Point Source, Constant Curvature Array, or Line Array | Which One Should You Choose? 

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I’m so tired of hearing some people prescribe a line array as the “fix” for every venue, and others claiming point source is the only way. It’s all about the application

A guest engineer who was a Clair Bros veteran and I were talking about my niche of business in live sound reinforcement and I told him I use the JBL VRX 932LA as my primary cab. He responded telling me that Clair Bros. actually designed these boxes and sold the tech to JBL AND that Clair kept their own version but it uses a 14” woofer instead of the 12”. Yes, you read that right. A 14” instead of a 12”. No one can dispute the R&D reputation of either JBL or Clair Bros. As JBL together with Altec pioneered the original loudspeaker in the first place, followed up by the FACT that MOST either currently boutique or were in the past and now high volume brand companies including EAW, Clair Bros., and plenty of others, started their newly designed boxes using JBL drivers. The first Kenton Forsythe (yes, the KF of EAW acclaim) 850s used JBL drivers, but ultimately when they start moving lots of product they need to reduce overhead and try to find another source, which is where RCF gained notoriety as the supplier to many EAW cabs, although it must be noted or argued that driver to driver, very few can compare to the musicality of JBL and EV drivers. They might get loud, but they don’t sound as good on the way there. Anyway, can anyone shed some light on that claim that Clair Bros. designed the VRX cabs? I love them and for my needs I have never needed more. I used to wish that I could could change the splay angle until I realized that they were CCAs and were basically “perfect” by design. I have yet to hear ANY other cab setup where you could stand right in front of them or 100 feet away with very little tonality difference to the ear, meaning they weren’t harsh up front and dint get noticeably dull at some distance. I know that there are compromises with a line array, as each “partner” cab is having a “dispute” with one or more cabs in the line, not necessarily the neighbor of course, but by frequency dependent wavelength, obviously, SOMEWHERE and in multiple places, zones, levels, even frequency response outcomes, there will be problems, and these are bound by the laws of physics. It is for this reason that the drivers have gotten progressively smaller, as CONTROL is more manageable with the longer, lower frequency wavelengths using smaller drivers, which equal a smaller “baffle” if you will. You can’t manipulate every six inches within one 12” or 15” driver, but you can using three 6” or three 5” drivers, not to mention back when it was L’Acoustics and Vertec with 15” low frequency drivers, you had to have a line a trillion feet tall and weighing a zillion pounds to get any REAL control, and even then there were compromises. I have listened to some big ass line arrays setup by the best in the biz, and was amazed at how BAD they sounded in different places. Harsh and shrill and absent LF info in one place, muddy and hollow in another, and flat response balanced mostly around FOH, naturally. But only some small percentage of the audience were paying for tickets around FOH. And isn’t that what this is all about in the first place? Pleasing every single seat? I have heard huge rigs sound great everywhere, but at the expense of throw, which I think is the better of the evils. They throw farther than any old trap horizontal array anyways, so what kind of dick measuring contest is this anyway, and whoever said that mixing at 112dbc at FOH was a mandatory minimum SPL or more importantly volume at the ear. From my wide ranging and high density 28 years of hardcore experience, the people who want to be crushed with SPL find a way to get to the front, and NEVER have I had one single person come from the back of any house and say they wanted it louder. Never. I HAVE had assholes sitting in non-designated seating areas 90 degrees off axis while I was mixing the local orchestra outdoors complain he couldn’t hear it. Mind you, he was sitting 30 feet off stage right, with a 70 piece symphony orchestra playing. I should have told him to transport back to 1820. I asked where he was sitting, he pointed, I couldn’t believe it and asked again, and I told him that I didn’t think that was a designated seating area. He told me that’s where he wanted to sit. I happened to at the time (2008) have an EON under my FOH table just as a cue for my non-soundcheck check. I told the guy I would come check in his spot shortly. I went to my trailer and grabbed two 100’ XLR and two 100’ stingers, and went to grab that EON. My assistant knew what I was about to do and stopped me and my impulsive “I’ll show you you stupid mothefucker, you want sound, I’ll give you sound that will make you bald!!” and yanked the EON from me and told me to ignore him and mix the symphony. Cooler heads prevailed. Anyway, I feel like the whole idea of line arrays has lost its focus, been abused, and has become the only accepted cabinets, regardless of the venue. Short throw, very wide venues are not he place for line arrays where horizontal trap cabs would be a better fit. Even having multiple hangs of arrays with outfills are a compromise unless spaced far enough apart to evade cross cancellation or worse yet, deep and wide bandwidth comb filtering. And by the time they are far enough apart to reduce those problems, you have a hole in the frequency response that can’t be accurately filled. Point source is ALWAYS BEST, period. But that’s a loaded statement in itself. What is a point source then? Any two drivers in close company attempting to reproduce the same information will have a compromise, and then with crossovers the info is theoretically divided, but even then there is compromise, as the filters themselves have side effects. It’s all math of the highest caliber, hence the ever evolving tech ATTEMPTING to resolve these problems. The FIR technology used in many newer powered speakers to get the HF and LF drivers in relative phase comes to mind and are quite effective, allowing astonishing gain before feedback that older cabs can’t even compete with. So I return to the CCA. It might be termed an array, because it is, but as they are joined, they become more than the sum of their parts, especially when driven from one bug amp channel per side. Using separate amp channels, even when the same model of amp, does something to the unification of the sound. The impedance per channel is layered, thusly the phase response. All I know is that when I hang three VRX 932s aside and give them big Crown power, they simply sing like no other. I’ve had hangs of four, five, six, eight, RCF HDL20s, and while they sound good and make volume, they don’t “sing”, and that’s ultimately what our job is, to make the people on stage who are singing be heard louder such that a wider and deeper audience can hear them through a PA that sings accordingly. When the vocals just jump out at you clearly without a bunch of manipulation, and you can walk anywhere around and it still sounds great , you know you have a unified system. Of note, another quick Clair story. A guy brought his support package with a very notable tour to a 1000 seat venue where I was house guy. This was maybe 7 years ago. We had four dbl 18” JBL subs, but he went ahead and brought his pair of Clair dbl 18” subs in. He asked me to remove the pair we had which were mobile. I did. Before hearing his subs I asked him about why he only wanted to use his pair. They were even placed in a kind of compromised position, on stage, at the downstage corners, where they could have been easily placed on the floor, even together off stage down center. This was fixed seating room. He told me he would take one pair of these cabs over a row of anything else, or otherwise more of these cabs. he said that somehow or another, Clair had finally figured out the magic. i think the boxes were even called a. "C" something, maybe C218, the "C" being for "coherent" . And boy was he right. They sounded awesome. Just awesome. When soundcheck was almost dine he showed me how they were barely being touched, and indeed up close they sounded effortless in their sub-frequency response, and I'm not sure what filters they were using, but there was NOTHING above 90 hz coming from those cabs. Yeah theres never supposed to be anyway, but despite what others may say, get up close and listen, and info even up into the 200-300hz range is bleeding past the filters. not with these. and they were doing 25, 23 hz like nothing I've heard besides a 21" piston driven driver. Anyways, VRXs rule, screw the naysayers. They are like a point source and an array as one. To wit, any cab with more than one driver is an "array" and even one system with multiple drivers in proximity enough for frequency interaction is an "array". But if one cabinet is considered a point source, then two or three VRX932s together become "as one" and arguably become a very high SPL, very articulate, controlled beam height point source cabinet. You know that at one point in the past, Clair Bros. experimented with using just TWO 21" drivers, back to back, driven by two channels of massive amps driving the piston drivers, on U2 coliseum type gigs. it worked well as far as control of SOME bandwidth, and easily handled the needed SPL. But ultimately they didn't have the tailorable tonality that the systems guys and FOH mix guys were seeking snd had grown accustomed to. That is all. As you were.

Another advantage of a constant curvature array... Some constant-curvature arrays (like L'Acoustic A-series) can also be flipped on their side for when you need really wide coverage.

I've been a sound guy for 34 years. I did my first tour in the summer of 1989. Eventually I was touring with big enough bands to take production on the road. I was lucky enough to get to use Showco's Prism rig from time to time. It was a very secretive concept at the time. But it sounded great. The way I understand it is, there were about 4 different types of trap boxes. The concept was based on a horizontal array, as opposed to the vertical arrays of today. It was explained to me that the furthest seats were the first thing tackled...and the top row(s) of speakers would address that. And each additional row would commence filling in the audience space, using various combinations of the four types of boxes, in each row, to address/alleviate phase interaction...as it worked it way down. In my mind, the coverage and sound, was far more desirable than a current line array. I'm sure it would be cost prohibitive to do that in todays audio market... But it was very interesting technology.

Oh, and by the way, I used my VRX932s, two aside, in a tennis stadium where I have been the stage manager on many huge shows with huge hangs of world tour type line arrays, the best, from Martin, JBL, L’Acoustics, etc. I had my normal mix going on, and only had to cover maybe 500-700 people, but some were across the stadium in VIP boxes. I was mixing from my iPad of course. At 30’, I had 110+dbc. Later I went to the other side where those VIP boxes were, and one of the patrons asked if I was doing the sound from my iPad, and they thought that was neat, but also commented that it sounded amazing, and that they could hear every note and every bit of the vocals, perfectly, and even though it sounded very full and great, they were happy that it wasn’t overpowering. I measured the SPL at that spot, 175’ from the PA. 100-104dbc. I try to keep my mixes at about 100-102 with 105dbc max in the middle of the room or listening area. Enough said. The passive VRXs sound better than the powered ones by the way.

Michael, had no idea you were on YT. You’ve come through my room with multiple artists. Although I stay anonymous on YT, I’ll say your mixes always sound great! 😊

If I had an hour left to live I’d watch this show, because every minute feels like a lifetime.

One of my biggest gripes with working with an audio vendor for my job is their go to "solution" (for most vendors) no matter the space or size of the environment the system would be in is to get a full range speaker line array system for long throw situations. And the room could be a 50ft depth with 14ft ceilings. Thank you for giving me the info I need to know if the vendors are scamming the company I work for lol

Great informative video ,when I do medium to large venues I use EAW kf850 and sb850 point source speakers and large venues to festivals I use martin audio line arrays

Danley Sound Labs is creating a new category you could add to these three. A point source with a high number of drivers. The Jericho J8 has 46 speakers in one box, combining to make one point source, which allows them to throw sound much further. That's why you see them in the stadiums lately. It's interesting to see where they fit into or in between the other three categories.

Greatly appreciate your inputs. Its a great blessing.

Great clip Michael! From Barcelona

Your videos are usually very educative and informative, thank you for impacting us with vital information like this. I'm a sound engineer for my church. I'm not professionally trained for it but I'm learning on the go. You talk so much about the science/physics of sound in your choice of words. And sometimes I get lost in your explanation. Any advice on how to understand the science of sound? And the lingos you're using?

Good stuff! Even better if you could translate audio math spreadsheet to metric? Feels are a bit uncommon here at Europe 😁

Great video

Michael, great video! I’m learning a lot from your channel. I have a question for you: how would you set 2 point source speakers (JBL EON712) in a worship gathering with the band playing in the center of the room? It is a small room, maybe 10 meters long by 5 meters wide. People will be standing around the band 360 degrees. I know it is not the best gear for the gig, but that’s all I have available to use this time. In the past I used to place the speakers at opposite corners facing the center of the room, but after all I am learning, I don’t think this is the optimal placement.

What an awesome video! Super informative stuff, and all explained really well. I do have one question though. Would something like a small line array system work for smaller gigs? An example would be using HDL20'S for a small 200 cap venue, with 2 or even just 1 on each side? Or in a venue where constant curvature would be ideal, would it still sound fairly ok with line arrays?

as you were talking about point source boxes, did you consider products like those from danley? I know that they have some very large loudspeaker enclosures that can achieve exceedingly high spl's, I know that would reduce quite a lot of the benefits from some of the other point sources that you mentioned though.

Hello, Thank you for the explicit, detailed description,.....One thing you forgot to mention is that ALL systems you outlined CANNOT achieve the very task they were designed for. They can give you a lot of sound, throw it reeeeeaaaaaaallllly far, but NONE OF THEM CAN PLAY MUSIC. They CANNOT play STEREO music (the way was created by the artist) for more than 20% of the audience that are equidistant between the speakers. Everybody Left or right of the venue hear ONE channel only,....that is worst than mono, that at least is a summation of both channels. All of the software sims show only the "throw" and the dispersion of the sound. NONE of them show any Stereo image information, because there is none. It is similar to going to the movies and only 20% of the people that sit in the middle can see ALL the colors. The ones on the left will see ONLY red yellow and orange and the ones on the right will see ONLY green, blue and violet. So, welcome to the pre 1930 audio show,....Line array half of the music show. Sorry to bust your bubble.

GREAT VIDEO I HAVE A QUESTION? Despite the differences between line array and point source being dispersion or coverage,is there any other difference between line array and point source speakers with reference to the manufacture components eg inbuilt cross over unit,voice coil ?

At 19:26, you should have noted, by your equation you provided, that a longer line array doesn’t just mean you can focus more mid and low energy, but as you said, line array length equals any frequency whose wavelength is the same. But another problem is that it’s not that simple, as we are equating the height of a stack of speakers with 72 degrees vertical coverage at that wavelength, regardless of what’s going on in between. What if you had one cab that had a 6” LF, and one 1.5” inch HF driver, but the cab is 18” tall, and they call it a line array. The LF drivers are easy enough to sort out, as unless you fold the LF driver, which they DID DO with Vertec cabs, especially the later series, was the mid drivers were indeed folded to allow more drivers emitting forward focused or at least as controlled as possible within one cab, forward and with a pattern. But what if my hypothetical speaker? Are three 1.5 drivers, on a “lens” or “waveguide” AKA the horn, that’s let’s say 90 wide by 60 vertical degrees in separate 18” tall cabs with one 6” driver spaced equidistant from the Hf driver and the edged, meaning one driver 6” from the edge and the other 12” from the same edge. And of course how to do you define where the “driver” “starts”. When you could have a myriad shaped waveguides, but lets just mean the driver itself, the voice coil. You’ll notice that the voice coils on very small drivers meant for high SPL are relatively big compared to the driver cone or diaphragm itlsef. Note the old JBL 2445 HF was massive, but that’s a different story, but also why big line arrays don’t need huge voice coiled HF drivers because it’s really the BAFFLE that matters. So would my example still get you the figure you stated? The drivers would be 18” apart on 18” cabs. So that’s 3 feet or 372hz. Are three of those cabs and those three 6” drivers going to give me 72degrees of beam at that frequency/array height, now 4 feet, so down to 279hz? I doubt it. Maybe so. I doubt it. It really should be a more defined and qualified equation, but I like it. So what does that mean for the rest of the frequencies above that height? Do 450, 600, get progressively tighter beams, maybe like at 4’ everything above 279hz gets progressively narrow, would be like 48 degrees, (2/3 of 72 degrees) for 450, and then maybe like 36 degrees for 600hz? It needs to be defined what makes for a line array cab in the first place, and box height isn’t just dictated by driver sizes and desired orientation, but also desired spacing. If they don’t want 12” drivers closer than 14” apart, center on center, then they’ll engineer in an inch above and below in the cab such that they can’t be oriented that way. My VRXs are such a box, and that’s where I get that number. I, sure they used a combo of depth, angle, as easy box, any box, is really a progressively smaller subwoofer enclosure which just happens to also house a HF driver. They may or may not want 120hz fighting itself to work. But, at 858hz, you have a 14” tall array, and each line array is supposed to have “control” down to at least 1k, hence the three stacked horns with 14 vertical inches in a VRX. Hmmm. Also note that the JBL LF drivers in that line are shaped uniquely from conventional LF drivers. The front outer parts of the cone are similar to conventional cones as far as the depth of dish, but towards the driver the depth of the dish steepens dramatically, and I think it’s bevies they want the drivers to be a certain distance apart, as in the voice coils, such that they have figured out how low the HF drivers will control frequency and beam, and then they might determine that say, my 858hz example, they want below that frequency to be steered as well, passively as much as possible. The higher the density, the lower the frequency you can control. When you force a fixed splay, you also dictate the distance between the LF drivers, and as such, the drivers are tilted back with the drivers slightly closer to each other, and if the driver is further away from the front edge of the cone, or deeper into the cab, the closer the drivers will be. In the VRXs, when stacked, the LF voice coils are roughly 10” apart, so does that mean that those three as their own line array, totaling 30” center to center, would have a 72 degree pattern at 446.5 hz? Maybe. But just calling the height of a line array as one of the parts of the equation is opening up a lot of variables. That’s all. Problem is we are assuming that each cab has a LF driver with the cab ats close to the edge of the driver as is practical, and then one or more HF drivers packed as such also. In the VRX, the HF drivers are at the very back of the cab, with a manifold looking waveguide which ends up the height of the cab, and in fact, uniquely to the VRX and Vertec, that waveguide doesn’t have a horizontal border at the bottom and top of each cab, yet another contributing factor to them sounding “as one”. When stacked in the CCA, the HF section looks like and sounds like one long continuous HF driver, roughly 50” in arch. With drivers in a “line” array, all vertical, the relationship between the distance of the drivers can’t be changed, which is where the splay adjustments make a huge difference, and it’s as much a contributing factor in vertical coverage as the degree of the cabinets top and bottom edges, which are no doubt indeed designed around this factor. The old Clair Piston Box was 2 x 12” drivers and a HF driver and the boxes were extremely deep and narrow. These were horizontal array types, so the splay was a horizontal splay. But closing the rear of the cabs all together gave a wider pattern and putting space between the rears narrowed the coverage, which might seem obvious but it was less because of the shape of the cab but the distance between the drivers dictating where some kind of pattern control would get down to. It’s so da,n complicated but so damned simple at the same time. But certainly not linear.

Thanks for your video

Thank you Michael for the video. I have learnt immensely. Question. As an estimate, how many cabs array do you need to cover an audience of 5,000 with ground level and tier seating layout in an arena. I think it varies between venues and difficult to design a system unless you are there.

Don’t forget that EACH JBL VRX932LA is in itself an “array” as each cabinet has three horns vertically placed. How many other cabs have multiple Hf drivers within one cab? Some, but few.

I have 2 EAW KF850s, I play them side by side standing up. Would there be a significant difference if I laied the horizontally and stacked on top each other like a line array?

Any insight on the tendency of line arrays to be generally more prone to feedback than point source? I’ve heard this brought up a few times and experienced it quite a bit myself, but I’m not clear on the technical reason for it. Is it just because people try to configure line arrays to avoid the need for fills and then end up with too much of the coverage range hitting the stage?

Thanks for video👍

I have had a very poor quality experience with the VRX LAP series. Hope you had better luck than I did

Awesome video, been looking for someone to explain this. I’m currently using 2 qsc 12.2’s and a ks118 sub but I have been doing bigger weddings, would you recommend going up to a constant curvature speaker? If so any recommendations? I have been looking at mackie drm series, presonus cdl 12p , and yorkvill. Thanks for your vids ! A lot of good info !

Hey dude! Thanks for the video. Any experience or opinions on the Bose F1 Flexible Array Loudspeaker? I don't currently have the ability to hang stuff but my point source system isn't doing it for me as we are starting to play larger rooms.

Hey pal! I recently upgraded from the old JBL SRX to QSC KLA. It works amazingly for the immediate area in the stage in the bars and small outdoor places that we play, but that big-ol voice coil on the SRX throws for a literal quarter mile, whereas the QSC falls off substantially after about 100 feet. Is it realistic to use both for a big outdoor Street-Dance type setup? The clarity and dispersion on the QSCs (2 per side) are unmatched, especially this time of year when we move inside. I guess the bottom line is, is it reasonable to set it up in such a way to use both, the big 725 JBLs for the long throw, and the QSC for short and medium? Or would that cause more issues than it is worth?

I have 2 QSC K10.2 K2's 2,000 watt speakers and i have these for a few years now and i do love these speakers. I am thinking of at somepoint on gonna upgrade tthe Mackie Thump Mackie SRM V-Class Series, 15-Inch 2,000W High-Performance Loudspeaker, Powered-Black SRM215 V-Class. 2 of them

Hi Michael! What is range ratio? Do you have a video explaining what range ratio is in more detail?

Their are some speakers with fixt curves with different angles like the L-acoustics arcs, or A10 and A15. There you can have 10 or 30 degrees lind up.

i wanna buy speaker for my band wich one yal recommended

please i need a video how to calculate how many speaker i can connect together in one sub ? the important information about line array before i buy it

If I have to choose between the line array or towers (point source), both with subwoofers.... for a crowd of 500-1000. what would be the best pick? mostly for an outdoor event ...wedding and outdoor dance parties.

What can you say about RCF NXL-24's column speaker stacked 2 per side versus 4 X HDL6's per side? Would line array still get you more DB's and coverage?

Thank you for all your vids i learn a lot from all your tuto..i am from mauritius small island in the indian ocean ..my question is why is one line array box so expensif compare to a point source speaker..

Mike can you do a video on speaker placement using column I have a lot of column speaker or is the same as point source

Do you think the bose L1 pro 8 is a value for money im in the market of a Bluetooth speakers for our company new years party thanks in advance and merry Christmas and a happy new year!

👏😎👏 the VRX Its been on the market for a lil over 15yrs. I got mine on 2008. what do you think of the DB Technologies VIO X206. ill say very versatile as a point of source and line array.

Thanks for the informative video. Are line array speakers mostly active speakers?

Hi Michael Thanks again for another very helpful video😊👍 We currently have 4 older ev sx300 hanging in our church. They are 25 years old! Still running! We are wanting to upgrade to something better. We have recently purchased 2 Qsc ks212c subs which we are very happy with. Would the qsc k10.2 be a good option? Or the k12 maybe? Our room is very wide. Audience wider than the stage so good coverage is a must. There is maybe only 15 meters from the stage to the back of the room. 1 meter from the stage to the first row. Its totally the wrong way around! Haha!🤣 Should be turned the other way really but thats not an option unfortunately.

What about a dual 8" Line array vs dual 10" Line Array? Which sonic-ally sounds better? The 10" would seem to get better bass response, but I see a lot of dual 8" Line Arrays being sold. Thoughts?

Any opinion on the new "column type" speakers Vs traditional speakers?

Great videos! Question.....wouldn't a constant curvature array be a multi box point source, seeing all the boxes would have a common center point behind the boxes?

Looking up to you.

question: 2 Line arrays on sticks; How is that different from a point source being that it is not hung?

How do column array speakers fit into this setting. speakers like Bose F1 812 turbosound ip2000 and CDL12p

Is there any good way to use multiple points source speakers per side? For instance, 2 K12s per side?

19dB is not 9 times louder, when it comes to human perception of loudness 10dB is twice as loud, so 19dB will be almost 4 times as loud.

Could we stack a couple point sources?

I've always had doubts on the popular line array . Albert Einstein once said not everything good is popular and not everything popular is good😅

And also micheal can you use powered speakers with passive speakers point source

I don’t tend to like the sound of line arrays. Besides introducing massive comb nodes, the sagitta from the CD is so manipulated. Very much not like the way sound prefers to expand. However pattern control rules, so they are ‘convenient’ much like a low rate MP3

how about column speaker?

❤

Man.. I know your videos are full of fantastic views and opinions.: and a lot of technical stuff for gear and all that.. but I haven't been able to make it through ONE SINGLE video.. I'm bored to death within like 5 min.. I wish there's a way you can condense some of this stuff.. or approach it differently.. cause I just lose interest very quickly.. even though, I'm very interested in the subject matter..

You really really need B roll footage to show what you're talking about

Where can I learn about audio systems?

This is an unfair comparison. True point source would be something like the Jericho by Danley Sound Labs

Neither, unless you're on Taylor Swift's payroll.