More like double the rate of inflation. On a long enough timeline it ends up being the same. See 2008 or sept 27 2024 stock market crash. People need a roof, reliable transportation and food. If the cost of any of those goes up faster than wage or salary, then your customer pool will shrink over time.
All my friends that were driving premium legacy cars in China have moved to Chinese EVs, not because they are downsizing but because is a more compelling offering. One went from a Maserati to a Li and when he showed me the new car he was so exited shoeing me all the tech it comes with. I really think legacy already lost China
The Chinese Delete America (and all foreign companies) program has something to do with it. Even so I agree the trend for EV value to be as good as the premium ICE vehicles is undeniable both in and outside of China when comparing performance/luxury/tech features. I wish Chinese vehicles could be imported into the US with a reasonable import tax so our lazy legacy vendors would have to compete.
@@pentoo988no. That only exist in your head. Most affluent Chinese don't like the government, but they detest arrogant uncompetitive products even more.
@@pentoo988 There is no "Chinese Delete America (and all foreign companies)" -- you are getting confused with the US trying to ban everything Chinese. There are US companies like Walmart, Starbucks, McDonalds, everywhere.
@@pentoo988 - You say ‘lazy legacy vendors’, I think it’s more like incompetent legacy auto vendors, these yesteryear ‘Tesla Killers’ are getting killed by Tesla in the EV space and ICE is dying.
The main reason is of course Porsche's ridiculous high price. They only need to ask themselves one question: "Do we want to sell vehicle/sports cars to 35% of the upper/middle class buyers or just 7% of the lower elite buyers.? Porsche had chosen the wrong crowd over the last 20 years.....hence paying the price for the mistake. That is another reason why the most successful car makers are the ones that sell more mid-priced to high end cars rather than those just sell Out of reach high end cars...just ask Ferrari or Lambo makers.
It’s no longer enough to put some stitching on the headrest and call it a day… I just got back from a 460 mile road trip in my 2022 Tesla Model Y. Another flawless experience. Total charging cost: $35 CAD.
It’s no longer enough to just build a normal electric car. Tesla is plummeting in sales like no other. At least Porsche has something to offer. At the current used prices of a Porsche you gotta be an idiot to rather pick a Tesla. Except you want poor charging speed, a shitty suspension and overall shitty quality.
I blame the nosedive in quality of Porsche interiors, it is all LCD screens and creaky, cheap-feeling haptic panels made from piano-black. Those Porsche interiors are no better than much cheaper Chinese alternatives.
"the absolute limit" is actually 140, over that a driver in a real problem. But more important there are plenty of tricky driving on the roads and also all the speed cameras are marked on the online map by the law etc. So driving like on autobahn is not an option, but aggressive driving on packed and/or mountain roads it is.
Most countries have speed limits. That doesn’t mean everyone follows them exactly every second they are driving. I’ve never heard of anyone from any country claim that everyone strictly follows the speed limits at all times. Plus the kind of people that can afford luxury performance cars can afford to pay off the law or bribe themselves out of legal infractions.
Top speed isn’t what EVs are about - if they go really fast range suffers badly. But really quick acceleration- getting to the speed limit in only a few seconds - perfectly legal and actually has bigger impact on journey times than you might think
Yes, this is a special strategy by Chinese Automakers to get into European/North American markets, via the "back door". Buying up "old" legacy Car Companies and initially continuing with ICE engines before moving directly to BEV's (Battery Electric) or sometimes their NEV (New Energy Vehicles) ie Hybrids. Those Chinese Companies now own (and have for between 10-15 years) Volvo, Polestar, (Owned by Geely), MG, (owned by SAIC) Lotus and others. They tend to retain the "old HQ's" in the Country of origin eg England, Sweden but often the cars are designed and built in China with enough local input to make it seem like England and Sweden etc. YEs, sometimes they also have to assemble the cars in the original Country. All this results in people thinking they are buying English or Sweden cars! However, what most people don't know, is that Chinese Car Companies and individual large Chinese investors, also now own 19% of Daimler (Mercedes). I'm both an EV Analysist and Fund Manager and we've been watching the Chinese NEV/BEV market for 20 years now. It's very, very, interesting. When the Chinese Government decided to heavily assist the NEV/BEV market, they took a long-term view. At its peak there were more than 400 NEV Car Companies. When the Chinese Government stopped their direct subsidy support at end of 2022, allowing market forces to do the survive or die dance, it was down to approx 91 Companies and further rationialisation will force it down to around 25-30. But all these are battle hardened Companies just frothing at the bit to get into markets outside China. They must do so, or die! So they will be VERY aggressive.
Taycan resale value is in the dumpster. They are forcing people to buy Taycans to qualify to buy premium models. They are sitting in inventory all over the place.
The administration's incompetence and corruption are becoming increasingly absurd. I feel horrible for people with disabilities who aren't getting the support they require. Thank you Leah Foster Alderman. Imagine investing $1.5k and receiving $6.5k in four days.
Same problem with every legacy auto maker. They put off making EVs, thinking "we'll just start making them when the sales take off." "We known how to make cars. EVs are just more of the same." So they tried to skip the learning curve. All of these companies *could* have been making a few thousand EVs per year for the last decade, and *learning* how to make good EVs. But no. "We already know how to make cars. It's all about Brand Name and Advertising sizzle."
Exactly, what is so strange is, that this was clear shortly after Tesla presented the Model S, so over 12 years. I think the problem is aways the same with disruption and there also was a huge echo chamber of anti Tesla FUD which obfuscated the minds. I would not wonder if the anti FUD of these incumbent companies is a crucial part of the picture why they fail. China was much more intelligent they saw the potential and how exceptional Tesla and Elon Musk were and are.
implying that Porsche is any better? Hmm...what about those Boxsters and Caymans that had oval cylinders, and a litany of other problems that made them just about worthless? The 911s with the IMS bearings that all fail. The list goes on an on. Porsche builds nice-driving cars, but they have had plenty of serious issues. By comparison, the Taycan is actually not that bad.
In no way true that it is shared with VW. May be only with the audi 800volts archtecture car....the only one with comparable battery. All other VW ,skoda and audi still have 400volts archtecture. Also Porsche is more than twice the price of a comparable hyundai or Kia. (including genesis)
That is the best combo. On a weekday, you want to relax going to work and doing about things, so Tesla is perfect for it. Besides, it is cheap to run. However, during the weekend, you WANT to drive a car and a gas Porsche is the perfect machine. Just sitting in it with the engine on gives a different emotion and satisfaction. {Then the wife prefers the Tesla but the kids loved the Porsche...} And Oh, track days!. Forget EVs. you want to do 10 full hot laps at the edge.....yeah!.
In any country with speed limits around 130km/h, will top end cars be defined by battery range, charging speed, comfort and software experience for the driver?
A friend at work has a Taycan … he’s swapping it for a Tesla. *Why?* He actually got stuck at a non-working third party charger the morning of Christmas day. The Tesla supercharger network is so much better !
If that's the only reason, that seems rather extreme. And I'm a patient TSLA long starting in 2016. Yes, they're better, but Tesla chargers are getting more common, getting built for other car brands, and it's not like competing brands of chargers are doing nothing, so I think that lead will narrow meaningfully over time, re having a reasonable number of reliable chargers around to charge BEV's over time.
@@rogergeyer9851 In Europe very few Tesla superchargers can be used by non-Tesla. In Portugal as an example not one Supercharger is open to non-Tesla ! Also non -Tesla (if they can use the supercharger) pay 30% more ! 😂
As some of you pointed out … yep, that perhaps was badly worded. It was the final straw, not the only reason ! He complained about (i) The car has to go back to the dealer for a software update , which takes 26 hours ! (ii) pitiful efficiency
German brand need to do what Jim Farley is going to try do Jim Farley's BRUTALLY Honest Interview About EVs And The State Of The Industry Dave Takes It On 9.28K
Yeah Jim gets it. Brutally honest about not only EVs, but the challenge that Ford is faced with, understands the volatility of that market, and has taken steps with what seems a rational plan to build competitive EVs that can make a profit. The current market in the US is regional and Jim understands this. It will shift gradually to a wider market there as people learn more about the benefits of EV. Wish other legacy auto makers would approach this problem with Jim’s honesty and humility.
@@YippydogThe new Fraud Crappie is not exactly Blue Oval's finest recent hour in satisfying automotive badge emotion. But perhaps this rebadged German machine addresses the need to rationalise the humiliating plethora of coolant hoses Sandy Monroe's Ford disection revealed a while back. Fords are surely vehicles you expect to be simple and easily repairable by blue collar guys and the thought of trying to run a ten year old Ford EV on a shoestring is scary, without even getting to the main battery. Hopefully Ford's 12V battery will be generic, compared to the apparently 3,000 quid Porsche 12 Volt replacement battery scam.
I traded in my cayenne for a model s, not touching a porsche ever again. 4year warranty expired and car started breaking down. I should've listened to everyone that told me not to buy a german car.
Buy a German car, just not one from this century. My last Mercedes, an '04 W203 was my last German car. Our family drove nothing but German cars until about 20 years ago.
I had 2 Porsche's and sold both of them back in 2018 and it was a pain to sell them. People were lowballing and the dealerships trade in price was abysmal. I got a Subaru Crosstrek due to taking the financial hit on a Boxter S and a Cayenne S. I was optimistically hoping to buy the $35,000 Model 3 but that didn't materialize. Last month was the last for my PCA membership as I got tired of Porsche's emission scandal and handling of the Taycan's battery issue. I had great memories autocrossing both Porsche's but the people that bought them wanted the prestige of owning one.
@@davidbeppler3032 They are as true as horrible resale value and not selling of all EV vehicles (not just Porsche) same story happens with Mercedes EVs and Tesla.
The reason why I drive a porsche taycan is due it‘s driving dynamics and its build material. It also looks beautiful. We can’t debate about taste. If you can’t afford it, just don’t buy one. Though, I agree that they’re expensive and not twice as good as other. I like your channel, but you are starting to confuse things. Have you ever driven one?
I do not know what you have been taking but at least in the last 5 years Porche stock has not dropped 59%. The worst high to low is same as Tesla's, about 40%.
Porche stock is at its highest already or the ceiling. It doesn't have room to grow. If that basic you don't even know or acknowledge, then what you said is rubbish.
The stock price in October 2007 was £155.37, today it's £42.76. If you factor inflation into those figures, you can add another 20% to that drop in value. Look it up.
A premium Porsche is not a vehicle purchase as much as it’s a statement that one can afford to pay over the odds. Perhaps wealthy Chinese now prefer value over vanity. This is cyclical, ostentatious spending comes back.
The “legacy” part is only valididated by car making countries who based their culture around them. The danger for Porsche is, there’s nothing special about them except a flat six engine. As an EV, it’s just a badge.
I'm all for EV's and hope my next car is one,but I also value the truth so can you tell me where these Porsche figures come from as when I checked their share price I could not see any sign of a collapse ,they are down 10% on year on year but that is not a collapse
You don't come to this channel for "facts". It's here for entertainment purposes and to pump up the value of Tesla stock, only. Sam doesn't cross reference or fact check anything.
Was in China a few weeks ago. Honestly the Chinese cars look a lot better than the German cars imo and definitely have better tech. You can’t just rely on your brand image forever, ask Maserati.
There's a lot more regulation of cars in the west than China. It's unlikely that their tech would be street legal in the EU or US. Or their safety, or quality of construction. People forget that you get what you pay for. And China's business culture is extremely cutthroat box checking. They also forget that China is substantially subsidizing their domestic EV market.
The first 3 years Porsche quietly recalled half the Taycans they built to put new batteries in them when GM had all those Bolts catching fire. Porsche paid millions to stay out of the news.
1) sounds like you never were directly affected by a recall defect much less a life threatening issue 2) when companies want to deny there is a flaw and it rakes a year and more to get a fix and you have to pay out of pocket to fix it 3) it sucks to be without your vehicle while they fix it as many dealers no longer provide courtesy vehicles, plus what a hassle and waste of personal time 4) when multiple major recalls happen to the same vehicle your resale value will go down even after it is remedied, especially on high end cars
@@pentoo988 1. i work in a fleet shop and we deal with thousands of recalls and i've had some personally as well 2. most recalls are booked and fixed at the dealer within weeks, never have i heard of anyone paying out of pocket 3. yes it can be a hassle. most offer courtesy valet service and if more than your daily work shift they will offer a vehicle for overnight if they need it longer. 4. never heard of recalls effecting resale. only time it effects resale is if you don't get the recals done. When i buy a car i ask the owner if they registered their car with the brand and had the recalls done... most don't. I tell them its free fixes why not register?
@@stopthefomo Ioniq 5N range 240 miles at best. Macan EV, well over 300 miles, and build quality superior too. Sheer breakneck speed in a straight line is nothing special, most EVs are fast enough. Who is going to race with others in our speed limited roads? Driving dynamics, ride and handling, the feel and precision of the steering wheel, nimbleness in corners, NVH control (noise and vibration levels), interior and exterior quality are all pieces that make up a good car.
My issue with this video is that the narrator is conveniently leaving out that souces cited state that it’s LUXURY EV sales that are falling. The top end. It’s different at that end of the market.
Just drop the government incentives and tax EVs as much as ICE cars, and let's just see how they really do!! All this BS about running costs is ridiculous.
Totally agree, you should go visit China if you can. Glad you had the chance, with everything going on, I was there back in the late 2010's, and watched in envy as silent electric buses zoomed by, absent were the heaps of smoke and pollution which accompanies the dirty Diesel buses of the Toronto transmit commission.
Sales of vehicles of any class are going to ebb and flow - you will have increases and decreases period to period. Claiming a crash after a one period drop is not necessarily a trend. We could be entering a period where auto sales might be lower than last year. Sales can trend up next year. The key is if the central companies are profitable at whatever level.
You don't understand this channel. If sales crash at Tesla over a quarter, it's not a trend. If they fall over two quarters, it's not a trend. If Toyota sells one less car today than they did yesterday, it's a trend and they're going out of business.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 - I get that - I think it depends on which market you are looking at. If Porsche sales fall in the EV market - that does not mean they are doing poorly in the ICE market. Same for all legacy OEM. To be brutally frank - the EV and ICE market is going to coexist. I have a Tesla but also have two other ICE cars. The Tesla is perfect for the use case of commuter, mid range travel and errand running car. It’s actually a great and well built car. But so is my wife’s Acura MDX and our Ford Explorer. The EV market metrics are important mostly for pure EV companies. To determine health of a company and the market you still have to evaluate them in isolation.
@@RagnarinVa EV's and ICE vehicles will co-exist for the foreseeable future for many reasons. And I agree, you do have to look at EV specific manufacturers and Legacy manufacturers in isolation.
People seem to think Porsche is just about the brand. It's not. They have the best suspension in the business for electric cars, bar none. Now whether that is worth the extra price to potential buyers? Seemingly not. That said, although the Taycan has some problems, it's overall a fantastic car, especially if you buy it used. And it's utterly beautiful, IMHO. Tesla for sure is much cheaper and has better driver assistants, no question about that. I prefer the Taycan, though. It looks better, drivers better around corners, has a proper instrument panel, indicator and wiper stalkers, and a HUD. None of which I can get in the Tesla, even for extra cost.
In Germany, almost no car dealers accept a Taycan as trade-in and there were rumors that Porsche had to recycle 3'000 Taycans from leasing returns, because they couldn't be sold at a reasonable price. The market for luxury EV's is too small.
Germany need to think about putting high tariffs on Chinese EVs... If Germany put high tariffs on Chinese EVs their German cars in China will get hurt. Germany needs China to buy their cars. China buy more cars from EU than US so EU should not listen to US regarding putting high tariffs on Chinese EVs
Porsche is still the best brand an the best cars. of course they are expensive. As a successful businessman or woman, you don't want a Chinese brand. that's for poor people. PORSCHE IS STILL A DREAM
Loved Porsches in the 80’s -90’s, they were counter culture, now according to the 30 somethings, you would think they are the norm. The truth is , they are very expensive to operate and no longer that fast.
The Chinese customer is the canary in the coal mine for legacy car companies, the German car industry needs to be paying attention to what is happening, German vehicles aren't seen as a luxury anymore and their price point isn't helping
Porsch are by far the best build car I have ever had. On a whole other level than Tesla or any Chinese brand. So is the driving. But they definitely have things to work on, like one pedal driving, android auto (google maps) in the driver display, things they could probably do with just software updates.
Europe has had a grip on so called luxury and technical superiority but that’s just not the case anymore. The world 🌍 has changed and reality is happening before ourselves. I travel, so see and feel this phenomenon, no wander I am buying alternative stuff.
Well one thing you said isn't true. Tere are still subsidies for EVs in Germany. 1) no vehicle tax (few hundred bucks per year) 2) 0.25 % taxable benefit of list price for EVs instead of 1 % for ICEs (only relevant for company car drivers, but most new cars sold are such company cars)
Have driven German cars for 35+ years now and noticed how (especially during the Engela Merkel era), the Germans became overly obsessed with the Chinese market. They bent over backwards, especially with some of the cartoonish design elements (BMW M3/M4) to appeal specifically to that sector of the Asian market. They forged ahead regardless of misgivings by consumers in Europe and the US. Regarding Porsche’s woes and the Chinese market opting for local brands, like anything else in China, in spite of the exterior bling, everything else under the covers is absolute cheap shiite.
UChicago Prof. Shirley Meng’s Laboratory for Energy Storage and Conversion creates world’s first anode-free sodium solid-state battery - a breakthrough in inexpensive, clean, fast-charging batteries. LESC believes the research brings forward the reality of inexpensive, fast-charging, high-capacity batteries for electric vehicles and grid storage. To create a sodium battery with the energy density of a lithium battery, the team needed to invent a new sodium battery architecture. Anode-free batteries store ions on an electrochemical deposition of alkali metal directly on the current collector. This approach enables higher cell voltage, lower cell cost, and increased energy density, but comes with challenges.
Good to hear! Has the laboratory produced a sample battery that can pass the nail-puncture test, not only when charged, but also discharged - at which point the active pure lithium or sodium metal would be deposited on the negative collector and therefore most vulnerable to a fire? A reference would be great!
@@AllDogsAreGoodDogs "Challenges" means that everything else on the battery got worse; volume, charge/discharge speed, lifespan etc. Batteries are always going to have these challenges, the problem for a battery being implemented in a mobile environment, it needs everything overcome. They have completely screwed up the introduction of electric cars. Elon Musk maybe a complete idiot. Tesla has set the standard of charging batteries to refuel; Battery swapping takes the need for charge rate being factored into batteries, eliminates charge times and solves a great many problems not just in the car but also at the charging station which is never going to be able to do fast charging of 15 minutes on mass. You would have thought that he had atleast worked out with the rest of the industry to use only one plug, instead he built his own network just for Tesla to give him a competitive advantage. The entire automotive industry is built around the legacy car manufacturers, Tesla produces and ships the cars. How much support is there out there for your Tesla? I don't know. It is actually beneficial for Tesla for the other companies to be succeeding at electric. This can still be a flop or a successful nightmare. NEO went with the battery swapping, it's no big deal to add the plug. I think devising a good standard and system for battery swapping is going to be far better for EV's, especially their resale value.
@@alexandermelbaus2351The battery cassette exchange system could be a robotic drive through experience taking 2 minutes and a buffer stock of batteries could allow smoothing of grid demands from off peak charging and allow automatic preparation for high demand holiday weekends. But it needs international cooperation on standardising the technology and it doesn't exactly sound cost effective. Even though battery swapping was apparently a feature in US EV taxi fleets in the early 1900s.
Porsche does not have state of art software to compete with Tesla and the Chinese brands. They are going to face an uphill battle and most likely they will have to look for a third party like Huawei, Nvidia and other companies specializing in making autonomous software.
@@G82Watts Please read. Didn't I say Chinese brands also. Regarding software, German brands have better software than Japanese brands, but their software is still inferior to Chinese. That's why German brands are hiring Chinese AI companies to take care of their software.
Love your commentary. EV's will win 100% in the long run, as the Circular Sustainable economy takes hold. No point in fighting the inevitable superior technologies. Do you want a horse to go into town 30 kms away, or drive a carbon free, footprintless, self driving car, costing near nothing for fuel. Oh dear, this future is again, inevitable.
The depreciation of the Taycan is astronomic compared to EVs, and Porsche owners are not used to accepting this sort of loss. Porsche and all other premium sports brands have a serious problem, because a large part of the appeal is performance, and you can get that much more cheaply and in a more practical package with something like the Tesla Plaid. Sure, there's the luxury element and brand perception, but that's relying on the ICE legacy which is coming to a close. If they're not careful, they're going to go the same way as companies that made Steam powered vehicles. Either they get it right and survive or they don't. It's a stark reality check for Porsche.
Porsche Taycan Sales in America over time: 2019: 130 2020: 4,404 2021: 8,747 2022: 7,272 2023:7,716 2024 sales on track to match 2023... so I don't see a crash guys... 🤔
He was talking about China, where a huge percentage of Porsche sales are. Also, Porsche estimated far higher sales. The crash is due to missed expectations, which is affecting their long term plans. They were tooling to become 100% EV. VW/Audi/Porsche expected EV sales to overtake ice by 2030. That doesn't appear to be the case by a large margin, so their strategy is all shot. This is billions of dollars in tooling, training, supply contracts, designs, and a crisis of confidence in management to have been so dismally wrong.
He’s right about people who don’t want facts regarding various beliefs in religions. It is dangerous, but regarding one’s fate after death, people like a dreamy view to keep upbeat as they can’t avoid it. ❤
Let me say the truth. They deluded their own brand with models like the Macan. They need to go down on the sales and make it premium again. Which means, very expensive and very high quality.
It's very possible that Porsche thought they could get away doing what GM does - Engineer-out reliability and quality. In America, GM's Republican Management knowingly engineers-out quality at every point from materials selected, to the actual designs, to the manufacturing process. This is no easy feat, as they must design-in failure immediately after warranty expiration. Porsche probably doesn't such engineering prowess so readily available. With time, they too can succeed.
Nostrodamus here. I foresee several factors that will hit internal-combustion engine (ICE) automobiles simultaneously, triggering a black swan event: Tightening of government restrictions on polluting ICEs in urban areas. Collapse of Hydrogen-powered vehicles humiliates the car companies and their champions, undermining their efforts to manage the transition. Electric vehicle (EV) cost-of-ownership continues downward, EV range up. EV charging subsidised by companies, etc.. becomes commonplace. Home solar panels charging EVs further reduce running costs. A lot of chatter about extraordinary low cost-of-ownership. Media highlights the measurable and notable reduction in noise and other pollution, and corresponding quality-of-life improvements as EVs propagate. Public enthusiasm for EVs that was rising, accelerates. More political talk about ending of petrol/gas ICEs as credibility of industry is close to zero. Bottom falls out of the new ICE market. New ICEs heavily discounted and sold at a loss. Bottom falls out of the secondhand market. Used ICEs changing hands for dozens of dollars. Petrol/gas stations going out of business. With the collapse of the ICE market, talk turns to: “How to reclaim and recycle all those obsolete ICEs?” and “What to do with all those old gas stations? … old oil tankers? … old refineries? etc…” Auto companies scrambling to retool for solely-EV production as demand rockets. Company executives change their tune about EVs, and beg for government handouts to manage the transition. Car industry shake-up with many failing to make the adjustment. Major oil/petroleum companies shake-up as demand plummets. Huge promotion and propaganda blitz to rescue the situation for ICEs fails spectacularly. Massive culture wars around EVs, especially in US. Lots of flag waving and posturing by paid-for politicians (think of the anti-Japan sentiment in the 80s). The public, unmoved, embrace EVs wholeheartedly. Politicians and industry team up to pick through the wreckage of their major flag-bearing industrial companies (GM, Ford, Fiat, Renault, Toyota, Honda etc.). Turmoil in Middle East and other oil producing regions (Russia, Nigeria, Venezuela, Angola, Canada etc.) as the cash dries up spectacularly and breaks their economies, uproots their oligarchies, and upends the rampant cronyism. Shock waves crash through a major global religion as central influence wanes. Residual demand for ICEs amongst a few hold-outs in the Middle East, Russia, Africa, and India, for example. Victorious Chinese EV manufacturers help accelerate the transition in developing economies. I foresee that these events will accelerate in the next two years and will take about five years to play out. (By now, you’ve realised that I’m no Notradamus - It’s true, anyone can read the writing on the wall.)
The irony is that history is repeating itself in that the legacy automakers are failing for the same reasons that the EV automakers failed in the 1920's. They have failed to understand the emerging technology and they dont have the funds available to invest fully in it while keeping their backbone ICE production profitable. Over the next 10 years we are going to see many of the legacy brands disappear, brands like GM, Nissan and Mitsubishi. Even Toyota will struggle thanks to their foray into hydrogen. It is the Betamax of the transport industry.
Im not paying $150K for a 911 thats not a Turbo...im sorry these Porsche people are nuts! A basic 911 can get to $150K...You want C4S with some options...thats $180K...Ill take a C8, dont love it...but its half the price.
