Performance Nutrition for Backpacking, Part 4: Electrolyte Balance 

Thanks very much! I really appreciate that.

Trued to describe this channel to a high level backpacking friend last year (also why I was optimizing food), but he assumed it was things that he had already heard, where I feel these discussions gives new light to important health topics. Still haven't figured out how to describe it best

I've been doing just that. This is all outstanding information.

Amen!!

Agreed. Everyone could benefit from eating and drinking better.

Thank you so much! That means a lot to me.

Much appreciated and very glad to help! Thanks!

Thanks! Glad I could help.

Thanks! I appreciate that. Always glad to hear that it may have helped!

I like it!

Thank you! I really appreciate it.

I also will be passing these on to my sis & her husband. I go hiking sometimes with my sis (when she’s not working or out of the country) She is ER nurse and he is anesthesiology nurse. Currently they are training for trip to Burma in January on medical mission trip- have to hike over a small mountain twice carrying about 40 lbs and it’s pretty hot weather there. She accumulates A Lot of salt on her skin when she sweats! More than anyone I’ve ever seen! And she doesn’t eat very salty foods either

Thanks! I appreciate it.

Very kind of you to say! Thanks much!

Thanks! Much appreciated. It’s hardly perfect, but I try!

Very kind of you to say! Thank you.

Much appreciated, but not necessary! I’ll keep grinding away on new topics just as soon as I get my new workshop set up (we just moved).

I’m one of those people. If you cut off my hands, I wouldn’t be able to talk 😜

@@GearSkeptic LOL. Thanks for these very helpful videos, especially the electrolyte replacement ones. I'm tired of lugging 10 lbs of water up a steep mountain, as it seems, the more I carry, the more I sweat and need to carry. Electrolyte replacement will prove to end the vicious cycle.

Thanks very much! I am glad if any of it can help.

Most welcome! And, thank you!

I’m so glad, and I really do appreciate that!

Sounds like an awesome trip!

I am very glad to help, and thanks! I’ve also had some of those issues with cramping, feeling light headed. Paying attention to my hydration status has definitely helped!

You are very welcome! I hope it helps.

Thanks! Also, I just uploaded a Part 5, if you are interested. It furthers the electrolyte discussion and adds a sodium-potassium calculator to the chart, which now has an electrolyte sheet with 138 supplements to choose from.

@@GearSkeptic Definitely interested! I'm watching it right now. Thanks!

You’re very welcome!

I’m very glad if it can help!

You are welcome!

You are most welcome!

That is very nice of you to say, and I’m really glad to help!

Most welcome!

I have heard of this. I also read that training in hot weather will also increase the body’s acclimation to salt loss. Thanks!

Thanks! Since then, I also did and Advanced Electrolyte Supplementation video to help with the actual selection of electrolyte mixes. There is a new tab in the food chart just for electrolytes, and a calculator to help you tune your selection based on what you have in your menu plan. Hope it helps!

Same! Downloaded the series to listen to when on the road or when taking a walk around town. Also thinking maybe I should start wearing a ring while hiking…

I have been updating the chart since the videos. I did add dried fruits and veggies (check the freeze dried meals tab, as they are from the same vendors). I will check out superfood powders. Thanks!

I had to go dig out my copy of Beyond Backpacking to make sure I wasn't being unfair to Jardine. From the '99 edition on p.204 are now cringe worthy nuggets like, "water is the best re-hydrator", "excreted salt is toxin" and you'll get "electrolytes in abundance from your food" or "the idea that we need salt is a myth" and he goes on to suggest drinking a quart of apparently plain water an hour. Elsewhere he mentions drinking 3 gallons of water a day while hiking through a desert region. I hope I'm missing the parts where he consumed some form of electrolytes, but it doesn't readily come up with a glance through the index. I believe he did suggest people drink an Emergen-C pack every morning, but that appears to have only 65mg of sodium per serving. I don't see the section where he changed shoes, but he does recommend buying shoes larger than you need. I know people's feet get bigger during a long hike. I haven't done a thorough the hike, but during a busy hiking season or two, my feet certainly changed sizes years ago and never went back. What he's suggesting is specifically accounting for daily swelling and he goes on to specify having shoes even bigger (2.5 sizes bigger!) if the environment will be hot. As accomplished as Jardine is, one wonders how much more he could have done with a more reasonable hydration strategy.

Sometimes I wear a watch while hiking, one of those Casio pieces so I can play with the barometer and “altimeter”. I have noticed the same tightness in my wrist as with a ring on my finger. I think a string or strap might work on either. Should be snug to start, though. Hard to tell “loose” from “less loose”, but snug to tight registers pretty well. And I’ve learned to buy my hiking shoes a half-size larger than my street shoes.

You’re most welcome! I hope it helps.

I never made a formal spreadsheet, but I did a quick look at it. Basically, what I found was that since both calcium and magnesium were needed in smaller doses, needs there were largely covered by the foods in my diet. It was mostly the sodium and potassium that I might need to supplement in sweatier scenarios.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and for the information.

Yes! I recently posted the Part 5 in this series, and it contains a section on where body water goes including respiratory loss. It addresses the issue of altitude and increased hydration needs, as well. Also, if it’s important like in very cold climates, put a cloth over your mouth (a buff, neck gaiter, or balaclava). Breathing through (both in and out) will help conserve both warmth and moisture, using the counter-current principle.

Whatever you do, don’t die out there! 😉

@@GearSkeptic I never wear my wedding ring... I might start. :)

We should come with instruction manuals ☺️

@@GearSkeptic I did a whole semester of desert hikes in los angeles and thought that my hands just ~naturally~ swelled a ton and i felt terrible and couldn't hear clearly "when i work out" because I was out of shape 😭 i even had an instructor, who is one of the many people who never mentioned any of this to me (with every first aid certification instructor ive had, all of which included heat injury treatment) and just said ~drink water~. in. the san gabriels. mountainous desert. doing fast hikes up and down. with No shade. Only an hour at a time, but still! It was supposed to get me doing it on my own more often, but my takeaway was that I was naturally unfit for that activity and did not attempt a hike again for SIX YEARS. Since i found this video I have just continuously discovered annoying little lifelong symptoms that correlate to warmth or exertion that I always thought were my own natural deficiencies for being lazy and out of shape and blamed myself for, of course every one of them got worse with exertion and made me want to do it even less. Every one of them clears up quickly with electrolytes. I got some salt stick caps and carry them now. This is a major quality of life shift for me (not to mention the danger I would have been in during a 14 mile Rainier hike I did during this week's PNW heatwave) and I feel like writing a letter to every one of those physical health instructors who let me down here. Ughhhhh. My debilitating, trip-ruining headaches (resistant to pain medication), gone. Urinary frequency, normal. Inner ear problems! evaporated! I can HEAR normally, consistently! It's like if those first aid certification classes had only ever told me to elevate a wound without ever saying anything about putting pressure on it... and I got a huge scrape every single time I was outside for over an hour, 3 seasons of the year, and dutifully elevated it while blood dripped down my arm and I blamed myself for still bleeding. Especially considering that my LA hiking symptoms indicated the beginning of heat injury that, as I know now, is not treatable with just water, I just don't understand why this was some huge secret through all of K-12 PE and Health, various urban first aid certs, and several collegiate (but not competitive) sports classes. No one said anything other than more "low sodium=healthy (: drink water" . Where did everybody else learn about this??

I basically started my research from zero to see what I could find, rather than rely on an existing training package (which in my view would just be regurgitating somebody else’s work). I’m very glad if it has helped!

We have been lied to and misled so much regarding what foods are really healthy and beneficial as well as many other things relating to health… and then yes, the folks lower on the totem pole just regurgitate what the higher powers feed them down the line. And studies can be manipulated, and it’s been discovered that studies will be buried if the results show something other than what was intended (like the study about saturated fats vs seed oils that was recently discovered buried in a basement of one of the researchers.. when asked why it wasn’t published “because it showed a different result than what we wanted” They wanted to show that seed oils were so much healthier than saturated animal fats.. but seed oils ended up increasing all cause mortality by a considerable amount. Dr Ken Berry talks about this and I think also Dr Anthony Chaffee does too.. I’ve learned that pretty much whatever the mainstream says is good, I do the opposite bcs that’s actually what is good for my health and well-being esp regarding food

Good tip. Thanks!

@@GearSkeptic And then I watched the next video in the series and realized I should have posted this comment for that video. I think I will, just for people looking for good, affordable potassium supplement options. Thanks again for these truly useful and well researched videos. I have never found anything so thorough and useful regarding hiking nutrition, or water treatment, or really anything you put out. These will be gold-standard reference videos for years to come.

I also created a sodium/potassium calculator (included in the chart) that works alongside the menu planner. It is described more fully in Part 5 on Advanced Electrolyte Supplementation. Hope it helps!

I’d never thought of that! I found this free converter that turns the audio from any RU-vid video into an mp3 file for you. Hope that helps! mp3-convert.org/v3/

Great idea!! Thank you! Works well! Will listen to the whole series

I don’t think they are junk. We have some, and my wife always keeps one in her purse. 1 or 2 per day shouldn’t be a problem on long, active days where you sweat. It also depends on your diet (what other electrolytes you are getting). I’ve had a Gatorade plus two SaltStick tablets (spread across hours) on hot hikes. As you say, seems to help.

It looks like Ultima has nice amounts of potassium, calcium, and magnesium. For the amounts of these other three, the sodium (only 55mg) seems a little light. But, that will totally depend on how much sodium you get through diet (the lower sodium electrolyte mixes usually assume a “typical” high-sodium diet so they focus elsewhere). You say you like salty snacks. That may work out right for you. I like sweet snacks and tend to be low on sodium, so I use the more traditional, saltier electrolyte mixes (like SaltStick capsules or Gatorade). I did an update to the Excel version of the food chart (video called Hiker Food Chart 2.0). In it, I added a fill-in spreadsheet where you can add a sample diet of your own food and it will total the nutritional information for you. Try it and see what your day’s total sodium intake would be, and maybe that can help guide you as to what type of electrolyte mix to supplement with.

I have used Ultima but switched to Re-Lyte for the higher amounts of electrolytes since I don’t eat prepackaged food and eat far less often than most folks due to high fat carnivore way of eating

I agree, and I believe I’ve noticed the same thing with my watch. It’s a good point because a lot of hikers wear some kind of smart watch for either gps or fitness tracking. Thanks!

They have a good formula. I just found some in the store, now a powder mix in individual packets. Bought a box to try them out.

Thanks very much! It is kind of you to say so, and I’m always glad to hear it may have helped! That’s a very interesting point about the fiber. I will have to play around with that. Thanks!

Tailwind’s specific Recovery mix is good by itself. It has the carb/protein ratio already. I only use the frog fuel to add protein to a carb-only drink like Gatorade or Tailwind’s regular mix.

@@GearSkeptic thank you! Your videos have been so helpful. I've had a bad habit of getting dehydrated. I think it's due to not wanting to stop and filter water. I'll get swelling in my calves and feet, my legs get so fatigued. I'm hoping the information I'm getting from your videos will help me on my upcoming Tahoe Rrim Trail thru-hike.

I haven’t! But, it sounds like a great idea!

@@GearSkeptic Also, how did you find the fortitude to complete the massive food spreadsheet???? How does a mortal man accomplish such data sorcery????

It took me a loooong time! 🤓

I suspect that those theories were ad hoc, mistakenly attributing the swelling to other things that seemed intuitively to make sense when it was fluid and electrolyte balance that actually mattered.

Ah, that’s a shame, but it seems to happen regularly. I don’t have any other source, but that is why I take screenshots!

With my health problems, there are supplements that I will need to take onto trail, but spending some time Google searches for "supplement XYZ muscle recovery" often showed ones I currently take could have benefits in long term hiking situations. A hiker talking about osteo-biflex made me realize that I need to look at much more (for my own health and well-being) than just food. This year is going to be an experiment to see if my energy and fatigue levels can be fixed. Having bad Gastro problems, a fight with norovirus a few years back really tore me up, but I have resolved to be stronger in my fight.

That’s a good question. I have only just poked around the topic of micronutrients and vitamin supplements so far. A potential topic for a future video!

@@GearSkeptic creatine boosts ATP, and so I feel that addition could help directly in recovery drink, but with protein consumed during the day (as well). It is also a theory of mine, that multiple recovery sessions during a day could be more beneficial than one at the end if the day. If there is an upkick for 15 minutes after, then could we attribute similar attributes from interval training, which suggests periods of exertion and periods of rest work differently than long endurance sessions. Ideally sometime would monitor their approximate VO2 level to stay aerobic, but can doing seperate micro-recovery sessions help to increase glycogen levels? It seems the math suggests it would, although how much increase is unknown. But if adding to the recovery was the biggest change noted by experts, then perhaps having 3 or 4 over an 8 or 10 hour period is preferred to one. This would be a nice time to take shoes and socks off, and perform foot inspection and maintenance. Wonder how long would be taken to recover before hiking again, with at least 15 minutes that protein being dissolved during this period has an increased glycogenic effect (or was my interpretation from the data). The difference with this multi recovery system theory, is that a recovery dinner isn't needed until stopping for the night. Filtering water and going potty are great recovery opportunities, and recovery beverage can help add calories in between breakfast and dinner. Knowing that there's a time period for additional uptake suggests multi recovery is beneficial and possibly very needed, because each break without recovery could send deeper into glycogen depletion. One tactic could be to have recovery drink, and to drink some each time you stop for 10 or 15 minutes. Each of those points are a chance to super-charge, i guess super-recharge is more appropriate (theoretically)

Trying a sweet and savory sipping broth recovery drink, with gatorade dextrose and bone broth powder. It was tasty with hot water, but haven't tried cold or lukewarm yet.

This is basically the reason I advocate eating as close to possible at the 4:1 ratio all day. It largely eliminates the need to be concerned about smaller start-and-stop issues throughout the day. Take breaks. Change paces. If you’re always digesting a snack of optimum ratio, then it is sort of like you are on a constant intravenous drip of optimized fuel, and that fuel is the same ratio as recovery. You might even say the difference between fuel and recovery is a semantic one, because the best fuel is proportioned the same as optimal recovery. So, fuel can be thought of as a form of on-the-go replenishment. The only special part about Recovery is the desire for speed, since it presumes you’ve ceased exertion, which will start the timer on the window closing. But, if you’ll continue to work, the window continues to stay open, so timeliness isn’t an issue and your 4:1 carb/protein might as well be mixed with higher density fat, even if that slows digestion somewhat. Lastly, I think you still need recovery despite a constant diet of 4:1 all day. This is because, depending on exertion level, you can easily burn glycogen faster than it can be recovered through diet. So, despite your good practices all day, you still run a deficit and need to top off when finished.

The Hiker Food Chart 2.0 is available in PDF, with electrolyte info for the foods listed. Did you mean some other chart?

@@GearSkeptic Sorry, the chart at 56:22. This would be good to keep on my phone.

Ah. Unfortunately, no. I just grabbed a screen shot.

@@GearSkeptic No problem. Thanks.

In addition to the above, the RDA for potassium appears to be 4,700mg-why would the PDI be less than that? Is the PDI supposed to be extra, on top of the RDA? And if it is, that only makes the very slow rates of replenishment listed above even slower. I'm confused!

Hmmm…good question. The data is from two different sources, so it’s possible it doesn’t jibe. Also, I don’t think he references where those PDI numbers come from, and the range seems rather broad. Not sure how precisely they can be used for calculations. Good observation on your part!

It is very difficult to create a calculator that would tell you how much sodium you should have in a day. It varies on too many things. It wouldn’t be based on miles or hours, per se. It has a lot to do with how much you sweat and how much you drink, which can depend heavily on temperature, altitude, effort level, and your personal acclimation. The trouble with “calculation” is why I end up using metrics like urine color and hand swelling to “measure” my hydration level and electrolyte status as I go. For the sugar, that is about getting the most rapid hydration. Normally, time shouldn’t be that big a factor (if you have been drinking well as you go). Rapid becomes an issue if you have let yourself dehydrate badly enough that you have become ill. It only takes a few grams of sugar in a 16oz electrolyte drink to take advantage of this effect. Products like Liquid IV promote this concept, or Ceralyte (things described as Oral Rehydration Salts). Hope that helps!

Thanks! I understand the in the field testing methods and will use them!…. I’m guess I’m just wondering how much salt I should bring with me in case…. It will be height of summer and in the Rockies so I’m guessing I might be sweating a lot! Thanks for responding!

I always bring some of those salt caps as extras, just in case. They are so small and light that they won’t be noticed!

I read your comment twice and i still don't get your point. Was he taking too much salt or not enough (you're complaining about him sweating, taking salt tablets and not driking electrolytes at the same time) ? It also seems like you didn't watch the video.

Interesting. I guess there is a difference between intaking sodium versus “sodium supplements”. The study didn’t include people getting no sodium. The range of intake was from 131 to 533 mg…per hour. Even the lowest sodium consumers were getting thousands of milligrams per day. Basically, they didn’t show that sodium supplementation doesn’t have a benefit. All they did was imply that supplementation beyond an adequate minimum has no additional benefit. If you get enough from diet, supplements aren’t necessary. But, if you’re below what you need to maintain from diet alone, it seems supplements can still be of benefit.

Hypo- and hyper- natremia rates based on blood samples were indistinguishable for all sodium intake levels, meaning that some participants had too little sodium (when consuming up to 7,200g) while others had too much (when consuming as little as 2,000mg). So some athletes were _below an adequate minimum_ regardless of supplementation amounts (authors also cite several studies supporting this finding). Also, something that is referenced and which I had heard before is that too much water is more common and more dangerous. In the end, even though this new study is touted as being "large", there are still very few samples representing the different ranges of hydration/natremia... But the biggest red flag is that the authors though it was a good idea for the acronym of their methodology to be *WASSUP* :(

Seawater is very, VERY salty. While a liter of Gatorade has 400mg of sodium, a liter of seawater has 35,000mg of dissolved salts, mostly sodium and chloride (Wikipedia). It’s so salty that it will actually draw water out of your body instead of putting it in, accelerating your dehydration and making things worse.

@@GearSkeptic thank you!

Thanks! I appreciate the desire for links to studies. The reason I don’t is because, over time, I have found multiple instances where links go dead. For some reason, they move or change the addresses occasionally. Even for myself when going back to check on studies that I may have saved a while ago, I have just found it easier to simply search the study’s title. It has always popped up a current link on the first try that way. Sorry for any inconvenience. That is very interesting about the Apple Watch and VO2Max!

@@GearSkeptic you could link using the wayback machine, web.archive.org/

I’ll check it out!

Well, I wouldn’t say the human system’s perfected. You adapt to do the best you can with what you’ve got where you’re at. That being said, the scenario reminds me of an episode of Alone. In survival, calories are king. Most everybody back then probably spent most of their time deep in ketosis. Their only recovery cocktail was fat.

I agree. In the wild it's the fat laden tissues that are consumed first. Its seems odd to me though how this system of ours has been honed to maximize a certain ratio of carbs to proteins, such that there must be some common scenario that was beneficial to our species. Otherwise, it would suggest that sports nutrition scientists came upon a hack that speeds recovery, but has no evolutionary template. Still, I tried your recovery drink today after 90 min of mountain biking at a high amateur pace...its a jolt! Thanks!!

There is still the Gatherer half of hunter-gatherer. Though the season is limited, carbs abound when fruit ladens the limbs. I think the best year-round performers would have to have adapted parallel (or backup) systems to make most efficient use of two very different diets, depending on what’s available in their particular where-and-when. It would behoove you to have a fancy carb/protein recovery mechanism to plush those fight-or-flight glycogen reserves when you can, and then an effective fat-based alternative for all other times.

@@GearSkeptic Makes sense. A key to our success, adaptation. Also, carb sources were probably easily dried, stored or carried. Its just that the code to optimum recovery seems so specific, i.e. timing, ratios, delivery, etc...it begs for an evolutionary explanation, kinda like "confirmation bias" as a remnant of a psychological trait that improved early man's odds at surviving long enough to reproduce.

I like to have one bottle with water and one bottle with mix. That way, I can drink from whichever one I need at the time. If you have only one container and you fill it with mix, you will have to take on the electrolytes every time you need fluid, whether you want them or not. This can come up after you eat something. The food may have all the salt you need, and you might want to just drink plain water for a while.

That would really only get you sodium (and some trace minerals). If you check out the Part 5 video on Advanced Electrolyte Supplementation, see the section on DIY recipes starting at 43min17sec. Ideally, you'd want those other electrolytes including potassium, calcium, and magnesium.

@@GearSkeptic I thought the the himalayan salt would also give magnesium, potassium and calcium but I guess they are much lower than the needed daily amount. Thanks!

It should be losing, as in "losing weight on a diet". Loosing is rare in modern usage. It technically means to set something loose, like "loosing the hounds" when sending dogs to a hunt.

@@GearSkeptic thank you

@@GearSkeptic or “loose an arrow.”

Exactly!

It just means you were not all that interested in the subject. If you took a college class it would have taken many more hrs.

And, make sure you register at REI

Ha! I love it! Now, if I could only pull it off…

@@GearSkeptic Maybe just use the actual bigfoot footage then switch back to you.....I meant no indignity towards your person in saying that.....I hold you and your videos in the highest regard and meant it as a nod to skepticism ......?

10 mEq is 740mg. I need to take 30mEq potassium daily due to wasting thru kidneys.