Privatisation of the NHS: Allyson Pollock at TEDxExeter 

You'll often here talk of "efficiecy". People will argue that these small private firms can do the job more efficiently. In isolation that might (or not) be correct. What they don't talk about though is continuity of care. Does it matter if my scan was done much quicker if when I return to the hospital they don't even have a copy of it? That's what happened to my wife and my experience of bouncing around these little private bodies. The continuity of care degrades and the failure demand in the system increases. This setup nearly cost my wife her life.

No. They have sub-contracted a service, like the doctors, nurses.

The woman is an absolute diamond. She's still fighting to this day.

The piece was from 2014 . That's why she mentioned David Owen ..

me

Because she is a truth speaker

2014 wasn't that far away

It is Still the future

You are right about that ...

If the NHS is saved most won't notice..but if it is privatised everyone will and it will be too late. They'll just wail how did this happen whilst being proud lifelongTory voters

@@zeinabadam958 Most of mankind are losing the capacity to think. That's how they'll become slaves to our ultimate enemies. It's called being cattle.

@@farazchoudhry3560 truth!!

@@zeinabadam958 Unfortunately yes, and even after the NHS is lost - the war will still be on to get it back.

It is one listening to this what are the people going to accept!!

kaaa111 because the uncomprehending Brits re elected Tory government whose policies are against their interests.

@@Whitesilver1970 Yep and now insist on voting Labour in come the GE even though Keith the Kid Starver has the same interests of that which are Tory.

But now, ironically, he had to rely on NHS doctors and nurses to save his life. Hopefully, this will affect him enough that even he realises that pursuing a course that is destructive for the NHS will get him in *serious* trouble.

@@pineapplepenumbra Nope. Nothing. Not even a dent from him to think "Oh, maybe I should care for the NHS before the route it's going down is finished" I really don't want to live in a prospect that the NHS is no more. Free healthcare should be simple.

@@alice1374 Obviously I completely agree with you. Since then I've learnt that one of my ex pupils worked with him and said that he was disorganised and simply didn't listen properly (no surprise there). I'm glad that you replied as I had forgotten about this comment, and hadn't noticed that I had typed "replied" rather than "relied" in the original post.

Cos it's factually incorrect? I jest. I is factually incorrect, and economically illiterate (Keynesian, I presume), but the reason is because Rihanna exists, and is more interesting than this matter.

Matthew Hayden I think Rhianna is substantially less interesting by orders of magnitude.

kr050 And yet nobody else is saying the same thing as your or +1 -ing your comment... So Rihanna beats the NHS yet again. Foiled at every turn!

I had an argument on Boris Johnson's web page over NHS privatisation today, where Rhianna did not come up once... :)

Matthew John Hayden dim witted people find Rihanna interesting

Yep same here. That's main reason ppl do not want to migrate abroad 2 a country with more sea and sunshine.

same here

The US pays literally double that of the most expensive European country for its "health service". It's there to make money, and that is why it's so inefficient. However, one good thing that might come out of the current coronavirus crisis is that there is now more focus on the NHS than ever. IF the government persist in selling off the NHS there may well be a revolution. Those MPs supporting a US system of ripping off the public would be hanged from lamposts.

@@pineapplepenumbra should but would?

@@QueerPolitics I know, right?

Theflowoflove have you ever met a junior doctor, or a bunch of them? They are insufferable assholes!

More recent reports suggest that it's "only" $1.5 trillion...

Maybe you were thinking of what's held in other tax havens as well?

ChrisColtBJJ you better pray you won't ever need their help until the day you take your final breath

pineapplepenumbra yeah they serve the same purpose just in different locations

its free prescriptions and wage increases in Scotland along with using the most expensive drugs that caused some of this, they demanded prescription to be free in Scotland then voted for Englands to rise, so England pay more and Scotland nothing, when if everyone paid in we could all pay 80% less on every prescription. . Learn some facts before talking foolish words.

you are independent and abusing Englands services and not paying in, NHS wages raised to insane levels free haleth prescriptions, woke funding and you abused the prescription drugs costs for trans treatment that cost zero unless you live in England which pays all prescription drug charges and they get lower nurse wages and closed down because they cant afford to cover Scotland. Get Scottish independce you would have no NHS or free prescriptions, no british airways because you depend on England trade and would have to make your own NHS which wouldnt give you free prescriptions, but it would make our NHS costs go down. You dont get it do you, you have no idea what happened do you?

Nearly all local surgeries are privately owned. Nearly all GPs are independent contractors.

Yep. Next once the NHS is gone destroy the welfare state so many depend upon. Great idea Tories.

things change

How is it going

if you guys vote yes, it will be easier for the conservatives to get elected :(

ichigo199 Simply not true. Scottish votes have only twice influenced who was in power in the UK since world war II. Also it would be extremely arrogant to stay in the UK to force a Labour administration onto the rUK when the majority there voted Tory. Finally if the rUK does not want a Tory govt, they don't need to vote Tory. Scots shouldn't stay in the Union because of pity for the rUK, the rUK needs to stand on their own two feet and accept the political choices they make.

i know i know...your right,us english need to sort ourselves out and get rid of the neoliberal parasites who run parliament

ichigo199 My big hope is that with a Yes vote, Scotland will lead the way for the rUK nations to take back their democracy and we can all build together a more equal set of island nations for the people and not the elites. A No vote will just endorse the failure that the UK has become and show Westminster and the Lords that they can do what they want and no-one will stand against them.

I agree. I’m English, and I think that the Scots should go simply to have a chance to stop the insane far-right commodification of life in Britain. Now, Scotland will face its own problems and share of corrupt politicians. There will be neoliberals who need to be stopped. However, as a separate nation you may be able to combat the stampede to the right in a way which you simply will not in a UK with a corporate owned government.

What will the targets be? And what will the competitor's targets be? And what will the relationship be if the patients are themselves paying?

The quality of services should be the target, not some empty points and money

Perhaps you misunderstand me. Surely those setting targets should be a health team and the patient they treat... Isn't the supposed to be a contractual relationship?

Sorry dear Matthew, I meant no offense to anyone and there is no misunderstanding. Is just my personal point of view upon the relation in the NHS today,

Matthew Hayden There's a fundamental conflict here that makes the idea that the patient is a 'customer contracting services' totally inappropriate, naive, and, quite frankly, bullshit. e.g. USA: You go to your doc for a check up. He makes money out of that. He tells you you're ill and need a scan. He makes more money out of that than saying you are well. He says, in fact, you'd better have a bunch of tests too, 'just to be sure'. He makes more money the more tests he asks for. He says you could have the normal way of doing it but you could have new and much more expensive treatment X. He makes more money out of that, as do his buddies who make expensive treatment X who give him discounts for recruiting patients. You go home better and hope you can stay well enough over the the next 5 years to pay off the treatment. You, as the patient, have no way of telling whether any of this is the truth or not; and the Doctor has all sorts of incentives to give you bad advice. Well known examples of unnecessary, dangerous, over-used and expensive tests - CT Scans; and 'new and expensive but no more effective' treatments - robotic surgery. UK: You go to your doc for a check up. He gets paid to do that already. He says you're ill and need a scan. He doesn't make money of that. He says, but you don't need all these other tests because this one is risky and that one would expose you unnecessarily to ionizing radiation. He doesn't get paid for that because he's been paid already. He says, well there is this expensive treatment, but actually this cheap one is just as good, so let's use that one. He saves money which allows more people to be treated for the same cost and is thus much more efficient. You go home better in the same financial state as before and if you're unlucky and get ill again you don't need to worry. This is *precisely* how the US system is exploitative; why it is so expensive; and why it is also less effective, and why patients cannot be treated like informed consumers. And why any other country would be completely insane to follow the US system. Which is what the video is about.

By no way is the NHS ‘perfect’ but and I don’t care who runs the NHS, whether that be government or a private organisation, but as long as it’s ‘free’ and ‘affordable’ Unfortunately the reason I don’t agree with the US system is because I don’t believe people should have to ‘pay’ for a basic human right, especially to insurance companies. Also its funny how no one ever questions why the fire brigade isn’t set up in the same way, why don’t you have a privatised fire insurance?

@@dans3955 said, ".....funny how no one ever questions why the fire brigade isn’t set up in the same way, why don’t you have a privatised fire insurance?..." I do believe that actually used to be the case at on point in history :)

@@WhoAmEye_WhoAreEwe Yep, saw a video explaining it not too long back. Was interesting to see. You had to have a fire mark on your building or they wouldn't prioritise you.

Stephen Robson Evidence please

Money, money, money - it's all about the money. The NHS is not.

Stephen Robson You have been looking at old data. If you read the paper on privatisation in Sweden by Goran Dahlgren you will see why this is a complete disaster. Also have a look at the data from the Commonwealth Fund which places the UK system first in the developed world. I work with US patients, and their system is a car crash. Other countries are being bullied out of their Beverage systems, in return for funding. Nobody has seen a slightest hint of improvement - quite the opposite, as a little bit of common sense would tell you. A private system which has to put (and pay) the bosses and shareholders first by law, and can go crying to lawyers and cite commercial confidentiality at the slightest hint that something is wrong is bound to take billions away from the coal face of actual healthcare. There will be more deaths, and more botched ops The latest privateer firm botched 2/3rds, and some people were irretrevably blinded, but the public will not get to hear about this soon, as we switch completely to private. Our regulaters are too scared of their legal teams (see the latest CQC report on this re care homes - an 80's attempt to show that privatisation works to bring savings, efficiencies and improvements- that panned out well for the public, didn't it??). This is the system we are all (UK and the EU) being harmonised to. Harmonisation is the favourite euphemism of privatisers but it simply means downgraded to the LCD. It is sad so many are unaware, and also unaware of how this will be locked in by TTIP, which is why all European systems are switching over, and have been for some years. Since the UK is first in all categories but one, and did quite well on that one, why do people want to pay money for an inferior system? And we are the CHEAPEST in the developed world!! So much disinformation seems to be circulating.

Stephen Robson You have not explained how we can "forget the USA" when our advisors and theirs are involved in an ever revolving door of opportunity, when we are being harmonised to their model by TTIP, and when all those cosy models in Europe you are talking about are also being Americanised against the wishes of their populations. As for Australia, they have lost their model too, thanks to the Trans Pacific Partnership harmonisation and are actually demonstrating in their thousands. As for your view of the Commonwealth Fund, they took a whole three years to collate their replies from thousand people or so? Might the other years have been to do with the research from the WHO and OECD? Many of the results were determined from findings in Commonwealth Fund surveys undertaken with both patients and clinicians, supplemented by outcomes data from the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). I am afraid there is an awful lot of data - have you actually read it? Please tell me all about your up to date data (on what)? I have quoted actual academic papers, is this beyond you? Of course data collected in the last 2 or 3 years (the commonwealth fund data is from 2011 before privatisation really took off) is actually showing the deterioration due to privatisation, so producing it might not be in your best interests. You are the people who promised faithfully you would not reorganise the NHS, who swore that the disabled were exempt from the bedroom tax, and who still expect us to believe we will be so muich better paying lots of money to shareholders against all the statistics and data that independent academics produce. Accusations of scaremongering are your favourite tactics when you know you are in the wrong. The more you accuse, the more we know we are working on the right lines....Reality - the real data on the costs of denationalisation of health systems, trumps your fantasies. Have you seen the data for the increase in corruption for example? The head of NHS privatisation for Peterborough (well that is how residents think of him, despite the fancy title) is a prime example - has he been extradited to Canada for fraud yet yet? I think you need to look at the hard facts, and stop quoting one single solitary Irishman who had obviously had a few too many. You won't meet many people in the UK who have not had a run in with an insurance system - and been refused funding because they forgot to declare a cold when they were two and three quarters, or some such trivial reason. The service and efficiency are superlative - for the boss and the shareholders interests, not the public.

Stephen Robson The UK has lower rates of years of life lost due to road injury, diabetes, liver cancer and chronic kidney disease compared to the western average. The UK now has some of the most stringent anti-tobacco legislation in Europe. And while tobacco-related diseases were the highest cause of death, this could be the result of historical trends rather than current failings in UK healthcare.The use of tobacco peaked after the second world war and did not begin to drop significantly until after the 1970s, so, the high number of deaths we are seeing now could be the result of the smoking habits of teenagers during the 1970s, who went on to be life-long smokers, taking their toll. Hopefully, tobacco-related deaths should begin to significantly fall in the years to come. Alzheimer’s is a disease of ageing, so as life expectancies increase due to improvement in public health, so would rates of Alzheimer’s be expected to increase. It would be lower in countries with lower longevity. Drink and drug abuse’ is ‘pushing Britain down world death table’, and mental and behavioural conditions including substance misuse were a major cause of YLD (years lived with disability) in the UK in 2010. Finally there may be differences in how each country classifies the causes of a death and how a country collects health data, which could affect results. Therer is also a lack of data for some diseases or injuries in particular countries (such as sensory conditions). I have studied the US data on cancer for example, but this is unreliable because people who are uninsured are not actually autopsied to find out the cause of death. I have actually argued that older women should be screened for breast cancer (it mostly occurs in pensioners, despite the headlines to the contrary), but was told it was "too expensive", despite monies being made available to pay the huge PFI debts. Another example of the private sector skewing the system. Mental and behavioural conditions are prevalent in countries with wide inequality gaps - lots of good data available to show on this. No wonder the US and UK came at the bottom, as it tracks their inequality gap ratios. We could continue to argue about how good or bad the NHS is, but that has nothing to do with the costs of privatisation, and how it leaches money from actual healthcare. Please now let me have the data supporting your arguments (I have quoted my sources) and your thinking on how loss of transparency and accountability in a privatised healthcare system will make things safer, (see the CQC on how they are afraid of being sued) plus how paying for shareholders (and managers and company bosses), who are obliged by law to have their interests put before patients, will actually make for a better system given a finite amount of funding. You also have not refuted my arguments on corruption, nor explained your thinking around how CETA and TTIP will affect EU systems. What is wrong with defending the NHS against those who want to put huge chunks of taxpayers money in their own pockets. Can you point to a single privatisation where we the taxpayer, have actually seen a cheaper and better service? Foreign public companies are now raking huge profits from utilities we once owned ourselves, and private companies are a proven sick joke. Where we have got value for money from the sale? As I said, the 80's privatisation of care has been a real triumph. Even the current government admits it is a shambles!!

They voted against devolution,they manipulated the votes in 2014,and they told you take your country back,with a big lie on a red bus. Britain/England.!!

People are only cannon fodder for the forces.

Free healthcare in prison!

pete cresswell w

Likewise. Serious heart attack, tain stroke, major operation, plastic spare parts and on medication for the rest of my life. Two years ago I was diagnosed with High Grade Lymphoma Cancer, surgery and tumours debulked. Followed by Chemo and Radio Therapy.

My mum, who's in her early fifties, suffered with a severe curvature in her spine caused by scoliosis for many years of her life. She eventually had an operation, funded by the NHS, which corrected the curvature in her spine and saved her from all the pain and discomfort she had been experiencing over the years - it also saved her walking. If it weren't for the NHS, she'd now be confined in a wheelchair, only able to move her arms and head. The only way we can save our ever-increasingly privatised NHS is to vote Corbyn/Labour in 2020.

It's fallacious to say the NHS is the sole institution that prevented you and your family from death as this implies no NHS = no healthcare provision. In reality it is just as likely your death would have been averted through healthcare provided by private producers, should the NHS not have existed.

+MrCrippsy99 you are wrong. My whole family and I, in fact my whole community come from working classes and would not be able to afford private healthcare. Going by the American healthcare system where there is free treatment for the most impoverished...does not in any way equal the care and treatment provided by the NHS. Delays, lack of specialism and refusal of certain procedures on these healthcare plans are a poor second, nay third to our valuable national health system.

+MrCrippsy99 you are wrong. My whole family and I, in fact my whole community come from working classes and would not be able to afford private healthcare. Going by the American healthcare system where there is free treatment for the most impoverished...does not in any way equal the care and treatment provided by the NHS. Delays, lack of specialism and refusal of certain procedures on these healthcare plans are a poor second, nay third to our valuable national health system.

Indeed, - keep our NHS public!

Obama had the health idea,Trump demolished it.

Who is going to pay for it though? Conservatives don't want you to know, because they have D.Trump waiting to take over services now they have won the election

Because people are too deluded and don't believe this is happening.

Your hospitals

The Rothschilds banking cartel made it so that the world wud b 4ever in debt. That was their trick 2 keep people in bondage and servitude 4 life.

No, the problem is the British ruling class, which has always despised how they were forced to create the NHS by communists and other working class militants, and have endeavored to undermine and destroy it ever since. If/when the workers stop groveling before their oppressors, take matters into their own hands and eliminate these parasites from the equation, the NHS will work like a Swiss fucking watch - mark my words.

shane you are a bit dim, learn a bit

@@JohnnyAmerique Did you just call the creators of NHS the Attlee government communists ?

+MrWhelts This lack of modernisation and opposition to change will probably finish the NHS off.

+PJGSJ 1) It is becoming privatised, bit by bit. 2) The state's duty to meet all your health needs was removed in England in 2012, so services can, and are now, being denied by local expressions of the NHS. Your option is put up or go somewhere else, such as privately if you can afford it. 3) The staff are replaced with cheaper, less qualified staff. This is one point of the currently proposed junior doctors contract. 4) If you have lots of money, you can be over-treated as in the US, since they see you as a source of income. These are a few of the joys of a privatised health service.

+PJGSJ The level of service will increase and you can pay for more hospital builds and cut waiting times, in stead of dumping people in corridors and protecting crappy managers who should be fired! You could fire all the bad managers that think the world owes them a living which is why the bureaucracy is failing just like the BBC.  It's all thanks to socialism that this (£100 billlion) money wasting culture is bankrupting public spending that could go onto clearing dept and spending on education and fixing roads and rail infrastructure, house building, security etc! This is a left wing political foot ball that never pays for itself! Then there's the very obvious tax streme from alcohol and tobacco the loony left doctors attack and then bankrupt the public spending even more!

The fact that there are "managers" (a commercial concept if ever there was one, as if a hospital were an H&M) at all in the NHS, far from being a "socialist" idea, marked the beginning of the Thatcherite marketisation of the NHS.

Have you ever worked for them? I have and I don't see why it should be a free service every other country in the world excluding the us manages the money properly and canada has a far superior system to the usa with no waiting lists.

+silverfox2358 "every other country in the world excluding the us manages the money properly " A strange comment. In many countries, just like the US, those without enough money cannot afford healthcare. Full stop. It is not a free service in the UK. It is a service funded by general taxation. From each according to ability to pay (tax), to each according to (clinical) need.

Privatisation increases costs, because it adds profit to shareholders. Scotland cannot afford to privatise the NHS and neither can England. As for Independence, Scotland must get away from this profligate, wasteful Tory mentality of flogging off everything to the lowest bidder, and like all western societies , work towards eliminating the budget deficit. Getting rid of Trident and the House of Lords would be a good start.

Why does scotland run at a deficit...? And what impact does the block grant scotland recieves from the uk government impact on public services such as the nhs?

Michael Mccreadie One reason Scotland runs a deficit is that we contribute more in taxes and oil revenues than we get back in block grant: basically we are subsidising the rest of the UK. Plus we pay for things like the House of Lords and Trident that have very little relevance to us.

Totally agree with you...thats why I was asking the question why scotland has a deficit in the first place....hope the scottish people wake up and voteyes before all our public services are privatised.

Most Western Governments have been spending more than they have been receiving: the tax dodging of companies like Amazon and Starbucks doesn't help, and we must get much tougher on preventing tax avoidance and tax evasion. There is a thriving grey economy in Scotland, time to get tough!

Exactly. The act didnt go far enough. NHS itself needs to be abolished and have complete privatisation eventually.

@@fatfat1877 Not that. the Act. And the 2022 Act as well. The NHS can be saved but not like this.

who the hell are you? some free market fundementalist?trying to convert people to your extremist religious cult o the free market. a cult that has cost millions their lives

Those are VASTLY more diluted markets than what we're aiming for. We're aiming for the US approach, which actually has the 3rd most expensive healthcare system per capita, and is ironically worst performing out of the 11 most wealthy western countries, where the NHS also came first. Hong Kong and China have bigger populations, which means there are MUCH more human resources available, at a MUCH lower cost. That is the reason why a lot of things in china are so cheap.

By 'diluted' I assume you mean 'free'.

Matthew Hayden No. Because of their vast population, human resources are VERY cheap. That means that prices of everything in general is very cheap in China, so as many people can afford products/services as possible. It also means that the markets are a LOT more diluted, with a lot more choice and HUGE competition, meaning RIDICULOUSLY low prices. This is a result of the availability of human resources at a ridiculously low cost. We would never have enough human resources to create this much competition, without changing the whole infrastructure of our economy. As you can see, modeling ourselves after the US system, which we would basically have to do, and what is proposed anyway; would only exacerbate the service of healthcare, whilst simultaneously making it more expensive. In fact, most countries with similar populations and economies in the western world, have more expensive healthcare systems per capita. data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP?order=wbapi_data_value_2012+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc

charlie marshall Modelling. You make it sound rather glamorous. Not to seem unfair but the UK health system makes healthcare considerably less accessible by using a triage system that, by definition, cannot be armed with sound information about which patients actually most urgently need what. It seems better than it would otherwise because the rest of the UK economy is fairly free and provides the tax revenues that fund the NHS. now you clearly have no problem with top-down funding; which means you have no problem with top-down money-raising; which means you have no problem with forced taxation; which means you have no problem with me being thrown in jail ( and further subsidised by you) for refusing to hand over my money; or you have no problem with the police killing me if I resist in a way which they interpret as dangerous... which means you have no problem with an armed monopoly patrolling the streets and dispensing justice however they see fit... ...so which one of us is the fundamentalist, again?

Nothing, just like every other time the NHS was being " abolished".

Nor do Labour as well. Keith Kid Starver wants to finish it for good. And then you'll have to fork out money for ambulances (much of which many people don't have) this will be an era of great reset where thousands die because they cannot get healthcare.

You talk an absaloute pile of shite ya fool.! You just haven't got a clue, have u? lol. Scotland Is Voting YES. 2014 YES Scotland!.

frontrowa1 well said these no voters will make up any lies they can think of! I just hope they are at the back of the queue when they need a kidney and the NHS is gone!

Scotland was paying for privatized NHS services when SNP got into power (it was started under new Labour). 80M / 11Bn(total NHS Scotland cost) = 0.7% privatized.

frontrowa1 wow you really showed him up with that eloquent reply

Stuart W Thanks Stuart, its all my own work :) vote YES Scotland & flush that arseholes bullshit down the toilet.. once & for all. Then, we can open a window & make sure that stench is gone forever more! :) lol.

Simon, people already can choose to get private healthcare and health insurance anytime they like and have for years, nobody is stopping them, do ask yourself why they don’t.