Polygamy killed honesty 

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What's the SEC scandal? 😮

@@peachysparkles bogus claims by antimormons.

They did it for their families, kids, and wives. Read about the lifelong psychological damages done by the govt persecution to their own and other polygamous families. To the kids separated from their fathers. I dont judge, and neither should you.

We must reread the story of the Gibeonites in the Old Testament (Book of Joshua) to understand that even God's chosen leaders can go astray and lead us astray! Nephi said "I will not place my trust in the arm of the flesh" and that is what I do now

I love that idea. The "never permit . . . lead astray" nonsense is a moral hazard if I've ever seen one. Getting rid of OD1 would show some integrity on the part of the Church. By losing the 'never permit' stuff, it would (thankfully) open the door to the fact that the Men In Black make serious mistakes in the name of the Lord which might (I say 'might' with little real hope) steer the Church back in the direction of truth and light.

It's that very quote that has in fact lead the church members astray.

I believe there's more to it than that. I don't fully understand it but what I do know without a doubt is people put ALL their faith in our leaders then fall apart when they mess up. Our job is and has ALWAYS been to take our questions and concerns to God and obey him. I still believe in our prophet with all my heart. But the reason I can deal with his imperfection is, 1: I'm not perfect so why expect him to be? 2: He's not God. People learn about polygamy and leave the church. People learn polygamy wasn't really doctrine and leave the church🤷‍♀️. We're a people without a mind of our own. We go where the wind takes us. I'm an active member who never felt good about polygamy but knew one day something would make sense. Now that I'm finding out it was all evil doing and that makes sense. I'm grateful for the truth😊😊😊. My place in the church will remain the rest of my life. Look at our faithful members right now. They're still to this day completely committed to the practice of polygamy being doctrine back then and sometime in the future. Joseph F Smith grew up in that practice, it was all around him. So to him, that's what they believed.

​@StompMom5 I can't in good conscience sustain Russell Nelson as prophet seer and revelator. The LDS church is led by men. What are the fruits of the church?

" Once you choose to go down the path of lying... it cannot ever stop." Speaking of lying, what do you think of Joseph Smith's 5 to 6 year long career of charging people money to pretend to be able to see buried treasure, which was before he began talking about angels and golden plates?

That's a fascinating quote. What is the source of that letter?

@@boydx4687 In a letter to President John Taylor in 1887, Charles W. Penrose expressed concern that "the endless subterfuges and prevarications which our present condition impose ... threaten to make our rising generation a race of deceivers." (Solemn Covenant, p. 368)

I am actually transcribing those records right now and it is clear that some people are lying.

We don't need the Temple Lot affidavits to prove that Joseph Smith started polygamy. There is a mountain of evidence published during Joseph's lifetime to prove the issue. Of course Joseph and Hyrum denied teaching or practicing it, because it was against the laws of the land and of the church. Brigham and Heber practiced polygamy before Joseph's murder because they had been inducted into the practice by Joseph himself. DUH. Hyrum didn't accept polygamy until the spring of 1843, when Joseph gave him more power and authority. Hyrum married his first plural wife, Catherine Phillips, in May 1843. Three months later, Joseph and Hyrum believed that they had built up enough support for polygamy, and inducted enough followers into it, to be able to introduce the practice as official church doctrine. Here's what happened with that attempt: "In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. Legal affidavit of AUSTIN COWLES," June 7, 1844. "It was not only lay members who were caught in this apparent web of deception; some church leaders were equally befuddled. During a 12 August meeting of the Nauvoo High Council, Dunbar Wilson 'made inquiry in relation to the subject of a plurality of wives, as there were rumors about respecting it, and he was satisfied there was something in those remarks, and he wanted to know what it was. Joseph Smith, who was ill, was not at that meeting. His brother Hyrum requested a short adjournment and crossed the street to his home, where he picked up his copy of the 12 July revelation. Thomas Grover, another member of the council, later testified that Hyrum read the document to the group and said: 'Now, you that believe this revelation and go forth and obey the same shall be saved, and you that reject it shall be damned.' But several prominent church leaders, including the prophet's second counselor William Law, Nauvoo stake president William Marks, and High Council members Leonard Soby and Austin A. Cowles could not see the hand of God in the revelation. "Law, a prominent Nauvoo businessman, was solidly devoted to Smith until mid-1843. During the Bennett scandal, he quickly came to Smith's defense, reassuring the Saints that Church leaders did not condone 'spiritual wifery' or any such behavior. Smith held his counselor in such high esteem that he included him in the first small group of male initiates to the endowment ceremony in May 1842. And Law rendered much moral and financial support to a discouraged Smith when Missouri officials were attempting to extradite him on the Boggs case. "'By early 1843, however, Law began to waver in his commitment to Smith. Initial difficulties between the two centered on business matters. . . .But a deeper source of the Laws' disaffection was their detestation of polygamy. In an 1887 interview William explained that Hyrum Smith had shown him the "revelation on celestial marriage" in the fall of 1843. "Hyrum gave it to me in his office," Law said, and "told me to take it home and read it. . . . He and Jane "were just turned upside down by it" . . . William took the document directly to the prophet and commented that it was in contradiction to the Doctrine and Covenants. Smith noted that the section on marriage in the Doctrine and Covenants was "given when the Church was in its infancy, when they were babes, and had to be fed on milk, but now they were strong and must have some meat. He seemed much disappointed in my not receiving the revelation," William wrote. "He was very anxious that I would accept the doctrine and sustain him in it. He used many arguments at various times in its favor.' ("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard van Wagoner, pp. 63-65) Also: "In early 1843 Austin [Cowles] . . . .played an important role when a storm of opposition confronted Joseph Smith in the summer. On July 16 Smith preached, denouncing internal traitors, and Willard Richards, writing to Brigham Young, guessed that the church president was referring to William Marks, Austin Cowles and Parley P. Pratt. These men--the Nauvoo Stake President, his First Counselor, and an eloquent Apostle--would be a serious obstacle to Smith, despite his charismatic authority and ecclesiastical position, especially when one considers the dominance of central stake leadership in early Mormonism. "Soon William Law, a counselor in the First Presidency, would be another formidable opponent. "'Their opposition became public when Hyrum Smith read the revelation on polygamy, presently LDS Doctrine and Covenants 132, to the Nauvoo High Council on August 12. Three of the leading Brethren opposed it: William Marks, Austin Cowles and Leonard Soby. Considering the secrecy of polygamy, it is remarkable that Hyrum would announce it even to the high council. It is also remarkable that Marks, Cowles and Soby would openly reject it. This was a watershed moment in Latter-Day Saint history. "Undoubtedly, Austin soon saw that he could not function as a Church leader while he and Marks were opposing one of Joseph Smith's revelations so bluntly and completely. On September 12, according to the High Council minutes, "President Austin Cowles resigned his seat in the Council as Counselor to President Marks which was accepted by the Council." Ebenezer Robinson later wrote that Austin "was far more outspoken and energetic in his opposition to that doctrine [polygamy] than almost any other man in Nauvoo." After resigning his presidency, he 'was looked upon as a seceder and no longer held a prominent place in the Church, although morally and religiously speaking he was one of the best men in the place." . . . Toward the end of April 1844, the anti-polygamy dissenters began organizing a new church. William Law was appointed President and selected Austin Cowles as his First Counselor. Not surprisingly, Austin was "cut off" from the main LDS Church for apostasy soon thereafter, on May 18. He then helped write the fateful first and only issue of the "Nauvoo Expositor," the paper which so infuriated Smith with its criticisms of him and public discussion of polygamy. It appeared on June 7, with an anti-polygamy affidavit by Cowles on the second page. The destruction of the "Expositor" press, engineered by Smith, set off a chain of events that led to his martyrdom.' ("In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith," Todd Compton, pp. 549-50) Seeing as how Smith wanted the printing press destroyed so that they couldn't publish more details about his polygamy practice, it's disingenuous to argue that Smith didn't teach or practice polygamy. This is just one small item of evidence to prove the point. There are dozens of other contemporarily published documents to support this material.

That's true. For instance: "Fabricated stories designed to protect the [Nauvoo polygamous] individuals are seen elsewhere. Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage. Sarah Pratt was not the only woman to suffer from this policy. The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals.....Jane Law, wife of Smith's counselor William Law, was also blacklisted for rejecting Smith's polyandrous proposal." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard van Wagoner, pp. 38-39.) "Lying for the Lord" has been a practice of Mormonism from the very beginning.

It's natural to try and downplay or hide things that don't benefit you. However several times the church is outright dishonest about things. They have academia make complicated arguments in favor of something that can quite easily be shown to be false.

@@Telavian self preservation most certainly trumps truth seeking

Lol, the Lord's true church has been on Earth for a few decades out of millions of years? Lol, what an impotent, useless God

I agree 🥺😞💔

I did not know that about Denver. It certainly shows someone's character. I never personally really liked him however a lot of people have gotten caught up with his movement.

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I don't think those followers of Denver realize why they are having such discord and difficulty coming to an agreement on their Statement of Principles project. They don't know (or if they do, they don't care) about Denver's secret dealings to push the new scriptures forward, whatever the cost. It cost multiple women their virtue all because Denver undertook gratify his pride and vain ambition (new scriptures and temple fund), to exercise control and dominion and compulsion on the souls of women ("in any degree of unrighteousness"). These Denver followers are knocking themselves out to come to an agreement on a Statement of Principles not realizing why they can't and it's because Denver fulfilled D&C 121 - the heavens withdrew themselves and the Spirit of the Lord was grieved with Denver's actions - amen to his priesthood and authority. No amount of drafting of proposals and trying to come to an agreement will ever work until Denver comes clean and repents. Which will never happen. The church, and these off-shoots, are always lead by leaders who say they don't want to be followed (lie) and who feel they never make mistakes that need to be repented of.

@@danburnside4480 It does seem like the leaders almost always start with good intentions and then get corrupted over time.

Great comment

Look at how quickly they stepped to the music with covid vaccines. That was a big wake up call to me

Well, Smith was forced to end polygamy for real because Reed Smoot had been elected to the US Senate in 1903, but he was prevented from being seated because it was discovered that church leaders were still authorizing new plural marriages since the 1890 Manifesto. So Smith realized that in order to get Smoot seated, he had to bring the church into the 20th century and ban all new plural sealings, even those in foreign countries.

That’s really the conflict, isn’t it? When does someone finally stand up and arise? When does someone finally repent and come to the Lord with a broken heart - no matter the cost. No matter the sacrifice. No matter the consequences. Even Joseph F. has the responsibility to seek out truth no matter his circumstances. Look at all of us here. Most of us grew up believing and trusting our LDS prophets and seers. These are men that don’t lie, right? What if they do and we know they aren’t speaking words of God? Do we move that lie forward? Do we get to lie for the Lord as well? These are men that know the the truth, right? I had to lose everything in my life to finally wake up to the fact that we are all being deceived by men we hold up. Men that are probably good folks and try to live good lives. But that will be the battle until someone finally awakens and realizes the awful situation we find ourselves in. We cannot and should not ever rely on the precepts from men. It must come from God and God doesn’t lie. He can’t! He just can’t otherwise we would cease to exist. He cannot change. He just can’t otherwise we cease to exist. So it gets to our dire situation. Joseph F had a decision to make about lying. You have a decision to make about lying. Would you ever lie for the Lord? Many of our faithful prophets have lied and continue to deceive and hide their actions. May God grant us mercy and grace as we finally awaken to our awful situation. Salvation consists of knowing our Lord and Savior and receiving from him the words of Eternal Life. This is on you. It’s on me. It’s on Joseph F. No one is going to lead you to the tree of life but God and God doesn’t lie to get you there.

Great comment Matt!

@@mattenger7064 You didn't lose your parents because of the lie. You didn't sacrifice to cross the plains because of the lie. You didn't get thrown out on a mission at 15 and almost die because of the lie. You weren't raised being told lying for the Lord was justified. If you were raised in the church in the last 50 years you were taught lying was wrong and you couldn't get a temple recommend if you weren't honest in all your dealings. You weren't personally bombarded by master liars/manipulators like Brigham and Heber. You didn't have to rely on those men for your very survival. You weren't taught that polygamy was a divine commandment from God necessary for your salvation nor were you pushed to practice it. When he went looking for the truth he was presented with several women who claimed, and were willing to sign affidavits, that they were his uncle's wives, so he believed it. And he was convinced that his uncle, who he believed was a prophet, lied about his polygamy in the name of protecting everyone. I preach all the time that when you become an adult you can't excuse your behavior because of your upbringing. But there is a psychological element that comes into play when you are cut off from the rest of the world, when you are brought up in a tight knit community with little outside interaction. I would not have the same expectation for discerning truth of someone who grew up a gypsy, an amish or a member of Warren Jeffs community, as I would of Brigham or you or me. I would never excuse Brigham,, Heber, Taylor, Woodruff, Snow or others who were adults, who knew what Joseph preached, who knew what the scriptures taught but who lied to justify their sins. Joseph F. will have to answer for his lies but if you think his situation is the same as yours, read the above again. I believe Joseph lied because he was taught and believed that polygamy was a commandment from the Lord received by his uncle and that it was necessary for salvation and that the world just didn't understand it so they persecuted them and tried to stop them from practicing their religion. And he was taught lying was necessary in order to keep God's commandment and protect their families. Joseph F. was as much a victim as the young brides were. I grew up in the church but I never put the prophets on a pedastal. I lost nothing when I discovered the lies as my foundation was always on Christ not prophets. And what mattered most to me was truth. No, I would never lie for the Lord. That doesn't mean I can't have understanding and compassion for Joseph F's situation and the psychological elements he had, that thankfully I did not.

@@mattenger7064 You make good points Matt and I agree. Something I have pondered though is, suppose the Nazi officer asks me if there are Jews hiding in the attic and I know there are, what do I say? To say there are not would be a lie. To say they are would amount to a death sentence. I know it is a different situation but do you think in Joseph F. Smith's mind it might have seemed similar?

@@timoaks1372 I think this is a completely different scenario…. Joseph F is lying when the church was supposed to stop the practice of plural marriage. He could have stopped the practice and ceased lying. This is the point of the video. You’re talking about saving lives.

Doug, I taught at the MTC in Spanish in the early 90s, my brother taught there too a bit later in English.

@@robfotheringham2289 I was there in June 1993. Tennessee Knoxville was my assigned mission. Must have been your brother. He was excellent. I appreciate your attitude and the information you've presented. God bless you and your family.

I don't know if the letter is viewable. My source was footnote 207 in: www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V18N01_11.pdf

You are asking the right questions now. Why would you assume that one man is good over another just because of a given title? We’re not apostles and prophets of old capable of great evils and lying? Why would it be any different today? Well maybe it’s because the church pushes this narrative that the prophets and apostles are nearly infallible, such is not the case and neither fair to members or the apostles themselves s.

" There are many instances of people who died friends of Joseph Jr that said he was a polygamist." Not only that, there's a mountain of evidence published during Joseph's life which makes it perfectly clear that he started and practiced polygamy. Polygamy was the prime cause of his murder, for Pete's sake.

Joseph F Smith was a man of honor and integrity and his seed and posterity are a Testament to the fact that God honored him all the days of his life and will continue to honor him through out the endless ages of Eternity.

@Cameron - Amen to that.

@@cameronsmith5786 2 Nephi 9:34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. So I guess this scripture doesn't apply to him? Nice I like the way you are thinking. Ha Ha

Uhhhh....he's the guy who banned new plural marriages, while his predecessors for the previous half century refused to.

Joseph F Smith was a LIAR and a COWARD! Unless polygyny is rejected, there is no hope for upholding the essential equality of the sexes - if not indeed on every point - well then, at least in that one crucial and foundational point which is CENTRAL to the distinction between humanity and the beast brute creatures: namely, Reason and Intellect!!!!!

There is a difference between not saying something and lying about something.

Wrong. Any form of deception is a lie. And I hand it to any church leader who keeps the tyrants in DC guessing. Bravo to these brave men.

@@fightingfortruth9806 So it's okay to lie if you're lying to the government?

The Scriptures are full of examples of prophets defying and deceiving wicked governments. Moses vs Pharaoh, Daniel vs Nebuchednezer, Christ vs the Sandedrin, Captain Moroni, and on and on. The Mormons fled the US government because they US government was hostile to them. They were right to. "Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness… it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Thomas Jefferson

Lying to keep a government from enforcing lawlesslessness. That is no longer a government at all, but a band of thieves and robbers. They had no authority to question LDS leaders about their marriages.

Proof, and I mean, Solid Proof please...... Oh that's right you don't have any....

@@broncofan4553 the LDS CHURCH and CHURCH OF CHRIST have both relinquished the denial. Sacred Lonliness and diaries have dates and testimony of first person recording of marriages. LDS search has actual dates recorded

@@SheBecameVisible513 Of course you cannot produce any Solid Proof! Ha Ha, Oh so you are going off of someone else's story. I get it.... I like where you are going with this...continue on....

@@broncofan4553 Yes, there is a mountain of evidence which proves that Joseph Smith started polygamy. I suggest you read the documentation I posted upthread.

​@randyjordan5521 what do you have to say about the mountain of evidence that brigham and Heber had many journals and discourses in church history altered to appear that Joseph taught and practiced polygamy. The burden of proof is on you. Perhaps you should watch some more of Rob's videos

They actually did since it was illegal.

God never sanctioned polygamy. He condemns it 3 times in the Book Of Mormon and a close examination of the Bible shows he never commanded it in ancient Israel.

BS. The entire House of Israel is founded on polygamy. The Book of Mormon wouldn't exist without polygamy with Jacob and Rachel's son, Joseph. Rob Fatheringham is an absolute clown.

Illegal how? Where in the US Constitution does the federal government have the authority to dictate marriage? Gay marriage will be challenged and overturned. Just like RoeVWade. Just watch. It's starting in Iowa already.

I really appreciate the courage that is voiced from people like Rob. It makes me think of something Joseph mentioned about prophets: The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished, and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth, and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, while they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men. Like Greg mentions above, God never sanctioned polygamy. “Brigham Young condemned Parley Pratt for doing exactly the same thing he was doing. He even observed at his death that he probably deserved to be killed by the jealous husband, because it was adultery for Parley to have done what he did. Brigham pronounced his own condemnation in this. What then is the distinction between the conduct of Brigham Young, on the one hand, and the exact same conduct of Parley Pratt, on the other hand, in the religion of Brigham Young? The difference lies in the fact that Brigham Young claimed to have the keys. If keys allow adultery, I want no such keys. If keys allow adultery, then I say damn me now, because I want nothing of it or your pretended keys.”

"The Federal Government had no right to outlaw the laws of the Priesthood." LOL. Historical facts say different. You must think that the USA is a Muslim nation, where the mullahs run the government.

The book of Mormon it’s a fairy tale. I’m so glad we the government to help us from everything that hurts people so bad like polygamy

Except the evidence seems to point to the fact that Joseph Smith never taught or practiced polygamy. In fact he preached against it