No doubt the United pilot heard the previous radio transmissions. Once he was told to move without delay, he knew EXACTLY why and what the consequence would be if he didn't comply.
That's actually a good idea BirdMan. As an example one could rig the PAPI lights to flash 4 Red repeatably to signal a go around, in addition to the radio comms.
I was the controller and I can tell you that you go into overdrive and even listening to myself I can’t believe I could say all that so quickly. Not to toot my own horn but to unsong heroes here’s a toast 🎉
This is great. Once realizing 781 was flying deaf, that controller really sent it... Shifted into full auctioneer mode and got quick berth for that bird!
This happened at Atlanta, the busiest airport in the world. I'm sure the United pilot - hearing ATC call the same aircraft SIX times for a go-around - perked up immediately, particularly since they were crossing a runway at the time.
Less so isn't working, more so was accidentally turned off or stopped working without knowledge to the pilots. Pilot workload is high on landing and if they were already cleared to land, they especially might not be thinking about the radio
Actually right after touchdown they came back on radio saying they had an issue with it, guess it magically came back to life after landing and proceeded to not have a problem anymore.. this whole transcript of the air canda 781 incident is in a vid from vas aviation btw
The asshole has authorised the landing with traffic taxing and call a go around with no reason, the pilot should have thrown the aircraft on the tower, that would be well deserved
Makes you kind of wonder how many times a day around the world that something like this happens, and civilians just never know. I actually find channels like this absolutely fascinating.
Happened to me last month. Except I couldn’t transmit (only receive). Once I eventually found out, squawked 7600 and used my Bluetooth headset to call the tower for a landing clearance
for lost coms the controller should have attempted to use the light gun signal. He might have been doing this, and it wasn't recorded. But also it makes more sense then telling him 6 times to around and waiting till the last second to deconflict the traffic
@@vasaaviarion like rocking the wings or flashing the lights? Absolutely. In my situation, I was trying to make initial contact with others, but nobody was acknowledging me. I didn’t wanna enter the zone without making radio contact. So I did a rate 1 turn over a spot with cell reception until I was able to make contact with the FSS (airport was a MF)
An FAA investigation said that the radio WAS indeed working, the pilots just decided to switch it to the ground frequency prematurely so they didn't hear any of the instructions from the tower. Thankfully the controller was mistaken and the plane that he thought was on the runway had already cleared it before Air Canada 781 landed. The cause of the incident was determined to be pilot error.
So what happened to the terrorists? Because willingly flying hundreds of people into a congested airport while ignoring safety directions is nothing less!
Never switch your radio to ground until ATC tells you to. Controller did a good job moving the traffic. The idiot pilots should not be allowed to fly again. FAA should yank their licenses.
The video is not from Air Canada 781. Air Canada 781 was landing in San Francisco, and this video is clearly not a landing at SFO. Also, Air Canada 781 landed at 9:30 PM. It would have been dark outside.
@@jah0524 you are completely correct about this video not matching the audio. Thank you for pointing that out because I would have taken it as presented and never would have looked into it, like I usually do. I’m not attacking or criticizing when I bring this next part up. I did catch one small mistake in your reply though. Air Canada 781 is a daily flight from YUL - LAX, which is Montreal to Los Angeles. It’s scheduled to depart at 6:15 PM from Montreal and usually scheduled to arrive at 9:41 PM. I hope that more people see your reply
Atc guy that day earned his pay hundreds of people alive thanks just to that one man if only those onboard new what had just happened I think they would like to say a big thank you for living another day
How did the ATC officer "save lives" when the AC781 flight could not hear his instructions and therefore didn't react to them. They had been cleared to land before and at the time they landed the runway had been cleared already
@@EFFEZE was that also AC or just another plane in Canada, the landing on the unmanaged runway with active snow equipment? Either way, AC are an embarrassment sometimes.
@@EFFEZE that was at an airport that was uncontrolled at the time of the incident, and it was found that their #2 radio they were making calls on was indeed faulty. Making calls at an uncontrolled aerodrome with no response is normal so they didn't have an indication anything was wrong til the last moments.
Yup, good situational awareness on the part of the on-ground pilots. They knew where they were, heard what was going on with the landing aircraft, and were probably spooling up engines just waiting for instructions.
Because oddly in the US they clear multiple aircrafts to land on the same runway when in Europe you're cleared when you're the one on final and runway is cleared
Nope. You are only cleared once the runway is clear. There could be multiple planes lined up and on final, only the first one gets cleared. They may have missed the call. I find it a bit odd on the read backs when the controller was clearing the runway. Just a repeat of their call sign would have sufficed, not tying up the frequency.
Can confirm that here in the US, multiple aircraft can be cleared to land in sequence, conditions permitting, with some restrictions. The system worked exactly the way it is supposed to. Good work ATC.
Arguably having an aircraft carrier style wave-off system would have helped. If the runway could be lit up to signal a fouled runway, the pilots, even if their radios are on the wrong channel or not working, would immediately see it’s unsafe.
There is actually a system already in place, it just isn't used any more in most places. A red flare shot up into the sky tells a pilot without comms to go around. I just haven't heard of many modern examples of this being used.
As a pilot, why didn't he abort once he saw the plane on the runway? I work at the Indianapolis airport and I'd say I see an aborted landing about once a month.
@@southern-skies-angels77 They are useless for commercial jets. No pilot of such jets are looking at the tower during landing. My guess is that someone switched accidentally to the wrong frequency.
@@KjartanAndersen Several people have commented the investigation showed they'd inadvertently switched to the ground frequency after they got their clearance to land.
It doesn't make a difference, it's just more efficient and less stressful to issue the clearance ahead of time. The problem here was the Air Canada crew switched to ground frequency after getting their landing clearance.
@@nocalsteve You mean *normally* it makes no difference, but ultimately it's one more way in which a mistake or unlikely malfunction can lead to a barrier being broken, although it's also possible that the expectation of a landing clearance can make you imagine getting one.
If you listen to tower frequencies at just about any commercial airport, you’ll hear landing clearance given to more than one plane at a time for the same runway. There is spacing and clearance can be canceled… if the pilots don’t go off-frequency prematurely.
@@hornbaker if you listen to a tower frequency at virtually any commercial airport outside of the US you don't hear that procedure. Must be some reason behind that, don't you think?
I'm a big fan of air traffic controllers, how calm they remain under such stressful situations is just extraordinary. Training alone can't do this, they are just born calm too.
It wasn't a radio failure, it was an accidental switching of the channel. They figured it out after they landed and realized they weren't communicating with the tower for taxi instructions. FAA investigated and concluded the story was correct. They should've noticed the lack of other traffic but...
@@mfree80286 The FAA investigated the incident and their report agreed with the pilots' story while not complaining about a lack of data. While the recording was never released, I feel sufficiently confident that they found evidence to support the pilots' story
Never had an issue with them myself. British Airways, on the other hand… only time I ever flew them, their shitty, outdated system for scheduling flights broke down entirely when we landed, and literally paralyzed the entirety of Heathrow airport for like 36 hours. For context… this system was running on Windows 95 in 2019. At one of the busiest airports on Earth, managed by one of the biggest airlines on Earth. I got stuck in Gatwick overnight… and had to fly out on Aer Lingus instead. (They were absolutely amazing, too!)
As a pilot, I can tell you that the plane on final has the best view of the runway, and can tell if the landing would interfere with aircraft on the ground.
I agree. Had the aircraft on the ground still been on the runway when the approaching plane was closer to the threshold, the pilots of the approaching plane would have seen it and their training would have kicked in and they would have gone around on their own accord. However, the aircraft on the ground cleared the runway at that point (because ATC expedited them), so there was technically no reason - legal or logistical - to go around anymore. Once South West cleared the runway, it was legal and safe for Air Canada to land.
Yeah! Those pilots have the BEST view of the whole thing. That’s why there’s never been disasters like Tenerife, or almost-disasters like Air Canada 759!!
The best view only applies to VFR conditions. Need to be able to see to avoid. I have seen deer on the runway while on short final more than once. @@N3ASL8EN
I don't believe Air Canada had radio problems - their radio worked fine once they landed. Hope they got seriously reprimanded. Thank GOD the aircraft on the ground had eyes and ears on the situation. Bravo to the ATC.
You can believe whatever you want. That's why we have investigations (which cleared the Air Canada crew of any wrong doing) so that we can stick to the facts and don't have to go with someones gut.
The tower controller deserves a metal for clearing the runway as quickly as he did! Y’all in a situation with that much stress, he saved hundreds of lives with his quick actions, staying cool under pressure.
Really….saved hundreds of lives? Bit of a stretch, ATC local controller just managing the runway. This happens from time to time not the big deal it’s being made out to be.
AC781 going nordo, getting lost on the frequencies, not paying attention and suffering from numerous CRM/TEM deficiencies not withstanding, does anyone really think AC781 would have blindly landed on top of someone or otherwise not taken action to avoid an incursion, like go around on her/his own. Two pilots were were still at the controls of AC781, perhaps even an ACM in the jumpseat. Just because AC781 didn’t have a landing clearance and still landed, although an error, doesn’t warrant this degree hand wringing. The local ATC guy was just managing the runway.
Aircraft controllers and pilots are similar to doctors and nurses to me. You can't properly do the job without each other and they both affect the life and death of people. Having more than one soul to account for at the same time is extremely stressful. I am so thankful to the people who are able to do these jobs because I know I can't. ❤
Is the tower not equipped with a signal lamp? They could have signaled Air Canada flashing red signal(Airport unsafe, do not land). Still, kudos to the controller for avoiding that fiery mess.
The controller did give the crew the red light signal for going around, but it's unlikely a pilot will see it unless they're actually looking for it. The problem was that one of the pilots switched to the ground frequency after getting the landing clearance.
I guess they have to put it somewhere where the pilots will never miss seeing them. Losing radio or accidental freq switching is bound to happen to anyone. It has already occurred and will happen again, and when it happens there needs to be a quick alternative of reaching the pilots in this critical phase of flight.
For context, there are any number of reasons why the pilot could not respond. Emergencies always take priority, and coms failure itself is an emergency. As they say... Aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order. The first priority is the safety of your plane and passengers. The tower did exactly what they were supposed to do and everyone was safe because of it.
They switched their radios to ground frequency after getting clearance to land. There was nothing wrong with the radios and a lot wrong with the pilots.
@@MeerkatADV It is an easy mistake to make. It is good to set the next frequency in advance so you switch with a single button press when you need to. That means it only takes one incorrect button press to switch early.
@@MeerkatADV I believe the second radio is used for getting ATIS, talking to dispatch or tuned to guard if unused. ATC is always on the first radio (unless the first radio breaks). Each radio has two frequencies - one that it is tuned to and one that it is ready to switch to.
Unlike in the rest of the world US ATC will issue landing clearances before the runway is completely vacated expecting it to be cleared before touch down. Anywhere else ATC will delay the landing clearance.
Which should mean if you're going to cross or leave a runway in a taxiing craft, you need to watch for incoming no matter what ATC said, and never stop and sit there.
Ahh Air Canada - ignoring ATC instructions, nearly landing on taxiways, crash landing an airplane and claiming it to be an ‘incident’ instead of a serious accident. Typical AC.
That air traffic controller doesn't learn very quickly. Thank God he finally gave some additional orders at the last possible second. Thank God there's more than one way to skin a cat!
NO Respect for that Steve guy at JFK . You American ATC ( Not All ) , should learn from the Brits at London Heathrow. Cool - Professional - Standard English ATC Phraseology. B 747 - B 777 - B 767 - DC 8 71 - B 707 - B 727 - A 321 - CE 550 - DH 115 Vampire - A 37 Dragonfly - T 37 - King Air - etc etc ...
The tower does have red-green-white signal lights that the controllers can use to give instructions to aircraft, but they're pretty much useless unless the pilots are specifically looking for them.
Malfunctions can always happen during flight, however there are backups for radio but I don’t know the whole story here. Personally If I was a controller I would do a radio check with them to see if they’re listening or not or I would tell the planes on the ground to move by the second unanswered call, not the 5th-6th.
@@FlyingIceman198 I believe the other pilots on the ground were also listening and ready to move. They must have heard ATC not getting a reply from AC. I agree, he waited longer than I was comfortable with in telling the others to move.
i think i saw a longer video for this one , if i am not mistaken Air Canda informed the tower after landing that they were having an issue with the Radio
This is why you should NEVER give "Cleared to land" unless it really IS cleared to land, and not that crappy US way where they Clear to land even with obstruction on runway.
That's not how we do it in the air industry, and that's why it's so safe. Other places people can't admit their mistakes and we never find out what happened or how to prevent it.
From reading other comments here (making an effort on my own, instead of asking the first question that comes to mind and wait for someone else to make the effort to reply to me): AC781 was given landing clearance, and during final approach they accidentally switch their radio to ground frequency, thus not able to hear the calls from Tower. One other aspect is that US airports give multiple "clear to land" to multiple planes at once, thus before the runway is actually cleared. All in order to increase airport efficiency (more landings and take offs per hour). When the runway wasn't cleared in time as expected, ATC wanted to cancel their clearance to land by ordering a "go around", but then the plane's radio was already tuned to ground frequency by accident.
@@Trotters79 I don't have to tell that to the FAA. ICAO knows, it's just that the FAA thinks that they have to cook their own soup just like with phraseology.
@@MeerkatADV Because the runway DID GET CLEARED, just as the pilots were expecting. In USA, ATC grant CTL to several planes in sequence, even though the runway isn't clear when CTL is issued. Then the pilots monitor the runway and abort (go around) if the runway isn't cleared in time. This time, as most times, the RWY did get cleared in time, and the pilots of AC781 landed safely. Just as they expected to. Being prematurely switched to GND frequency, one would think the pilots would notice a different kind of radio communication than expected on TWR frequency during their final, but that's a different discussion than this thread of comments.
Trotters why did you post twice? And this happened at 9:30pm in full darkness. The controllers even attempted a visual wave off with the light gun and were ignored. The pilots couldn't see if the runway was clear or not, and apparently weren't paying attention to the big flashing red light telling them to go around. They messed up big time.
@@MeerkatADV Which is why airplanes have various lanterns and anti collision strobes. When you see all of them move outside the RWY limits, you assume the RWY is cleared - unless you hear someone telling you otherwise. Now, the incident about the taxiway in July same year (2017) raises a whole lot more concerns. It was a much closer call. Also, the lights outlining the taxiway doesn't match those outlining an active RWY, and FOUR lighted and flashing planes moving where you intend to land should all be signs that you're not supposed to land there. Yet they nearly did, avoiding collision with something as little as 50 feet. There's a lot of more questions to be asked in THAT incident. As for the red light gun in October: "Cox said he was not surprised the Air Canada crew did not react to the warning. "If they are not looking at the tower - which is not something you normally do - you won't see it," he said." www.cbc.ca/news/world/air-canada-did-not-respond-to-the-verbal-instructions-or-to-the-light-gun-instruction-1.4372135 If you know your radio isn't working, you will look for the light gun. If you hear radio chatter, you assume your radio is working, and will look at your instruments and the RWY, and not at the TWR. But, like I said, I'm surprised they didn't react to what kind of chatter they heard on the radio.
I'm pretty sure they knew their radio worked, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get in the air. My guess is that they either preprogrammed the ground frequency when they got close to the runway, or their comms failed.
They couldn’t have taken off from their originating airport if the radio wasn’t working. Bottom line! Don’t believe everything you see on the Internet.
ATC threw a hail Mary, and nailed it. Awesome reaction. Saved hundreds.Holy crap. Who's on the radio saying "781 pilot deviation? Is that the FAA person.
Ultimately it is up to the crew of the aircraft to visually check that the runway is clear and initiate a go around if there is an incursion - particularly if they aren’t receiving radio traffic or think they aren’t being heard. Good drills by the controller nonetheless 👍🏼
I saw something like this back in the early 80s at Heathrow. Air France approaching on final was told to abort and go round due to plane on runway awaiting takeoff instructions. After several ignored commands the traffic controller said "go on then, you might get a landing out of it"
I've had the opposite - cleared to land less than 15 seconds out, with an aircraft on the threshold and very clearly NOT moving. I was already pushing the throttle to go around when the tower reacted to my declining the clearance because of obstructions and told me to do so (I'd been expecting a go-around call for the previous 30 seconds. The landing clearance surprised me. Tower controller was far more upset than I was and we discussed it over coffee a few hours later, reassurances all around and we all learned a valuable lesson)
It was short video, hence we can understand some context was missing.. actually flight was cleared to land initially, However ATC messed up and allowed another plane in the runway .. But soon after ATC discovered the issue, and ATC tried to ask for go around.. which the landing pilots did not hear . Typically after they are cleared to land , pilots have lot of other communications underway Crew, ground, gate, etc,,; hence it’s typical of them to switch the comms to different frequency !! Anyways, since it’s pilots responsibility to always keep hearing the tower; am sure they will have to take some blame as well.
Assuming this is the USA and "clear to land" was said like is custom in the US for... reasons. This is why you say "clear to land" when the runway. is. clear.
Wow, people are so quick to judge the pilots here, first ... know the difference between an error and a violation. Second, know that there is no redundancy for landing clearance/go-around communication apart from radio. Yes, there is a directional ALDIS signalling lamp that the controller could go outside and point at the aircraft, but when you are not in a lost-comm situation, it is unlikely that you'll be scanning for that. Also, the ALDIS lamp and other proposed visual signals only work in VMC, CATIII aircraft will never see them anyway. Also, most warning sounds from aircraft systems are inhibited at short final, not to distract pilots from the task at hand, so an FMS message won't do any good. So that brings us to developing a separate aircraft system for this situation. And as this will score very low on the "likelyhood to occur vs. severity of situation vs. cost to implement aviation wide" graph, nothing will change to the current situation. But nice quick thinking of the controller, well done! End of rant 😅 fly safe! ❤🛩️✈️
Good job ATC ! Thanks for saving idiots who probably turned their headphone volume down or didnt have their comma tuned correctly. As a mechanic I can’t tell you how many times my fellow pilots tell me that their COMMSs are broken when it was them … I’m not gonna say that it was the pilot fault completely but we have more than one calm for this reason exactly so it’s kind a hard to believe that the airplanes radios died when it’s set up with multiple radios for this reason. I turned off my headset volume by accident . The other pilot should have caught that.
Maybe they should install a big bright x with the lights they use for landing guidance, for situations such as this. Probably won't work in bad vision though.....
I wonder if it would be a good idea to introduce something like special warning lights on the approach to alert the pilots that they're radio isn't working and the tower is trying to contact them or give them instructions like go around etc..
The US Navy's aircraft carriers have the optical landing system ("the ball") which has inbuilt wave-off lights. So if 'paddles' (the carrier's equivalent of a tower controller) doesn't think you're lined up, on glideslope and stably established, the lights can be enabled, and it's drilled into the pilots from day zero that if you get waved off, you aren't landing just yet, because if you live through the mishap you've created, your first stop is a board of inquiry and likely the only flying you will *ever* do, military or civil, will be as a passenger.
The ATC kept a great level head the entire time and saved countless loves with his quick thinking getting the other flights out of harm's way. Air Canada should have explained why he was ignoring orders to circle the airport.
"Without permission" would not be correct. They were cleared to land, and could not hear ATC asking them to go around instead. Clearance to land should never have been given until the runway was clear.
