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PRESSURE-SENSING Make Up Air for Homes? (AND WHY IT'S COMPLICATED)- Airscape MUA System 

Home Performance
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People have asked many times whether a whole-home make up air system can simply monitor the house pressure, and equalize it automatically when necessary. This would handle depressurization from bath fans, kitchen exhaust hoods, vented dryers, and fireplaces.
While there IS a system available that aims to do this (airscapefans.com/collections/..., it cannot completely eliminate the pressure imbalances smaller than 2 Pascals because of the variance in wind (and stack effect).
I have personally seen fireplaces backdraft with as little as 2 Pascals of home depressurization.
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13 фев 2024

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Комментарии : 56   
@globaldemise
@globaldemise 3 месяца назад
More more more! Love this content. We need a device like this that can work up to 2000cfm and be infinitely variable and can average the pressure from outside to inside to run the fan to stay on average at 0 pascals or the ability to stay slightly pressurized.
@tonytango6676
@tonytango6676 3 месяца назад
I can see adding a wood-burning high efficiency firebox in case the power goes off. However, I would run make up air directly from the outside to the firebox intake so it is a closed system that doesn’t affect the house. Unless the front doors open when you add wood or are starting the fire.
@PandorasFolly
@PandorasFolly 3 месяца назад
Yeah most of the high efficiency fire places have that as a normal option with all the proper pipe and sizing info calculated out along with a cold air flue and regualtor. They do that One because the makeup air thing but mostly so you burn with cold outside air and arent loosing air you already heated out the flue. Also cold air is a bit denser so it has a bit more oxygen.
@dondumitru7093
@dondumitru7093 3 месяца назад
Better than a firebox, install solar with a hybrid inverter and batteries. You'd get the benefit of solar power (!!!) in addition to having batteries to run your home for some period of time if the grid goes down. That's a much better payback than putting in a firebox that by your telling would ONLY be used when the grid goes down.
@ZergZfTw
@ZergZfTw 3 месяца назад
@@dondumitru7093 A wood-burning stove or mass heater can heat for a tiny fraction of the cost of a solar and battery system, especially if you are willing to put in the work to cut and split the wood yourself. Solar is great and definitely has its place. But most people can't afford a solar array and battery bank big enough to handle a multi-day power outage during the winter time, double so at northern locations that only get a few hours of low-quality sun every day.
@dondumitru7093
@dondumitru7093 3 месяца назад
@@ZergZfTw But the theory of the case was to install a wood burning stove ONLY for when the grid goes out. And I think that's just crazy talk. I mean, install a generator hookup for when the grid goes out. At least then you aren't sacrificing the tightness of your house which counts 24x365, vs. "when the grid goes down" which presumably doesn't happen that often. Or install (as I proposed) a solar system. Then you get a benefit 24x365 in ADDITION to having mitigation when the grid goes out. And both a generator and a solar system provide more than just heat when the grid goes down. You might even still have internet (depending on the cause of the grid outage), so you can keep up with posts from Home Performance.
@ZergZfTw
@ZergZfTw 3 месяца назад
@@dondumitru7093 Yes, solar is great if it's a project that makes sense. But expecting a solar and battery system to be both affordable on a low-end home budget and big enough to cover a house for more than a few hours is a laughable idea, especially if it's in a northern latitude or a northern slope. A well-designed wood stove or masonry heater gives you the option to heat for pennies compared to a solar. And they can be made airtight; maybe not passive house airtight. There are plenty of houses in Europe that manage it. Plus, I would like to see the payback time and air quality difference on a 0.6 ACH house versus a 1.5 ACH house; I would bet they aren't that different.
@MrTimtimmytime
@MrTimtimmytime 3 месяца назад
DIY solution, use pressure sensor with Arduino microcontroller, send a PWM signal to an AC Infinity variable speed (EC motor) blower fan. Currently controlling their Cloud Line A6 model fan in this way. The fan speed can be adjusted to perfectly match the desired pressure.
@jackjmaheriii
@jackjmaheriii 3 месяца назад
Interesting… Are there any plans or videos for this solution?
@N-M424
@N-M424 3 месяца назад
Yes, and you could have a mode for when using the fire-place to target 1 Pa pressurization instead of trying to perfectly go for 0 Pa.
@hlhl2691
@hlhl2691 3 месяца назад
We need an airtight fireplace solution, that works togther with the erv system. I like the idea of having an air-tight glass doors for a wood burning fireplace, and then open the doors whenever you want to use it.
@tomtaft5056
@tomtaft5056 3 месяца назад
Thank you. Good video. Unintended consequences. There are all kinds of reasons for constructing an airtight house, and you have opened the door to thinking carefully about all of the unintended consequences of every improvement.
@ronm6585
@ronm6585 3 месяца назад
Thanks for sharing.
@craiglindsey4529
@craiglindsey4529 3 месяца назад
I would love to hear you talk about how to integrate wood burning stoves into a high performance house; not just discount them. I want to incorporate them in my plan for reduced reliance on external infrastructure. How would you do that? Introduce external air intake into the combustion chamber? Thanks!
@jackjmaheriii
@jackjmaheriii 3 месяца назад
Great video, and great timing! I just retained an architect. We’re going to have either a wood stove or fireplace insert in my home… Is the move to add a manual switch to the Fantech, some kind of direct vent into the firebox, or just crack a window on the days when my wife wants a fire? All observations and opinions are welcome!
@jackjmaheriii
@jackjmaheriii 3 месяца назад
I actually just learned that a lot of wood stoves have a cold air intake on the back that you can run straight to the inside in a mostly sealed system.
@shubinternet
@shubinternet 3 месяца назад
So, I'm curious to know if there is a way to allow you to operate an open fireplace some of the year (if maybe the electricity goes out and it's really cold outside, like we had in Texas a couple of years ago), and at other times you could seal up that fireplace well enough that it wouldn't leak air. Are there systems that can seal a wood burning fireplace that well?
@kingflippynips3102
@kingflippynips3102 2 месяца назад
Could the fireplace issue be mitigated with an electric mechanical dampener at the top of the chimney?
@tonytango6676
@tonytango6676 3 месяца назад
I would also like to add a large wood fired brick oven. This would have a dedicated exhaust to the outside, but obviously would require some make up air. I was idly thinking of adding a heat sensor to the chimney to turn on the make up air. Chuckle.
@robertjordan294
@robertjordan294 2 месяца назад
The house you found where the house back-drafted at 2 Pa was probably tight. For a renovated house with an existing fireplace, now at 2 or 3 ACH50 would this, or some other system work? The builder or owner isn't going to want to take out a fireplace. I have read it isn't legal to have air-tight glass doors. Which I learned when I unsuccessfully tried to find air-tight glass doors.
@HomePerformance
@HomePerformance 2 месяца назад
2 Pa is 2Pa- in a leakier home it will take more CFM to induce 2 Pa, but the effects are the same.
@ryansoo4000
@ryansoo4000 3 месяца назад
What about sealed wood stoves with outside combustion air vents? Are they OK to use in a very tight home?
@HomePerformance
@HomePerformance 3 месяца назад
You can try, but I know several competent people who have tried and failed.
@r.j.bedore9884
@r.j.bedore9884 3 месяца назад
Out of curiosity, why can't an ERV/HRV be used for makeup air? Do they just not flow enough, and if that's the case, why aren't manufacturers making them large enough to do that? Or is it just a problem of someone not specifying the proper size unit to allow for makeup air? On a side note, while I'm not sure about fire places, there are plenty of wood stoves that will pipe in outside air directly into the fire box so that they don't pull air from the house. The doors on the stove can be made to seal tighter that way too, which means less chance of smoke or carbon monoxide in the house. Also, the cooler, denser outside air will have more oxygen and will thus be theoretically less likely to have incomplete combustion, and is similar to how some high efficiency furnaces work. If you have a client in the future that insists on a woodburning fireplace, maybe try and convince them to get one of these woodstoves instead. They can also be configured with glass doors if they insist on being able to see the flames.
@SteveM0732
@SteveM0732 Месяц назад
My wife and I are purchasing a 1962 construction split level. There is a fireplace in the mostly finished basement, a fireplace on the main floor that has a wood burning insert (it smoked too much), and in the basement a non-condensing gas furnace that draws combustion air from the basement. Would a make up air unit make sense for this house?
@HomePerformance
@HomePerformance Месяц назад
Yes, but get a blower door test first
@BirchwoodBill
@BirchwoodBill 3 месяца назад
1986 house, deep retrofit with ccSPF for ACH50 of 1.25. Fireplace is no longer functional - have stopped using.
@HamidA-to8vy
@HamidA-to8vy 2 месяца назад
What kind of instrument you used to measure 2 or 3 Pa?
@HomePerformance
@HomePerformance 2 месяца назад
A TEC or Retrotec digital manometer
@wendellsatterwhite50
@wendellsatterwhite50 3 месяца назад
Is there a sealed wood stove option that has a glass front that also has a air source designed in to pull air from outside for combustion, hopefully leaving air in home unaffected?
@HomePerformance
@HomePerformance 3 месяца назад
There are apparently 'passive house woodstoves' but the devil is always in the details.
@jmondanaro
@jmondanaro 3 месяца назад
Yes, lookup Stuv.
@gingerznz5742
@gingerznz5742 3 месяца назад
Does that assume you have no outside air coming in through an erv or similar or is it just for a momentary event just as running the kitchen exhaust where the erv can't keep up?
@johnhaller5851
@johnhaller5851 3 месяца назад
You don't want an ERV to be the makeup air supply, as it's either going to be over-pressurizing the house all the time. That puts more workload on the motor, which uses more energy, and wears the motor out faster. It's also unlikely to provide enough air for makeup.
@dondumitru7093
@dondumitru7093 3 месяца назад
My impression is that the problem is that products in the "ERV" category just can't keep up in terms of moving air volumes, and also that BALANCING is a major problem. If you have 3 bath fans, and a kitchen exhaust hood, that is (if my math is correct) 8 different levels of exhaust from the house (and I didn't include a clothes dryer, which would double the combinations again). If the ERV uses a pressure sensor, it has the problem described in this video of sensitivity. If instead it uses electrical switching then the ERV product needs to be able to be hand-tuned to 8 different CFM settings to match the various combinations of exhaust volumes, and current ERV's I don't think have those levels of customization available.
@ZergZfTw
@ZergZfTw 3 месяца назад
@@dondumitru7093 You could use constant airflow regulators and motorized dampers to control each "zone" and use a duct pressure sensor to control fan speed so that the duct pressure is somewhere in the CARs regulation range, 0.75inWC, let's say.
@jeremyjedynak
@jeremyjedynak 3 месяца назад
Regarding the comment at ~5m07s into the video about needing a hard wired connection to the home network, almost every WiFi AP device these days (including ~$25 ones from Walmart) has a "client" mode where it connects to your home's wireless network and any physical ports on the WiFi AP can then be used to connect any wire-only devices. This can essentially turn a wire-only device into a wireless-enabled one, as long as you have power for the AP, and can save you from having to run Ethernet to odd places around the house.
@dondumitru7093
@dondumitru7093 3 месяца назад
I am personally opposed to using wi-fi for any home automation, AND ESPECIALLY for something critical like make-up air, because there is simply no way that wi-fi is as reliable as an actual ethernet connection. I certainly understand the convenience, but manufacturers who for example only support wi-fi are IMO advertising how un-serious their products are.
@jeremyjedynak
@jeremyjedynak 3 месяца назад
​​​@@dondumitru7093You're entitled to your opinion, and to do what you want in your own home, but running long data wires all over a house isn't technically necessary in 2024. Circa 2000, I wired every room in our home with two Cat 5e Ethernet ports and two RG-6 coax ports. Today, only one of any of those ports is being used, to connect a remote AP back to the main wireless router. Literally every endpoint device is using wireless communication (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Zigbee, or Matter). This is what the present -- and the future -- looks like.
@shubinternet
@shubinternet 3 месяца назад
I've been a computer geek since 1984, and a professional Unix/Linux system administrator (and related professions) since 1989. I've run Ethernet cables (including thick net with vampire taps and thin-net with BNC connectors, as well as the more common UTP), and I run a multi-AP mesh wifi system here in my house today, with my own network rack in a closet. For something like this, I would never ever run it over WiFi. WiFi is fine for mobile devices or laptops, and wireless protocols like Zigbee and z-Wave are fine for some home automation systems, but for core critical systems that have a direct impact on your HVAC, those should only ever be hard-wired.
@jeremyjedynak
@jeremyjedynak 3 месяца назад
​@@shubinternet What is the specific technical reason that you wouldn't use Wi-Fi to connect HVAC equipment that comes with a physical ethernet port?
@N-M424
@N-M424 3 месяца назад
@@jeremyjedynak I am guessing if "S Hub Internet" responds, it will be something about wired always being more reliable and secure compared to wireless and certain things need absolute reliability and security. Want to see his wired garage door opener setup.....
@gaspererjavec7108
@gaspererjavec7108 3 месяца назад
Why not just exhaust all the air trough the erv? If you would use filters of course. Or run the erv with a unbalance so more on the intake side.
@tullgutten
@tullgutten 3 месяца назад
You never want kitchen grease in long duckts and ESPECIALLY in the ERV/HRV core
@gaspererjavec7108
@gaspererjavec7108 3 месяца назад
@@tullgutten That's why it would be filtered coming directly from the hood.
@ZergZfTw
@ZergZfTw 3 месяца назад
Theoretically possible, but it would require a massive erv. It's an option, but very expensive probably.
@gaspererjavec7108
@gaspererjavec7108 3 месяца назад
@@ZergZfTw I got a Samsung 1000 cmh erv for 800€, that's about 600cfm and i will be able to actively control the flow on the suction side for each vent, even the hood. It's only 70% efficient at full power but it's not going to run at that rate all of the time, only when i really need it.
@ZergZfTw
@ZergZfTw 3 месяца назад
@@gaspererjavec7108 That's a good price for an erv. If that is enough flow for the hood, I say go for it. It might require more frequent cleaning, though.
@terrymohr7483
@terrymohr7483 3 месяца назад
Please qualify your comments about fireplaces to provide the disclaimer to the blanket statements of "do not put a fireplace in an airtight house " to include that "this only applies to open faced fireplaces". Close fireplaces with outside makeup air are not effected by the tightness of the house because they draw air from the outside though their makeup air vents. Close face fireplaces are becoming the norm in today's homes.
@HomePerformance
@HomePerformance 3 месяца назад
Well if you actually watch the video I do say that, but I actually have seen ‘’sealed” ones give issues too because the devil is in the details
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