"We can't wait for people to rediscover Azeroth in a brand new way in Season of Discovery". Also Blizz : "here, do 40-50 in this 10 meter square zone in a few hours spamming retail crap"
I'm a casual player, and I play SOD for the casual playstyle it lends itself too. I work 5 to 6 days a week 10 hours a day and SOD was perfect for me. I can get off work get a raid done in under 1 hour and call it a day. I'm not the best player in the world, but I don't think I suck either, for Gnomer I was a 85% parser and it went up to 90% when I filter it for ilvl. I said that to say I have no desire for super hard raids in SOD I can play retail if I wanted that mythic face pound. IMO P1 was great I got to try many different classes get them to max lvl, and try them in the raid. P2 I did not even have the time to get my main fully geared before P3 cam out because the vocal few who try to smash everything ASAP and get the world first then cry because they have nothing to do 2weeks after new content is dropped. More and more SOD is starting to feel like a job which is why I stopped playing retail, I have to earn this faction to get this random item, I have to earn 2 or 3 different tokens to get 2 or 3 pieces of gear. It's starting to feel like a chore to log in.
Hard Classic raids are not what most want in classic. Classic is meant to be easier so you can chill with friends and have a good time. Wiping on Eranikus for 20hours as Alliance sucks a BIG D and I'm 10000% certain people will quit this week or next week. If I wanted very hard raids I would have played retail. The amount of consumes spent the last couple days trying to get a boss down cause you don't have a totem. Feels bad
sorry but classic raids WERENT easy at the time. blizzard has to adjust for the sweatlords who ruin the game. actual mechanics that kill you are necessary to filter out "parsers"
@@cole8834 classic wow, all the raids were easy as pie...som, they made em harder...sod even harder...this is not for the avg classic season of dads as they called it... talking sunken temple as Alliance. Players speed run classic to make it harder..they should leave it at that I think.
Raids in classic weren't cleared by casuals week 1, maybe they did with MC but bwl aq40 and naxx casual guilds got stomped out. You had to work at it and get better. They'll nerf the F out it within 2 weeks.
Bingo, them making ST hard is a REALLY bad sign of retail taking over SoD, the rune powercreep and spec homogenization were already worrying signs. KEEP RETAIL AWAY
My thoughts exactly. If I want to play a ton of mechanics and whatnot, I know where retail is. I want the comfort food of Vanilla with some twists that can make my class / spec (tankadin) finally playable and worthwhile. But Vanilla, as a wise man once said, is all about *STANDING AND HITTING*. It's not about double circles of poisons and balls that fall down and instagib the raid, it's not about precision of high logs or shit. In vanilla, if played casually, you can bring 30 people in greens in MC and still clear it without a lot of trouble. In comparison, this means, that freshly leveled 50s without new runes and new items and just some basic Gnome gear should be able to clear the raid within the first lockout - or at least have a decent 5-6/8, *easy*. These mechanics and this mentality belongs to retail.
i just don't understand why people think the devs aren't paying attention to this. They've literally been on top of responding to issues cropping up week after week, this will be no different and they even already nerfed boss health within days, and will likely wait to see peoples performance this week to nerf again if needed. There was literally no PTR for this game so most of these adjustments kinda have to be made on the fly, we are literally the beta testers... it's common knowledge by this point
@@jslaughter95 the problem is most people who actually play the game can understand if number tuning is out of wack just by glancing at them, idk how you can become a game dev and not be able to do basic math, or maybe it's just problem of lack of understanding of the game but when your player base understands number tuning better then you do as dev imo it's problematic not to go on to big of rant about other games, but this is true for league as well people who don't play certain champs attempt to balance them thinking that what they did is going to nerf said champ but it ends up being a massive buff when people who actually play said champ can tell it's buff just by glancing at at the numbers/changes
The leveling was wayyyyyyy too fast and having raids available day 1 is lame as hell it just incentivizes nolifers to gatekeep, doesn't feel like classic at all. Done with SoD. Tryhard parcers already started ruining it last phase, this is just the dagger.
@RichSmithsonYeah, I'm a casual, and I don't have the "parse logs" to be invited easily to content, so I quit. And many casual players I know have also quit now. I feel like you need full gnomeragan bis and good logs to do good in ST.
Only played casually (mainly solo questing, occasional dungeons) in TBC & Wrath. SOD brought me back and was having a blast raiding BFD bc it was VERY doable with consumes and some coordination. Was so excited to be able to do all the Classic raids this time around. My Rogue got left out in Gnomer and now it looks like my Classic raiding dream is dead due to this ST difficulty.
nightmare incursions ruined leveling and also dungeons/gear wont be as important as everyone already has gear they can raid with from leveling in the nightmare incursion event. so whats the point in all the new dungeons we can do. they took the world in classic and shrunk it down into 4 little leveling / daily style zones but without the daily limit on doing the quests
In order to fix the inflation problem they need to make another gold sink. For instance they could add a permanent 10-15% mount speed increase for like 500 gold
i'd say even mechanicallyeranikus feels more like a 1/2/3 mythic boss. like obtainable even by decent heroic guild but not insanely mechanically different. it just feels like numbers wise my group can't quite push it. however that is not a good state for a normal lvl raid boss to be in. people don't have a shot in hell of killing this without a very solid raid group
I really liked the Silithus grind for the Cenarion Cirlce back in 2005. The fact the mobs were kinda hard suppressed the competition so you could really keep your own rhythm once you found it and were "in the zone". I do like farming tho. I think it´s soothing and a cool challenge to min/max the route, rotations etc.. And I had 2 BWL decked out characters, Fury Warrior and a Feral Tank, slightly ahead of the curve. Itemization of the Bear/Cat was horribly complex back then. Had to get gear from all over the place, not just raids. Crafting, World Drops, PvP,, Exalted needed left and right, just.. everything.. It was a constant project in progress. Not to mention the ongoing fight against prejudice. The Cenarion Circle did fill some crucial gaps if I remember correctly. Once the Farmtwink, a Beastmaster Hunter, caught up with some serious Raidgear it got even more of a relaxing breeze as my pig was our Hakkar Tank(pets cannot get mind controlled) for a brief amount of time. They rocked.
yea, difficult pve, unbalanced pvp (have you tried bgs as an alliance player? shamans are literal raid bosses 1v3'ing people with lightning shield doing 60% of their dmg), sod not looking too hot. good video, hope the devs see it and can have courage to scrap cata or devote more development labor to sod
Day 1, or Delayed doesn't matter. SoD, and a large portion of the playerbase is gonna bail and quit playing if Blizzard keeps balancing things toward the top 1% of players. The bulk of WoW players now, the silent "majority", are 30-40 year old dads, with jobs, kids, and responsibilities that don't allow them to spend 6+ hours wiping on a single raid. The tuning of ST is an affront and blatantly insulting to the overwhelming majority of the players.
I don't think the main problem with Nightmare incursions is that they suck so much. Doing them solo and actually completing all quests you get is kind of ok. The problem is that a) it's the most efficient way to level AND that the most effective way to play them is the worst, as you're simply riding around in a circle and sometimes stop to click on a dude.
It sucks because you are forced to do it if you want to play with your friends like I play with my younger brother we’re both married and busy so faster is better unfortunately
It's terrible content. Very poorly designed and not well thought out. Quest only work like half the time. Imagine creating an open world zone with 100s of players running through it like a revolving door AND ONLY PUTTING ONE ITEM THAT EVERYONE HAS TO COMPETE TO CLICK ON.
@Joe-no7gs I wouldn't say so for myself, at least. It is one part of the game that wasn't fun, so I stopped doing it. I'm still enjoying the rest of Phase 3 a lot.
I find it disheartening that it’s apparently too much to ask for competent internal testing. An internal group of testers playing this content for a week would not have found every bug, but they would’ve seen that the raid was overtuned, and they would’ve seen that incursions were giving too much gold. Simple quality checks like these were either not internally done, or were not internally acted on prior to release.
I like the idea of incursions. The quests are highly efficient, all clustered in the same area, everything that classic quests are missing. I also like the reuse of the dream plants from the datamined emerald dream that never got finished, and I think the nightmare zones are pretty cool. However, they don't fix the core problems for questing. Dungeon grinding is still more efficient than questing outside of incursions, and if they nerf incursions people will just go back to ZF. If the quests were a one time thing with some cool new lore and rewarding about 3-4 levels, with some repeatable rep quests afterwards that were slow on exp, then I think I would have liked it quite a lot. I'm 4/8 on Sunken Temple, and it is really fun. However, the health pools are probably still too high for pugs and casuals, at least for the first 4. The mechanics can be quite unforgiving and the fights are so long that your healers can't afford to heal you through a ton of mistakes. Now maybe that's just because my group wasn't pumping out a ton of damage, but neither will pugs. I think if you want to keep casuals around, at least 4/8 should be fairly achievable by almost all players, which will probably take another round of nerfs.
I think you make some really good points and are right about the parse and speed run meta. Most of the time I consider myself a casual but I want to min/max a little. But I would love to see as much of a balance as possible for both sides. I played Vanilla and I mythic raided Legion through BFA. I am happy now raiding on a vanilla+ server 3-4 nights a week for up to 4hrs a night. This allows me to clear MC/BWL/ES/AQ40/Naxx and usually ZG/Kara.
"Cata Classic" is like saying "okay, so in preparation for Classic Shadowlands..." so they should pivot to OSRS-style development of vanilla, maybe tbc+wotlk if they must, but preferably just vanilla
The initial difficulty was probably too much, but I actually appreciate challenging fights where you have to manage mechanics. 17:30 the incursion gold issue was NOT a bug, it was an oversight. Blizzard did not properly measure the impact of those quests. "Abusing" an oversight is completely different than a bug. A bug is something that is not supposed to work the way it does, whereas the incursions worked exactly the way they were supposed to. They we simply not tuned well.
Coming from someone that quit WoW during the OG cata. I had more fun leveling 1-60 in the cata beta than all of phase 2 & 3 combined. I'm dumping SoD and I'm going to try out Project Epoch
This isn't what parses measure. Parses measure throughput. If you watch Ziqo's videos or any of the guys who purposely only pulled in people with 10% parses and then went to one shot all the bosses in Gnomer. Gnomer required mechanics. It didn't require dps. BFD you could beat with strait dps. Gnomer required people to move in and out of electricity or turn off switches. Parses are incapable of computing people's ability to do mechanics.
@@randomandy2023it’s like you glossed over his videos where they DIDNT clear the raid or his videos where it took them 3+ hours to clear gnomeregan. Very few people want that experience.
I actually did like farming Rockfury Bracers because it was hard to solo (especially the 300k boss you had to help kill). But I also viewed it as "extra" content, not at all main content. Something that most players would skip.
I joined a guild and the first thing I was greeted with was Hi can you please put your main spec (which is fine) and also your gear score (this is not fine). Gear score in a seasonal classic game? I started to play a semi casual experience, not to min/max all my stats and dps. It’s insane that I need to use resources out of the game to create a number based on my gear that might keep me from content. Also I think 30 mins into release if they see people getting 4g per quest and 100+ gold an hour they should’ve stopped it there lol.
@@TheXxemarosaxx the people asking for ilvl are definitely not hardcore world first raiders. They’re trying to make themselves sound chad and elite by asking for it, but good players know that sometimes the better gear is just a lower item level in classic. The guild you joined and left will certainly not be competitive to any degree if they don’t know how the game even works lol
And this is how gear in Vanilla and TBC actually meant something. Not everything was accessible to every player. But there was plenty of other options, like ZG, Karazhan etc.. not everyone SHOULD have all the best gear from the hardest bosses.
Since world first race is largely done by the community, why don't we just make up our own set of rules. Start every region's world first "Timer" from the moment their server is actually active. If ITS SUCH A BIG DEAL then just make the playing field equal in advance. Ya'll could have done this years and years ago but people are to petty and not willing to give up their titles regardless if they earned it fair and square.
day 1 is ony good for no job gold buyers. or cheating streamers who get free gold from their viewers. cheaters only want to get things done sooner with their RMT golds.
i play SoD with friends that don't have time to tryhard and sit in a raid for 10 hours, including me. And I dont want to exclude certain ppl because of their class, specc or their skill lvl just to clear a damn lvl up raid. I liked the fact that you could play casually without falling behind, but those who wanted to nolife it could still do it with alts, farm wsg rep, do parsing raids, speedruns etc etc. Who would have thought BFD and p1 would be the pinnacle of SoD (so far)? yes gnomer and ST is probably a better raid, but did we have as fun as p1? no Everything you said in this video was on point bro
I was all in on SoD, turned off all chat , no cheat mods, etc. It was great found clues almost instantly and found 10 of the 12 runes with no help. Then phase 2 came out and i was level 37 and had only found the sleeping bag. Then I just stopped playing.. If you can't seed the clues through normal leveling paths what's the point. Then I discovered WoW Ascension, and I can see were SoD got its inspiration and what Hero Talents are inspired from. For someone who wanted to find the clues myself without Wowhead after phase 1 they just lost me.
I am casual and new to wow (less than a year). I play around 3 days per week, 2-5 hours/ day maximum depending on my agenda and I switched to Classic because I knew it is slower and more casual than Retail (in Retail I did only LFR). Gnomer felt a bit hard because many people wanted logs and so on and I won't install shit. I did Gnomer 4 times basically. I understand the people who gate keep too as there are people who don't mind the mechanics and that's the entire idea of a raid but hell, some people are really try harders and I do not understand it Now seeing how hard ST is I doubt I will have any chance so I will just do quests, get the pre bis or idk, do higher level quests with others for better gear if they are available and do PVP. The problem is most people like me will just give up and the whole idea was to make the game a casual game (because it is Classic after all and the whole hype was from casual sphere and not the try harders) so yea, see you in the open world lol
@@tylerm6080 yeah but it's all a choice. Sure u can chose to level that way which imo is brain dead and boring but to each their own or u can chose to take ur time doing dungeons and questing.. It didn't make the other methods obsolete because obsolete means u can't level any other way at all which u can it just takes longer.. It's only 10 levels and it's a 50% buff regardless it shouldnt take long
@@tylerm6080if you for some reason HAVE to be among the first to be level 50 then sure you'll have to level that way.. But majority don't need to level that fast. The content isn't going anywhere the game will be there still by the time it takes u to get there i promise. Sure some things will get nerfed but that's just how it is
3:08 it’s a multi billion dollar company servers in my opinion should be up and ready when they say they are going to be. They just push customers away when it’s not working. This is my opinion. You’re right though they never get it 100% so we shouldn’t expect it to work true. Well either way just glad the EU got on eventually. 😢
imagine caring about world first integrity in a phase where you can max lvl in 3 hours if you happened to be one of the first to realize how lucrative it is and then kept it to yourself lmao. its like letting people in on crypto/bitcoin.. you don't actually want them to let them in on it... you know "get it" because once they get it they become a competitor moreso than a friend in a future economy... precisely same concept for SOD incursions... "exploit early, exploit often" but the quiet third part goes "and don't tell anyone". BRO THESE INCURSIONS ABSOLUTELY HAS TO GO. YESTERDAY. CHOP CHOP. PLEASE JUST DELETE THEM AND DON'T REPLACE THEM WITH ANYTHING ELSE, I DON'T WANT ANY COMPENSATION, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. JUST. GET. RID. OF. INCURSIONS.
Haven’t played since getting my first rune at level 6 and deciding this isn’t for me. Hope they’ll do a 2019 relaunch some day! That’s the only wow version Id play.
Blizzard caught lighting in a bottle and then spent decades losing it, to then get a second chance at that magic to only go down the same path that leads to Shadowlands yet again...
They should put in heroic modes, and leave it at that. Have a casual friendly normal mode, and then a heroic mode that's tuned the way it is currently.
i love when streamers have a take on people, who work for a living that they shouldn't be upset for taking a vacation day and feeling like it wasn't worth taking that PTO. you get to play every day all day as much as you want maybe not share your opinion on people who have to work for a living, considering it isn't the same
P3 killing it for me, i going back to Wrath to prepare for Cata now! Blizzard is such A morons nowdays why do we need to pay sub fee for this shit? I love WoW has doing it for soon 20 years, but we getting turds after turds.
Honestly incursions were the best way of leveling that wow has ever delivered, after the gold nerf. Make decent gold, and a fast and easy leveling experience. Questing has been a shit way to level forever and dungeon spam has always been faster but you just want to claw your eyes out
This is probably my last sod time dump I'm not giving blizz my money for this anymore.. Blizzard took leveling out of the game, gives you 6 blue upgrades for lvl 50 and most players who started on launch are sitting on a massive amount of gold, me included. I leveled 2 of my chars to 50 in 7 hours of gameplay and have over 400g on both... Get into ST on my lock who I mained from day 1 to share loot with 6 other warlocks in the raid comp. The goobers were in voice chat trying to parse on our first ST run ignoring boss mechanics because these ball bags were melee hunter mains in p2 who kept switching to which ever class is doing more dmg it's so stupid...
Also I'm gonna guess there's a sizeable number of old school players like me who are casual and good at the game. They'll probably be no pug raid to blag into this time. Only chance is the day before reset when there's nothing to lose.
I think the incursions are fine as something to break up the grind. But they were way overtuned, obviously. If they were on par with questing & dungeons for exp per hour, it wouldve been a cool addition. But they fukked it up....
Raid release should be delayed. Because you have thousands of super nerds that haven’t touched the concrete outside of their front door in years who power level to 50 in less than a day and go clear the raid within a couple days of release.
People will gatekeep regardless. It’s not a content=gatekeeping . I seen people gatekeeping ZF leveling groups lol. Asking for 90+ parses . People gatekept BFD . It’s a community problem not a content problem , not a blizz problem .
i said this on comeback kids channel too, the devs dont play the game, they didnt even inhouse test it, or they would have seen the problems with just 1 round of turn ins
Honestly, I was discouraged from gnomer, I might do one while leveling but I'm lvl 46 now. I am probably looking to do the same with ST, only do some at 60...
EU launch got shafted so hard. Also also: "too hard for *average* guilds" - Aggrend. What a shitty thing to say. Sorry that my 20yr subscription and playing of this game, now that I am older and have less time to play make me an "average" person in an "average" guild. What a way to treat your loyal customers.
In original classic the raids got hard as level progressed, even if it’s hard it hold true to original wow classic. Sometimes the answer is not to have the dev team fix the issue, its the community needs to change.
If they think ST is too hard, wait until Onyxia and MC… which the Burning Crusade gamers never experienced the original classic raids. The Onyxia raid people had to have full fire resist gear with fire resist consumes, and had to go through all the phases of difficulty; same with MC. They nerfed it and everyone wore DPS gear, and kill the bosses in their first phase and never even see the boss macanics. This topic is the same shit that has been going on since 2004, and retail has always had this issue. It’s just the new generation of wow gamers are just rediscovering the same repeating issues. Original Classic was really hard and gate kept, so you want this easy mode Classic is nothing like Classic at all.
And! - people used to have to watch the threat meters like a hawk, as pulling aggronoff the tank would be a wipe. So taking that away too, made everyone focus on DPS only.
I’m down with the raid being super hard, but only for like a day or 2!! Like if ppl are fighting for worlds first then whoever beats it wins. Not like the rest of the population was really ready on day 1 or 2 for the raid. But the incursions are just dumb. I like the gold but damn the xp was just too much. We didn’t need to see so many lvl 50s on day one.
Looking like unsubbing was the right call XD. I only came back to try out SoD. About a 0% chance I touch Cata. I was one of the early people getting Earthstrike back in the day Classic Re-release. Can say without a shadow of a doubt. One of the most painful things to do. I could imagine it on a PVP server..
So the gold issue wasn’t 10x more we got 5G a turn in and now it’s 1g 20s but yes we didn’t know it was to much was just excited once we noticed but so far the new content isn’t bad it’s fun high population and the raid should stay as it is casual players shouldn’t expect to clear the hardest content in the game with bis gear in there first three weeks it’s an mmo rpg guys it takes a time commitment you know that going into it we’re not playing Fortnite
Regarding people being mad at not being get in at launch time, surely by now after multiple shit launch days going back to the beginning of time, they would understand it could be awful? Any sensible person leaves it until the next day at the least.
Is it possible to farm Emerald Warden rep without doing incursions?? Incursions with the gold bug aside, is nothing but new questing zones. So yeah, nothing too exciting about them unless you are someone that had already went around completing the quest zones you could do in phase 2 now you have new quests. I did them for like 15 min and was so bored I went back to dungeon grinding. Saw the BiS caster dagger drop my first run in Mara and an enhancement shaman got it... (I'm a Boomy/Resto Druid)
Have to disagree... Cata is alot beter then most balshit they are making now so if something have to go is retail.... Cata pvp(honer/conquest) Pve (justic/valor) just so god sistem + you can cap weakly day one or day 7 in a weak not forced to rush or anything....alot more casual friendly then most people think...yeah the world change I get it nostalga gone.... but most of the sistem in cata was realy god, the only one that have to go is LFR
So basically SoD, just like Classic in general, is being ruined by stuff coming from retail (parsing, gatekeeping,...). Sadly I don't think there's much to be done, since this tendency is being brought by retail players. I'll stick to Classic vanilla from now on i guess.
the casuals breathe life into this game. Casuals can enjoy a game that's got a high difficulty ceilling, but it can't be all there is. You also can't delete the fucking main grind Classic had going for it. The actual fuck.
Thank you for that last remark: We want more SoD and Cata Classic should be cancelled. No one wants it. It's not where efforts should be spent. Give us more SoD/Classic+
@@yoboyobodrank purely the PvP, I am not planning in raiding at ALL (in sod I raid twice a week though). The PvP in sod is a let down and I just want to have real pvp, duels arena and battlegrounds and luckily I can get all the gear I need for PvP just by PvPing in cata.
Not sure if what most people had in mind with "classic+" was classic skin with retail features in a parsing culture, SoD seems pretty far as u can get from classic imo
If ppl dont wana take 10min out of their day to look up mechanics of a boss or how to effectively use their class then fuck em, they can get kicked from raid. These devs gotta stop listening to ppl who dont understand how to work with a team of ppl its ruining competitive and higher tier pve gaming “oh i play for fun” then dont play a gamemode thats supposed to be difficult or challenging especially if you dont wana listen to the ppl who know what to do cause to the higher skilled ppl their “fun” is completing the higher difficulty stuff.
Attempting world first, let alone caring about world first for SOD is so cringe. They destroyed ST raid so that less than 1% of players can sweat their balls off trying to WF. Incredibly stupid.
This phase sucks. I hate doing spamming mindless content like wild offerings. I cant stand doing incursions! The quests drop into your bag, WHY?!?!?! all I have left do do outside of raiding is collect wild offerings again as I have changed spec to feral and span incursions for gold and rep. I just cant be fucked anymore. Its just mindless brain dead BS just like the staff at Blizzard.
I don't think I am alone on this, but P1 was the best. All of the fun and discovery was front loaded and it lost momentum massively each phase. I still respect blizzard for the honest shot at this project, but it seems like it was just a one hit wonder. The issues are getting redundant and predictable with balancing and creative content they add. I can complain all day, but I can't do a better job than they did. I did end up canceling my sub after a few weeks of P2. Wish I quit sooner but hey, live and learn.
