The thing with hifi gear... is that every component can influence and effect the sound in positive or negative ways. But after years of hearing others systems and going digital...a valve preamp is highly recommended
You also don't want the amp to be quiet and not adding hiss or hum; my new amp is dead quiet compared to the former one(s); no hiss anymore present in my house, except for the cat of course.
"It’s harder that I thought". This guy is a no bullshit; simplify; no pretending to be a guru; But know your thing - kind-of-man. Yes, its complicated. I get it. But still: Very nice, short introduction to and advice about preamps. Thanks.
@@stereoreviewx I am sucker for well defined transient bass with sharp leading edge, preamp I settled with Ayre K1xe , and backup preamp Threshold T3i with Teflon coupling capacitors Mode . Here you have it.
For anybody wanting to try a non-modifying preamp, there are so-called passive preamps, which essentially is just a volume knob. Pretty cheap about $150 for something like a Tisbury. Agree on valve/tube preamp. Just got a PrimaLuna EVO 300 pre, and it certainly gives more soundstage, and there are options for tube rolling :-). Currently waiting for a new power amp (Pass Labs XA-25).
Even a passive preamp is not non modifying if there are impedance matching problems. Those mismatches will modify the signal as it passes through. They need to be matched to the requirements of both the source and the output for best results.
The ideal pre-amp would either be, single source, it's electronics specifically tailored to that particular source, constructed within a high quality chassis, with a high quality volume control with no remote which would add extra, unwanted circuitry, or, an "open frame" design like a PC whereupon different specific source modules could be slotted into the rear of the chassis, again, electronically tailored to your specific sources:? Phono ( mm or MC), CD, Streamer, e.t.c. The drawbacks would be: cost and more specifically, viability. They'd more than likely either be custom made pieces or made by a high-end manufacturer. Both would be very expensive and not many have that kind of disposable income to shell out on a luxury hifi pre-amp. Good to see you back, Kelvin.👍👍👍
They say that the best preamp would ideally be single source and a volume control. Short, sweet and to the point. The best power amp would have a high current output to be able to drive a multitude of different loudspeakers. These, however are just the fundamentals: things like sound quality, build quality, amount of sources being utelised, tonality and musicality are equally to be considered. This is why there is such a variety of both pieces of equipment on offer.
Active preamps - valves or solid state - are a necessity if you live within 5 klicks of a radio transmitter. Since the 1990s, I've tried various passive preamps from Creek after hi fi mags at the time kept raving about them, but due to my relatively close location to a local radio station, I can hear AM radio stations on my rig when using passive preamps during quiet musical passages.
Great video! Thanks Calvin. Hello from Nova Scotia. Nice to have you back. You are so right about playing around with stereo gear until you get it right. I have one system with a Simaudio Moon P3 preamp into an older Bryston 4B with again older floor-standing Energy Veritas 1.8 speakers. Very shrill not pleasing at all. Swapped in a mid seventies Marantz Model 3200 pre amp, with the anathema of the supposed audiophile: tone controls. System is now entirely tamed and very mellow on music of all sorts. In another independent system in my house, I paired the Moon P3 with a very mellow NAD C272 power amp and the combination with vintage B&W DM 603’s is absolutely delightful. Both systems are bi-wired (why not eh?) All Canadian gear except the B&W’s. Thing of beauty!
Great to see you are back with another of your interesting and informative videos. I have toyed with the idea of getting a valve pre-amp but I worry that the only truly affordable ones are made in China and might not be as good and serviceable as more expensive ones made in the US, UK, and Europe etc.
When I was just getting started and didn't understand much about the things that can effect sound quality, my biggest concern with preamps was reliability. Like other stereo components, preamps had moving parts that could be defective or wear out and reliability still mattered more to me than sound quality, simply because reliability was such an issue at the low levels that I was dealing with. I think it still holds true that one of the reasons to consider spending more or less on a piece of HiFi gear can have nothing to do with sound quality and be the simple practical matter of whether or not it will be reliable and just do the job right in the first place. I do believe that at some level of build quality almost any preamp will do a very good job. Certainly every aspect of the signal path makes a difference, but I particularly agree that the preamp is usually going to have a marginal impact on the output. Sometimes it's a big change, but not usually. If the preamp is functioning properly, in most cases what matters is that they're easy to use and aren't broken or won't break.
@@stereoreviewx I hear that! This is a great example of what I believe are the layers upon layers of perspective that we get in HiFi audio that so often get lost in our discussions. At some level all separates are so much better than mass-produced equipment that we see clear distinct classes. But then within the separates realm the strata are numerous and we quickly find ourselves differentiating between them in a ways that feel like the differences between entry level and luxury grade. It's part of why the hobby never gets old for me. No matter how closely I look and listen, I feel like I'm always discovering another layer - more details that differentiate one model from another.
A great combo IMHO is a valve preamp and a Class A power amp. Bit of valve sound with lots of power on tap and no valve power tubes to replace, many preamp valves can last for a decade and sometimes more. Of course it's still about system synergy but it's a very good template to build from.
Interesting comment, yes, trying to design something that supposed not to have its own sound while not destroying the sound of things connected to it is not easy. Passive preamps sound like a great idea until you get into gain and output impedance also pots have channel imbalances especially at the start of the volume track. Some upmarket designs switch dedicated pairs of precision resistors into discrete buffers for volume controls. Some use transformer taps switched via rotary switches.
I was able to acquire a hard to find Rega combo of a pair of Exon 3 mono blocks and a Cursa 3 preamp. I have to say the Cursa 3 was nice but I found the voices too forward and bright. I decided to buy an Audio Research SP14 preamp to pair with my Exons and the combo is fantastic! I sold the Cursa 3 and will be keeping the SP14. The phono stage on the SP14 is hard to beat also. Thanks so much for posting. Very informative.
MY Experience the Preamp makes the Sound. BUT.......... First thing i did whas to set up a Poweramp like a Rock(Krell KSA-200S) which can handle every speaker. Do this Step ones right and you dont have never again think about in the Future. And from this Point you may play around with different Preamps. Maybe Trans or Tube or Digital. And without anny Doubt: Preamp/Amp Combinations are a nice Playground.
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Would love to hear you talk more about how valve pre-amps are game changers. That is certainly the case with guitar amps but I've never quite understood how that would translate to HiFi. Thanks again for the videos !!
Well you’re going to get a good portion of the valve sound light fairy detailed articulate maybe lose a bit of bass along the way but the mid range should sing
The best kind of pre amp the the one you can't hear, what I mean by that is a pre amp that adds nothing to the sound. Basically a source selector and a volume control.
I had one of those rotel preamps along with two of their power amps in bridged mode....amazing results.......but only when two power amps bridged...sounded average with just a single power amp.
A valve pre with a beefy power amp behind it feels (intuitively) like the "sound" combination almost EVERYONE is dreaming of - wide spacious airy soundstage with dreamy vocals and sublime decay on instruments, but then with the grip, drive, solidity and foundational OOMPH of the power amp keeping things tight and defined. I really don't understand why this isn't actually standard practice for enthusiasts - myself included! (I've never tried it). I've always fancied a single ended valve amp, but the only one's I'd really be interested in buying (Decware) are like hens teeth on the second hand market in Europe, and waiting lists now spanning years. Primaluna also pique my interest but I just stomach paying such a lot of money for Chinese made stuff. Does anyone have any strong recommendations for valve pre amps? In fact, if you're using a valve pre, what combos are you using? (Pre and power). Cheers!
After 40 years of research and many different systems I have come to this conclusion: Valve preamp and solid state power amp is the way to go. You get the oomph combined with the delicacy and you can roll valves to change the sound to your delight. Brace for the rabbit hole.
I would argue ignore class A A/B if you want a real heavyweight power amp They tend to triple and quadruple in price over 100 watts per channel even second hand I use valve preamp to drive class D 600 watts per channel. Always had solid state The Xiang Sheng 728a £300 valve pre smoked a £1300 Rotel preamp The power amp was £800 new
To think the preamp as a sound destroyer and the power amp as a sound enhancer meanwhile the source and the speakers define the major percentage of the sound character.
Am i correct in thinking ??? That you can use a power amplifier connected to a pre amplifier connected to a source E,G cd player.. and I would no longer need my integrated amplifier..Or have I got that completely wrong ???...Thanks Andrew.. .
Hi, Appreciate your advice I have a pair of HiFi Speaker Power rated at 15 W min - 130W. Would like to know, if were to use an Amplifier with a higher Power rating than the Speaker would it damage my mentioned rated speaker i.e Ad Amplifier with rated Power of 2 x 150 W into 8 ohms Amp Which would best the best suitable and matching Amplifier WATTS to drive my speakers with the below-shown Amplifier power rating 2 x 150 W into 8 ohms 2 x 75 W into 8 ohm 2 x 60 W into 8 ohms Thanks in advance
Well 90% of the time if the speaker doesn’t start complaining you’re okay don’t push the base of course I mean I’ve put 100 W into those little Rogers rated at 15 W just don’t blast it
I agree. However I also like passive preamps too. I made my own with an Alps volume potentiometer and a rotary switch that allows six inputs and I put in three outputs as well as a switch to bypass the volume control so I can just use the input selection. This worked out well and I'm getting the sound from the sources uncolored. I recently tried a Bellari eq570 between the pre and amp. It works great for poor recordings and it has a bypass feature. But I still want a tube preamp...
But what about the case of an integrated amplifier? I have a Prima Luna EVO 400 that includes a preamp. It sounds fantastic with a pair of Sonus Faber Maxima Amator! Technically speaking, how would a dedicated preamp would benefit the sound quality as you add cables and possibly coloration?
Yes I mean I really hate adding cables So that preamp if you get a new preamp it better be a significant plus cause you’re gonna lose a little bit on those cables and the plugs you know
As a guitarist im aware that the pre amp shapes the tone of the instrument and the power amp simply makes it louder. Generally all guitar amps sound different from each other, Fender, Marshall and Vox all make very different sounding amps and this is due to the differences in pre and power amp stages. I thought that a hifi amp should faithfully recreate the sound that the artists, producers and engineers worked so hard to create in the studio, not change it however subtly. therefore surely neither the preamp or the power amp should colour the sound in any way, we just need the amp to make the music louder? Or am I missing something? Great channel BTW
Hi Calvin. I enjoy your videos. I was looking for a new one and see you've been on holiday for a while now. Are you you doing ok bud? I pray you're well and just needed a break. God bless you Hi-Fi friend.
Can't get real heavyweight power in an integrated . Most "powerful" integrated's top out around between 125- 220 watts per channel . My 120 watt Arcam ran out of steam driving Ruark floorstanders in a small living room at 8 Ohms 86db sensitivity. So did my friends Anthem 225 watt integrated NORD2 600watts classD £800 and a cheapy £300 Xiang Sheng valve preamp with some vintage valves destroyed components twice their price in the Arcam and 3 times the price in the Anthem. My mate sold his Anthem too
Preamp to me is more related to the emotional side of music. It is about getting musician's intentions right. He or she keeps practicing a piece of music thousands times. They all sound like the same power amp . Finally he/she feels satisfied and that's with the best preamp. Subtle but true.
Glad you're well. My 2 cents: match amp and speakers and room then match preamp to amp and sources. I like tube analog gear with my turntable. Stay well!
Thanks mate, your channel is certainly giving us a lot of useful and insight information into the world of audio. I need to ask you a question about taking things a little further with regards to upgrading your current setup. I own a pair of KEF R700 powered by a Marantz Ruby amp. Next step is to add a pre-amp, monoblocks and new speakers. What’s your strategy for coupling these components together so they form a coherent sound? The design of a component is as important as the sound output. For example, coupling a product from Japan with the USA or Europe... don’t these countries have their own particular sound signature? Cheers
Well I’m not super familiar with the components you’re talking about but I wouldn’t judge it on national sound characteristics but on each components characteristics
I had a similar Rotel pre-amp to that in the 90s. Yeah its not great but I had a NZ McLaren amp and everything went 'woomph'. I sold the Rotel and got a Carver preamp and suddenly the veil lifted to use the cliche, but it was bassier and sparklier. I think for me I didn't so much think of things as changing the sound per se but letting things happen. Top of my my chain was a really sweet Ortofon MC cart and supex step up. Liquid sound. I know I wasted money eg speaker cable. You get that.
Class A amplifiers are the way to go next to that is speakers speakers are what you hear music come from and when ever you want to have that live performance sound real speakers make the music come to life pre amps are the same its all a matter how good are the parts inside , some semi conductors are good some are bad and just cheaply made like stuff in japan or china just cheaply mas produced electronics . if you want something really cool is to build it your self , there are tons of books on how to make things like a book on Electronics i have some books from my father who was a Ham operator , i use to love to play with short wave radios like Helicrafters , best tube radios ever made nothing in todays modern world can compare to that remember radios came first even Tesla invented a boat that was radio controlled plus other things like antigravity . Electronic history is cool subject to explore i have seen many cool electronic devices like the history of computers , I enjoy my computer and i can reach out to others through youtube just like this today , and good subjects like HIFI gear . i enjoy what you have to say about Hi Fi gear keep up the good work . 🙂
Witam Pana mam pytanie mam audiolab 8000a i jest tam niby wejscie bezpośrednio do końcówki mocy z oznaczeniem power amp i podpiąłem oddzielnie odtwarzaccz z regulacją głosu i nic nie gra jakby było nie czynne co to za problem może być z góry dziękuję dziękuję
Welcome back Kelvin. Why don’t manufacturers include both preamp and power amp options on integrated amps. I see more int amps with the preamp out option only.
Looks like a nice sunny holiday you had, Kelvin. What would be a good entry level pre-amp that would add something to the Sansui au-317? Usually pre-amps go for prices over 200 euro's/pounds. The only more affordable ones seem the those made by NAD, but are those any good? e.g the Nad 1020a or something like it? I'm not really familiar with what they made and when.
Nothing decent under 200 euros. The 1020 is a decent preamp but it was made in the early 80s...If you can get a second hand one, in good condition and it is what you're after in general, go for it.
My feelings are with the 317 just keep it as it is or go much better but I don’t think you’ll benefit from adding a two even £300 preamp it’s not going to add a lot might not add anything . Just change things you might like it you might not K
@@stereoreviewx Thanks. Just tinkering with the system to get a bit more out of it. I might get a Musical Fidelity - The Missing Link tube line stage to play with a bit. They don't cost too much, but then again I might have the 317 recapped. That would also set me back about 200 and it would be like new.
i think you've never even heard of DSPs.... much better than any pre-amp, you can tune the frequency response of speakers to make them as flat and linear as possible.... anything else is a joke really
I've played around with the pre and power amp thing, and in my experience it just wasnt worth it for me, the extra money spent for such little gain and I was disappointed I was using arcam alpha 8 integrated and arcam alpha 9 power amp with mission 752 speakers which Was a half decent set up.. Nothing amazing, I soon sold the arcam and bought a yamaha as701 amplifier and the sound was far better
I well partially agree with what you’re saying pre-power amp separation is one of those subjects you wish no one ever started because as you say it’s expensive but it can be rewarding and raise everything but yes you Gotta be really on it
Hi Kelvin good explanation as ever. You like myself split pre/power amps a lot to review and test but what is your view on matched pre/power set ups as a comparison. Surely the designers should know what the system components are needed to electronically match the two. Plus some people like the system to look aesthetically pleasing as well.
Yes I mean my instinct is to ignore matching equipment only because you can get too much of the same thing I’ve definitely experience that the technical side of it kind of barely matters I would’ve thought but the sound side of it is the big deal I’ve just always kind of ignored that concept Interesting question I might even do a video on that K
Since you like 1970's Sansui gear... maybe some mix and match between pre and final amps would be instructive. E.G. the AU-317 has preamp out and you prob have other AU integrateds with final amp in. When your head is centered in the bursting rays, you appear like the figure in the stained glass window behind the altar of my Mum's church. Just need to outstretch your arms.
Do you know of any reason not to place a midrange below a woofer with the tweeter above the woofer? Im looking at modifying some 2 way store bought speakers into 3 ways and can only place the mid under the woofer. Thoughts?
Well my first thought is I never seen it done hardly ever which makes me wonder. Second thought is what about mounting the tweeter on top of the speaker not in the baffle and then you can get them in a row or even have it movable and pick the best position moving left to right I mean.
i can't completely agree with your conclusions regarding the importance of a pre-amp. IMO amp and pre amp are equally important. A weak "inferior" amp compared to the pre-amp will be the weakest chain and will prevent the pre-amp performing as it should be able of. My experience: I have a Krell krc-hr pre-amp and I recently bought a new amp; the old one(s) were to monoblocks Vincent SP-T100 and the new one is a CODA no 8. My speakers are Dynaudio Confidence 20. The speakers and pre-amp appeared to be very revealing. I guess the source (IFI Micro IDSD Black + IUSB and SOTM SP500 + NEO 200 ultra) also contributed to this. So changing the amp resulted in a night/day change of the system performance. My conclusion is my old amps lacked resolution and had a significantly higher noise floor (at higher volumes sith no music playing there was a hearable hiss, which is completely absent now) Old: more warm sound, not very detailed on the lows, sweet on the highs. Average macro and micro dynamics (a bloom on all frequencies), very nice with vocals/mid frequencies. new: really deep and well defined bass, very dynamic (macro and micro), much wider soundstage, well captured ambience, very quiet/low noise floor so long decay times, much better separation of instruments. The sound is very neutral and seemed in the beginning a bit on the bright side, but I guess it's the process of changing from a warm signature to a neutral signature, because I notice I am getting used to it. Unfortunately I have not tested the CODA on a below average performing pre-amp yet and see what that does to the performance (I might once give it a try with my Denon AVR which has a pre-out).
Intergrated amplifiers have a pre amp... What the difference really is, that you seperate the two in components. Which allows you, not to be constrained by the design/part budget, and constrains of integrated amplifiers. The way I look at it, pre amp vs power amp what is the bigger player. I feel you cannot really seperate the importance of both.
My humble experience is, that if I bypass a very, very simple and cheap preamp made of an NE3255 opamp, once the gain of the preamp is set to unity, i can hear ABSOLUTELY no difference, no matter how hard I try. I have a switch for quickly taking the opamp in and out of line, so i am not basing my comparison on my "acoustic memory", but almost on blind A-B comparison. My conclusion is therefore that, at least with my gear, it is useless to look for a better preamp. The NE5532 is simply great, and costs nothing.
I'm trying to put together a home theater system and have bought the new Polk Reserve 200s and looking for something that can work with my Samsung Q60r that has arc and a optical out. I'm thinking about just getting the New yamaha Rxa4a but it alot of money but I need something powerful enough for the Polks because they are 4ohm. It's hard to find a decent Pre amp that isn't high dollar unless i Emotiva or iotavx. I just want to have a small Home theater system for Music/ Movies &Games. I don't know of any other Pre amps. Well u said to look at Valve?
@@Yiannis2112 I'm thinking 5.1 It's a small room 12 by 12 . I just saw emotiva is Released their new Pre amp today the Pt1. I want to have Atmos too but don't know how many channels that takes ? I can do 5.1 atmos ?
@@RockCity1111 For a strictly 5.1 set up, you'll obviously need a 5.1 AV receiver. Front right, front left, center, back right, back left for the 5 and a subwoofer for the .1. Or a 5.1 channel preamp & 5 channel power amp combo. You can't do that with the PT1, as it is a stereo (2 channel) preamp. For 5.1 you can also have a lets say 7.1 AV receiver. Those 2 extra (side right and side left) channels might be useful, in case you want to add 2 more (side) channels, in the future. There is no such thing as 5.1 atmos. The minimum number of channels for atmos is two, and you'll end up having a 5.1.2 channel system. Five speakers around the room, one subwoofer, and two height speakers. Hence you'll need a 7.1 AV Receiver that does Atmos. Or a 7.2 receiver (which nowadays is much more common) and you'll use only one subwoofer. Meaning you'll use it as 7.1, despite it being a 7.2. To avoid any confusion, to get Atmos we're not referring to those "simple" 7.1 receivers of a few years back, before the Atmos or DTS X height channels format/configuration, was introduced.
@@jim586 So the sound engineer already knew signal will be conditioned by pre-amp and made it a bit too hard, so it will be later pulled back by pre-amp?
@@PeSOVIN Ah, good question. I have no idea. I worked in pro Audio and to be honest none of them gave any consideration for what would be classified as HiFi.
