Plug-Side Chat: Should "Slow-Charging" EVs Exist? 

Absolutely! I've been saying this for a long time now, these reviewers who cling to this "slow" charging is a game changer aren't thinking about most EV drivers, they're on the misunderstood, misconception faster is better bandwagon. Bigger batteries, heavier cars, higher expense, greater tire wear, suspension wear and ride all suffer. Take people like me and my wife. We're older, retired and living off grid the majority of the year. I definitely want a small, light efficient EV that I can charge from our PV system. The average mileage Americans drive in a day is somewhere around 30. In the summer here in the Catskills we go three hundred miles driving conservatively but not hypermiling, more than enough. Most of our trips are within the Bolts range so, not only don't we need a 2 or 3C charger we really don't want one, 95+% of our charging is right at home. Thanks for saying this Eric, you're one of the most savvy EV owner/reviewers on YT. We've had Bolts for over six years and couldn't agree more.

I’ve owned a 2019 Bolt EV, a 2022 Bolt EUV, a 2022 Tesla Model 3 and a 2022 Ioniq5, so I feel I can speak to this subject with authority. Without considering purchase price, the Bolt is just as good of a commuter as the Tesla, maybe a little better. I’d say a Bolt EUV with Supercruise would be a better commuter than the Tesla because it is quieter and the suspension is more comfortable. Tesla scores well here because of the efficiency and auto pilot but loses points because of the LOUD interior and crashy ride. The Ioniq5 does commuting very well, it only loses points because it isn’t very efficient. If you’re talking about longer road trips (beyond what you could do in a single charge), the Tesla is better because of its efficiency, driving range/charging speed and the Supercharger networks. The Ioniq5 is way more comfortable, nicer to drive and charges faster than the Tesla, but you have to stop more often due to the lower efficiency and the charging network is…inconsistent, to put it politely. The Bolt is capable of long road trips but you spend a LOT of time charging by comparison to the other vehicles, especially in the winter due to the lack of battery preconditioning and the substantial drop in efficiency in winter road conditions (I regularly saw below 3mi/kWh when driving in moderate rain and cold temperatures or temperatures below freezing). When considering price, the Bolt EV/EUV suddenly becomes a way, way, way better commuter than any of the other vehicles, as long as you’re buying an inexpensive one. Buying a fully loaded Bolt EV/EUV makes the argument a bit harder. For longer road trips, the Bolt is capable but becomes a lesser value vs the Tesla or the Ioniq5 because you spend so much more time charging. The Bolt requires some time sacrifices when driving longer distances. You have to stop and charge longer than almost any would need to stop for their own personal reasons. Covering 500 miles at 70mph in the Bolt takes about 1hr 15 min longer than the Ioniq5 and about 1hr 30minutes longer than the Model 3 when driving the same route under similar conditions. And yes, I have timed it. Under winter conditions, the gap will be substantially wider because the Tesla and (now) the Ioniq5 have battery preconditioning and will charge as much as 10x faster peak speeds than what I have personally witnessed when trying to fast charge the Bolt in cold temperatures. So, absolutely there is a place for a slower charging car, but it’s place is at the low end of the price range. An expensive EV with slow charging doesn’t make sense. I still feel the Bolt is a little too expensive, especially given the recent Tesla price drops. I leased a 2020 Kona Electric for about a year as well (before getting the Tesla, sold it when the used market went insane and the batteries starting catching fire). It was a great car, but I only got it because I got an amazing lease deal. MSRP for it, especially the fully loaded Ultimate model I had, was _way_ too much. The current Niro EV is the same. Maybe $10k overpriced, which is why it gets compared (unfavorably) to the EV6. I only got my 2019 Bolt because I got it for $15k off MSRP (cash discounts, not tax credits). I only got the 2022 EUV because I was fed up with GM dragging their heels on the battery fires and did an MSRP swap for the EUV (and actually got money back for doing so). I’d argue against your “almost 300 mile real world range” in the Bolt EV. Almost nobody will get that year round unless you’re driving in an area that doesn’t have seasons and stays 75 degrees all year. The most that I ever got out of my 2019 Bolt EV in ideal conditions and 65 mph was basically the EPA rating, about 230 miles. And that was driving it until the final bar was flashing. My EUV got about the same maximum range in ideal conditions, despite the larger battery because it wasn’t as efficient. Winter range in both vehicles was more like 160-170 miles, and we don’t have incredibly cold temps here. You might be able to hyper mile to 300 miles driving slowly in ideal conditions, but calling that “real world range” is unrealistic.

This is a very good, prudent argument. The Bolt EV is a very prudent car. It is true that most people only need a car like a Bolt. The problem is that this has been the argument of EV enthusiasts for decades. If Americans bought prudent cars, we would prolly be at 50% market share by now. Americans don't buy prudent cars.

My biggest problem with 1C EVs is that, when there's a limitation on the number of available chargers, 1C EVs are more likely to create long wait times to get a charge.

I think you've affected my thinking about my Bolt, especially in the last year. Or at the very least got me to think a little more holistically about my needs during a long trip. I have a drive I do about twice a year in the Bolt that I have done at best 18 hours door to door. I initially wanted to get the new Ioniq because it would drop that trip by at least 2 hours for the most conservative estimate, and probably more. But it turns out that the periods of rest are what enable me to do the trip in one shot in the first place. If I need a full hour to snooze at least twice during the trip to keep me safe and alert, how much could I still improve on that trip time wise? It made me question whether the pretty big leap cost wise would be worth it, my Bolt has been paid off for years.

"slow" is relative

I hadn't thought about charging rates like this. I can't remember the last time I did a 300 mile trip. The furthest I go somewhat often is 50 miles out. This video would make a great article.

Very good post. What the argument being had is derived from is the reality that versus fossil fuel cars, EVs fight a five minute refueling reality for ALL CLASSES of fossil fuel vehicles. And in some instances, the lower cost more efficient vehicles charge quicker because of smaller tanks. Though your notion of need is a good question, consumers are used to quicker fuel stops versus ANY ELECTRIC vehicle. So though many won’t take long trips often, it’s also likely many won’t pay for home level two charging either. To get vehicles charged they will use public infrastructure with the expectation it can be done almost as fast as fueling a car does. That supports the argument for improving speeds to charge and to make limited spaces available more quickly for other cars.

We own an Ioniq 5 and appreciate the faster charging speed on the relatively rare occasions we need it. I think the Bolt is a great value with more than adequate range. The DC fast charging is only an issue when venturing more than 100 from home. Most people don’t do that very often. Certainly for any two car family a Bolt is highly practical. It might be our second vehicle someday.

You know what drives me crazy about 'most ev youtubers'.. those damn 1000km range tests, and "lets drive it until it runs out" i have driven evs for 5 years.. you are so correct.. I currently own a Tesla Model Y (I got it after my S because I did drive weekly on long road trips) and we have a Mini cooper SE with a 114 mile range. We NEVER worry about range in the mini.. it's full everyday.. my wife comes home in the mini and it's full in less than an hour in our garage. I don't need the Tesla anymore, I may take a long road trip 1 or 2 times a year. But.. it's paid for and it's safe and my dog fits and while it's a luxury, it too, never gets charged at a supercharger unless we go on a road trip. It's not fair to haul around that bigger batter in the Tesla.. it's why I got rid of my Volt.. I hated carrying around an engine that I barely used. I love this post.. and I wish more EV RU-vidrs were honest about what you need in a car.. you don't need a car that goes as long as gas car.. you fill it up every night at your house.

I have a 20 bolt and have experienced the bad side of slow charging. 400 miles took 14 hours. Hit a strong head wind, 45 degree drop in temps, torrential cold cold rain. The 180 mile leg between two DC fast charging stations couldn’t be made. Had to use level 2 charging at two locations in between for a total of 5.5 hours. Was a rough overnight but a rare occurrence.

Yes I agree. The big factor to me is there are a lot of families that have two or more vehicles like me and the bolt the way it charges now has no impact on 100 percent of it's use to our needs. DC fast charging would only impact us very little to nothing if the bolt was our only vehicle. Even if I went on a 500 to 600 mile trip the bolt would be fine because I like getting out of the car and stretching my legs often, plus having a smoke. I'm not convinced yet if these super fast DC charging vehicles will not significantly degrade the battery either.

My 2019 Bolt EV just passed the 100,000 mile mark and its running like the day I bought it new in October 2019. Other than our battery swap during the recall, the car has had no unusual maintenance to speak of. Its been just rotating+replacing tires, change of cabin air filter and replacing wind shield wipers and fluid. All these few maintenance tasks have been done by the Chevy dealer express maintenance shop located about two miles from my house. Chevy has done a great job for me during this time. They even paid for my rental car during our recall battery swap. So my Chevy Bolt EV experience has been really great!!! My wife has recently said she would like ditch her ICE SUV and buy an Equinox EV when they come out in the fall of this year. So we will be a two EV family soon.

Interesting view on the question of DCFC speeds. I regularly (4-6 times a year) road trip to family that is roughly 340 miles one way. The ‘22 Bolt does great and I charge once at a perfectly placed EA station, just around the halfway point. I need about an hour of charging to make it. The mindset of the majority of people that talk to me about EV’s is, they want to not have to change the way the road trip, if they get an EV. Meaning, they want to able to, on a whim, just start a road trip at anytime, and not have to think much about time management in regards to ‘fueling’ time. It’s an overall mindset of the typical consumer that is pushing the higher speeds for DCFC. We have done the trip in my wife’s XC40 Recharge a time or two and the faster charging speeds have been nice. So I understand the draw of the faster charging. A happy medium for the average person, IMHO, would be about a 1.5C speed. It’s not too hard on the battery, and makes for a reasonable compromise in charging time, if on a road trip. The other rarely talked about side effect of ‘lower’ DCFC rates is the reduced stress to the grid during heavy use periods. Unless of course buffers are used, but everything falls apart if/when that buffer is drained.

Absolutely love the topic and hearing you riff on the subject! I am gonna push back a bit on your perspective. The economics of 1C architecture exists because of scale. The quicker that more cars roll out with 800v systems, the faster the prices drop. Secondly, adoption happens faster when barriers are removed. The Bolt EV and other similarly slow charging cars are dissuasive to many people for journeys over 300 miles. Last point is that slow-charging EVs put stress on the DCFC infrastructure network and the general EV community because the car is a bottleneck to faster throughput at charging stations. It’s not uncommon to see a Bolt EV spending 60 or 70+ minutes hooked to a 150kW charger pulling 18kW at like 82% SoC.

On the half dozen or so 1900 mile round trips from Southern California to Southern Colorado and back I've made over the last three years I haven not been greatly inconvenienced by the lower charge rate of my Bolt. In fact, having a charge time of 45-50 minutes means I can have a relaxing meal without having to run out and move my car when it is sufficiently charged. If it charged faster, this would not work.

I have nothing but compliments for the way you treated this topic and I found it extremely insightful. I personally drive a small battery EV6 and have road tripped it a ton. However we also have a shagged out LEAF with only 35 miles of usable city range. And we have a Honda Clarity PHEV that’s leased. So we’ve experienced and enjoyed the various trade offs for all these vehicles. The LEAF by way is now only about a 0.25C car even on a CHAdeMO charger and the Clarity being level 2 only at 7 kW with a 17 kWh pack is actually faster at about 0.4C. So if you think about it your argument that there’s a place for the low cost 1C car is excellent since somehow many many PHEV owners out there find use cases for slower charging low range cars. One size does not fit all customers wallets or use cases.

This is very insightful. I have a Bolt and long for faster charging speeds. I hadn't thought of it in three tiers. I think I would be a 2C EV person, maybe 3C because we occasionally tow. Not terribly frequent, but we do take 200+ mile and occasionally 1000+ mile trips, and the Bolt is pretty punishing for the long trips. We really enjoyed having a Niro EV for one Florida trip, the marginal utility of charging power is pretty high at the lower levels. The jump from 50ish to 75ish felt HUGE. I would totally buy a Niro EV too if it were priced like a Bolt.

Bought my Chevy EUV after watching your reviews and it’s blown my expectations. When I’m at an actual level 3 that puts out close to 50kw, I don’t spend that much more time there than going to the gas station for an ice car.

The Bolt charges almost as fast as the ford lightning because what matters is the number of miles range added per minute, not kWh and the Bolt is more than 2× as efficient (so while charging at 50kW it is actually adding the same range per minute as a lightning charging at 100kW).

As a 2022 Bolt LT2 owner I agree with you. Would a 3C charging rate be nice on long trips? Sure! Am I willing (or able) to pay an extra $12,000 for a car that has 3C? No! For 99% of my trips I don't need to fast charge and it makes no difference. For the couple times a year I take a trip long enough to fast charge I can either take our ICE car or take the Bolt and while it's charging think about the $12k I saved. In Dec I took a 500 mile round trip with the Bolt. The extra time spent charging added up to about an hour each way. But we had a nice dinner one time while it was charging and it was doable. One of the chargers we used was only a 50 kw charger so even a 3c car wouldn't charge a lot faster. As the Bolt does tamper the charge the 3c car would be able to use the full 50 kw chargers vs me topping out at 44. So they have some advantage. Having options and different price points of cars is a good thing. Ultimately I could see myself with one bolt and one faster charging EV when we become a 2 EV household. But anyone with one ICE car and one EV could manage easily with a car like the Bolt.

I'm a 2017 Bolt LT owner, and I'm on the side of yes its necessary. But more so the argument, its nicer to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it. Currently I drive from The bay area to LA every couple months and the charge time waits are grueling. Sometimes takes around 12 hours to get there. Maybe I'm driving inefficiently? I'm not sure, but I stand by my argument from before. At least go from 20-80% in 40 minutes would be nice. Just my 2 cents. Love your content Eric.

People who live in apartments who can't have "at home" charging need fast charging so they don't have to sit at a charging station for hours.

Purely based on the number of owners I've spoken to who have *never* fast charged -- or who have only done so once or twice to make sure it works -- I think your point has legs right from the off. It's only "slow charging" if you have to get back on the road ASAP. Closer to home, 50kW remains far faster than home or public L2 options, assuming you ever need it. Having chosen the Ioniq 5 and the 3c rate as our next EV after the Bolt, it would seem as though we fall on the other side of your argument, but I'm personally closer to the middle. While we can do up to 240kW on the road, with family and pets on board I'm more than happy with ~150kW. After the intiial novelty of testing the 350kW units and 10-80% times, I now honestly don't care if the most powerful charger is unavailable. There are also times when the 50-62.5kW would be a more appropriate level of power, such as when we sit down to eat and need to move the car mid-meal on a 150kW+ unit. I guess the counter-argument there is that you increase throughput and overall charger availability when the EV charges in 20-25 minutes vs. 40-50 min sessions, but it still goes to show that double-digit fast charging still has an important role to play.

Excellent point regarding inefficiency of the old Model S. I traded my Bolt for a 2014 Model S. Even before Tesla software limited the charge speed down to 1C, it was matching my trip times in the Bolt.

Completely agree with your overall argument. There are so many variables like range, charging speed, size, cost, battery life, features, etc. Given that, the "sweet" spot is all over the place. Plus we get hyped into caring about something that is so niche to our actual use. On top of that, just understanding characteristics like battery charging curve, speed to range to power use, etc can remarkably improve or degrade the long range results. So I agree with your assessment for the general EV owner. Over time, the general public will become better informed what is the best fit for their needs and pocket book. And there are increasingly more choices to pick from. I still find the Bolt EV to be a great choice for most people and most uses. It's also gotten really inexpensive!

Your logic is spot on as usual. It's stunning how many people are convinced they're cannon ball run style road trippers who can only tolerate 5 minute stops every 300 miles.

It's a really good talk. I agree with you for most of it. I had 2 Bolts, and traveled many times with them. But now I have an ID.4 and I can tell you that it sure makes a big difference. In the Bolt I would generally be 45 minutes charging. Now 20 to 30 minutes. Around town they both work out the same. Plug in at night and in the morning you are done. But for the road it's a big difference. Currently we have the ID.4 for our trips and for now around town we use a leaf which we have leased. And in 4 months will replace it with an EUV.

Hi Eric. It's good to see you posting again. Your topic is very relevent. We have two Bolts, since 1997. They have run perfectly since purchase. We are retired, have time, and easily get by on 1C charging at home. Since we have paid-for solar, we run the cars for essentially no $. It doesn't get any better than that ! I know we're a particular subgroup of owners, and the Bolt essentially meets all our needs. One thing to consider for home charging is the capacity of the home electrical system. I'm sure we could never exceed the demands of a 1C charger, without majorly expensive rewiring of the house. I think automakers will tend to confuse buyers purposely in order to increase profits. Having 1C to 3C capacity on a car model as optional choices would be the best outcome. But, of course, that's too logical....

Kona and Niro is way overpriced for a '1c'. Bolt is the winner in that category.

The Bolt EV wouldn't be too bad if it held a 1C charging rate up until 80%. It currently only holds a 0.8C charging rate (55 kW) only until 45%, which is quite frankly pathetic. It should hold a full 60-66 kW until 80% to be competitive today. Its current charging rate is really inadequate when compared to any EVs made after 2020. Like you said GM is really neglecting or shortchanging the Bolt EV by not letting it have a full 1C charge rate. A 200 amp CCS harness would do wonders, but it is more likely they'd move the Bolt to the Ultium platform than give it a 200 A harness (either are extremely unlikely). Even if the data says that few people take (EV) road trips, just seeing the slow DC fast charging numbers on paper may dissuade some from buying their first EV or going to an all-EV household.

What hurts the Bolt in winter (below freezing) is the lower charging rate when the battery is below a temperature of 24c. What would go a long way to compensate for the charge rate in winter is a way to pre heat the battery pack to 24c before arriving at a CCS charger

For those who need it and are willing to pay for the cost, when are we going to see faster recharging upgrades to our Chevy Bolts?

For sure, people need to know what they need out of a car. My epiphany a while ago is that I'm ~5 years 2 car households will want 1 fast charging (3c) car for when they travel, and a cheaper (1c) as their 2nd car. We bought a Niro first, and then went full ev with an ioniq 5. I havent dc fast charged the Niro since we bought the ioniq 5 because anytime I know I'll need to dc charge I take the ioniq 5.

I respectfully disagree with 1c. Kia Niro has same battery pack from LG ,used in original bolt. They are capable to charge at max rate 74kwh. So I was shocked to hear new bolts are still capped at 50kwh. I'm still bitching to get my car to 80% spending 45-60min :(

No they shouldn’t

All about cost, simple

For my use case, 1C is plenty, even for 200-250 mile round trips, which I have done many times. For some road trips to places with limited charging infrastructure, much of the charging ends up happening via wall plugs at a rental house, not at 300kW roadside charging stations. Think driving 150 miles to a cabin somewhere, spending a night or two at the cabin, doing some hiking around there during the day, then driving home. And, if you're charging at a wall plug, the efficiency of the vehicle matters a ton, while the 1C vs. 3C nature of the vehicle's DC charging makes absolutely no difference.

At 13:00 is the truth of reality!

I would add level 1 charging is more than adequate for home overnite charging. Plus it requires NO electrical work done for a level 2 charger and the expensive hardware.

50-55Kwh charging speed is ridiculous. It should at least be 100-150.

I have a 2022 Bolt EUV, I'm retired and don't do much in the way road trips anymore. I've gotten by on 110 volts so far, but again I'm retired. I really love my little Bolt and I certainly see enough criticism. My thought is that I'm driving 2016 technology which works for most people. I would bet that there are EV drivers who never ever go more than 200 miles a day but they pay twice as much as I did for the odd trip that they "might" take some day.

Good discussion. I see your point. I do agree that a 1C charging EV certainly has a place in the market. However I'm not always sure that a 1C car is always more cost effective than a 2C or 3C vehicle. It will depend on scale and volume. Yes from a raw materials standpoint a 1C battery will have a modest cost advantage. But that is only a part of the equation. The overhead associated with supporting multiple pack designs might negate the cost advantage of offering multiple charge rates. This is why GM seems to have gone with 2C on Ultium. In my opinion 2C seems to be the goldilocks zone. Fast enough for 95% of users. However still lower cost than 3C. GM then engineers one system and manufactures it at scale to amortize the development overhead and bring scale to the components used in the battery system. While I love the Bolt EV. I think it will be gone (along with 1C vehicles in GM's lineup) once Ultium scales up. And the scale and manufacturing simplicity of 2C Ultium will largely negate the raw material cost advantages of a 1C battery pack even in lower capacity entry level models.

I feel like the charging speed point was latched onto as the old "I don't want an EV because..." points were knocked down. Slow? No. Weak acceleration? No. Short range? No. Looks weird? No. Non-standard, fly-by-night company? No. So instead they went with charge speed, which wasn't at best an issue until a few years ago (I recall your early videos with EVGo). And to be honest, it's a mostly BS point as anyone who compares actual usage between the cars. I regularly have the car charge farther than I need as I'm not done doing whatever while it's charging. In fact, that I don't need to get up to move it off the charger while doing stuff is a win. And besides, if "slow charging" is really that much of an issue, **no** car charges fast enough compared to most gassing up. Hell, maybe even a car isn't fast enough for your needs. Maybe those people need to fly instead.

I'm like you, I just wish the bolt, would do at least 70kw. It would help people like myself, that literally drive a ton.

For my commuter, 1c i all I need; I want low cost and efficiency. The Bolt works for me. Gas in British Columbia Canada is forecast to hit $9.80/us gallon this summer, and the worst residential charging rate is $0.14/hwh.

If anything, you're still not being AS CRITICAL as you could be of the "oh, I need to be able to road-trip 1000 miles in any direction without any notice" thinking that so many of the assessments of charging needs demonstrate. ;) The figures don't lie and drivers, in general, just don't do those kind of trips much, so capacity estimates that insist we need to account for 10 million vehicles plugged into DCFC along interstate highways from 8 AM to 4 PM are setting laughable standards that will never need to be met. The need to practically address charging rates like this extends all the way down into Level 2, as well. I've seen people apparently seriously and with straight faces say things like they couldn't POSSIBLY live with an EV that didn't charge at home entirely within whatever their off-peak rate window is and the data don't bear that out either. Most people don't need 19.2kw Level 2. Most people don't need 11kw. Most people might need like... 3kw. Or 2. What we COULD use, though, is smarter charging that rate-limits instead of only time-limiting at-home charging. There's no reason that a car set to use only off-peak power needs to do ALL of its charging upfront or just at the end. Maybe the car can say "I'm supposed to hit 80% by 0600, I can do that on 1.4kw and don't need to draw 7" and still yet have the smarts to say "I'm at 30%, so I DO need 7 to make it"

This has been a very interesting thread to read. I just recently purchased a 2017 Chevy Bolt Premium as my first electric vehicle. Yeah its slow at charging on a fast charger but that's not why I bought this vehicle. It fit my budget to where i could pay for it and not have a car payment and has saved me a great deal of money from fuel and oil changes. 98% of my charging time is spent at home on a level 2 charger. I drive 130 miles every day for work and just plug in when I get home and its ready to go the next day. It has been a great experience so far for me . I do have a question Eric about your comment on the charging harness being changed from a 150 to 200 A. Is this only something Chevrolet can do or is it possible to have it changed at a dealer, provided a 200 A harness does exist. Just curious to see if that was an option. Love your videos. I have learned a great deal on how to drive my car and what to expect from it.

Fastest charger where i live and within 200 miles i have access to is 50 kW.

When I saw the title, I thought you were going to try and justify the very ill-conceived base model Bolts that lacked DC fast charging *entirely* which I consider an absurd option to have ever existed considering the very minimal cost to add the DCFC harness to an EV. There is, as you argue, absolutely value for EVs that have DCFC but don't charge at particularly fast rates (around or just under 1C). It adds a lot of cost to an EV to support those higher charging rates; different cell configurations, much stronger battery cooling, heavier cabling, more weight to support all the previous, etc... With how infrequently people actually need to fast charge, it's really perfectly acceptable to have an EV (even as your only vehicle) that charges below 1C.

I'd much rather see DC stations with 2 usable cables share 150 kW of available power and be able to reliably charge 4 vehicles at a time than 2 150 and 2 350 kW stations that aren't reliable and don't charge at the high rate they are being advertised as being able to provide to all vehicles. I.e optimize for reliability and as much power as possible for the approximate 400 volt battery architecture being produced. Getting a steady 60 to 70 kW of charge rate up to 80% would be fantastic. Having to run out to move a fast charging car before the food comes. Or only grabbing fast food shouldn't be your only choices.

Perception is reality. Slow charging turns off people who drive ICE. I drive e-Golf so am used to slow DCFC but 150 kW+ is absolutely necessary to change Luddite attitudes.

Lower cost options are great very sorely needed. However I am not sure slower charging rate is the driving factor for getting those lower costs. And we are seeing there are LFP batteries that are charging at higher than 1c rates. If the manufacturers were focused on efficiency then we would see more and more efficient, lighter weight, able to go further with smaller batteries etc. In the case of smaller batteries a 50kw charging rate isn't bad at all. You can still get a pretty reasonable charge in 30-40 minutes. We need to see the efficiency wars heat up and see these cars start to do more with less. Right now I don't feel like we are going in that direction at all. Not even remotely. I don't know where they get the data for the traveling, but most people I know and we are far from affluent take road trips several times a year. Typically around the holidays and a summer vaca sort of thing. So this idea that good charging rates are only needed by like 25% of the driving market sounds pretty ludicrous and that only a small portion of the driving community actually takes road trips. Not been my experience at all. I agree with you to a certain degree there is a Tesla hive mind that is not a very good influence in a lot of ways. If anyone did it besides Tesla it is wrong. But then again I see that very much in the EV segment as a whole where anything but a full BEV and only a full BEV will do and should be allowed. At the same time I see the push back against all things that have been done by Tesla as if no one wants to work together at all. Now unfortunately much of the automotive business is in a bad space financially and Tesla and likely BYD will end up controlling the largest segments of the mobility space and that is frightening. It is these echo chambers in the Tesla and even the EV space by well meaning, but very narrow views that far more harmful than helpful. The goal should be solutions that provide better tools to do the things that people do today. The "well you just need to stop doing that", or suggest compromises that make every day life a complicated and frustrating affair is pretty poor way to motivate anyone to consider doing something a different way and hopefully a BETTER way. Affordable, practical, efficient vehicles would go a long ways to accomplishing that and so far we aren't seeing much of it in the US. It is quite sad. While most EV owners know they typically charge at home on a daily basis and don't need to go to a charging site away from home, they do know that for those 2, 3, 4 trips a year where they are going to road trip, or the unplanned odd circumstances that seem to pop up a few times a year where you have to do a lot of unplanned running that turns into a lot of miles and most of a day.... Well no one wants to sit around for an hour or more at a pop at a DCFC. Most people when they understand this constraint are going to steer clear of those vehicles when shopping for one. People might consider a slower charging EV for local driving only and probably a second car if they can afford that luxury. Without the faster charging options I think these vehicles are a harder sell. BTW, I hope someone from GM is listening to you on the constraints that the Bolt has and will enhance the plug and infra in the car to allow for those other loads above and beyond the drive battery charging. GM for the moment is the only manufacturer in the US with a somewhat more affordable EV in the Bolt. I hope they decide to evolve it and enhance it instead of replace it.

I have a Bolt EV as well. But I do wish that the charging speed was a little faster, especially when I make the almost 800 (almost 1600 round trip) mile trip to Fresno from Washington State.

Guess the question really is why an electric car? Hybrids are much better buys for all around performance than even Teslas. I fill the hybrid up in less than ten minutes for 520 miles of range at 40 mpg, the Lucid can't even do that at $100,000+! I own the 2023 Bolt EUV and it's great for commuting and around town charging overnight at home. Would I take it on a long road trip no unless I just wanted the adventure. So if your answer is 'because of the environment' to my question the Bolt is an excellent choice! The money saved for anyone with a home can be used for Geothermal Heating Systems or a Solar system to power the house and charge the car. We did just that spending $82,000 on a Geothermal System, Solar System, and a 2023 Bolt EUV after all rebates and incentives. So yes for the price of a fully optioned Tesla one can do a lot!

Similar arguments could be made for small battery packs. How cheap could the Bolt be if it had a 24kWh pack like the original leafs. But for those arguments to work on the long run users would need a solution for when they do want to take longer trips. Unfortunately, the industry has moved in from battery swaps and weight and balance concerns might have prevented users from renting a larger battery for road trips. What I do not understand is why noone experiments with putting a 70kWh battery on a low profile, well balanced, trailers with trailer breaks. Closer on profile to what you see motorcycles pulling, except a lot heavier. I think that such a product could be made for $15k, weigh less then 1000lb with little aero drag if designed to fit into the aerodynamic shadow of the car. If the car were designed to compliment the concept then this could unlock a lot. And allow the car itself the be much cheaper. - The combined 140kWh batteries could charge fast even at 1C. - Users could rent a trailer for the entire road trip or use it like a low cost and simple battery swap network. - If the trailers were 2C then cars could also use a network of these trailers to charge on the fly.

now the technology to charge EV to 80% in 5min exists. the direction would be fast charge that match filling gas. in the future, you should drive ev like an ice. you go as unplanned and go to highway gas station and fill it up in 5 min. 1C in the future can be hated because other people needs to wait.

you make some very good points, I am very happy with my bolt, I enjoy the charging stops. I believe it's important where chargers are placed. someplace to get a cup of coffee, tourist sites etc

~50kW max charging speed ( only slightly more for a very brief period of time under absolutely ideal conditions) was debatable in 2017 when the Bolt came out. It's completely unacceptable now. IMO the bare minimum charging speed for any EV should be 10%-80% in 30 minutes under most conditions and in 40 minutes under all conditions.

Just bought a 2023 Bolt. Will probably never use anything but the factory level 2 dual level cord. Can commute to work and around town most of the week on single charge to 90%. Will recharge overnight once battery gets down to around 50 miles remaining. The 2015 Leaf that I drove before this was charged nightly at level 1. I have standard RAV4 for my trip to Dallas every 3 months.

Short answer is yes! Plenty of range for daily use, and price of the Bolt EV is decent for any car. I've not even been to a fast charger since maybe Feb/March 2022. 100% charge at home doing 3,000 miles a month. I even owned a 40 kWh Nissan Leaf and used it for rideshare, 3,000 and rarely ever needed a fast charger. The faster charging stats are great for talking points, but not relevant on a daily basis. And somebody paying $50-$120K for a car can charge at home and take airplanes for trips that require more than one charging session. If someone lives in a situation where they can't charge at home, then faster charging is useful. But not everyone should be forced to pay for the privilege. In my area there is only 1 DC charger over 50 kW and it's 45 mins from my home so not useful for me.

The charging speed should match effective pack size. One of our BEV has only 20Kwh and charges at 50kW to 70% in about 15 minutes; then we are off (to the next charger). So is that 2.5C? Do you get a higher C rate as battery degrades? You typically reduce your Bolt's effective battery size the way you travel. But the Bolt's charging speed is mis-matched to the pack size. So many Bolt owners (especially rideshare drivers and rental companies) charge to 90-100% making the sight of Bolt at a DCFC cringe-worthy for some. It is not just about the driver.

I would love to see LFP in EVs in the coming future but I do agree they should be limited to 1C. I've personally worked with LFP cells that run upward of 10C charge and discharge and they do not hold up long at all even with a 3C charge rate you are taking a quarter or more out of their lifetime. Also I do agree that the Bolt should get a 200 amp harness before the end of it's lifetime an extra 11kW doesn't sound like much but it would be very beneficial plus being able to maintain climate control without eating into the charge rate would be a plus especially considering the Bolt doesn't use a heat pump.

70% (10% - 80%) of a BEVs range in 20 minutes is no where near 100% of an ICEs range in 3 minutes. Not even close. The ioniq 5 has 250 miles range total so 70% of thst is 175 miles in 20 minutes whereas my last ICE (a ford fusion) could add all 450 miles range in 3 minutes. Not even close.

Great information for a bolt owner.simple and to thepoint

You have hit it out of the park again Eric. Not all of us need, want or afford 3C. Our Bolts were designed and built to be the best value, they still are.

If the bolt needs some work to be 1c maybe it really is less than 1c and the price is correct for the bolt, and for a niro EV or Kona EV that is 1c is priced right? Also as long as the 1c or less are not clogging up a 350kw charger, I agree they should exist.

It's an excellent regional vehicle, if you rarely travel beyond your region (say, a 350 mile radius) or in very cold weather. Unfortunately I have to do both fairly regularly. If I didn't I would have bought a used Bolt before used car prices went nuts.

I agree mostly. I do worry about the bottle neck effect due to some cars are able to plug in a finish in 15 to 20 minutes, while others my have to occupy chargers for 45 minutes to an hour.

Do you ever trickle charge your car (using your home’s 120v outlet)? If so, how many miles per hour (charging) do you get? I’ve read to expect about 3-5 miles per hour.

I was able to afford a Bolt in 2021. It complements my Ford Escape, as 90% or more of the driving I do, is within a ~250 mile range. Anything further than that? That's what the Escape is for.

I agree with your assessment. What do you say to the fact that they will discontinue the Bolt in November 2023?

I agree, my ampera-e (rebranded bolt) charges plenty fast. 95% of my charging is level 2 anyway. however my next car (megane e-tech electric) is 2c (this is not a requirement from my part), it seems most manufacturers spec cars on what non ev drivers think they need. 130kw sounds better in the brochure than the 54kw of my ampera ;-)

I’ve been thinking about how much more volume a 800v let’s say 100kwh battery pack takes up vs a 400v 100kwh pack. Because I remember when I was racing R/C cars the higher the voltage the larger and more cells you’d need in a battery. Like Parallel and Series are inverses of each other or something.

Eric, I agree with you about 90%. 1C cars can handle all local driving and short to medium road trips. But for long road trips you need to either have a fast charging EV or a gas car if you don't want to add many hours to the driving/charging/repeat portion of the trip. I have a Niro EV, a 1C (and a bit) car. I've done long road trips in it, so I'm well aware that it's possible, but it is an exercise in patience. Stopping to charge for 30-45 minutes, five, six, or even seven times a day gets really old. The obvious solution would be to have two cars, with the second one being a gas car. But I don't want the expense of keeping two cars licensed and insured. Or I could rent a gas car for long trips, but when I take long trips they frequently amount to more than 30% of my annual miles. I'm hardly saving the planet when that big a portion of my miles is on gas. So what I need is an EV that can be my only car, and right now that means a 2C or 3C car. However, I don't have $50K-$60K burning a hole in my pocket at this moment, so I will enjoy my Niro a while longer. You mentioned efficiency, and that is truly the holy grail for road trips. If my Niro was as efficient as a Lightyear (RIP), it would halve my time spent charging. With Lightyear gone, Aptera awaiting life support, and the Hyundai Ioniq 6 being only marginally more efficient than the Ioniq 5/EV6, we may have to wait several years before another manufacturer realizes that good aerodynamics is free range.

Hmm I think the massive price drop and return of the tax credit could have something to do with the tune changing among EV journalists... Let's turn your argument on its head and consider an Uber driver that wants to charge their car quickly and continue working? Or an apartment dweller without home charging who wants to not spend an hour+ charging? Not to mention that people aren't completely rational about their car needs, obviously. My LFP model 3 peaks at roughly 145 kw and Tesla has the highest profit margins on their EVs. It doesn't take a genius to see where things are headed. Pretty much any new cheap EV charges at 75+ kw and the Bolt is still plodding along at 50 (sub 1c). Remember you're not married to GM or the Bolt Eric, it's ok to admit that they need to continue to improve. The Bolt is essentially a commuter special mostly owned by people who have a different vehicle for long distance travel. I seriously considered getting one, but only need/want one vehicle and and I don't commute by car so just doesn't make sense. Look at the MG4 and tell me you'd still fancy a Bolt over that if you could have either for similar price? Final point is that at high demand charging sites, slow charging EVs come at a cost in the need for additional chargers to achieve the same throughput. If 1c were to become a permanent class of vehicle for the reasons you mentioned, (which you haven't convinced me are permanent problems) then that would be a very real problem to contend with long term. However, if 1c/sub 1c is a temporary affliction limited mainly to commuter specials, then it doesn't need to be factored into throughput calculations.

I think the charging rate of the Bolt has more to do with its design period. The state of the art has progressed since 2016. I think the minimum we will be seeing is 125-150 kW rate. Honestly, I just want 150 Kw DC fast charge rate and 300 mile range for my next EV. I plan on keeping my Bolt for 10 years. We will replace my wife’s car with an EV and meet said specs. It will become the travel car.

Excellent analysis, as always. Thanks.

Having a second small car that has 100 miles of range makes a lot of sense to me, maybe even without fast charging. Heavy eVs are going to wear out roads and tires faster.

A big thing in general here is that new EVs are still too expensive for the vast majority of buyers, and really only the Leaf and a handful of others are reasonably priced in the secondhand market. For city trips, I'm totally fine with my ebike, bike share bikes, electric scooters, and transit.

Interesting episode. Thank you. Some friends have been discussing this in a different niche venue, and we agree with you. There is a place for 1C rates in small, economical cars that can add 100 miles in half an hour. We need economical cars and our Bolts are definitely that!

Eric, I think we agree on this subject. I would submit that Elon/Tesla created a marketing narrative that was attractive to the "look at me" crowd. Fine, no problem. But this ultimately _defined_ BEV's for the general consumer base. Thus, even now, most consumers think a BEV is still an $80K vehicle with limitations. The American consumer simply does not have the intellectual capacity to understand the term "mission". The Bolt, and other similar priced BEV's have a particular Mission; As a daily commuter. Which is what 90% of the non-commercial driving public have a use case for 95% of the time. Example: Those Rivian Amazon BEV vans have a *_150 mile range._* Which 100% satisfies their _Mission._ Under no circumstances am I driving My 2017 Bolt (with a now replaced battery) on a out of range trip. We have used a public charger for the Bolt perhaps 4 times in the past 5 years. For out of range trips, I don't care if its an hour to charge or 25 minutes - I have a real life with a real family, and its too inconvenient, stressful on children, and time consuming to locate/find/stop/charge - so I am using the Clarity PHEV for these trips.

Does not the 66 kWh replacement Bolt EV battery charge at 55 kW? I’ve seen a 53 kW rate as my personal max.

Slow charging EV's exist because foolish people keep buying them.

I'm sure we will start to see 50kwh slow charge only vehicles from China outcompeting low end cars but hopefully they aren't able to be sold here

The only problem w/slow charging EVs is the amount of time at public charging. 10-80% is 73 minutes for the Bolt. A fast charging car is around 30 minutes. So the Bolt and cars like it generally take twice as long at a charger as a fast charging car. With all the free juice offered by the 20 car manufacturers these days CCS chargers are startling to become overwhelmed already. Thus it’s imperative that cars complete their changing session as quickly as possible. That’s one argument for fast charging battery packs.

Very good discussion on charging speeds. I have the bolt and retired and travel 40k per year. 1C is good to a point as I’m in no big rush. But sometimes it’s very annoying to see someone waiting for me to charge to 80%. My next car was going to be the Kia EV 6. But thanks to you I’m going into a 2c charge platform. Now that makes more sense and save considerable amount of cash. Looks like another GM product with 2 c charging. Thanks for sharing this very important information. 👍

Slower DC charging speeds comes down to the user. It doesn't bother me at all.... but if you're the type that needs to GO GO GO..... well then you have to pay more to the "man" and buy a better car. 🤷‍♂ 💰💰

Eric you are great as always. Your videos need more love. Kyle Connor is dominating the youtube world and I don’t agree with everything he says. He has got dom away from a bolt and Dom is like me money wise i don’t make Kyle money and dom had a spark . I am not giving up on non Tesla charging I get every where I want to go and I know were the back up options are. We only have one ea location near me. We have lots of chargepoint cp 250 dual ccs chademo and some old and new evgo units. Plus she’ll recharge. Keep it up I know you have a regular job but this video was a home run. This topic should be on inside ev’s to bad you couldn’t be a guest for 1 week to. Go over this info

Will GM dump the Ultium battery so they can use 4680 batteries?? Battery plant on hold, LG wants out . GM selling so few cars that they are irelement in the market. Electriify America around me have 1 350 charger and is blocked by slow charging car, Use the 150 chargers to free the 350's for fast charging cars. Maybe leave the slow cars on CCS and have NACS for regular cars. How can these cars lower the prices when they lose on every vehicle? Tesla"s are the best at efficiency. Lightyear belly up.