Post-truth politics have “DOOMED” the UK | Armando Iannucci | the New Statesman 

I’m not a big fan of Frankie Boyle and his attitudes but I think he got it right with “Bankers are thieves. You are not living through a depression, you are living through a robbery”. That is the bottom line - not just bankers but all the 2% of the richest.

The social contract was broken years ago! Is it just starting to impact on the luvvies now, because they have to pay higher prices on their fuel bills?

Lying by politicians must be punished severely and instantly . If you ignore this then nothing has any value and corruption quickly follows.

The thing about social contract breakdown is right. In 2001 I quit heroin and went to work in recovery services. I worked in Leeds until 2007 and decided to work in different regions. I was paid £24.5 for doing group work and 1 to 1 case management. So in 2022 I returned to Leeds doing some temp work. My colleagues where still being paid 24 to 25k after 15 years. I actually applied for a post and couldn't get more than 25k with 20 years experience so turned the job down. These are workers doing difficult jobs with challenging high needs people and so they are doing what they should without a pay rise. It's absolutely disgusting. And before anyone says they could go work for someone else the new services are commissioned as monopolises so you can't choose anything else is you want to work with addicts. The overdose death rate has tripled as well which shows the services are subpar.

LIES HAVE BEEN THE NEW TRUTH FOR DECADES.

This guy has got a nerve. Our institutions and MPs tried to break the social construct by dedicating years to preventing the outcome of the referendum. He supported such actions.

Britian is hurtling towards failed state status

I think a lot of our problems come from the MSM and the political class. That have lost the plot.

"If you have to, take a screenshot and then post a brand new post." Most helpful point presented. Thank you.

4 people with the same opinions agree on everything for 30 minutes! ...

Can I just point out that the Nick Robinson incident in the Scottish 2014 referendum was - Robinson asked Alex Salmond at a press conference about currency. Salmond answered. Robinson repeated the question I think twice more, and Salmond answered each time, and more fully. Later on BBC news Robinson presented the exchange edited to remove what Salmond said, and commented "he didn't answer". Other news outlets were there, and by the time Robinson's report went out the full exchange was available on RU-vid, so it was absolutely obvious that Robinson had flat out lied. Is it any wonder that people were seriously angry?

Don't forget the BBC and Project Fear !

The "thing that people care about" is what they are told to care about. The DM tell people to care about immigrants "invading", so people care about it.

This is almost as funny as The Thick of It! Thanks as ever to Anoosh and Armando, and to your guests Mae Dobbs and James Ball. Great - dare I say "Adult" - discussion. Has quickly become one of my favourite things on RU-vid. Thank you.

I found the initial conceit of the equivalence between the right and left wing interesting. There seems to me to be a huge difference between them, and the right comes out looking a great deal worse in almost every metric from telling the truth/lies, aggression, violence both verbal and physical, danger to society and authoritarianism. Not even close. Secondly, the idea that you can talk about this stuff and reduce ideas of conspiracies as ridiculous despite having a situation where 1. ALL MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS OWNED BY BILLIONAIRES, who have their own interests which is paramount. 2. It is a fact that Billionaires and the Koch's in particular, have clearly been infiltrating their ideas and ideals into the Republican party since the early 80's after they lost the election. 3. Lobbying from all of these sources has changed politics and the lives of the poor majority forever. The only answer is to break down the current system because it is obviously rigged and we're being coaxed into believing MMS is still neutral and politicians aren't in the pockets of any corporation or monied entity.

Great contributors. The theme of being perceived as sincere for speaking one's belief when the belief is nonsense is insidious and worrying.

But it's not just social media. A person was arrested in the United Kingdom for holding up a sign saying 'Not my king'. It seems that it really boils down to a poor sense of judgment.

Leaders should be boring. We only notice things when they are going wrong which is a reason why social media is so divisive. A good leader just does their job without fuss, doesn't engage people's emotions for their own or parties ends, recognises the good things and ideas the opposition does and has and keeps out of everyone's way.

The word post truth assumes that there was a time when politicians and journalists were honest. Now, the blame is put on the people who don’t know what to believe so piece together bits they can to try and understand the mess that the leaders are making. If out situation is not nefarious, how bad are our politicians and journalists?

This really took off after 2008 - the banking crisis and ensuing sovereign debt crisis (and the way none of the people behind it face justice and how everyone else ended up paying for it. ). The UK and US also do politics with two main parties and fewer other views to moderate the debate and likewise neither of them have a coherent politic story anymore. Those societies also privilege the individual and have idealised that for the past 40 years. Together with that there's postmodernism and the way the Internet embedded and built on its logic. All those factors come together in the way people seem to 'create' their own truth these days.

"Biden is an authentic character" These people are so naive 🙄

These people are sick!

In the "good old days" the fact free politics was delivered by the church and various warlords.

I love this series, well anything with Armando is brilliant. Plus now James Ball - what a great run. Thanks.

Love the bias. You have no idea how you created a monster. This is on the posho, condescending left very well represented here

Various popular culture references apply here: #1 a lie will get round the world before the truth has got it's boots on. (Terry pratchett) #2 "the more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers" (star wars: Leia about the Empire) #3 pratchett again: the vimes boots theory of economics. This applies to healthy food, good insulation, and the persistence of wealth inequality. It's worrying that collectively we can't seem to grasp these truths, but we'll embrace "get brexit done" and "build back better" as articles of blind faith.

The social media problem is fixed by one simple change. Legally reclassify the companies as publishers and not as media companies. No heavy handed regulation is required like that blue haired woman called for.

Teaching my teens how to survive social media is very insightful. We all want to be part of something, the companies have algorithms designed to enrage us, not being on social media makes you feel like you arent part of modern life, but it real helps you get back to old school robust mental health.

In the current journalists do not challenge politicians often replying to different questions or avoiding the issue or straight out lying. A lot of responsibility lies with quality journalists.

Sadly there is more money to be made of anger then joy, hate then love, war then peace.

Yes booing journalists is a uniquely stupid way to erode/destroy accountability in politics. Well done, everyone.

Also, does the breakdown of the social contract also apply to the police, who refuse to help ordinary people (and indeed threaten them with arrest) held up by Just Stop Oil protesters, and instead facilitate the protests?

The term ‘Post-Truth’ presupposes access to ‘the truth’ but outside the realms of purely formal enquiry there are no such things as ‘facts’. ‘Truth’ about reality is not ‘given’ but is rather dependant on interpretation. As Kant almost said ‘perceivers without concepts are blind’.

I don't think it helps that when someone truly authentic comes along the ENTIRETY of the system clicks in to crush him. The only conspiracies of note worth considering are Our policy class on all sides are truly, truly bad quality and our representatives are NOT calling the shots

Mae Dobbs on Biden: “A good person and a family man” True, like her hair is blue.

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" __ Abraham Lincoln

It is somewhat perverse that the desire for authenticity has led to the most staggeringly inauthentic characters (Trump, Johnson etc). People say they don't want to be lied to, but then they trip over themselves to support some of the most staggering liars in the world.

The solution to problems among free speech is more free speech

The big problem I have as an older voter is that having lost all trust in the present Tory government to deliver Brexit, Save the NHS, control rising inflation or even protect our own borders from ever increasing streams of illegal immigration, while also having even less trust in the alternative political party on offer, what do I and possibly millions of other disillusioned voters turn?

Hence the phrase "the right thing to do," coined I think by Boris means "what I think should be done."

The simple fact is that there is enough money to go around, but the rich have figured out the best ways to move around any effective opposition... ordinary people have lost whatever power they used to have. And importantly, *nobody has any idea what to do next* .

Love is the answer

Best episode so far👍🏻

Love this podcast, thank you Anoosh and Armando. There needs to be some global legislation over social media. We need to collude with other western countries, perhaps form a coalition with local democracies. Create a union of Europe perhaps to give power to truth

Really enjoyed this discussion. Great subject.

You said that teachers are hard pressed, which is true, so you did not want to push more work onto them… However, I think that there are some things not currently being taught that absolutely SHOULD be taught. Probably number one of these is skepticism and critical thinking. This is fundamental to science but should be more widely expressed and applied in everyday life. The motto of the Royal Society is “Nullius in verba”, loosely translated as “Take nobody’s word for it.” Scientists are trained to look for flaws in each others work, and writings. We should all look for the flaws - and biases - in what we read, see, and hear every day. All media outlets seem to have strong party biases - even the hallowed BBC, with a Tory-appointed, Tory-supporting DG, news reporters, and editors. Sadly, no politician tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. At the very least, they highlight and exaggerate their and their party’s successes and achievements, while minimising or ignoring the failures. They are, after all, sales men and women in order to get into power.

Tbe social contract has been dead for 40 years. What we're living in now is the aftermath.

An interesting conversation, but but I think what was missing was one of the underlining problems in modern politics and social platforms; activists have a free reign to do whatever on social media. The most extreme or minor political group now have an equal standing with the most established, measured or mainstream groups. Inevitably it goes to the extremes. Also, as James Ball demonstrated, it is all IN YOUR FACE. "I'm gay" he announces proudly, as if it were important to the conversation or to anyone in particular...it is not, but it now becomes part of the political discourse and helps to drive the divisive "whose side are you on?" political debate that we live in now.

Clown Island. Formally The United Kingdom.

What about Cambridge analytica? Is that a conspiracy theory?

I think what is very wrong in British social-politics live is an education. Regulating social media companies may help but there will be always argument what is a truth and what is a lie. There will be always people that even in the biggest lie you can find a little of truth. Because everything is grey and there is no white or black I think we should focus on educating people even more how to read news and how to verify or make up they own minds. I am thinking here about education system in Britain which under conservative government for so many years is heavily underfunded. They way to go is Scandinavian approach but currently it is impossible to implement because conservatives have their own private education system and they are happy. The remaining population is not even aware what they are missing...

How refreshing to hear intelligent, openminded conversation, on such an important topic. In place of the usual scripted soundbite, one-track, kneejerk, simplistic, self-promoting narcisist, partisan, tribal or low-grade variety so prevalent whether in the MSM or on social media. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about some of the comments below.

Good discussion. James seems to undermine the possibility of any conspiracy theories actually being true - which may be a conspiracy in itself.

The manner in which the four are interracting, and even the manner in which they physically present themselves (particularly the two guests), speaks volumes.

If Biden is so pure what was on the laptop?

Like looking for Occam's Razor through an Overton Window.

Political argument has now turned into just expressing opinion based on personal mindset and agenda. Debate uses little or no facts any more, it's quite alarming.

The thing is there are few truths. Most of human society depend on constructs, which require only consensus. In the natural world, science can find likely truth, but through advances often refine or revise those truths. So post-truth is just an acknowledgement of our reality as composed of social facts, which are being contested by offering alternative interpretations. But politics, which concerns public issues has relied on economics which falsely pretends it is a science. So to some, any deviation from standard economics is proof of illiteracy, while others want to amend or retire economic theory entirely. It is absurdly epistemic mess, where one side sees their rivals as idiots, and the other side sees their rivals as fascists.

This reminds me of the sickness of “if I say I’m not crazy” . It’s a horrible time that I can’t see us leaving for a decade

Ironic having the new statesman doing this video…

Very important points, both of them... Social media amplifies the polarization for profit... And the polarization's _true_ source is the broader political currents that have managed to reverse the post-WWII engines of social mobility and equality. My father bought many new new cars - and later a house - with extra cash he managed to save from his job as a _church organist._ I'm a computer programmer and data engineer... and I've never owned new car. And certainly not a ground-level detachaed house. I have friends who are bank executives. And even they don't dare dream of owning a ground-level house in their own city. This is not irony or sarcasm. Something has gone (generationally) very wrong. And it's not surprising that people target the more superficial ways that society has changed. And get seduced by nationalist ideologies. Because globalization _is_ the source of the problem. But not because it brings us people who look diffierent from us. But rather because it offshores the ways that ordinary people used to prosper. And then tells them they're stupid for having not chosen their parents more carefully. For not having been among the few in the capitalist class. How stupid of us!

Loved the discussion. I am right of centre politically on most things but I do think that we are better when we are willing to discuss issues without ignoring the facts. I am also an Nuclear Engineer and facts are important! You can not eat garlic and safely take that spent nuclear fuel home with you, no matter what anybody says!

Once upon a time, long, long ago, to call a politician a "populist" was an insult. It essentially meant that instead of leading from a well thought out, detailed vision for a future, you just parroted what your supporters said you should do. The original idea of a representative democracy was that you elected someone to be the "father" of the country because you felt that he/she had the right qualities of experience and vision to be a leader. Now everyone wants to elect a poplist because "they will do what the populace want". What happened to doing what the populace need, not what they want today for no good reason at all other than it was something that grabbed their unsophisticated easily distracted attention. Mind you representative democracy does break down when you insist on thinking that the Tories can fill this role.

It would have been interesting for them to discuss the Labour Party and the AS allegations relating to this topic. Especially as the New Statesman played an instrumental part in warning voters of the ‘dangers’ of a Labour anti austerity government and therefore ensuring a Conservative win. Funny how since The Forde Report was published, we haven’t heard much of an update from NS about a subject they were obviously very passionate about in the past 🤔

Thank you so much for this wonderful open conversation, it was a breath of fresh air. Really enjoyed it but also very informative.

Trump has called for an Internet Bill of Rights. I hope that includes some laws about the algorithms that corral us into intellectual bubbles and keep us angry and divided.

This discussion reminds me of something Jon Stewart said in an interview. He was talking about how Hillary Clinton was obviously putting on her 'stump personality' or something to that effect, and he said that he found it heartening that this was the case, because the other side is "rendering their inauthenticity in real-time."

The Conservative election that preceded the Brexit vote was the consolidation of it - since then it's just become more visible. The electoral commission failed in their duty. The media were playing to agendas from other nation states including Russia and Israel - MI6 failed in its duty as did the Conservative party itself (as an organisation supposedly bound to democratic principle) through its inability to contain its more extreme factions. It's only 250 years since we overthrew the richest country in the world - India - not for ourselves, but on behalf of the British East India Company, a private cartel - which then because the richest entity in the world. I am guessing that the power structures remaining from that little incident are still in place and we're seeing them on the rise again.

In the UK we broke the link from place to culture / community in the 80s and 90s. Then we introduced social media and encouraged communities based on fully shared values and ostracism of different ones, i.e. bubbles without a way to bring the various bubbles into venn-like overlaps. If you wanted to design a way to cause fragmentation and deadlock... You'd be hard pressed to pick a better one than that: this is just the first time we've had the technology to do it. Of course, it's also the first time we've had the technology to get through a pandemic lockdown with relatively little loss of life and living standards (it's still been very bad!!) - it isn't the technology that drives that, but it's the core enabler. So for social media I fully agree: legislation. But for social contract? The bubble genie is out of the bottle. The link to place is smashed. In my view, we can't restore how things were, we need to redesign how our democracy works to be able to govern in the new reality rather than what has been happening which is that politicians have adapted to *exploit* the new reality to hang onto power. The checks and balances are for a world that no longer exists. I think we need to move away from first past the post to something more representational and we need to design in citizen assemblies to make sure both place issues and cross cutting "values" issues are properly discussed and policies taken on from that - including developing useful social media regulation policies. Although we shouldn't wait to get started on that element.

Great discussion thanks

The Hews are to blame.

While i wouldn't want it, it may be necessary that lying would result in more severe forms of punishment otherwise there is nothing holding the demagogues back it seems.

Germans actually find boring politicians reassuring, or at least have a high tolerance in this regard, as long as they are perceived as competent. Brandt, Schmidt and Schröder all had a bit of charisma in different ways, but the rest of the country's leaders have been sleeping pills.

I think Armando regrets the choice of interviewees.

Ivory towers make the plebs look so pointless!

Politicians need to start working for the people who support them and give them their power and stop selling that power that is entrusted to them to the highest bidder, period. People might start having a bit of real faith in them then.

The UK the cradle of democracy? In 1568 the United Dutch Provinces declared to be a Republic. And a Dutchman William III did sign your "Bill of Rights", partly because he knew how to work with a parliament. E.g. The Stadtholder William III needed approval and a large budget from the Staten Generaal for his invasion of England with 400 ships and 40,000 men, twice the size of the earlier Spanish Armada :) :).

A lot of things now seem to be on the account of people using the "post truth" idea to revert the order of things. Things are today the way they are because of things that happened before, not the opposite. So the "post truth" era was created by the era that preceded it. It is like those things about "life expectancy". Poorer and less "developed" countries today have a longer life expectancy than more developed and rich countries, and why ? People who are living today to their 80s, 90s, and even 100s, they are not leaving to those ages because the last 10 years, but because of the early 30 years of THEIR lives. My mother today is over 70, and she had a lot of medical problems before, which were resolved and she lives better today than many people in their 30s. She lives pretty much the same way she lived when she was herself 30. That is 40 years ago, 1980s. Today, almost everyone I know younger than me, in developed countries, which I am not from, have some type of condition, disease, syndrome, that requires strong and life changing medications. I take just BP medication, half a pill of the lowest dosage, and just because I had a problem earlier in my late 30s that caused it. And it was an accident and not lifestyle caused. What does that have to do with the video ? The World of today is the way it is because of people like CARL SAGAN, like RONALD REAGAN, like BILL GATES (the 80s Bill Gates), and many others, who started what would become a Weapon of Social Destruction when Internet weaponized their minds. The Stalins and Marxs would not get to the place they went if not by the people who used equally dumb reasoning and policy to fight the strawman they made of them. Marx's ideas are only strong because their critics propelled them by blaming them for things they were not involved, and pressing them as rebel fuel. Marx was ridiculed by Socialists and Communists of its time, and Carl Sagan is the man who started to substantiate the now famous assertion that the most famous a scientist is, the less serious they should be taken. Only Internet made him what he is now. The dumb truisms Sagan is propelled with are the flame that started things like Flat Earthers, Ancient Aliens, you name it. That still to this day. It is the critics of Trump that fuel his fame. It is the critics of Socialism that fuel it. It is the "truth tellers" who fuel fake news. It is like a medieval market scale: The heavier you go on one side, the heavier the other side needs to be. Moderation is not something people today want, because they were educated that moderation is wrong. YOu have to have a "saviour", a "hero", a "correct", a "good", and all must be absolute. So they go hard on "Putin" saying he is all that is wrong with the World, so those who like him must put out that those who oppose him are "all that is wrong with the World", and therefore, everyone just gets more radical, stronger, faster and bigger. It is the "MAD" of social media. And with this, there are only losers.

Blair lied about Iraq weapons of destruction. Nothing new.

The NS is no better with post truth. Banker bailouts and £££ printing has destroyed the value of £, our wages, driven asset prices - including homes - sky high so that ordinary people can no longer afford them. Once those ZIRP policies were in plkace, the working classes should have had non-stop propaganda telling them that if you buy an overpriced home, get a very long (over 15 year( fixed rate. Didn't happen and the social contract broke down looong ago Just as a political project promised some respite, NS was among those trashing it. Frankly, do one!

When did the 'social contract' die? more to the point did it ever exist beyond a theory?

Dear Armando, just FYI : someone is using comments to phish on Telegram as you (they say : “good comment - contact me directly” …watch out friends…

Great discussion

I know I'm doing something right when my RU-vid algorithm put this on my feed! It's really scary to think about what life will be like for our kids.

Explain Twitter files.

I also think that people are telling their truths, so yes, truth as a subjective commodity will survive. When a poster lies about the words of a politician, they're painting the politician in a way that demonstrates and justifies how the poster has been made to feel by that politician. So, there is truth apparent in the lie. It's arguable that the issue isn't truth, so much as it is self-awareness.

I think something that felt missing from the discussion was the question of power. Where are the levers of power are in social media? In any other system, be it government, a factory, a transport network, the players have the means to make or break the system. If we want democracy in those systems we can demand it through disobedience. It seems nearly impossible to imagine how that would work with modern social media. But we need to know what to demand. Increasingly the right have demands for how they want social media to work for them, whereas a truly left wing vision for social media is something I have never heard anyone speak of.

Can I underline some of what James Ball said (the only intellectually honest one on this panel): 1. “The fringe news sites are a symptom not the disease and the MSN should keep doing what it’s always done”. I 100% agree - when organisation’s like the BBC started campaigning on left wing issues rather than reporting news it lost its status as a trusted institution. 2. Paraphrasing - “it’s not just those on the right, it’s on the left and also in the centre. In many cases the centre are the most dangerous as they are convinced they’re the sensible ones.” For example many on this panel who talk about bias as a bad thing and then only talk about “evil parties in America (Ie the right), trump bad, Biden good etc. Are you really surprised that only people who agree with your political views listen to you?

Authenticity rather than Authority? Hmm. Hitler was sincere. (Yeah, already crossed the Godwin line).

My only criticism of this podcast. is it was too short! I would have loved to listen to a longer version, where the ideas were expanded.

Joe Biden a good person ? And it just flies past, conversation continues…

When your publication smeared Roger Scruton, was that an example of post-truth politics?

Talk about hypocrisy... equivalent to fauci saying "I am the science".

Meducation is prevalent

The means might change but the behaviour has always been the same. Mob mentality is hardwired into the human psyche and there is no good solution for that.

Labour deregulatory policy was clearly a big influence on the financial sectors exposure to the crisis and the way the hosts flippantly ignore this, while discussing fake news, is staggering.

Talk about disinformation, this video is full of it!

the further we are from an election the more confident jounalists are of their understanding of what isgoing on. then when the election happens......

Cambridge analytica. Brexit. It’s not conspiratorial if there is evidence pointing to what happened. Bannon-cummings, direct links.

After the META stage will we then have a final Krell tech phase to release our Id monsters (Forbidden Planet 1956)?