuning a CT B's axe for a gift, and the handle came unfinished!

The usual coating on the CT BA is some kind of wax that makes it unusable. Probably just supposed to protect the handle temporarily.

This came bare wood, and it was a happy surprise!

I haven't. I'll keep my eyes out for big pieces to play with.

do you get an actual baked on thick finish like old cast iron gets? I've not had much luck building that up on my pans, but I think it may be because I cook with almost no drying or partially drying oils.

SkillCult yes. I keep a small container of flaxseed oil in the fridge with a little sponge. After I cook with and clean the pan, I lightly coat it, heat it to smoke point and wipe all the excess oil of with a clean rag. Every single time. Amazing seasoning. I left a message on your website too. Trying to buy your tanning book.

To me it is, except that I operate mostly outside of the bounds of scientific methodology. It's handy, but it ain't the only game in town. There is a lot to be said for intuition and doing a lot.

Thanks. I think the proteins can be precipitated by heating or other processes. I'm sure my old formulas books have that information. I know there are some non-toxic metals that can be used as driers. Iron is one of them. But presumably they are less effective. I have a lot yet to research on linseed and the other drying oils.

He said he uses raw oil, then cooks and skims it.

@@SkillCult ok that sounds like a good method

I'm not too familiar I think for handle saturation, anything reasonably drying is fine. Mr. chickadee just uses cheap veg oil.

I can't say I know much about that. What about flame treatment ala buckin billy ray smith?

That was fog. I've read stuff before about bound moisture that is part of cells taking longer to leave, but reading more about it, there isn't a lot of solid info on it. I was reading an interesting paper on changes wood undergoes in seasoning, but their findings were essentially different from other previous studies on the same. They were all also looking at mostly very old wood, 60 years and more, compared to fresh dried wood. I'm interested in the first 20 or 30 years. The loss of bound water thing is possibly true in leather and hides as well, though I think it might also be degradation of proteins the that hold water in the skin and I don't know what that mechanism is. I'm not sure why he likes to resoak in that 50/50 in the off season. it may have to do with flexibility. Of course 50/50 solvent and oil is not just oil and maybe it is beneficial in some way to have that solvent or solved oil in the heart of that handle. He recommended that I treat some handles and test them against controls in a hydraulic press. I'd like to do that sometime. Nothing polishes like use. People ask me sometimes how to polish handles and make them look used. I'd feel like dumbass doing that. just use it. It takes surprisingly little work. One side effect of the cordwood challenge I'm hoping for is more dirty axes on youtube lol.

downeast primitive skills I agree on the well used tools needing very little...it seems like it's the little used tools that should be protected, so that when they are pulled out to do that specialized job they're in good shape.

Well, I guess the one thing I would say is that I'd be cautious about saturating a bow like that. I have a gut feeling it would start to follow or become sluggish or something. Otherwise, linseed or any drying oil ought to be fine. I think a lot of people use beeswax or a beeswax oil mix.

I wouldn't. I don't think you'll like the look. At least experiment first. Maybe if you put a wax or sometihng on top. But kitchen cabinets are going to get pretty grimy if they are not sealed. I'd probably look into a water based polyurethane like Bon Chemi. That stuff is amazing and goes on without any odor. I've done a couple of old fir floors with it. Super tough and looks great. You can get it in a satin if you dont' want the gloss look.

What dilutes the pine tar oil? Turps?

​@@AldoSchmedack As far as I know (and I don't know very far) the oils used to protect the drying wood are used as is, they're not concentrate and don't require thinning. They're not actually a raw pine tar, but a pre-processed derivative. But that isn't the question you asked; I'm not sure what would be used to thin the tar if you needed to do so, it wasn't a situation we encountered.

+drason69 I have plans to experiment, but I haven't yet. I like the idea of pitch, but who knows. I know some use pine tar. The issue with either is getting them to penetrate when it's thick or solid at room temp, so either heat or solvent would be required.

I really don't get very many actually, surpisingly few. I get more on videos that reach the general public more, rather than the people that are already into this stuff. Honestly, sometimes it's fun to tear them a new one :) I just think it's really not good how easily people believe stuff and how much they try to use it to even just have a position on something they don't need to have a position about at all.

Put a steel wedge in it. Oil can work, but you usually can only do it once. Unless it's a drop in handle like a traditional tomahawk.

Seems likely, but I don't think it's necessary to overthink or tweak the process. I mean I'm happy with whatever soaks in easily enough over time. If you wanted a deeper soak maybe, or faster, but just getting about 18 inch or so seems to work pretty good.

My whole world has become wrapped around the advancement of a non-belief paradigm and responsible relationship with consumption and interpretation of information. they are simple ideas, but it can be very difficult to come to embody them in everyday thinking and communications since we live in a blatantly belief oriented paradigm.

Great stuff!

I thought I should add, I use Ash handles and don't put any oil on them, but they get sweat on them. Also daylight, especially direct sunlight, will break down the glues that hold the fibres together causing cracks (often attributed to moisture), since oils and varnishes let light through this weakening happens whether oiled or not. This is the beauty of paint on wood, it stops the light reaching the fibres, as does the tool shed.

Thanks!

Excellent tip on the feed store oil. I'll check it out!

I used to get it by the gallon for free via a local farmer I used to do odd jobs for. He grew about a thousand acres of linseed every year and cart it to the oil pressing plant and he could always scrounge a few gallons. I wish I had laid down a store when I had the chance. A change of manager at the plant and that gig was over :

Yes and even worse, the oil will gum up too. I would just do coats on the lower part of the handle and stay away from the hinge. that is what I did with mine.

I've had people tell me this set of rules for oiling tool handles about times a day, then times a week, then times a month or something, and I was like I can't even remember that! And who cares anyway. How hot is it? what kind of wood? I have seen hickory that only soaks up a little, then that''s it, and other stuff that drinks oil like crazy.

The one I have here has no finish that I can see at all. If the BLO keeps soaking in and you don't mind using it, go for it, Otherwise, maybe scrape the surface a little or sand and see if the raw oil will soak in. If it it taking oil, just go for it.

I would probably soak it in linseed oil. Hard to say how much it will swell though. I imagine there are other modern products for that too.

not when it really cures out, which doesn't take very long.

Look up iodine values of oils. Generally the higher the iodine value the more of a drying oil it is. It ain't a perfect representation of what oils are best in which order, but it will give you an idea of what can be used.

How bout natural oils from hard work. Swing that tool and oil her up.....

Those iodine value charts questioniblafy mentioned are good to look at, compare stuff on the chart to linseed oil, oils that are close to the same value should dry pretty well. Oils like soybean and corn are considered semi-drying. They will congeal, but not quite to the toughness that the strongly drying oils will. Natural oils are made up of multiple fatty acids. not all fats in linseed or any other drying oil are drying oils, but the more, the more drying the natural oil is. I'll be testing a bunch of them at some point.

WOULD ADDING IODINE TINGTURE TO OILS HELP HARDEN? WHAT ABOUT LOW HEAT

I have no idea on the iodine.. Heat does speed up curing though, and light seems to as well.

Thanks for your contribution to my ongoing informal observations on words, meaning and the belief complex.

That has been on my to do list for years lol. I think the way to go is black ABS. You could put it in the sun to heat up. It would take a lot of oil, but I think you could probably get away with using some cheap veg oils like canola and corn oil. They are fairly far onto the drying side of the scale. I'm not sure how much better ABS would be for resisting UV light, but it is probably best to paint it whatever is used.

You should either let it dry on the outside or not oil it anymore. If it's soaking it in, it won't be sticky. If it dries and then you add more, it might be a little sticky, but as soon as you wipe off excess and use it, it will polish down and smooth out. At least that is my experience. Wipe off the excess, stop oiling it; and use it a lot.

@@SkillCult Thanks a lot Dear SC! :) just came to think that i actually didnt wipe it very much after each oiling. Guess I should have wiped more excess oil off. Thanjs again man

Could be. I don't think I've seen it to be a problem. Some just bring it to heat and skim the scum off to purify a little bit.

@@SkillCult yeah - it is difficult to know unless one does their own experiment (could just be marketing)

No, sounds too high tech for me. I'm happy with the oil.

Sometimes it will go that fast. Just wait a couple days and try again. If you are using boiled oil, it is more likely to set up early and stop soaking in than raw oil. If it's not going in anymore, just don't worry about it.

@@SkillCult ok thanks, do you think i could stop the boiled linseed and start using raw or flax instead? Or is it too late?

@@David-kg1hc you can try, but don't overthink it. It's fine whatever happens. Put some raw linseed on it and see if it soaks in if you have it. Otherwise, just call it a day and start using it.

yes

Yep, same stuff. No visiting hours. I'm a recluse.

Flax seed is what it's usually called when it's food safe.

can you use food safe flax oil like linseed oil?

Yes. Possible differences, some pointed out it contains impurities that can be precipitated out by cooking or other methods. hasn't seemed like a problem for me. The only other thing I can think of is that they may use different strains of flax for food or industrial use oils. But, given that the oils the health food people want are the same unstable drying fatty acids, it doesn't seem like an issue. I've used it a lot now and it seems to work fine right out of the bottle.

successive coats of raw linseed, allowing them to soak in between coats, until it stops taking oil.

That's an interesting analogy. I think there is often an over emphasis on solidifying and proving things that can lead to rigidity and closes the doors of perception. We all live in a mental maze by necessity, but certain habits, thought patterns and language can really limit our thinking. If we over value facts and their pursuit and importance, then we are more likely to find them when they aren't there and use those as roadblocks to further inquiry. Science is largely based on proving out knowledge to build on and I think the valuation of that can easily lead to misuse of the concept, outside of it's original intent. Too often when we talk about facts, we are actually describing about belief. Like any of the rest of it, the distinction is not always clear.