Princess Mary's Marriage: Henry VIII's Missed Chance?

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Why didn’t Henry VIII find spouses for his children, in particular Mary? If Mary had married at a younger age, might she have produced one or more grandsons? If she had, would this have altered Henry’s later behaviour? Let’s talk about it…
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Linked videos and playlists:
Edward VI: • Edward VI: A Tiny Tyrant?
Images (from Wikimedia Commons, unless otherwise stated):
Portrait of Queen Mary I, attributed to Lucas Horenbout (or Hornebolte) (c.1525). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Queen Mary I by Master John (1544). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Mary I of England by Hans Eworth (1554). Held by the Society of Antiquaries of London.
Detail from the Westminster tournament roll showing Henry VIII tilting in front of Katherine of Aragon (1511). Held by the College of Arms.
Portrait of Henry VIII by Joos van Cleve (c. 1531). Held by the Royal Collection.
Portrait of Maximilian I from the workshop of Joos van Cleve (c.1530). Held by the Noordbrabants Museum.
Portrait of Emperor Maximilian and his family by Bernhard Strigel (after 1515). Held by the Kunsthistorisches Museum.
The engagement of François d'Angoulême (Francis I) and Claude de France by Guillaume II Le Roy in the Chroniques de Louis XII , BNF , Fr.5083, folio 1 verso.
“The Field of the Cloth of Gold” by an unknown artist of the British School (c.1545). Held by the Royal Collection.
Portrait of Emperor Charles V by Bernard van Orley (c.1515-1520). Held by the Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest.
Portrait of James V of Scotland by Corneille de Lyon (c.1536). Held in a private collection.
Emperor Charles V and Empress Isabella by Peter Paul Rubens after Titian (17th century). Held by the Liria Palace.
Portrait of François I by Jean Clouet (between 1527 and 1530). Held by the Louvre Museum.
Portrait of Henri, duc d'Orléans by Jean Clouet (1520s). Held at the Condé Museum.
Henry VIII's first interview with Anne Boleyn by Daniel Maclise (by 1836). Held in a private collection.
Portrait of Katherine of Aragon by an unknown artist (c.1520). On loan to the National Portrait Gallery, London; Lent by permission of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Church Commissioners for England, 2011.
Portrait of Lorenzo Campeggio by an unknown artist (18th century). Current location unknown.
Portrait of Thomas Cranmer by Gerlach Flicke (1545-1546). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Anne Boleyn by an unknown artist (c. 1550). Held by Hever Castle.
Portrait of Margaret Tudor, Queen of Scotland by Daniël Mijtens (between c.1620 and c.1638). Held by the Royal Collection.
Detail from a portrait of Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon attributed to Jan Gossaert (c.1516). Held in the collection of the Earl of Yarborough; Brocklesby Park, Lincolnshire.
Edward VI's "devise for the succession", 1552 or 1553, written in his own hand. (Inner Temple, Petyt MS 538, vol. 47 fo. 317.)
Quoted texts:
CSP Venice, 1527-33, 105.
Eric Ives, ODNB entry for Henry VIII.
Campeggio to Sanga, 28th October 1528.
Ann Weikel, ODNB entry for Mary I.
Also consulted, were:
Other relevant entries from The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography Online.
#Tudor #History #Renaissance

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13 апр 2023

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Комментарии : 327

@charleston1789 Год назад

It still never ceases to astound me that Henry and his advisors legitimately considered marrying Mary and Henry Fitzroy. Just …. astounds me

@NepentheBlue Год назад

Henry seems to have been convinced that he had an almost divine right in his decision making. I've wondered what Mary thought about a union with Fitzroy. She was very devout and it would have been the height of hypocrisy for Henry to suggest/demand she marry her half brother when he'd divorced her own mother for being his sister-in-law. Had it gone through and if Mary had given birth to a healthy son, I imagine Henry would have essentially taken the boy over as his longed for heir with little thought to what Mary, as the child's mother, wanted. I've always felt quite sorry for Mary. What a strange, strained, and turbulent life she had as a youth. She even feared that her father posed a threat to her personal safety. (And, realistically, he did.)

@matteusconnollius1203 Год назад

The hypocrisy of Henry VIII is endlessly flabbergasting. Imagine using incest laws to annull a marriage to non blood relative while also have entertained the notion of marrying two of your children together

@marpop4056 Год назад

And the pope would have been willing to grant a dispensation for that marriage rather than annulling the marriage of Catherine and Henry, which had received an annulment by a previous pope. That would have meant one pope saying a previous pope was wrong in granting the annulment.

@monicacall7532 Год назад

Royal incest was fairly common at the time. Just look (literally) at the Spanish Habsburgs and how that all worked out. Inbreeding is bad news ALWAYS! It’s too bad that the study of genetics wasn’t around back then. It would’ve saved so many heartbreaks, deaths and political instability.

@cmcg9035 Год назад

Imperial Rome/Ancient Egypt all over again. Too much power at the top seems to make people think this is ok.

@MsJaytee1975 Год назад

Margaret Tudor wasn’t ousted as her son’s regent, she forfeited her position by remarrying.

@conemadam Год назад

Poor Mary! She had no better luck in an imagined life. Deeply tragic.

@manyagaver1946 Год назад

I can’t believe they thought about marrying her to Fitzroy. I mean I can but yikes

@Lionstar16 Год назад

They honestly thought sibling incest was a good idea? Jesus 😨

@athanksgivingbaby570 Год назад

The reality is that half siblings have produced children together. In a first generation incestuous breeding between half siblings, the children would have had only a slightly higher chance of genetic problems. Only if the pattern repeated through generations, as with the Hapsburgs, would it have become a genetic problem. The Tudors would have understood this, if not really the reasons why. As horrifying as we find the idea in the modern world, this was a time when cousin marriage was common and royalty was always concerned with concentrating power within families. Any heir that Mary and Fitzroy produced would have been undeniably a Tudor royal and that wasn't a small consideration at the time.

@CZPanthyr Год назад

I am sure that Henry was very aware (and probably frequently reminded of) the fact that he was "the spare" and only came to the throne because of the death of his brother. I wonder how much this played in his desire to have an heir and a spare.

@cakt1991 Год назад

It was the prevailing concept throughout history to secure the succession this way, and continues to this day (Prince Harry, whatever you may think of him, is proof of this). I do think Henry VIII being a spare, compounded by being part of a new dynasty which came to the throne after decades of infighting due to an insecure succession, all motivated him. But it motivated his father too. No doubt Henry VII and Elizabeth of York hoped to produce another spare after the loss of Arthur, which led to Elizabeth’s death in childbed in 1503. What makes Henry VIII so unique is his comparable infertility to those who came before and after him. His own mother was one of many children of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, and EW herself came from a large family.

@pbohearn Год назад

@@cakt1991 yes, the tudor curse. For every wife, he rid himself of, another of his issue was stillborn, or died in infancy, or born of the wrong gender. some would say cause and effect.

@sbookey Год назад

@@pbohearn But Henry fathered several other children with mistresses. I think his fertility after Jane Seymour was on the wane, though.

@charliekezza Год назад

It wasn't so much Henry's fertility that was the issue but the fact that he gave his wives syphilis. You might get one healthy child out early but after that it will be a struggle for the next one you have to wait for it to run its course and that's why he had only one child per wife/mistress, he'd killed them off before they got that far.

@cakt1991 Год назад

@@charliekezza the syphilis claim hasn’t been proven. Dr. Kat did a video (with a very clickbaity title!) on that very issue, going into the possibility of him having any number of diagnoses, but it’s hard to say for certain what it was.

@eshim3961 Год назад

Only Dr. Kat can take a story that one is very familiar with, and give it a whole fresh angle that makes you think. Amazing as always!

@ashyrosie Год назад

Seems like Edward VI would have skipped Mary and “her heirs male” unless she had married a Protestant and raised her children as such. I believe Edwards first priority was to keep a catholic off the throne.

@melchiorlise2466 Год назад

I always thought his reluctance to marry off any of his daughters was due to the fact that he was too scared that none of his other male children (already born or hypothetical) would survive to adulthood. If that happened and Mary or Elizabeth were married to some princes of elsewhere they wouldn't be able to return to rule England as queens. The throne would have then either passed to their children (who would have been born to foreign fathers in foreign countries) or to Margaret's children, two equally undesirable outcomes. Mary and Elizabeth were probably too precious as potential rulers who could perpetuate the dynasty to use as political bargaining tools.

@pbohearn Год назад

I can just picture Henry tossing and turning, unable to sleep obsessing about his worries

@alien-vu7yl Год назад

I think he worried that any foreign born grand son might attack England to claim his right, even if there were a legitimate heir on the throne. He was too much of a mysoginist to value Mary and Elizabeth as potential rulers, especially once Edward was born. Also, I think Elizabeth had to have learned dangling the marriage carrot from somewhere.

@schmetterlingxox3096 Год назад

@@alien-vu7yl My thoughts exactly! We have to also remember that the Tudors were essentially an upstart dynasty. Henry's father only became king after King Richard was slain at Bosworth Field and the 330 year Plantagenet rule was ended. Henry knew that many in England remained loyal to the Plantagenets and desired to see them restored to the throne. He had a number of his Plantagenet cousins executed for this reason. So for him it was of the utmost importance to produce a male heir to continue the Tudor line. If Mary or Elizabeth had foreign children who inherited the throne, the Tudor dynasty would have ended.

@alien-vu7yl Год назад

@@schmetterlingxox3096 Yes to everything you said. However I will always love how despite Henry’s struggle for a male heir, his daughters are the most famous Tudor rulers and Elizabeth’s reign basically set the course for the British Isles to rule half the world (not saying this was good, but it did happen).

@deborahbranham-taylor6682 Год назад

@@alien-vu7yl Go ahead and say it! There are myriad history videos proclaiming the great male rulers for prowess in their interminable wars for conquest and glory. At least Elizabeth didn’t bankrupt the nation and cause the deaths of thousands of men, quite the contrary.

@Alan.92n Год назад

Henry could've married her to one of her Plantagenet cousins, in fact before her marriage to Philip 11 of Spain, some wanted her to marry Edward Courtney, Earl of Devon. Mary never seemed to countenance that idea. Yes, she was 38, when she married Philip, and the reasons you gave for her childlessness, are valid. If only Henry, Duke of Cornwall, born in 1511, had lived, or Edward V1, had survived long enough to marry and have children, the history of England would've been so much different. Henry, irrespective of Mary's legitimacy, would've been wary of any marriage for Mary, combined with his outrage at her support for her mother. The birth of Edward also seemed to scupper any marriage for Mary, not helped when her legitimacy in any marriage negotiations, would be open to question. How ironic that for all Henry's efforts to secure his dynasty, all his children would die childless.

@KCFailsALot Год назад

I have always found it weird why it has always been said, especially in historical documentaries, that Mary wasn't able to marry since she was made illegitimate, even tho illegitimate children of monarchs had good marriage opportunities before. Sure, maybe not a foreign prince but some other high-ranking person like an earl or something🤔

@dominaevillae28 Год назад

The problem is that Mary *was* legitimate but later made illegitimate. Any children she had, particularly sons, would have been a rallying point for Catholics against a Protestant heir.

@Sattva468 Год назад

Mary didn’t marry until she was 37! I wondered why Henry didn’t focus on his daughters’ marriages which would have continued his bloodline. Looking forward to this video!

@RiseeRee Год назад

I think he may have been worried about the destabilization that would come from rival claimants. He also would have been concerned about England losing autonomy to a foreign power since women were meant to be subject to their husbands. Alternatively, marrying a subject had its issues too (just look at the bad blood that boiled up when his own grandmother married Edward IV) So if Mary got married and had a son, he would have been next in line until Edward was born (provided that he was born in England). But it’s pretty likely that Catholic Europe would support Mary’s (almost certainly Catholic) son’s claim over Edward’s regardless, similar to people supporting Mary Queen of Scots over Elizabeth I. Then if Edward had never been born, Mary and/or her husband would probably rule until their son reached his majority. England got swept up in Spain’s issues when Mary married Philip and this caused them to lose Calais. I think Henry could have expected the same if his grandson had a foreign father. If Mary had married a subject though, the court would be even more fractionated, and Henry would have been terrified of leaving seeds for another round of the Cousin’s Wars.

@mmmuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiirrrrr Год назад

Daughters getting married continued the LINE, yes, but eliminated the NAME. Maybe he was worried about husbands and sons that would challenge his son's crown.

@qkranarchist3015 Год назад

Interestingly, his daughter never married. In a time of *required marriages" two royals are so out of the norm.

@Autumn1988 Год назад

Because he was so focussed on getting his own son he didn’t think he could have had a grandson and a stable bloodline through his daughter

@gypsydonovan Год назад

He did make arrangements. Those fell through. He had declared Mary illegitimate & was personally angry, frustrated & resentful toward her & her undying support for her mother and the Catholic Church, so she became a low priority. As a child she was betrothed to François, the Dauphin of France. There were discussions about her cousins James V of Scotland & (more seriously) Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. At one point it was Francis I or his son Henri, Duke of Orleans Old enough to have a say, it was discussed that she marry William I, Duke of Cleves or Philip, Duke of Bavaria. Once the Boleyn marriage was finalized & Mary was deemed illegitimate, Henry stopped putting effort into it. by Philip, Duke of Bavaria. Unlike Elizabeth, Mary desperately wanted a husband & children. Withholding that was just another tool Henry used to try to force her to obey him.

@ShiningFriendship87 11 месяцев назад

I do think the main reason why Mary’s betrothals to the Dauphin of France and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V fell apart were largely due to the fact that Henry VIII didn’t want England to be taken over by another foreign power. This is precisely why he excluded the descendants of his elder sister, Margaret Tudor, from inheriting the throne. Mary’s potential marriage could have been seen as a threat to Henry’s rule and he would never risk that. Alternatively, had Mary married an English nobleman during her father’s reign and produced sons, Henry probably would have included them in the line of succession after Edward VI.

@gwynwellliver4489 Год назад

I've been learning about psychological safety and team building at work. I am not sure anyone felt psychologically safe with Henry to give him true advice. He even tried to control his children through his will

@prettypic444 Год назад

I think Henry (at least before Anne's marriage) was worried if mary made a foreign match, they may have another "empress Matilda" situation. The Tudor dynasty was still Very New, and there were still potential heirs who could challenge the dynasty. Foreign influence would be more a hinderance than a help... The less said about the Fitzroy marriage the better though

@kimberlyperrotis8962 Год назад

Annulments such as Henry VIII wished for of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon had nearly always been granted to kings and high nobles by the pope during the medieval and renaissance periods. If she hadn’t had such a powerful relative in Charles V, it likely would have been granted without much trouble, provided Henry gave the usual bribes to the pope.

@kimberlyperrotis8962 Год назад

I have an extremely low opinion of Henry VIII, but I always thought that Catherine could, and should, have accepted some sort of arrangement that would have freed him to marry again to try for kale heirs with another woman who could still bear children. I think he could have been persuaded to accept a compromise where the couple wouldn’t admit fault, Mary would remain legitimate, and Catherine would not have had to retire to a monastery. Wives in such positions could take vows of chastity, giving up the prospect of marriage, while still remaining in the secular world with a court and rich settlement. Henry was always a “good Catholic” and has some responsibility for the Reformation that ensued. The only way she left open for Henry to free himself from the marriage was to free himself from the Catholic Church.

@sunlotus8 Год назад

Great question🤓Considering the formidable and nurturing women that put Henry's parents on the throne (finally ending the long, bloody Cousin's War), Henry certainly underestimated his daughters' potential. I think Henry was very cruel to Mary, preventing her from being loved by her mother, himself, and any potential husband. So yes! It was a missed chance.

@baronessvonginger1585 Год назад

We know that historically by the end of his life, because of the way he treated his wives and his temperament in general, Henry had developed a reputation throughout Europe of not playing well with others. What is the possibility that one of the reasons why Mary never got a husband is because none of the other royal houses of Europe wanted to do business with him anymore? The more time passed the more Mary’s marriage negotiations seem to just go nowhere. Is that because nobody wanted Henry as an Inlaw but they just couldn’t say it out loud without offending one of the most volatile rulers in the known world at the time?

@peterromeo4379 Год назад

If Mary have married a foreign ruler, it would be very interesting to see how the succession would have unfolded after Edward VI’s death. There might’ve been a “War of the English Succession” of sorts, where Mary’s husband tries to invade England, while Elisabeth or another person is declared King there.

@WhiteCamry Год назад

That's essentially what happened, anyway.

@briandelaney9710 Год назад

If only Mary had a child to be the Hapsburg heir and King of England

@bajubner Год назад

It's such an interesting challenge to look at these betrothals through a modern lens and not find many of them creepy. Would you ever consider a video on the like, societal norms and beliefs at the time regarding age of consent, age of marriage, etc. and these gigantic age gaps?

@shayleaddison8 Год назад

I second this! It would be a very insightful video.

@elfsemail Год назад

Indeed. Henry VII’s mother was married at the age of 12 and gave birth to him at 13!

@awseven1144 Год назад

I think after the King’s great matter, not marrying her off was the only way he could justify splitting with Rome and the legitimacy of his subsequent marriage. Most likely Henry would’ve wanted an advantageous marriage possibly with a foreign power with Mary. The problem with that is he would’ve had to legitimize her and doing that would be an admission that he had no right to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. So the sad possibility is because of Henry’s actions. It kind of left Mary in the state of limbo, because there was no way that Henry could figure out how to use her in a way that benefited him. While Mary has a kind of negative reputation. I’ve always felt incredibly sorry for her. I sincerely believe many actions she took later in life were a direct result of the emotional turmoil and trauma inflicted on her by her father . Sometimes I do wonder if he had been kind and maybe married her off to an English nobleman and that she could’ve had a family and children if she would’ve been happier. But that presents another problem. She was a staunch Catholic and she likely would not have been happy with a marriage to a protestant , but Henry could not let her marry a Catholic so as to undermine his regime and give other European Catholic something to rally behind. She was truly in a lose lose situation.

@jamiemcvay130 Год назад

I, also, feel sorry for Mary. She wanted a real marriage with a husband who loved her; however, she married a man who just wanted to be King of England. She was called “Bloody Mary”, but she was submitting to her husband and to the Pope. Why didn’t anyone ever call her husband “Bloody Philip”?

@LenaFerrari 6 месяцев назад

He created circumstances such that Mary had no options. What a father

@janebaxter4825 Год назад

Poor Mary. Although I found “The Tudors” a bit (OK, totally!) OTT I did agree when Katherine of Aragon’s ghost appeared to Henry and told him that their daughter should be married, with children of her own.

@cathryncampbell8555 Год назад

Yet another lively, informative video, Dr. Kat: *Thank you!* Re: Queen Mary I & marriage & children -- I am reminded of the daughter of French Queen Marie Antoinette, Marie-Therese Charlotte, & of Empress Josephine. Both Marie-Therese & Josephine were imprisoned during the French Terror, and neither lady was able to conceive after they were released. Severe, prolonged stress, which *all* of these ladies suffered, can mess with a woman's fertility. Mary was an undersized, puny child to begin with. Her ghastly teenage years did nothing to make her healthier or more apt to conceive. So I do not think, in an alternative universe, that she could have had offspring. Which is tragic, as Mary loved children.

@sarahwatts7152 Год назад

I've never thought about these French women in light of Mary I. Fascinating!

@KatTheScribe Год назад

Good point!

@dendenne4856 Год назад

Mary wasn't imprisoned, and H8 never seriously though about having her killed, I think she was stressed because of the loyalty conflict she was caught in

@LenaFerrari 6 месяцев назад

Sometimes people in miserable warzones have children. Sure, you are not wrong, stress affects a woman's ability to have children, but doesn't necessarily makes it impossible

@jakual339 Год назад

The counterfactual I find most interesting in this area of history is: What if Henry VIII had just... accepted the hand he'd been dealt, when it came to children? The obsession with having a son broke him with Rome, made enemies of former allies, and finally left him with a child King to inherit his throne and many years of strife. What if, instead of that, he'd invested all his energy into securing his (intelligent, capable, and diplomatically well-networked) daughter as regnant queen after him? What would that have looked like?

@countdownda 16 дней назад

Such a great point

@beckyferguson9493 Год назад

Mary had a very difficult life for one born with such privilege.

@leanie5234 Год назад

Would Mary's son have been a Tudor ? The Stuarts who inherited were as much Tudor as Mary's children would have been, yet everyone calls their ascension "the end of the Tudor line". I have always thought of Henry as a megalomaniac. He would always have wanted HIS son to rule. For his DAUGHTER to have a son probably would have been humiliating for him. Anyway, THAT son would have been the son of another ruler, say France or Spain...unless Henry married Mary to an Englishman, her son would not inherit as a Tudor since his sire's name would have been too important to ignore.

@manyagaver1946 Год назад

I wonder if, had Jane Seymour lived, Mary would have been married off

@Lionstar16 Год назад

I have no doubt she would have

@carinafourie9119 Год назад

Henry viewed her as illegitimate, Europe viewed her as legitimate. That conflict would always complicate marriage negotiations.

@mlr4524 Год назад

As horrible as she became, one can understand where she was coming from in terms of inner pain and turmoil, and have empathy for her. In modern terms, both Mary and Elizabeth would have suffered from C-PTSD, given what happened to their mothers and the roller coaster rides of their childhoods. Just being part of the Tudor Court could put one in mortal danger as we know.

@nancytestani1470 8 месяцев назад

I think a lot of us forget that Mary WAS the first queen regnant, I know I did. Coronation and all, so never been done before which was amazing, never been done before in England. All I remember is that she became Bloody Mary. Kinda sad.

@LusiaEyre Год назад

I think that the only way Mary's marriage and son(s) [let's be honest, girls would change nothing] could affect anything would be if they were born before Anne came on the scene or before Henry felt too desperate. So, if Mary was older , but she was still a child when the Great Matter began. Also, if her sons were not in line to inherit anything else substantial. Maybe if she had sons by a lesser princeling or a domestic match (a duke or a cousin). If Henry had one or two grandsons, maybe he wouldn't be so hell-bent on putting Catherine aside and just waited for her to die to marry again? That would still leave room for Jane (timeline wise), so Edward would probably exist anyway? But maybe Henry wouldn't start looking to ghost the Pope?

@pbohearn Год назад

So many possibilities; fourth, Mary gives birth via a legitimate marriage, preferably to a British nobleman, or the prince or king of Scotland, to a son, or sons, there may never have been Anne B, and therefore never an Elizabeth Regina, never a Jane Seymour, and therefore never the boy king. England would fremain Catholic and all of that religious divisiveNess inflicted upon the United Kingdom from then on until the current day, would never have occurred. and even if Anne B only had her one daughter, the line would go through Mary to her sons, and Elizabeth may never have become queen. But what if there were just the two girls at his death, and the people supported Elizabeth ffif she was clearly the one in the line for succession per her father and that was the only legitimate marriage and she the only legitimate child? And if there was a revolt by Mary’s loyalists against Elizabeth, would she had put her sister in prison and convicted her, and executed her like she did her cousin, Mary Queen of Scots? Or would she have shown her sister, the same Mercy as Mary In fact showed to Elizabeth? I think we all know the answer it would’ve been “off with my sisters head.”

@bpax7119 Год назад

According to cannon law at the time permitted age of marriage for women was 12. It was very usually but it happen in the young teens. Henry VII’s mother was married at 12 and by 13 was widowed and a mother. Her family promptly married her off again. She never had more kids likely as a trauma from labor at such a young age. When the ambassador mentioned Mary wouldn’t be ready for marriage a few years what he was physically able to get pregnant and give birth.

@reverie6034 Год назад

Katherine of Aragon was never going to go down without a fight. She was the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella and was raised to be a queen. Even if Mary had sided with Henry she still would have ended up illegitimate because Rome would never agree to an annulment of her parents’ marriage because Katherine would never have agreed to that. Mary sided with her mother to keep her faith and the only parent she had a chance of retaining a relationship with. Mary couldn’t be married within England as she was a Catholic rallying point for civil war and she couldn’t be married outside England as her faith and her husbands faith would have presented England with an equal existential crisis. She was significantly more dangerous to Henry married than single. Even after Edward’s death, without a husband, she rallied troops and took the throne by force. It all loops back to Katherine’s absolute conviction that she was the rightful Queen of England and Henrys obsession over a male heir. Mary’s parents’ deadlock, which was unavoidable, destroyed her life. I think she’s one of the most tragic figures in history. The only thing in my mind that could have saved her is if Katherine had produced a male heir that outlived Henry.

@urbino79 Год назад

Dr Kat, what if Henry’s younger brother Edmund Tudor or even his great uncle Jasper Tudor had kids. Would Henry have made sure that their heirs married Mary, hence continuing the Tudor dynasty or would Henry have continued to seek a divorce?

@GarnetButterfly Год назад

I think Henry would’ve gotten the divorce still. It wasn’t truly about only having a daughter as his legitimate heir but about Henry’s own ego and fragile masculinity. Louis XII was in the same boat, His only child was a daughter, Claude. His solution was to marry her to their cousin Francis I and have them succeed him. Henry had numerous nephews- Mary and Charles Brandon had two sons born before Henry’s “Great Matter”. Margaret had one son. He could’ve wed Mary to her cousin and solved the succession issue but he didn’t.

@Natalie_11188 Год назад

Also, Henry VII’s claim to the throne came through conquest and his maternal line (Margaret Beaufort). Thus Henry 8th couldn’t include the dependents of his uncles (brothers of his father) in the royal succession.

@memyselfi8461 Год назад

My day always gets so much better knowing Dr. Kat will be uploading another masterpiece. Wonderfully brilliant job once again Dr. Kat!!! ❤😊🎉

@danielsantiagourtado3430 Год назад

Yeah, Mary was a squandered chance and she could have had a large and happy family

@johnguglielmini6658 Год назад

i highly doubt that

@HattieMcDanielonaMoon Год назад

@@johnguglielmini6658 We'll never know

@LaSirenaSaggia Год назад

Thank you for helping people see beyond the usual reductive troupes to the fraught & complex circumstances & choices of these iconic individuals! So comprehensive and thought provoking, and you always honor their humanity too. We are very lucky to have you, Dr. Kat!☺️

@amberkirk8574 Год назад

I just saw your beautiful photos in royal garb! You are beautiful in Grey and blue! I was excited to recognize you!!

@loralouise3865 Год назад

Dr. Kat, Tudor history has always fascinated me since I was in primary school. It’s just so awesome that there is so much information and are so many programs and channels that cover this period of history. I’m always so happy to see another one of your videos and you have the ability to make your audience feel like they are right there with you in a special class and I just love how you make me feel so welcome! You are one of my favorite people on RU-vid that presents some very interesting ideas about my favorite periods in history taking place in my favorite part of the world. Thanks so much for what you bring to us, your subscribers with your education, expertise and your warm welcome!

@steelerbear Год назад

Great video as always, Dr. Kat! ❤

@Myke_OBrien Год назад

Brilliant as always; brava!

@alexrafe2590 Год назад

I think it’s a matter of timing. If Catherine had agreed to an annulment as had at first been proposed to her, and Mary had thus retained her legitimacy when she was still quite young, the situation would have been very different. Henry could have continued to look for a husband for his legitimate daughter, and all the benefits that still held. He could have gone ahead with his marriage to Anne, several years earlier than they ultimately did, when she was younger and possibly more easily able to become pregnant and Henry more able to sire a son. Or he could even have considered returning to the international marriage market himself and married any number of young fertile princesses. He wouldn’t have had to stress out about breaking with Rome, which he had earlier shown himself to be very faithful to. Think about the implications of that? No massive dissolution of the monasteries. Very probably no break with Rome, and all the ramifications for the future of the country. I think under those circumstances, assuming he was able to produce male heirs, then I think his reign would have probably been much less turbulent than it actually went on to be. If he still came up short in terms of male heirs that might have complicated matters. But not necessarily going on to produce the same results. After all there weren’t nearly as many potential brides with uncles (or nephews) as formidable on the international stage as the hugely powerful Holy Roman Emperor and King Of Spain. Especially if Henry went on and married Princess Mary into the Habsburg family. If another bride proved as barren as Catherine he might have been able to annul his marriage with her as well. Just as Eleanor’s first husband the King of France had also done when his second wife proved no better at producing sons than his first wife had. Of course Eleanor had the last laugh as after she left Louis she went on to have son after son after son with Henry II. Revenge is a dish best served cold😏

@marniekilbourne608 Год назад

That was pretty funny as regards to Eleanor's pregnancy history. I'm sure he was furious. They'd all be angrier if they knew that the male contribution determines the gender of the child NOT the female. His previous wives did all have boys but pregnancies so often miscarried or the baby did not live long. Henry's oldest legitimate son only lived to 15. I think his illegitimate son died fairly young as well. But the reason or rather one of her very good reasons was that if Katherine had given Henry what he wanted right away, Mary would then be a bastard legally. Also, Katherine was in no way barren! She gave birth to 6 children and who knows how many miscarriages she had. There was simply not a high child survival rate and the death of the woman during or after pregnancy happened often. Just like a woman a man's ability to father a child becomes less with age. It is just sooner for most women given it being more complex for them. But Henry's sperm count was going down and you never know what else may have been going on. I always got the feeling that he either rarely or maybe never consummated his marriage with Catherine Parr. It seemed like he was more resigned at that point of only having one son. He was just looking more for a companion on the last marriage and I think a mother figure for his daughters.

@alexrafe2590 Год назад

@@marniekilbourne608 yes I agree, but for Henry he would have seen the result as having been the same, i.e., no living male heirs. Certainly he was wrong about Leviticus, where the signal of God’s displeasure was thought to be the survival of no living children of either gender. However, I don’t understand your reference to Mary being illegitimate if Henry had succeeded in having a surviving son. Or did you mean something else when you wrote that if she quickly gave him what he wanted, Mary would have been illegitimate? But that doesn’t make sense in terms of Mary retaining her legitimacy, because in that era the Church agreed to allow children of an annulled union to retain their legitimacy. That’s what happened when Eleanor of Aquitaine agreed to annul her marriage with the King of France. They had two daughters, but France didn’t allow daughters to inherit the throne so Louis approached the Church about an annulment and it was granted and the daughters remained legitimate. I read a book about Catherine’s difficulties with having children robust enough to survive infancy, and the writer suggested that it was probably due in part to the harsh regime of fasting and long hours of prayer in chapel and self scourging Catherine engaged in to appease God for her sins that many devout Catholics subjected themselves to in this era. He indicated that in her conversations with the Spanish ambassador he advised her to lay off her self punishing behaviours to improve her chances of producing a living heir.

@nancytestani1470 8 месяцев назад

Right on

@LenaFerrari 6 месяцев назад

That makes sense, however I understand Katherine's refusal. She would loose to much, and there's no guarantee her daughter would stay legitimate

@alexrafe2590 6 месяцев назад

@@LenaFerrari I can see Katharine’s side too, but not completely for the reasons you give. It’s easy for me, someone living centuries later with no emotional stake in the situation to coolly assess what would have been the wisest course of action for someone in her situation. If we could all run our lives calmly and rationally in even the most trying times, no doubt we’d all end up better off, but that’s much easier said than done. She was a member of the most prestigious and powerful royal family in Europe. The aunt of a monarch ruling over more of Europe than any other going back to that other famous Charles known as the Great. So facing the humiliation of being set aside would have likely been harder for her than most. And she came from a family that could love deeply. Her elder sister Juana even refused to let death separate her from her handsome husband. So I can understand why agreeing to give up her husband that she had never stopped loving to the bitter end, ‘my eyes desire thee above all things,’ so that he could marry her former lady in waiting from a family she would have considered far beneath him - and her. It would have been a particularly bitter pill to swallow. But I don’t agree at all that concern for her daughter would have been a factor in her decision. It was the actions that she did take that led to the ugly reactions of Henry and his hard treatment of Mary. She was undeniably an intelligent woman. I’m sure one thing she learned from living with her husband was that his motivation for his actions were generally to benefit himself. That’s why he offered her the option of retiring to a religious contemplative life. It would have made things so much easier and less disruptive. It would have kept the scandal to a minimum. And it would have left his daughter’s position unchanged, which thus left her a much more valued pawn to him in the politics of 16th century England than bastardising her ultimately did. She was at that point also his only living heir and he showed every sign of loving his daughter. She was also a first cousin to the aforementioned greatest monarch in Europe at the time. Not someone you’d go out of your way to piss off for no good reason. He was the only male left from a newly minted dynasty with rather obscure roots. So unless he was a complete fool, I don’t think he would after Katharine agreed to retire to a convent, turn around and declare his daughter and only living heir (and cousin to Charles V) a bastard for no apparent reason. Especially, as Henry knew well, living in an age when death could come suddenly and unexpectedly for anyone from the highest to the lowest echelons of society the value of holding on to as many members of your family as possible. And for Katharine herself, I think she must have realised, if not at the beginning, then certainly as he heaped ever greater humiliations on her and Mary as the stand off continued that if her high stakes gamble did not pan out she stood a very good chance of her situation ending up much worse than it would have done if she had agreed to Henry’s original offer.

@Ets638 Год назад

You are so wonderful. I’m sorry I was busy but caught the end and will re-watch. Thank you!

@elizabethspedding1975 Год назад

I been looking forward to this.❤

@skiker4560 Год назад

Awe…I love your videos Dr. Kat. Thank you so much.

@historybuff7491 Год назад

I have no doubt if Mary had had a child, or children, during Henry's life; he would have pampered that child the way he use to pamper Mary when she was young... the way he pampered Fitzroy. How that child, even a son, would figure into the succession has too many variables to make a conclusion.

@mmmuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiirrrrr Год назад

I'm really looking forward to this one!

@ingridgeertsema4302 Год назад

One of the best questions ever I think - thank you for talking about it!!

@monicafiore20 Год назад

What a great topic! I really enjoyed listening! You have a great channel ❤

@MelfinatheBlue Год назад

🥰 and I pimped this video and your channel (because your videos are always fascinating and I enjoy them)!

@kaitsheewarrior-princess8851 19 дней назад

I really enjoy your videos and your take on the subject. really interesting thank you

@elainemaclellan2425 Год назад

Interesting and thought provoking as usual Dr Kat. Thank you!

@anissaferringer4965 Год назад

Oooooo, looking forward to this 🎉

@julzy3 Год назад

Thank you, Dr. Kat, for a thought provoking video as well as fun and lively chat! I was just teasing with the Harold Godwinson comment. 😁

@tracieivey2397 Год назад

I think that Henry, well known for holding a grudge, dismissed Mary's importance being that she was female as well as still harbored resentment towards her mother for not agreeing to the divorce, and so perhaps the thought of any possibility of Catherine's bloodline assuming the throne in any means would be abhorrent to him.

@xajaso Год назад

Another great video! Wonder why I never thought about these questions? So interesting. Thanks for the discussion.

@annfisher3316 Год назад

Dr Kat, your informative and intriguing videos always illicit such interesting discussions in the comments. You truly have a gift for imparting historical knowledge. Thank you, may you and your family have a wonderful weekend. ✌

@jinxedfates Год назад

dr kat i just want to thank you for consistently being a bright spot in my day and a font of knowledge

@user-bw4lm8ee2m Год назад

Hi Kat, that was amazing. Although I have subscribed to your channel for over a year that was the first time I had ever sent a comment and was only expecting a written responce. So to get a whole programme and so quickly was amazing. Thanks for all your time and work on preparing it and you have definitly answered my question. Thanks Robyn

@katharineharrison9091 Год назад

👑loved the history lesson

@Kiki_CraftsUk Год назад

I do love your videos. The Tudor are by far my most fascinating dynasty.

@lynnedelacy2841 Год назад

Well argued and thought provoking

@retired_early Год назад

Great content but aside from that you look STUNNING today!! Thanks for this

@Innovertraining Год назад

❤ I always love listening to your videos. You bring a perspective that is unique and sensitive to the Tudor culture. As far as good old Henry allowing Mary’s children in the succession, I doubt he would have. He was hell-bent on his own son that he didn’t look any other way. Poor Mary got caught up in the king’s great matter and then the King’s insistence over Mary’s acceptance of his rule of the church that he barely paid any attention to a marriage for her. I don’t think he really cared. He was so self-centered.

@sewwithmsjones1196 Год назад

Very thought-provoking!

@Phoenix-616 Год назад

Honestly, with only one male heir, I can see why Henry wouldn’t want to marry her off. All he has to do is look at his first in-laws to see how that could go.

@nichola607 Год назад

Love your vids❤

@nancytestani1470 8 месяцев назад

All three of Henry’s children were formidable learners, Elizabeth was precocious gifted learner. She was an amazing gifted woman and queen. What amazes me that with all the turmoil Henry gave his kids that they were seriously upset when they found out Henry died.

@Voronochka262 11 месяцев назад

It still boggles my mind, some of Henry VIII's wives being super close in age to Mary

@TJ-gm2uy 2 месяца назад

Why does that boggle your mind? Men often replace their wife with a younger model even today😂

@timriehl1500 Год назад

I am interested in knowing when (or about when) heirs to the throne and their siblings stopped being sent off to be reared in their own, separate residences. Was it with the Hanovers? Or was it only in "modern" times that royal families stayed together (relatively speaking) in the manner of "regular" families?

@travisjoyce4678 Год назад

This is one of the most fantastic resources for English history on the web. Thank you for all you do. Dr. Kat (sp?)

@lisalightner8068 10 месяцев назад

Very interesting and thorough discussion of a subject rarely covered. I would only add that the thought of another man’s child on his throne would have been abhorrent to a king so obsessed with paternity. In a pinch, the children of his favourite sister and closest friend were preferred to all others.

@nancytestani1470 8 месяцев назад

Gorgeous portrait..with the black velvet sleeves

@IsaBelle1 Год назад

I have a hard time imagining Henry VIII ever letting Mary marry a foreign Catholic ruler. There would be such a danger of that country then invading England in hopes of replacing Henry VIII himself with his daughter or grandson (if she gave birth to a legitimate son).

@prof.cecilycogsworth3204 Год назад

Thanks!

@veryberry39 Год назад

"Charles is in the center of this family portrait" gurl, anyone who knows anything about history could pick that jaw out of a Where's Waldo book. 😅

@ReadingthePast Год назад

‘Tis a fair point 😂

@kdcats4092 Год назад

While speculating, could we get a video that speculates on how different the UK may have been if one of the Kings who gained the throne through war had actually lost. Following what happened to the family of a former ruler.who was deposed as if he had retained the throne? I have seen videos following the line of former monarchies, but often they seem to bend the rules of inheritance to come upon people who have a history of making public claims of their importance.

@debbralehrman5957 10 месяцев назад

Thanks Dr. Kat for this possible reasons for her not being married off as many had been. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👑

@shelleygibbons1065 9 месяцев назад

Excellent

@margaretschembridalli5218 Год назад

She may have come down to us as Bloody Mary, but I find myself pitying her and I feel life has really been cruel to her. Everything went wrong for her: being born in the wrong gender, always a pawn never a bride till it was too late, watching her beloved mother humiliated, one day an heir the next a bastard, cuckolded and nature tricking her motherhood was on its way when in fact she was dying of cancer. She lived hell on earth and this must have thwarted her image of the world around her. Damaged goods indeed. Was she ever happy? Please tell me she was.

@toniomalley5661 Год назад

Hi just tried to go back and watch some of your older videos and can only go back as far as 7 months ago am I doing something wrong love all your videos

@Mamaki1987 Год назад

If Mary had had a son during Henrys lifetime I am sure he would have done everything he could have to get his hands on him, just in case. And to get this son away from Marys influence. If she had married in England that is.

@kathrynmast916 Год назад

I agree with Dr. Kat. Henry was on a mission for a son to rule after him and he wouldn’t want to see a child fathered by a foreign prince/ruler. 😊

@kathleengray6639 Год назад

I love your lectures! I always felt like Princess Mary was thrown under the bus! I think Henry missed out on making good decision on making a "good" marriage for Mary. Don't forget he had that terrible accident while jousting. It was said his horse fell on his head, I believe it could have caused brain damage. I just signed up for the History Hit channel. thanks for the discount

@Jami-Frankie 10 месяцев назад

I believe Henry was a sociopath. His treatment of Mary (during his marriage to Ann) was seriously cold blooded.

@khaleesi8266 Год назад

Dr. Kat, I have been watching your content for a while now, and I find you to always be thorough in how you cover tudor history. ❤ I have a genuine question I'm hoping you can answer. Google searches only refer to the Mary Queen of Scots. Apparently, it doesn't recognize the difference between her and Mary I of England. Here's my question: Did Mary I ever have a death mask? If so, where is it now, and why is it never covered by historians? If not, why? They made death masks of almost all her relatives as far as I can tell. Why would her contemporaries neglect her in this way?

@bethwilliams4760 Год назад

A very interesting video.

@elizabethsands4470 Год назад

My son at 29 is a doctor of mathematics ... he just adored Turing ❤

@Elvertaw Год назад

It always astonishes me that Henry was so self absorbed. His drive for a son domed his daughters. It’s also a window into how he felt about women in general. But again, if Henry hadn’t been a wanker the Golden Age would not have happened. I have a question that’s not quite relevant. When did English Kings take up the title of King of France and when and why did this stop? I’d really be interested in a video on this.

@irasoso32 Месяц назад

If Henry had truly cared about the succession, he would have gotten Reginald Pole released from his vows and had him marry Mary -- in the late 1520s or early 1530s. When made heiress, Elizabeth was a "two strike loser" (age and gender against her) whereas Mary was only a "one strike loser" (gender only). Pole was English (foreign domination not a problem); he had Yorkist blood (reducing factionalism, since he was royal and most of the nobility were not) and, if it happened during Henry's lifetime, there would not be the problems of a queen regnant marrying a subject (that she, as wife, would owe him an obedience that he as subject should owe to her). This would have given him a "second string to his bow"

@marniekilbourne608 Год назад

Possibly if she had sons or if Elizabeth had sons. Neither Henry nor his surviving son, Edward, wanted a woman on the throne. The few examples from the past were not really long lived or successful. They did not hold the view that a woman was capable (shocker) of doing the job as anything other than consort. Edward had to add Jane Gray, in his device for the succession, at the last minute, because he originally had only Jane's future sons or "heirs male" as his successor. He felt he couldn't follow his father's wishes as it came to Mary because he did not want to return to Catholicism. I'm not sure why he didn't just pass it to Elizabeth. He had no existing males to choose near the end so he went with Jane because he wanted to keep the country from Catholicism. I imagine, like his father, he was certain he would have a son or at least who he was putting on the throne would have male heirs. But at crunch time their we no male heirs. I can see him ignoring his father's wishes because Mary was as Catholic but I don't know what made him not pass it to Elizabeth. Or think before he involved young Jane who didn't want to be Queen at all. She wasn't on his father's list of successors.

@purplepassion26 9 месяцев назад

I agree that Mary was more useful as a potential bride than an actual bride. As time went on Henry was confused about what to do with her. I believe he regreted divorcing her Mother Catherine.

@DarthDread-oh2ne 8 месяцев назад

I disagree. I don't think Henry was confused by what to do with Mary, I think he just wanted her to remain sexless, because any children by her would be A threat and not True Tudors.

@LetsBitchAboutit Год назад

Hi dr Kate I absolutely adore ur channel I have a question in regard to the dates you give to events, I was wandering if the dates are the dates given at the time or have been updated to Aline with the Gregorian calendar, which in 1582 was a ten day difference to Julian calendar so I’m just curious if an event on 2may would have happened on the 12 in theory I’m just curious love to know ur thoughts as I can’t seem to find the answer on my own Lots of love

@jpr455 Год назад

I do wonder what might have happened if Henry had looked for a diplomatic marriage when it became clear that Catherine of Aragorn could no longer have children?🎉 If Henry had not been besotted with Anne Boleyn but had negotiated a marriage with someone acceptable to CharlesV, then Charles could have put pressure on Catherine to step aside. If Catherine had agreed to enter a convent and become a nun, I think Henry could have been free to marry again, while Mary would have remained legitimate. Catherine might have been more amenable to stepping aside if Henry was marrying for duty, rather than lust. It's all conjecture of course. Henry was at heart a spoiled child, so he convinced himself that what he wanted was always the best course for the country.

@matthewhart9610 Год назад

He did try multiple times to marry diplomatically. In his youth, Marguerite of Angouleme was offered. After the death of Jane Seymour, he wanted to marry Christina of Denmark, Charles V's niece, and then Maria of Portugal, one of his other nieces. Renee of France, the daughter of Louis XII and sister-in-law of Francis I was also considered at one point. Most of Europe was Catholic and didn't like the Dissolution going on in England and Henry's treatment of previous wives soured his reputation all over Europe, so a foreign marriage was not going to happen.

@mtyfresa 4 месяца назад

While I understand the concept of forging political and other alliances through marriage of rulers' children, can you point to many long-lasting alliances as a result of arranged marriage? The first that comes to mind is Isabella & Ferdinand (I just suppose they had an arranged marriage) who, by uniting their two kingdoms, created modern Spain. However, I am hard-pressed to think of others. Most alliances crumbled quickly in favor of others. I would be interested to know what Dr. Kat thinks. Maybe a video on the concept behind and successes or losses due to arranged marriages would be interesting.

@archeanna1425 Год назад

I'm trying to remember the medical name of the condition that may have run through the offspring of Jacquetta and would so easily explain Henry's problems with fathering more than one healthy child with each of his mates. It is often confused with Rh incompatibility but is different and seems to show in a number of generations. We can't do blood tests on them now, so we can only consider the chances. Does anyone know if that was equally a problem for male and female offspring? It may have made it impossible for Mary to have healthy children, or maybe only one at most, no matter who she married or at what age. Comments?

@dominaevillae28 Год назад

Kell

@glorialange6446 Год назад

Kell

@ddivar8149 Год назад

On another topic -Ive been watching the Crown and wondering if you could do a video on the disabled cousins of the queen who were shut away -

@allclairesbears Год назад

Based on the previous couple of hundred years I can see why Henry and his advisors were reluctant to marry her off to an English noble. The potential for civil war to break out again would have been real to him. BUT I wonder how much of what came after could have been avoided if Henry had just done that.

@karensilvera6694 10 месяцев назад

You and I talked about this exact episode as well as Elizabeth not being provided a husband. Thank you for expanding on it. I can see where religion was a very big factor.

@marylarson1874 Год назад

At the time of Anberlin, Henry was getting increasingly increasingly mentally unstable, and it’s hard to decide what was actually going through his mind regarding his daughter, Mary he probably felt very defiant towards her, considering how close she was to her mother. I did send a bird flags to me when it was noticed at 11 years of age she was still very very thin, which leads me to believe that she was not starting to bloom any femininity at that time the cause of her reproductive problems could’ve started around that time, she may have been able to bear a child or two, but not without difficulty in my opinion Henry was so self absorbed that he left Mary by the wayside, I believe Elizabeth to fill out a favor with Henry, and maybe this was his way of showing how he was unhappy with them with Elizabeth and Mary by not caring about whether they were married off or not

@cathyrogers9276 Год назад

I have always been curious who her brother was thinking of marrying. There were not many protestant countries from which he could choose a bride.

@kellyolson1952 Год назад

Judging by what I know of Henry Vlll he was very controlling of the women he married and any scandal (and certainly not bearing a son would have been seen at the time and by him as a scandal) of any kind. Perhaps that extended to his daughters Mary and Elizabeth as well. Perhaps he only viewed them as pawns, as political chess pieces, to get what he wanted at the moment and used them as it suited him and to marry them off would have meant losing bargaining chips. Even if both girls were deemed illegitimate, they were daughters of a king and that had clout and caché.