It's so true...in science, it is difficult for a PhD scientist to break into the business side of things without an MBA when in reality, they will pick up the business aspect relatively quickly on the job and light years quicker than an MBA will ever understand the tech behind the concepts they are trying to manage. The system is totally backwards and the prestige associated with MBAs is misguided at best.
@@passableespresso5068 comparing the top of one field with the average of another is not a fair comparison. And either way, I am talking about an MBA working in an area they have no prior knowledge about. A ‘top’ MBA will never catch up to the insight of a top PhD scientist in the field of, let’s say molecular biology. Whereas the biologist will learn the management and business aspects of an MBA much much faster.
@@seancullen99 "comparing the top of one field with the average of another is not a fair comparison" Yes but my point is that MBA is not utterly useless or something like that, considering top schools such as HBS, MIT Sloan, GSB, etc. The biggest tech company in my country, Indonesia, was founded by an Indonesian HBS alumnus. "A ‘top’ MBA will never catch up to the insight of a top PhD scientist in the field of, let’s say molecular biology. Whereas the biologist will learn the management and business aspects of an MBA much much faster." Maybe, but I think that's what MBA is all about, they are the conductor, not the violinist if you know what I mean. Elon Musk does not have to understand the entirety of rocket science to run SpaceX. And by your logic, there should be as many companies like FANG as the talented engineer, scientists out there. but it's far from the case and proves your domain knowledge is useless until it can be utilized in a manner that I can produce business and economic value. To me, these extroverted hustlers are still an integral part of our society. Btw Paypal and Palantir are still hiring MBAs, I guess Peter Thiel has changed his mind
Like any other professional designation (law, medicine, dentistry), an MBA leads to a high probability of a comfortable life. It does not ensure anomalous success. The probability of anomalous success increases when someone is (1) truly passionate about their given field (2) consistently puts in the hours (3) gains some durable competitive advantage through specialization or monopoly as Thiel points out.
My manager with random MBA degree just get fired after a year messing around, I am not sure if he leads himself to a high probability of a comfortable life.
This guy is spot on! In addition, I see many people who wasted a fortune on degrees in fields like Psychology who then get an MBA to increase their salary. At the end of the day they entered the MBA with no marketable skill or knowledge but now with an MBA think they can manage engineers better than a well rounded technical person.
Your comment is nauseatingly true. I find it nothing short of abhorrent when I find myself on a project that is "managed" by some idiot who knows nothing of the technology driving the product. No one is "managing" anything by merely scheduling meetings, asking developers for estimates, and moving tickets around on a kanban board. If that's all you're good for, then you're just a fucking overpaid, glorified secretary. A manager of a tech product must be able to be an effective intermediary and translator between the non-technical visionary and the technical implementer. But how often do we really see that in practice?
@@lllllllllIIIIIIIIIIl Psychology major here. I'm not sure how you call those fields where you live, but Work/Organizational Psychology and Health Psychology is full of hand-rubbing money grabbler meddlers who fight for cushy spots in companies while doing pretty basic stuff but with the "prestige" associated with their grades. In fact, I would say that social science in general is the place where it's easier to find self-justified job cycles with little to no impact on everyday life (unless we come to the subject of political agents pushing an agenda). Social science really needs to reduce the size of their classrooms if it wants to become productive again.
@@lllllllllIIIIIIIIIIl excellent comment. You really hit the nail in the head. I also have noticed that the engineering managers who run the kanban boards are completely clueless about the technology and have no feel for it. If they just let the lead engineer absorb his job function, everything would run more efficiently and the business would save a ton.
This is so spot on! When I worked at EA, they replaced the CEO with a guy who ran Colgate Palmolive. Like some a-hole who sold dish soap knows any-damn-thing about making video games. It's really suspect how MBA grads always come up with the same answers to the same problems, because that's all they've been taught.
What's you point? Yeah, he was a Harvard MBA who had dozens of years of "business" experience running a completely different type of "business." My point is that just because you're experienced in one industry doesn't mean you know squat about another. Their next CEO had spent 10 years as EA's COO. THAT was the choice they should have made before.
@@patman2193 finally a reasonable assertion. All of this however does not tell me it’s bad to get an MBA if it gives you a chance to reach the highest levels in an organization due to bias or whatever. MBA => CEO
I will go one better. I had a required textbook written by two professors. They were greatly acclaimed. 50 years ago. Something was lacking in the book and the phraseology was not consistent. So I went to the graduate library and researched. I found the source of their book in short order. They plagiarized a book written in French by the coal minister of France around 1910. Fayol was the Frenchman. An MBA is worthless without work experience. If you want to think creatively, you major in philosophy or a foreign language. Both cause you to think.
when he said, extremely extroverted i was blown , because mba's and many of the kind is that they get too loud and talks in a certain way. We dont need an MBA in the tech industry.
I think Musk said it better recently on Munro Live, where he mentioned that MBA’s just want to ‘parachute in’ to becoming the boss - rather than working their way up and doing the hard work necessary to bring great products to market.
Which is not true, post MBA hires are never at senior levels , they just rise up the hierarchy faster because they understand business and how to generate value to shareholders
I find current pro and anti-MBA perspectives bull**** (sorry about the profanity). A lot of MBAs are folks who want to switch industries, but have no pathways to do so. The entrepreneurs in their desired fields are racing after the hottest young folk and have no time or space for the doddering 40 year old who's trying to find their way in a new field. Even if they could afford to go back to undergrad (and in most cases, they can't afford it) and put in the work, they are at a disadvantage. So what do they do? They take the one programme that recognises prior work experience and age to some extent and still has market value across multiple domains. So why switch at all? Sometimes, it's realising their goals late in life - not everyone knows what they want to do right off the bat at age 16. Otherwise, very often, they don't have a choice. Their older industry may have collapsed, or the work they did earlier may no longer hold value, often for no fault of their own. They may have families to take care of or hospital bills to pay. I appreciate creators and entrepreneurs who make great new products, but they often forget that people go to work for more than one reason. Yes, MBA managers have a bad rep and this needs to be corrected, but I also worry about the flip, where folks imply that it you're not creating and not building something new, you're basically not worth anything. Value comes in various forms, shapes and sizes, and I agree with Thiel where he says he doesn't want to generalize. No one should.
I believe the "if you're not creating" viewpoint comes from a public reaction to 40 years of 'managers' and all the resultant effects on American Corporatocracy on most ordinary people's lives. Profit isn't all there is. Counting beans isn't all there is. People matter. Evisceration shouldn't.
To me there's an indication they don't get along in some important degree- They were part of the paypal mafia yet they haven't shared a stage. I think the reason being is Elon was pushed out of paypal by peter thiel and others, maybe Elon never lived it down: www.elonmusk.info/2001/04/what-really-happened-at-paypal.html#:~:text=There%20has%20always%20been%20controversy%20between%20what%20happened,Elon%20took%20a%20vacation%2Flate%20honeymoon%2Ffundraising%20trip%20to%20Australia.
Specialist masters is far better in finance, real estate investment, etc..MBA is dinosaur...business schools still trying to promote that BS to keep them in business. Every ivy League MBA, that joined our hedge fund was awful.
The value add of MBAs as managers (if they apply themselves) is breaking silos. How it all fits the goals of reaching and winning potential customers and delivering to existing customers is an understanding surprisingly few people have. A lot of companies, especially older and larger ones, are struggling to digitalize their operations. I'm in because I want to be better at selling cloud or data solutions to enterprises. I understand the tech pretty well, but I want to understand the KPIs each department head might use to evaluate its risks and future success. Those can vary widely across sectors and organizations.
A tech undergrad can understand the business part through experience a whole lot better than an MBA with a business or economics or psych or history undergrad can understand tech
CPA here - It took me about 18 months to pass all four sections. Once completed, I forgot everything I learned since 90% of the stuff had no relevance to what I was doing and the 10% left I already knew. But...I got an immediate 25% raise, and it opened many doors for me. In that regard it was completely worth it. I'm think about getting my MBA for the same purpose. It would pay for itself in a year or two with dividends until the day I retire. If a corporation will roll out the red carpet for you since you have that piece of paper then it is worth it. And there's not once ounce of fat in an MBA. No under water basket weaving or humanities. They are literally teaching you everything corporate America is looking for. Not one ounce of useless academia.
you just said that there is not "an ounce of fat" on an MBA and they teach you exactly what you need to know when you also just said you forgot 90% of it...
@@thebookwasbetter3650I did a CPA and wrapping up an MBA in 4 months. Everything they teach in the MBA is even more useless than the CPA. I actually can’t think of one concept that I’ll ever use again
I did an MBA (no CPA) and it was the best decision I ever made, but only because it allowed me to complete my education. The degree wasn't worth anything in the end, but the education was priceless; I never would have had the time to complete it otherwise.
Some of this is very fair. However, before I went to an MBA program, I was already a lost soul who was hyper-focused on processes who didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. Now I'm a lost soul who is hyper-focused on processes who doesn't know what I want to do with my life who is extremely good at writing batch scripts and managing inventory according to statistical/ML methods. So overall you can't blame the MBA program for that, but you can credit it for giving me the time to complete the education that I knew I didn't get during undergrad (because I'm a late bloomer). Going back to MBA was the best decision I ever made, although I did get a full ride plus a stipend, so my experience is not typical.
I think the missconception Elon and Peter have is that MBAs arent Entrepreneurs. They are Managers who are there to manage the process that is leading towards the vision of the Entrepreneur. So basically speaking. The Entrepreneur creates either the Service or the Product and maybe even the process around it, but the process needs to be managed so the Entrepreneur can focus on strategical decisions, maybe even creating new Services and Products. And thats what MBAs are there for.
I agree with you. But for solely managing process, I think it's for most of people, not for all of people. A lot of big companies hired MBAs as product managers, I think if solely look at product manager this position, he is correct, you can't simply manage a process without new innovative product. (But if it's very innovative, better start a new company on your own....) For part of his speech, I agree. Many people don't understand what they want, then pursue a Master degree. Maybe in business school, is the same situation. I think what Peter missed but still make his point correct is that, a lot of people are actually process managers, not the managers of their professionalism. They simply follow the company process and create same material over time. I see a lot of project managers who don't know anything about project management, simply follow company process and use his/her specific industry knowledge built from industry experience, then manage project for years. I see the same thing on many Marketing managers. I see the same thing on Sales, Operation, Customer Service. Because of that, I agree with Peter on his point of process. Something I think he missed, so I disagree with him is, some MBAs can also be entrenpenours. Many business school taught about entrenpenourship, I partly disagree with you that MBAs are manager, not entrenpenourshp for this one. The purpose of MBA is to train leaders. Whether it's VP or entrenpeneours, they should all be able to get what they need in MBAs.
These discussions often miss one of the highest value adds of MBAs, and the reason why top MBAs have a ton of international students: it’s a great pathway to get a work visa in a developed country. That’s literally it.
Always thought like this. BA seems to be too abstract and general. I’d like to see more dependence on Industry branch for content. Like he says, it should depend on the object or function. Change of object changes content. Managing airplanes and managing chemical industries should be completely different. So I think it should be included within a branch of activity or object. Not general.
I think when you're not an MBA let alone one from a top school and then are popular you can quote there is a study without referencing the study and the validity of the study based on broad factors haha
I don’t know that phrase either but I’d guess that he’s speaking about people in finance, since London is the finance sector of Europe (at least until brexit).
Nah, business school teaches about the science of management and economics based on research by leading thinkers. People think business is just common sense but they aren’t fully understanding what’s going on. It’s just like saying it’s useless to go to law school, when in fact it helps you to understand the principles of law
@@jaimesmith1086 i have seen so MBA's having no understanding of practical stuff. Had to see my seniors and peers in different universities here at Pakistan. 16 years of education and hardly 3 years of practical and useful knowledge.
Mba graduates need to earn their stripes and learn from the ground up before they can take on leadership roles. Only exception is management trainee programs that are designed for mbas which are more or less company indoctrination tools.
@@paranengmoose7908 friends with mathematics degrees all working in hedge funds, private equity, data science, actuary, investment management, investment Banking... You need the STEM degree to get the job and do the job. How does a quant finance do the work without math/stats degree? How does lawyer work without law degree?
Elon's pal ...want to hear more. Humans - tall, played football, good looking, everyone likes you, went to a rich school ... "You get the boss job!" Last CEO of Macy's, sitting on Cramer's show sucking up the adulation, spinning bs, right as the decline began ... then he quits!
Nobody is passionate about writing useless academic theory papers, but that's what MBA is all about: Systematically destroy creativity :) Test if the MBA is right for you: Open Sciencedirect --> read a paper --> read 5 more papers --> make a summary (CITATION!). There you go, that's an MBA, now go and tell some employer how it empowered and enlightened you :)
"War is peace; Freedom is slavery; Ignorance is strength"...... oder Peter Thiel "Freiheit und Demokratie passen nicht zusammen"...... Das ist Totalitarismus 2.0
He just discribed the government way of thinking... "THE PROCESS" (Lord of the Ring) Just a bunch of process driven statistic gatherers!!! USELESS WAY AND INFORMATION
