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Polygamy Under Brigham Young w/ Lindsay Hansen Park & Bryan Buchanan | Ep. 1834 

Mormon Stories Podcast
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We explore the tumultuous history of Mormonism after Joseph Smith's death, including Brigham Young's succession and controversial doctrines like polygamy and blood atonement. Lindsay Hansen Park and Bryan Buchanan guide us through the schisms, scandals and sexual dynamics of this era, from the chaotic leadership struggles in Nauvoo to the restrictive culture of polygamy in Utah. We examine how polygamy hindered missionary work and statehood, the harsh realities for women, the escalating conflicts with the US government, and the 1870s crackdown on plural marriage. Despite sympathizing with early Mormons, the hosts candidly critique problematic teachings and figures like Brigham Young. They argue that Mormonism still struggles from a reluctance to denounce past errors, which allows those harmful ideas to persist and hurt people today. This no-holds-barred journey illuminates a complex chapter of Mormon history.
Show Notes: www.mormonstor...
00:05:40 What percentage knew about and practiced polygamy?
00:09:40 Succession crisis
00:16:55 The Battle of Nauvoo
00:19:30 Winter Quarters, church headquarters at the time
00:24:30 What happened to Joseph Smith’s 30+ wives?
00:28:40 Members starts a frontier cult
00:35:40 Women who go rogue
00:40:00 Mormonism under new leadership
00:45:00 Settling in Utah
00:50:00 Orson Pratt publishes “The Seer”
00:52:13 Polygamy causing trouble in Mormon missionary work
00:58:25 One of the most cancerous parts of our culture is that you can lie for the Lord
01:03:20 Does this feel like human trafficking?
01:12:25 Hyrum Clark story
01:17:17 Shenanigans during missions
01:22:45 Polygamy as a prerequisite for leadership
01:24:30 The Mormon Reformation
01:28:55 Favorite story in Mormon history - Mary Avers Young
01:32:30 Brigham Young starts the Mormon Reformation
01:35:35 What is the Blood atonement?
01:38:14 Height of the Reformation
01:41:22 Jedediah asks people to confess their sins, some they didn’t even commit
01:45:10 Brigham Young decides to go to war against the Government, July 24th, 1857
01:51:14 Ann Eliza Young
02:00:35 Brigham’s polygamy was motivated
02:02:27 Underage polygamous wives in the handcart companies
02:06:36 Law of Purity
02:12:21 John D. Lee and the Mountain Meadows Massacre
02:27:00 Dr. King Robinson
02:23:13 Emmeline Wells - one of the most powerful women in Utah
02:35:03 Women's suffrage
02:39:39 Martha Hughes Cannon
02:44:18 Martha Cox
02:46:07 Mormon Dixie Wine, putting wine in the temple
02:46:12 Juanita Brooks becomes drunk
03:07:18 How was Brigham Young so wealthy?
03:11:53 Brigham got posthumously married to Martha Brotherton, etc.
03:19:52 I’m not one to erase history, we need to acknowledge the horrible things
03:20:52 She is loyal to Mormonism, she wants us to be good
___________________
At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well as scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals.
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1. Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology
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3. Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions
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26 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 276   
@Kaitybardot
@Kaitybardot 10 месяцев назад
I’m an ICU nurse and we laugh at dark things too. Lindsay is absolutely right, it’s a trauma response. Some things you either gotta laugh or cry. Death, polygamy, lifelong lies by the church… it’s all pretty traumatic.
@galejohnson8086
@galejohnson8086 9 месяцев назад
Ditto….was critical care nurse for 40 years
@oliviadibden5687
@oliviadibden5687 5 месяцев назад
I was a trauma nurse in Belfast in the 70s, black humour was definitely a thing. Think it helped us through a lot of horrific things. Also kept a lot of us from developing PTSD. I’m in my seventies now and my humour is still black T.G
@hsavage2899
@hsavage2899 10 месяцев назад
Lindsay and Bryan are AMAZING historians! These are my favorite MS episodes.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
Yuh, MSP is better than MSNBC.
@lynaeriding383
@lynaeriding383 10 месяцев назад
I definitely want more of this. Knowing what has really happened is helping me heal very personally. There is too much erasing of history by the church. That definitely has not helped. The truth does set us free.
@kamilziemian995
@kamilziemian995 2 месяца назад
I wish you all well in you healing.
@VTheYo
@VTheYo 10 месяцев назад
I love how excited Bryan and Lindsay get about Mormon History! It’s sooo fun to listen to them!
@jeffedmundson3934
@jeffedmundson3934 10 месяцев назад
43:05 "It's the leaders making the poor choices, it's all of the rest of the people that are paying the price for it" - She just summed up all of human history in this simple statement.
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
Yes! We need to figure out why we follow actual psychopaths and narcissists, instead of sane intelligent people. And change it.
@rebuildingmylife400
@rebuildingmylife400 10 месяцев назад
💯
@rosehannah4845
@rosehannah4845 8 месяцев назад
Humanity constantly suffering for Greed. Sick.
@jamesstrawn6087
@jamesstrawn6087 4 месяца назад
The problem is that someone does have to lead and this falls, usually (🙂), to human beings. It is easy to become exceedingly jaded in leadership simply because there is the realization that rising through the ranks does not usually mean an increase in competency.
@sylviagonzalez3811
@sylviagonzalez3811 10 месяцев назад
I'm not Mormon but I absolutely love these historical episodes. I knew there was dark history but this is mind blowing and super super interesting. You guys are doing great work!
@reddish22
@reddish22 10 месяцев назад
This episode was so great. Both Bryan and Lindsay's expertise in Mormon history is readily apparent with they way they understand the overarching narratives. Thanks to both of them for sharing their expertise and to John for his insightful questions and comments.
@function0077
@function0077 10 месяцев назад
I love these episodes! I was raised Mormon, and what little knowledge I have of Mormon history, skips from Nauvoo to the present. I love hearing about tyrant Brigham and what happened after Nauvoo.
@tombaker6083
@tombaker6083 10 месяцев назад
This is not a good source.
@function0077
@function0077 10 месяцев назад
@@tombaker6083Then, in your opinion, what is a good source?
@kelellisa
@kelellisa 10 месяцев назад
@@function0077I can take a wild guess😂
@tombaker6083
@tombaker6083 10 месяцев назад
This source is very opinionated but so is the LDS church
@tombaker6083
@tombaker6083 10 месяцев назад
​@@kelellisaguessed wrong 😅
@edamameedamame1202
@edamameedamame1202 10 месяцев назад
From some who is not Mormon that HOARDING seems to be a main theme of this religion, wives, end of day prepping, church tithings ($286 billions in cash) and not much sharing, more religiosity, more for me and not for you, more for our God so we can go to Zion, more punishments for defectors….the list never ends. It is insightful to know how human brains can work, en masse, to support these rationalization of greed, vanity, fear and the thinking of NEVER ENOUGH. Thank you MSP I learn a lot about human nature and social evolution of extreme and high demand cultures and religions always here.
@sheliabryant3997
@sheliabryant3997 8 месяцев назад
@edam. X 93 million 🌹
@ExmoRaymo
@ExmoRaymo 10 месяцев назад
So looking forward to this episode. Lindsey and John always have such excellent, informative conversations
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
Uh uh uh, don't forget Bryan.
@dianethulin1700
@dianethulin1700 10 месяцев назад
This is one of my favorites! I love Mormon history; in particular this time period from Nauvoo to Utah. What I find interesting about John Milton Bernhisel and his encouraging people to be quiet about polygamy is that my 6X Great-grandmother was married off to him in plural marriage. This took place in the Mansion House where Dr.Bernhisel was living and on good terms with both Emma and Brigham Young. One of the the plural wives of John Bernhisel was 15 years old and married the same day as her mother and his favorite wife. I think there were two mother/daughter pairs. He was a bad husband to my GGGrandmother who was granted a temple divorce. You should see his obituary that makes me very angry! My GGGGrandma was Isaac Haights sister who was besties with Heber Kimball
@_Nat_A_
@_Nat_A_ 10 месяцев назад
I love these deep dives into the history of Mormonism.
@McBelles
@McBelles 10 месяцев назад
Wow, I had no idea what a cruel and horrible man Brigham Young was. I knew he wasn’t good but not to this degree.
@merricat3025
@merricat3025 10 месяцев назад
I am nevermo. I knew very little about him
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
Wong wong wong.
@TheShodan92
@TheShodan92 7 месяцев назад
Same, horrific individual. Awful person.
@robertanderson5053
@robertanderson5053 Месяц назад
900am​@@merricat3025
@benjamingardea4511
@benjamingardea4511 10 месяцев назад
These two have such incredibly important voices. Lindsay’s passion for the topic is captivating. Thank you for this series and for plugging their podcast. I’m going to have to follow it.
@duncansonoryan
@duncansonoryan 10 месяцев назад
I really enjoy these historical episodes. Very interesting.
@LizaFergison
@LizaFergison 10 месяцев назад
History, good or bad, is essential. It encourages the open minded to do better. Those who ignore it simply repeat it.
@mylesmarkson1686
@mylesmarkson1686 10 месяцев назад
In fact, we're repeating Joey Baloney with Doofus Trump right now. He's like their new Messiah!
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
@@mylesmarkson1686 No, he is a paid pawn in their game, which WAS to put Tim Ballard in the WH. And filthy creeps stick together. He is the Q-Anon messiah, definitely. And the artist that did all those paintings of him riding to save the world is LDS, for sure.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
@@mylesmarkson1686 And the angel shall sound the trump.
@sheliabryant3997
@sheliabryant3997 8 месяцев назад
@Liza. 🌺🌺🌺. History: If we are to live truly today, WE MUST have understanding of the whole of yesterday.
@TheHughesHorde
@TheHughesHorde 10 месяцев назад
You do a great job John! I really appreciate how much your videos have helped me better navigate my relationship with my parents who are still active members.
@LittleOrla
@LittleOrla 10 месяцев назад
Fascinating discussion! I'm not Mormon so I really appreciate hearing this history.
@RebeccaRaven
@RebeccaRaven 10 месяцев назад
Oh, great. Another all-nighter for me. Fascinating, funny, tragic, this episode is everything...again.
@danielevensen5539
@danielevensen5539 10 месяцев назад
Just wanted to chime in and say that this is the most fascinating discussion on Mormon history that I've ever heard. Very well done, guys!
@bodytrainer1crane730
@bodytrainer1crane730 10 месяцев назад
This episode - wow! I figured "Mormon history" was whitewashed when I was a TBM but apparently it was bleach-washed. We have some juicy, naughty, terrifying, dark and hopefully unrepeatable history.
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
It’s repeating right now, though. Visions of Glory is stoking violent fires.
@Lindsey0007
@Lindsey0007 5 месяцев назад
What does “TBM” mean?
@bodytrainer1crane730
@bodytrainer1crane730 5 месяцев назад
@@Lindsey0007 true believing Mormon
@rconnor4546
@rconnor4546 10 месяцев назад
I need a book list!!!! Amazing stuff
@cleighwb
@cleighwb 10 месяцев назад
Netflix needs to make this a mini-series! It’s fascinating.
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
Well, only if it isn’t slanted to be a recruitment tool. And all those billions? Will be used to fight it tooth and nail.
@chumark54
@chumark54 9 месяцев назад
@cleighwb Indeed, though the Mormon church will use their $$$ power to stifle that project for sure.
@tgoose8717
@tgoose8717 6 месяцев назад
They should have an episode on each president
@Carlos-xz3vi
@Carlos-xz3vi 4 месяца назад
May I recommend a series named Under the Banner of Heaven. It’s on Hulu. Even though is a crime thriller about the fundamentalist Mormon church, it juxtaposes fundamentalist believes with believes from the early Mormon church. It goes back and forth. It’s brilliant and the acting is top notch.
@kamilziemian995
@kamilziemian995 3 месяца назад
I will watch it.
@mmklaar6948
@mmklaar6948 10 месяцев назад
Shoot, I missed you live. But I will enjoy it anyway. Thank you for opening my eyes to the many lies being propagated by the Mormon Church. You are a badass, John!
@function0077
@function0077 10 месяцев назад
Is anything I learned about in Mormonism true?! Heber J. Grant was an alchoholic?! WTF?!
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
Probably there is little truth. Sadly.
@nanamikamiya6500
@nanamikamiya6500 10 месяцев назад
John Taylor says: “No polygamy exists.” John Taylor thinks: “No, polygamy exists.” Not his fault people couldn’t hear the comma. /s
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
People mistake a coma for a comma.
@DeathValleyDazed
@DeathValleyDazed 10 месяцев назад
Loving this endless stream of Mormon history bits.
@fsjeep611
@fsjeep611 10 месяцев назад
I have wanted this episode for so long. Thoroughly enjoyed it!
@Donnie-Lee-Gringo
@Donnie-Lee-Gringo 10 месяцев назад
Mormon Stories should have Connell O’Donavan on for interview about LGBT 🏳️‍🌈 history in Utah. He’s an expert.
@mielimedina3146
@mielimedina3146 10 месяцев назад
Sooo interesting, I really like to learn about the ways Mormon history intersects with American history in general, thank for doing this y’all!
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
Much too entwined at this point. It’s scary.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
Uncovering a right good Mormon orgy.
@sheliabryant3997
@sheliabryant3997 8 месяцев назад
@mieli. WE HAD BETTER LEARN AND CONSIDER and REMEMBER and RECOGNIZE This PERILOUS and IMMINENT Intersection!
@sheenapetersen
@sheenapetersen 10 месяцев назад
I love listening to them, both! This is absolutely fascinating and revealing. Thank you John, you've helped me to find out the truth by hosting amazing people like Lindsay and Bryan!
@harlanlang6556
@harlanlang6556 10 месяцев назад
Really fascinating history! I remember watching a movie years ago about Brigham Young, and it seems that a lot of his real history was not included. Someone should do a remake of the real Brigham Young. It would have all the elements of sex, lies, romance, tragedy, killings and interesting "family" life. There's so much material that it could be a series.
@bsteiner4995
@bsteiner4995 10 месяцев назад
What an amazing episode and follow up the the first one. I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to these and am super impressed by the knowledge and memory of these hosts. I agree that lots of problems in the church today stem from not being honest about its history and just hiding or outright removal of it. Just goes to show that even from the beginning the PR comes first and foremost to retain power and authority over others. The image of the church is the most important thing to protect and really what every endowment holder covenants to sacrifice everything for. 😢
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
Endowed how? Do they have any more when they come out, than they had when they went in?
@MollyLuella
@MollyLuella 3 месяца назад
This has been one of my favorite episodes. These guests are amazing!
@ginarelic6635
@ginarelic6635 10 месяцев назад
My first twinge of polygamy pain was the book “The Giant Joshua” by Maureen Whipple. I had to put it high on my “shelf” until my shelf broke.
@lesliejentzsch1063
@lesliejentzsch1063 10 месяцев назад
John Taylor is the one that converted my paternal grandfather and told him he had to live polygamy. He immigrated to the US and located here in the Salt Lake Valley to live polygamy. This was after the manifesto.
@brooklynparkse
@brooklynparkse 10 месяцев назад
You know, maybe in another year I’ll have finally caught up on all the shocking, gross stories in Mormonism.
@Tartarsauce84
@Tartarsauce84 10 месяцев назад
There’s as many stories are there are people that have been touched by the church. It’s a rabbit hole that never ends.
@maam-yj8ph
@maam-yj8ph 10 месяцев назад
I have heard more horrifying stories from Mormon Stories and Mormon Discussion podcasts in past 72 hrs in this regard than I ever did my whole LDS life.
@justkiddin84
@justkiddin84 10 месяцев назад
There are many! There were other doomsday break off cults, small and large, that committed horrendous crimes going back through the whole thing.
@Onlyinohiocringeboss
@Onlyinohiocringeboss 10 месяцев назад
This is mind blowing but not surprising at all…. Human nature and the Mormon are not immune to crazy dysfunction
@causticpax
@causticpax 10 месяцев назад
Thank you so much for your bibliography. I kept on noting down titles and have so many book requests for my library.
@merrybachelorette
@merrybachelorette 2 месяца назад
I would love to hear more about those 9 women who left Mormonism and settled on their own - where is documentation on that and how can we find it?😅
@auzziemel8983
@auzziemel8983 10 месяцев назад
@Lindsay Hansen the last episode was wonderful. That episode had me click on this one. It was rich of depth of what happened. Thank you ❤
@kevinyou1999
@kevinyou1999 10 месяцев назад
30:20 this is painful given the Arizona case yesterday/today…
@connieburge2298
@connieburge2298 3 месяца назад
It turns out I'm a Leavitt too. It's fascinating to me to learn about everything you're exploring. Thank you for all of your work!
@FabricofTime
@FabricofTime 5 месяцев назад
This is fascinating. Brigham Young telling all the Mormons they need to bathe regularly made me chuckle. Like "c'mon guys, yeah, we're violent, problematic, and polygamous, but being stinky is where I draw the line".
@grandmaroxie2210
@grandmaroxie2210 10 месяцев назад
This was so good. Thank you for all this info
@andreas.3893
@andreas.3893 10 месяцев назад
Love these discussions, so fascinating! Thank you!
@bryans8578
@bryans8578 10 месяцев назад
Great episode. I just finished reading 'Wife Number 19' and it was eye opening. She talked a lot about some women going crazy and having to be institutionalized. Has there ever been a study done regarding STD's among polygamous families? I wonder if syphilis might have been a factor in these cases of women going insane. Not that polygamy wouldn't have the same effect. Terrible.
@shannons5790
@shannons5790 10 месяцев назад
Yes! That would be fascinating to learn about. I’m sure STDs were rampant.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
That's cuz the doo it wrong.
@isabellamartins1520
@isabellamartins1520 10 месяцев назад
Lindsey and Bryan are a delight to hear. So much information in their episodes! Great episode 👏🏻
@anoriginalcreationx
@anoriginalcreationx 10 месяцев назад
I have been doing some deep diving on my ancestor's who were early members and those who emigrated from England and one of my ancestor's has a story about how he "believed in polygamy and knew it was from God" although his first wife's story says that it was the toughest trial of her life. I can't even imagine how that must have been for her.. she came with her husband and young children whom she left behind when they got ill after arriving in the United States only to have your husband leave you to go preach the gospel and bring home a new wife.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
Scoot over honey. Both of you share that other pillow. United Order in bed.
@tooannoying
@tooannoying 10 месяцев назад
Lindsey and YOP is so great!! Thanks for this series. I’m a nevermo who is obsessed with cults. I meant high demand religions, oopsie.
@garikj766
@garikj766 10 месяцев назад
If they rename BYU and get away from using messy leaders for the name of the school. Suggestion... Take it back to values and a humbler time of the people as just being a people. Make it more a people/ heritage relevant institution... Perhaps maybe even, 'Pioneer Institute'. Be a better starting point looking to new frontier, than to be continually stuck in this rut.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
So you're saying the LDS leaders could be converted to MSP?
@elleeevee
@elleeevee 10 месяцев назад
John Dehlin is the goat
@raydunn8262
@raydunn8262 10 месяцев назад
Great show! Brigham Young was the Dewey Long of Utah. BY predates Long. Wow, religion holds people more than politics.
@harlanlang6556
@harlanlang6556 10 месяцев назад
How many people would follow Trump if he claimed to have a revelation?
@jamesstrawn6087
@jamesstrawn6087 4 месяца назад
John Lee, in his book, describes driving wagons during the Mexican war. He always seem to finish any activity more prosperous than previously, well, until Mountain Meadow.
@isekaity9113
@isekaity9113 6 месяцев назад
I’m ready for the next part 😊 nevermo here and this just great as a standpoint of similarity to English/literature discussions and their impact on society
@helencahn7293
@helencahn7293 Месяц назад
I want to be outraged because, as a non-mormon, I have lived in small majority mormon towns where entitlement and elitism was oppressive. But, I now see how mislead by the church these people are. 😮 My heart goes out to those who feel trapped by the indocrination.
@yu12si7
@yu12si7 10 месяцев назад
Thank you so much esp for your research re: John D Lee's wives. The "Mother" wife is my husband's 4G, her three-sister-wife daughters, his grand aunts. Your enthusiasm for learning this information and helping all of us, is so appreciated.
@Velmahepcat
@Velmahepcat 10 месяцев назад
Thank you for the details about Ann Eliza Young!! I recently learned who she was via genealogical research. I'm a never mo descended from the Webb and Reed pioneer families. This is absolutely fascinating.
@patricianoel7782
@patricianoel7782 10 месяцев назад
Thank you for your preparation and being so articulate in your message presentation. 👍
@danielevensen5539
@danielevensen5539 10 месяцев назад
When you guys talk about the loneliness and the stark reality of polygamy near the end, it reminds me of that old classic Chinese movie, Raise the Red Lantern.
@Maryfs1
@Maryfs1 10 месяцев назад
This is one of my favorite episodes. You guys did so great! ❤
@pamelatd
@pamelatd 10 месяцев назад
This was so good!! So many books to read and podcasts to listen to.
@gracebe235
@gracebe235 10 месяцев назад
Looking forward to Part 3! Sounds VERY interesting! It’s all been pretty good thus far!
@shannons5790
@shannons5790 10 месяцев назад
A couple of corrections and a caution: The individual sacramental cups (from what I’ve researched and others have said) were changed in 1918 during the Spanish flu pandemic to lessen the spread of disease. It had nothing to do with people becoming alcoholics from whatever amount of wine was in a shared cup (if anyone was an alcoholic, they likely had plenty at home to satisfy their needs). Additionally, Gardo House did NOT burn down. It was demolished in November, 1921, as it had many structural issues that the owners at the time did not want to address as they were deemed too costly. It’s a real shame as the home was beautiful. It’s important for these podcasters to get every detail correct as it makes them look incompetent when they are wrong about things that are so easily verifiable. Please do better.
@lindsaypark5752
@lindsaypark5752 10 месяцев назад
Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming because you're right- accuracy matters. As to these two critiques, perhaps Bryan and I need to do an episode on all our sources. On our Sunstone Mormon History podcast we do have shownotes to show where we pull our stuff. In this case, here's a couple notes. The Saints book famously touts the 1918 sacrament cups. It is true there became a more standardized tray after the flu epidemic. However, as early as the 1860's Brigham Young was already thinking about changing the goblet- and did. "I have no doubt, were we to offer the wine in Sacrament that some would swallow a pint if the tumbler would [hold] that much before they could bite it off. However, I will remedy that. I will have tumblers made that will hold a swallow and no more." Cleland and Brooks, A Mormon Chronicle: The Diaries of John D. Lee, II, p. 116. To see how it developed, Lancaster talks about this starting on page 128: scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/4862/ So it's messy. Different congregations moved from goblets and experimented with different styles. And they were at the mercy of what resources and talent were available in their local areas, since it wasn't correlated. If you go to the DUP in places like St. George, Vernal, etc. you'll see different types of trays they were trying out to remedy these problems. There's a lot of variety, especially in the 1870-1890s. As to the Gardo house, you're right. It's reductive to say it "burned down," and that's the risk of an unscripted interview. It did have a fire and an explosion that ruined the structural integrity and it became too expensive to maintain and was torn down. So again, it's messier than all of that. I appreciate people willing to call out things that bring questions to mind. On interviews like this, it's hard to remember all the things and mistakes can happen (I think I called Arsenal Hill, "ammunition hill" doh! So I'm not immune!) But there's also new stuff discovered every day that shifts what we think we know about old narratives. The beauty of history is it is a science and an art- always shifting with new sources. Bryan and I spend a lot of time in the archives so to be fair, some of this stuff is unpublished. I know J. Stapley is working on a new development of WoW and I'm sure he'll uncover some other great stuff too. I'm looking forward to that. Keep the questions coming!
@danielevensen5539
@danielevensen5539 10 месяцев назад
Regarding the story around the 2:18:00 mark - I remember hearing about burying the Salt Lake temple and moving down south when I was in primary. I grew up in the Salt Lake suburbs. I'm also pretty sure it's featured in Church History In The Fullness Of Times; not sure if the church still uses that or not.
@JP-JustSayin
@JP-JustSayin 10 месяцев назад
3:16:19 - the brethren know that the old doctrines do harm, but the closest they will go to casting them off is to say "the living prophets are more important than the dead ones"... they are cowards ... but they DO know.
@anthonydelfino6171
@anthonydelfino6171 3 месяца назад
The brothels in salt lake were a thing I grew up knowing about They also as I was taught, were walled off, and they would set things like ward boundaries such that you’d never walk past the brothels
@gingerlady785
@gingerlady785 2 месяца назад
I’m just coming across this episode. Love it ❤ Such a great conversation.
@DuchessChau
@DuchessChau 10 месяцев назад
If the church, or any institution, acknowledges their darker corner stones, it's inevitable that change will come. The shame alone will bring down statues and change the names of forts.
@shirlzitting647
@shirlzitting647 10 месяцев назад
...and the direction of farts.
@andrewlee6886
@andrewlee6886 10 месяцев назад
I went to Xela-Guatemala (02-04) on my mission John. I know you were in Guatemala too, what mission were you in? Great videos by the way. I binge watch them all the time! 🤙🏼
@mormonstories
@mormonstories 10 месяцев назад
North 88-90
@brokernathan
@brokernathan 10 месяцев назад
My son is on a mission there now!
@dominiquemmaurice
@dominiquemmaurice 4 месяца назад
This is absolutely fascinating
@monus782
@monus782 7 месяцев назад
“The end justifies the means” mentality can set one into a very dangerous path speaking from experience and that’s how we get things like ISIS and the Taliban. Although I’m one of your non Mormon listeners I’ve been reading the Bible as a former Christian and I’m starting to think that if Joseph Smith was a literalist and sort of a fundamentalist in the modern sense he was a bit more consistent about it compared to other leaders, and it Brighman Young was a sort of modern Moses then it’s fitting considering what the original one did through the Torah stories. People are nowadays concerned that the US is becoming a sort of theocracy like Iran but if you count Utah then I guess we’ve had mini theocracies for a long time despite the supposed Separation of Church and State (if you also count the many “cult towns” that have sprung across denominations in more recent times, there’s Clearwater in the case of Scientology for example).
@stephensamperi9251
@stephensamperi9251 10 месяцев назад
At its heart, Mormonism plummets believers right back to the original deception of the devil in the garden: you can be like God (Gn 3:1-14). But not just “like” God - you can actually become a god.
@marionbartley214
@marionbartley214 7 месяцев назад
Hello John and other quests today, while listening to the program today. I wish I would have heard all of this before joining the church. Which was 20 plus years ago, inactive for 7 years now. But if I would have heard all of this crap before joining the church. I would have said oh hell no I'm not going to join a church that's so screwed up in its morals past or present. Boy was the wool pulled over my eyes. Before I joined the church I questioned many things, when asking questions I was told it'll all be sorted out into the eternities, put your questions to rest and don't worry about it. It's a wonder we have any members who joined the early church at all going forward at this point. No wonder the Mormon church is crumbling in its membership. As more people find out the reality of it all. I believe more people will fall away. I'm going to continue listening to the program.
@stevenbergstrom4360
@stevenbergstrom4360 10 месяцев назад
I love the story of Elizabeth Rollins Lightner who stayed with her legal husband and left the Mormons and ended up in Stillwater MN running a bording house. She talks about a “visitor” who came to them and told them to gather to Zion because her sons will end up as solders in the coming civil war if they stay in Minnesota
@norgepolo
@norgepolo 10 месяцев назад
1:23:53 it’s easy to be granted statehood if the state’s demographics are similar to those of the current states and the population doesn’t practice a social custom that the majority of others find abhorrent. Utah wasn’t the only Western territory denied statehood for the such reasons. New Mexico petitioned multiple times for statehood but was denied until 1912 because the population predominantly spoke Spanish and wasn’t “White” enough.
@merricat3025
@merricat3025 10 месяцев назад
When I hear Plum Creek, I think of Little House on the Prairie
@haroldwhite5761
@haroldwhite5761 10 месяцев назад
Maybe I didn't catch or it wasn't mentioned, but I'm curious about the time period of the wineries. I think it was in the 1910s SLC did a sting to make Sanpete a dry county, maybe it happened in other counties IDK
@mormonismwiththemurph
@mormonismwiththemurph 10 месяцев назад
Interesting discussion. Mormonism in Utah is an area of church history I am less familiar with that Kirtland and Nauvoo. Brian and Lyndsey showed very good knowledge of the facts and history and were quite dispassionate in relaying the history.
@JP-JustSayin
@JP-JustSayin 10 месяцев назад
If RMN were to rename BYU he'd probably name it after himself. 🙄
@peterhoyt2529
@peterhoyt2529 10 месяцев назад
I compiled a little list of the wives of Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith, and Heber J. Grant as well as early apostles who were under the age of 18 at the time of their marriages to the prophets. You can defend, argue, etc, but as for me and my house we don't excuse adult men in positions of leadership marrying teenagers. Brigham Young Total wives: 56 (sealed to others) Wives under 18: Clarissa Decker age 15 at marriage, Brigham was 42 Elizabeth Fairchild age 13, Brigham was 43 (later unsealed) Diana Chase age 17 at marriage, Brigham was 43 Ellen Rockwood age 16 at marriage, Brigham was 44 Lucy Bigelow age 16 at marriage, Brigham was 45 John Taylor Total wives: 8 (sealed to others) None under 18, but he married Josephine Roueche when he was 78 years old and she was 26 Wilford Woodruff Total wives: 10 (sealed to others) Wives under 18: Emma Smith age 15 at marriage, Wilford was 46 Lorenzo Snow Total wives: 9 Wives under 18: Eleanor Houtz age 16 at marriage, Lorenzo was 34 Mary Elizabeth Houtz age 16 at marriage, Lorenzo was 42 Phoebe Amelia Woodruff age 17 at marriage, Lorenzo was 45 Sarah Ephramina Jensen age 15 at marriage, Lorenzo was 57 Joseph F. Smith Total wives: 6 Levira A. Smith was 16 at marriage, Joseph was 20 Julina Lambson was 16 at marriage, Joseph was 27 Sarah E. Richards was 17 at marriage, Joseph was 29 Heber J. Grant Total wives: 3 (all three were around his age) Heber C. Kimball Total wives: 43 Wives under 18: Ann Alice Gheen was 16 at marriage, Heber was 43 Nancy M. Winchester was 16 at marriage, Heber was 43 Amanda T. Gheen was 15 at marriage, Heber was 44 Margaret W. McMinn was 16 at marriage, Heber was 44 Orson Hyde Total wives: 8 Wives under 18: Helen M. Winters was 15 at marriage, Orson was 52 Ann E. Vickers was 16 at marriage, Orson was 52 Orson Pratt Total wives: 7 Wives under 18: Juliaette A. Phelps was 16 at marriage, Orson was 44 Margaret Graham was 16 at marriage, Orson was 57 George A. Smith (Apostle) Total wives: 7 Wives under 18: Hanna M. Libby was 17 at marriage, George was 28 Willard Richards Total wives: 14 Wives under 18: Sarah Longstroth was 16 at marriage, Willard was 38 Amasa Mason Lyman Total wives: 8 Wives under 18: Caroline E. Partridge was 17 at marriage, Amasa was 31 Priscilla R. Turley was 16 at marriage, Amasa was 32 Ezra Taft Benson (Apostle) Total wives: 8 Wives under 18: (No wives under 18, but he married Ane Larsen when she was 22 and he was 55 and they had two children) Charles C. Rich Total wives: 6 Wives under 18: Mary A. Phelps was 15 at marriage, Charles was 35 Emeline Grover was 14 at marriage, Charles was 36 Harriett Sargent was 14 at marriage, Charles was 37 Jedediah Morgan Grant Total wives: 7 Wives under 18: Susan N. Fairchild was 16 at marriage, Jedediah was 32 Rosetta Robison was 15 at marriage, Jedediah was 32 Marrietta Kesler was 16 at marriage, Jedediah was 39 Daniel H. Wells Total wives: 7 Wives under 18: Martha G. Harris was 17 at marriage, Daniel was 34 George Q. Cannon Total wives: 6 Wives under 18: (No wives under 18, but he married Caroline P Young when she was 33 and he was 57 and they had four children together) Brigham Young Jr. Total wives: 5 Wives under 18: Jane M. Carrington was 17 at marriage, Brigham was 20 Abigail Stevens was 17 at marriage, Brigham was 50 John Willard Young Total wives: 5 Wives under 18: Luella L. Cobb was 16 at marriage, John was 32 Joseph Angell Young Total wives: 4 Wives under 18: Clara F. Stenhouse was 16 at marriage, Joseph was 33
@lynnwalton814
@lynnwalton814 10 месяцев назад
Wow this is really disturbing stuff
@CatskillsGrrl
@CatskillsGrrl 3 месяца назад
New new drinking game is Every Time Bryan Says he/she/it is fascinating.
@jaclynrichmond1049
@jaclynrichmond1049 10 месяцев назад
I have to get her book, I've read the 19th wife by David ebershoff which is about her story
@merrybachelorette
@merrybachelorette 2 месяца назад
Having only listened to the first few mins an initial question comes to mind that I’ve had several times but haven’t ever really addressed - why would any church pass from father to son like a kingship? Where was this ever taught by Jesus Christ? In what way are any of these concepts a ‘second witness’ of Jesus Christ?
@merrybachelorette
@merrybachelorette 2 месяца назад
And I am still listening! I didn’t mean to suggest I was only going to listen to the beginning just that I’m commenting before I’ve gone too far in-
@function0077
@function0077 10 месяцев назад
This Mormon reformation madness is giving me Mao's horrific great leap forward vibes.
@AnnaReed42
@AnnaReed42 10 месяцев назад
Apparently Lindsay and I are related, because I'm a Leavitt too! I guess that's not hard, since they were a prolific family, but it's still fun to find new relatives. .
@lindsaypark5752
@lindsaypark5752 10 месяцев назад
Hello cousin!
@AnnaReed42
@AnnaReed42 10 месяцев назад
@@lindsaypark5752 Hello! Do you mind saying which branch you come from? I come from Dudley and his 4th wife, Jeanette.
@pauladee6937
@pauladee6937 10 месяцев назад
Whwere is the live chat.. hit like button so people get this info
@spencergellsworth
@spencergellsworth 10 месяцев назад
Hey, I've eaten sago lily bulbs, and they're really not bad. But I am glad that Lindsay touched on the ecocide that is part of colonization.
@rhondiesue1194
@rhondiesue1194 6 месяцев назад
I would like to see Polly Aird on the show, her books are very well researched. My 4x great grandmother's brother and nephew were the 2 Parrish's who were killed in the Potter/Parrish murders. 1:43:16
@Commenter2121
@Commenter2121 2 месяца назад
What are your thoughts on why Nauvoo polygamy exploded right after the martyrdom?
@Pay-It_Forward
@Pay-It_Forward 10 месяцев назад
Joseph F. Smith stated that Porter Rockwell was going to receive exaltation in Heaven even if he had murdered 14 men. Because he had protected Joseph Smith & Brigham Young.
@skier39
@skier39 8 месяцев назад
You need to invite Michelle Stone and/or Whitney Horning on your program if you want to be brave enough to explore truthfully the historical and physical evidence.
@Eugene384
@Eugene384 10 месяцев назад
BYU is the largest private college in the USA , yuck.
@chumark54
@chumark54 9 месяцев назад
I went to BYUH. I think we have to rename the schools. Like John Oliver said, statues (and something named after someone) are NOT remembering history, but to GLORIFY these people. And BY should NOT be glorified.
@ameelecoq8801
@ameelecoq8801 10 месяцев назад
Is pirate Woolley related to the David Woolley who married Christine Allred brown?
@ron3537
@ron3537 10 месяцев назад
Hmm, so it sounds like Emma Smith was the inspired one all along...🤔
@rconnor4546
@rconnor4546 10 месяцев назад
Any information on Pulsiphers?
@thomasrobertson9643
@thomasrobertson9643 10 месяцев назад
1:24:33 Utah was designated as a slave territory as part of the Compromise of 1850, Which brought California in the Union as a free state
@lamrom1419
@lamrom1419 10 месяцев назад
Is the Plum Creek, where the 9 ladies went with their families the same Plum Creek that is in, On the Banks of Plum Creek Novel by Laura Ingalls Wilder?
@KindredKaye
@KindredKaye 10 месяцев назад
No- they were in the Midwest. Pretty sure Plum creek is either in WI or MN
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