7 years active duty this September. I would rather be homeless than stay in and be a Department Head in a V-22 squadron. I’m kinda joking, but I’m also kinda not. The aircraft readiness is on the decline, and the flight hours just aren’t there unless you’re a very senior instructor. The admin and collateral duties just keep adding up and taking more time away from family. The fact that 2-3 year non-flying tours are even a thing. Employing pilots to do jobs in the squadron that a ground battalion has formal school-trained officers for. Money is the last reason I want to just get out and go to the airlines. I joined the Marine Corps because I wanted to fly, and for reasons I’ve yet to figure out, the Marine Corps doesn’t seem to care about or value that. At all. The military does the retention problem to itself.
I saw little point in staying in when the ROE wouldn't let us fight effectively; when the war dragged on with no discernible strategy; when you weren't really home even when you were home; when catering to >cough< popular social issues continued to become important than warfighting; and when there were not enough good leaders to offset the bad ones; the state of our exit from Afghanistan said it all about that.
So true. I got out in ‘99 as the Navy was down sizing. I was considering transferring to the Marine Corps but my CO at the time reminded me that the Marine Corps is not run by aviators (kinda like UPS). I was offered F-16s by the Airforce one year unaccompanied to South Korea. When I asked about follow on flying orders I was told they don’t do that. I was also warned by other Airforce officers about commitments and non-flying jobs. I ran the numbers and considered my family. Made the decision to get out. 911 happened a few years later. Lived through furlough and the lost decade. I tell you, I have no regrets. I just went to the 30 year reunion of the squadron where I was an IP. Phenomenal group of guys. Proud to have served with them. The military definitely made me who I am, but the airlines are a better life. I can’t even encourage my kids to join the military aside from a guard job. Oh, and I forgot to mention. I retired from the reserves as an O-5 after 26 years (could have stayed 28) because they needed a body in the desert with TacAir experience and a Clearance. I hadn’t done TacAir in 20 years and and my Clearance was expired. They kept lowering the requirements and going between me and my buddy until we both decided to retire. This was at a time when they were short Instructors too. The reservist motto, “I quit once, I can quit again”.
Great video! I feel the emotional tension between everyone. Like a wide list of complaints that is recognized but is kept on the down low to avoid repercussions.
About 1/2 the leadership I encountered during 20 years of AD service was absolutely the worst...I mean bordeine personality disorders. I sabotaged my own career just so I could get orders I wanted. I spent the last 6 years AD in Japan (10 years total time) loving life as a dead end O4 and rolled into retirement. I would not have traded anything I did just to make O5 and go from one miserable set of orders to another.
Robin Olds pulled a Maverick.....they wanted to promote him and he purposefully didn't rank up because he wanted to keep flying ....man after my own heart 👊🏽
I recommend reading or listening Top Gun by Dan Pederson. He talks about a similar retention crisis the military had in the post Veitnam Era. It's puts a lot of things in perspective, especially how the military goes into these cycles of bad leadership with good warfighters.
Hey Gonky. One last try and I’ll stop bugging you. I’ve finished my screenplay and I’d love to get you to look at a few scenes that involve flying a super hornet and landing on a carrier. If you can help that would be great.
I never wanted to be an airline pilot…I was happy flying Blackhawks and later Apaches…and then…terrible leadership, time away from home, family suffers, mission literally goes away or gets ignored and then who are you actually fighting for? I’m a corporate jet pilot now and a year or so away from taking a job at a Major. Please forgive me when I correct you on the firing of incompetent leaders. That hasn’t happened since WW2 and I would be amazed if it happened in any future conflict unfortunately. Other than that You guys hit the nail on the head.
my leadership was toxic and that was in the early 80`s, the flying was nill as their were no threats, we flew the east germany border (ELINT) a lot but CONUS crews struggled to get enough hrs to stay current, was such a sad time.. so glad I went commercial aviation (airlines) . But miss my buds and we still talk and visit.
I wasn't an aviator, but getting out of the Army was the best thing I ever did. The leadership and culture of the Army was completely broken when I left in 2011. I don't miss Fort Bragg in the least, and I would not recommend my son join up as I am sure nothing has changed since then.
There is a very relevant book called “On the Psychology of Military Incompetence” It goes into some stuff down in the weeds that might be too much, but the intro and first couple chapters are spot on.
The hardest thing is when the military seems to want you to work to be able to do your job. So many roadblocks that are the member's responsibility to fix just I can do my primary duty.
Not in the military, however the issues you guys outlined leadership and promotion wise ( all theoretically speaking of course ) is a huge issue across nearly every industry ive been in over the last 20ish years. Currently a huge issue in the emergency service im in. Though I do suspect having the best of the best in leadership roles in the military is somewhat more important than any other organisation. The flaws or incompetencies would become abundantly more obvious and dare i say dangerous in certain situations.
2 years of training and 10 year contract is too much to swallow when the money is better nearly everywhere and that is IF your recruiter ever gives a dam about your interest in commissioning. The retention problem starts at the door. The recruiting is horrific now.
there is NO SHORTAGE OF APPLICANTS. They just can't train new applicants fast enough to account for people leaving (Fighters, Heavies, IPs, etc.). Plus since pilots are Officers first the shortage of officers in staff positions leads to extra duties being thrusted on pilots. The recruiter part is huge first barrier to overcome. For example: my only Officer recruiter for AF is 3 hours away in the next town. I'd have to plan a full day to just physically walk into their office and convince them that I am a good pilot applicant compared to the hundreds of other applicants doing the same. (i've tried emailing and calling multiple times and got no response) Plus let's say I get to go take the tests and pass, apparently it take 8-12 months just to process a package to go to OCS (the whole time recruiters are trying to sign you up for NAV/ SWO/ RPA or some other non-rated job). I need a good job in this economy to keep me afloat during that time. And let's say they don't cancel OCS and postpone like they did others in 2019-2020. Then after graduating OCS there's ANOTHER WAIT (Casual Status) of up to a 1-1.5 years doing other Officer jobs waiting to go to UPT!!! Then after doing UPT for 2 years your CONTRACT OF 10 YEARS FINALLY STARTS. All in all it is going to take about 12-14 years of your life in actuality. And let's not even mention Affirmative Action going on, barring potentially good applicants based on skin color/ gender so top brass can check boxes. Or the litany of complaints about extra non-flying related duties (QUEEP) affecting mission readiness If you're in your early twenties and want to fly fighters by 24/26 you're good. If you're 24/25 applying RIGHT NOW you'd be about 28-30 range on contract start and fighter squadrons don't like older applicants typically. In the same 2.5+ years I could be waiting to get into the flight training I could've have potentially spent that same time getting flight ratings, getting paid better in the civilian sector, and with better quality of life. You're telling me in the civilian sector I ONLY GET PAID TO FLY? The choice seems obvious after a little research
I was an Army Brat. We moved every three to four years which felt normal to me. I enlisted with the goal of making the Army my career too. Unfortunately I ETS'd, for personal reasons, which I quickly regretted. My civilian jobs (design engineer in the automotive industry) wasn't as I envisioned. Formerly we always thought the Army was terribly unorganized and massively screwed up. Nope! I learned that senior Management in civilian companies aren't better. Actually, those I encountered were totally screwed up with emphasis on maximum profit the next two years and then off to another company. "Mission First, People Always was (still is?) the US Military motto. My experience in the civilian word is, "Money first, Screw Anything Else". My Army life was good to my family and to me, which I didn't appreciate at the time. I regret not having served my 20 or 30 years with Uncle Sam. It's down to personal choice. I'd encourage most people to enlist, get trained, see if that's the life for you and then make a more long-term decision.
_Good on yuh for this._ Moments I got I wrote, in part: _"I had some shiet-hot jobs ... yada-blah but _*_//nuthin'// compared to SigInt for CDA$375/month (1973)."_*
This was good info and a very hard decision to make at that 10-year mark, and everyone has their own lives to make that decision, thank you Gonky, Polly!
Kinda reminds of of replying to yungins "Should I enlist". Years in the future, are you gonna look over your shoulder with cudda/wudda/shudda? *_Go with the force!_* 🙂
It's unfortunate that some leaders in the military just don't really care about the tear and sweat people putting in to do their dangerous work. I understand it's not always about money but it really helps. But I think it's pretty much everywhere. There are people with good job and still don't like what they do after 10 years. That's just the nature of human being. We get bored easily.
Career track vs technician is the same to some degree for the enlisted side..you make it past E6 into the Senior NCO world your now stuck doing non mission stuff, babysitting, and around the commander types...
I've lost all confidence in the DoD, the pay is terrible, quality of life sucks, the shot, politics etc. My time enlisted definitely convinced to pursue my ATP instead.
If the Navy wants more pilots then send the Nuke 03s to UPT for their shore rotation. LASIK eye surgery can turn Nuke maniacs into fighter maniacs. There is no shortage of young men willing to fly for the Navy. Politically incorrect but correct. Don’t send the ass kissers. Send the maniacs. If a West Point Grad can be CO of Ike, anything is possible. If an 03 can make the bird farm stand on its hind legs and howl, then send him. If he wants to fly at night in February in the North Atlantic, that’s the man for the jet. Mission is always number one. The ship is number two. The enlisted crew is number three. Officers don’t make the short list. You fight like you fly. It’s a big ocean. It’s shit weather. As we used to say in the fleet, “life is a bitch, then you die”.
Long shot, but with regards to mitigating this attrition within the Pilot role, will the US Military ever entertain a foreign nationals intake for joining in an officer capacity? As it stands, you must be naturalised or a born Citizen, this is a time frame that takes up to 5 years. If required would the Military ever forgo this and allow Green Card holders or offer an accelerated route for foreigners willing to join?
For non-US navies, do you think STOBAR or STOVL carriers are more effective? (like in France, UK, India's case) or CATOBAR no matter what? I wonder if it affects pilot training length too
The UK were initially going to acquire the F35C and have cat and traps. I think that would have been the better option over the B. More fuel and payload.
UK Royal Navy enthusiast here, I can confirm the F35-B varient is borderline useless: overweight, overtime (delivery) and overpriced, for a not as capable a multirole platform in comparison to the FA2 Harriers from 2000’s.
As a young soldier, prone to questions like *_"WTF_*_ was France doing trying to recolonize IndoChina?!!"_ ... "How on earth do we shed an incompetent officer commanding?" see *_"Band of Brothers"_*
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sUE5rz-VF4I.html "The cold rain is relentless. Huddled in the mountains, the Gis are soaked, weary, miserable. One might say it was hell on Earth but these men know better." "In his first starring movie role, James Garner plays Col. William Darby and directs Darby's Ranger, as elite commandos trained in assault tactics. Exposed to greater front-line danger, their losses were high -- but so was their courage." Why we do what we do? see *_Ranger Creed_* ^5
All of you commented on the Leadership in the USAF, Navy and Army and how political things have become as you move up the ranks. Does commissioning path play into promotions? Academy/ROTC vs. OCS
If you are an officer in the military, you are commissioned. If you are commissioned you are on a set track to be promoted and take on more command. If you are a pilot the higher in rank you go, the LESS you fly. Once people get into positions of power they can start inflicting their own agendas on everyone below them. And people currently at the top typically like to promote those who are just like themselves like Casmo said, "If Gonky is like Mover but Casmo is not. Then Mover is going to promote Gonky" It all rolls downhill
I was an NFO 20 years AD, ROTC guy. The squadrons in my platform did not seem to let commissioning source play a role in fitness reports (ranking in FITREPS is the ultimate determining factor). However, you REALLY have to be a political animal and be able to go along to get along in your fight to number 1 in a ranked group.
#Lateral - I brought up retirement age for airline pilots. When is "old" uhhhh *hmmmm* _where was I_ ... *_oh yaa,_* when is "old" a metric of ability? p.s. FWIW: "Peace is crappy for warriors" ... _what was the movie?_
Man this is good. 7:50 My nomenclature: *_opportunistic careerists._* Usually cynical, i.e. lacking empathy and dedication to mission. In my field? there's policy ... we argue about how to make the world better. And then there's *_P_* olitics. How to gain power. see 9:29 *S!* (in my crew, that was a salute. ^5 is just high five /*grin*/) heehee #Orthogonality ... #Autopoeisis :-)
