"When you weaponize an ahistoic, utopian standard you're ensuring yourself ample opportunity to virtue signal. These people don't care about peace; they care about vanity." Why does this comment keep getting deleted?
This is a perfectly logical claim. The more stringent the standard, the more likely it is for someone not to live up to it. If someone wanted to increase their opportunities to reference a moral imperative, they would be better off choosing a stringent one. Why do you keep deleting my comment?
@@hcpalmerdid you just say MLH was an expert on the Israeli Palestine conflict? What a silly take. He is a journalist who lightly covers a wide array of things, typically not very critically as far as depth is concerned. He's not dumb, but he's not an expert on most of the shit he discusses
A subjective observation: Destiny seems to give Israel the benefit of the doubt in almost every scenario, to the point that it negates the faith in his logical analysis
He's doing it on purpose, he recognizes that almost everyone in this space supports the Palestinians and is capitalizing on an opportunity to seem controversial, which increases his engagement and views.
I think it’s extremely unlikely that he’s being disingenuous for many hours over the course of many debates. I’m not saying he’s wrong or right, just pointing out why his stance is the way it is. Also this debate highlights just how differently people can interpret the same set of facts, so I wouldn’t say there’s one objective conclusion that any reasonable researcher will reach on this topic, and anyone else isn’t arguing in good faith.
@@thegzak you can argue that any scenario in the world doesn’t have an objective conclusion. Nazis had a different conclusion to most people - are most people not arguing in good faith?
I always wonder with people who say that, if you actually think of DGG or the chat, as a single person that is typing 1000 messages per minute. You are aware that there are plenty of different people with different opinions in the community, right? Can you actually show someone who declared to hate this guy and later came around saying they always respected him while acting they never said anything else?
Professor Hill is NOT intellectually lazy. He’s well informed, well traveled, and his experience in this topic in which he’s been discussing for years, shows.
except whats happening is literally a genocide. Denying that is worse than denying even the holocaust as its happening eight now and the evidence is live
Something that heard so many times from Marc throughout this call that I find to be the MOST respectable thing is the pause before answering a question to say 'I have some other things I want to say, but I'm going to start by directly answering the question' is a legitimate online unicorn. I have not seen a single other human being capable of that level of mindfulness and I would love to see more of this man.
It's so good. Marc is so clear. People like baddie constantly making snipes, it means I don't even have a chance to hear what baddie had to say. I'm just know he disagrees. With Marc you can follow what he thinks. It's so important
Respect to Marc for his poise and patience. This guy's perspective and sentiment comes with so much power and privilege, in which reinforces the dehumanization rhetoric. He lost me on his definition of a Palestinian child, which I found pretty atrocious. I would like to see the evidence or data about Palestinian combatant children!! He produced nothing, because he is perpetuating lies. A child with slinging rocks getting killed by a sniper IS A WAR CRIME. This is a scary world when we debate "innocent civilians" targeted and murdered and explain them away as combatants. That is a lazy argument, and factually unsubstantiated.
@@rse3309 It isn't children slinging rocks, it is indoctrinated teenagers that have been trained and equiped to conduct regular Hamas military operations. Child soldiers are nothing new, especially to Islamists.
Most people don't do this because they're not actually there to have conversations. And most people would do this more often but the other person is just going to cut them off forcing them to make points faster.
Israel dropped 6000 tons of bombs in the first week on the Gaza Strip . America dropped 5000 in 1 year of the war in Afghanistan in 2002 .. don’t tell me they give 3 weeks to evacuate
Hamas fired more rockets in the 1st 24 hours then Israel did in a week I believe so your point is a contradiction. Also, it's still a warning just cause bombs are dropped doesn't mean they're on the evacuation sites.
its because all the targets are in urban spaces where in afghanastan they were in the mountains mostly. and because of that fact america's ROE was stricter for airstrikes. like there was a group of marines pinned down by a pkm gunner and the wall they were hiding behind was slowly chipping away and the gunship above wouldnt fire because orders were to not engage if there was a civilian there and there was a single woman also in the building. crazy@@sadeksama5057
Marc Lamont Hill is amazing. He wrote a great book on the USA and liberal and conservative politics in relation to this topic: ‘Except for Palestine - the limits of progressive politics’
Marc: What's reasonable notice for evacuating a hospital with patients linked up to life support machines and pre-mature babies in incubators before it gets bombed? Destiny:
Yeahstiny has admitted he has no place debating this topic, as he apparently had no knowledge that multiple hospitals have been bombed! And 2023 was not the first year this has happened.
It just goes to show how uneducated & willfully ignorant that Destiny chooses to remain regarding this 75+ year-long GENOCIDE being forced on millions of innocent Palestinians.
It's like this for all streamers... I find that majority of chatters are just terminally online parasocial losers. I just ignore them most of the time and focus on the convo.
As a cop listening to this debate, it seems to be the same little debates we had in the academy and now on patrol. It's basically a debate of the spirit of the law and letter of the law. We as cops should always be thinking spirit of the law over letter of the law. Destiny seems to be blinded by this and can't wrap his head around the manipulation around being able to use the letter of the law in ur benefit. I've seen fellow cops use it. On paper, they are doing nothing wrongful but you know they didn't have to act or do what they did.
@SedeVacante7 actually it is up to our interpretation of the law due to the fact that the law is written in a way that is determined by the interpretation of the situation at hand. That's why lawyers fight in court their argument of their interpretation of the law to convict people. You are literally taught it's spirit over the letter for a reason. I don't have to charge people for specific stuff if I don't want to and and I don't have to cite them just because I pulled them over. I prolly cite 1 car for every 11 I pull over a day because I am not obligated to cite them just because they broke an infraction or misdemeanor. You actually have to listen to people and figure out if the law broken is actually worth the time and effectiveness this will have on everyone
@SedeVacante7 really? You obviously never been on a call for service and actually have to discuss with other offers about the situation and how they interpret the law to decide whether someone actually broke it. It's not as easy as it seems. Most officers have the hardest time especially in the beginning to understand the elements of a crime and how to even charge someone.
So based on destiny’s logic every single person in Israel is fair game because they were all enlisted in the IDF. Regardless of whether they are active or not….sigh…
Most people in Israel carrying fire arms have most likely served time in the military. It’s part of a law there. Considering most people have to register with the IDF that are of age and live there, I see where he is coming from. Israel on the other hand is killing everyone including newborns to 6 year olds. Israel’s logic is HAMAS is in the area?
Thank god. Israel's government is the worst in the world by man - I have JEWISH relatives IN Israel that hate their current government. Destiny doesn't know what he's talking about - just a puppet of Ben Shapiro and war creating piece sof sh*t
@@1984isnotamanualHe defended the war crimes israel did against hamas in a treating room with a coma, he also defended killing kids who throw rocks, those both made destiny look kind of bad, bc you can sort of say the same about Israeli non orthodox Arab adults which are all enlisted and could be classified as “passive” in accordance to the logic proposed by destiny. I think the difference is if those hamas fighters said “today I’m not a soldier and I’m leaving the military” just like most israelis do they do their mandatory conscription and move on they technically would not be soldiers in my opinion where that hamas guy would bc even though he had a coma he was intentionally still a soldier and planned to re enter combat as soon as he recovered
Its amazing the confidence in which he speaks in contrast to his actual knowledge. Hill just spews sentences with no factual basis. He is just trying to win a debate.
@@robertjackson2878 yes I watched the video. All MLH's arguments were based on emotion, a double standard of warfare between the two sides, and a misunderstanding of international law. You probably are experiencing this as well.
Tell that to the people who are dead from kids throwing rocks onto highways... and he was using a single example. Your hungup on a single line from a 3 hour chat...
@@md85aus94 I made more than one comment and I made comments where I saw fit while watching the debate as a whole. But this comment overall dealt with the idea that destiny has a gap in understanding lethal force and when it's authorized. Usually there are steps taken before you just shoot a kid throwing a rock. Like a warning shot. And there's video proof of no warning shots and the Soldiers laughing at the execution of these kids. But hey I don't know what I am talking about with over a decade in the Army, more than half of that time in Special Operations, and more so deeply having to deal with International/Operational Law on a regular basis.
The second you cut off food, water, and electricity to about 2 million people, you can not claim to have the interests of civilians in mind. This is not normal or acceptable behavior. I mean, it is just common sense.
Israel was PROVIDING that water, and electrisity! You actually believe that when Israel declared war, they did not have the right to suspend the CHARITY they were providing, in order to harm their enemy?? Also, yes civilians were bound to suffer, war is hell...
It more about the fact that the 2 million people being in support of the violence against you! Despite what they claim most Palestinians support Hamas, attacks on and death of Jewish
@@robvett8584 The percentage was less than 50% before the war though. And more than 50% of Gazans still don't like Hamas as an organisation, even now. The only reason the numbers are so high right now is because they are in an active warzone and Hamas looks like the only org that is fighting against the perceived enemy
what he said about the "children in this region", was the most disgusting and racist thing I have heard. I am so glad MLH talked about the adultification of darker skinned people.
Wake up, its common practice in the middle east and africa for there to be child soldiers, MLH himself admitted to that, open your eyes and ears or get out.
@@shinershows153 knowing that there are child soldiers and saying that they aren't children anymore is a very different thing. The fact that they are called CHILD soldiers should tell you something. This youtuber said that they aren't treated like children in their societies, so, he and the government of israel also don't view them as children anymore. That is not how childhood is defined. Children are not defined by the circumstances and responsibilities adults put on them.
You clearly have the brain of a child, what he was saying, if you can comprehend is that "deaths of women and children" in the media implies innocents, if a teenager is engaged in combat, he is not an innocent child @@zia8248
Wow Marc wiped the floor with Destiny.....Destiny talks about Things being fact with extreme confidence but when challenged his "evidence" is so weak and even anecdotal. Very poor.
@@johnjohnson4440 Was this supposed to prove something...? Not knowing where a palce is on a map doesn't mean you can't have a good understanding of its history. Also as you admitted hes known now for months? I get you guys like saying random shit to act smart but next time at least choose smth a little more compelling
@@vallano8970 it actually proves something when you want to debate someone who's been studying a case for over 20 years like Finkelstein, experience and background matter my friend
@@MilimeteypeteyI wouldn't give his community this much credit. They only turn on him when it is completely obvious he lost but will gladly support the same genocide if he makes slightly subtler arguments for it.
Here to watch Marc Lamont Hill. Glad I got off the Destiny train. Lost faith in his guy. Many of his positions here seriously expose not just his lack of knowledge in this area but selective moralizing. This conflict has stripped the facade off of people like Destiny who try to use the internet to cram their way into a position that they already have and then debate deep, DEEP experts on the topic rather than being open and curious and taking that information in to learn. It’s all performative. And his positions are increasingly icky. In one minute he doesn’t know that any hospitals have been bombed and 15 minutes later he’s standing toe to toe with MLH trying to insist on the reasons why the hospital that he just found out 15 minutes ago was bombed should have been bombed.
Yeah, Destiny failed with that. But there are many hamas militants under the age of 19y (which is the threshold underneath the define "child", so a 18y militant died is considered as a child).
This is besides the point. The point is that presenting, for instance, the death of a 17 year old terrorist with an AK 47 carrying out military operations and murdering civilians as “They killed a child” is clearly extremely misleading.
If some country label anyone under 80 as a child then they can just say that the bombed killed thousands of childrens. Sure, it is still legally accurate that they are children, but they are, in fact, not a children. @@nimishachowdhury4577
@@Russian_Waifu Broke: Palestine has a right to defend itself Woke: Israel has a right to defend itself Bespoke: They both have a right to defend themselves
Yeah. His usually not this dumb on issues. You may disagree with his takes sometimes but on this he’s just proven wrong over and over. Looks more like payed propaganda, and I would not be surprised if it’s keeled later that he’s taking money from AIPAC.
This the one real example he give of "child soldier" in actual combat but then keep bring up bullshit imagery of a theoretical 15 year old militant soldiers with ak 47
@HassanKhan-lu8pw he has this weird gripe about Isreal killing literal children, ranging from toddlers to 17 year olds. Idk why he has an issue with the imagery of the word "child" being very young kids when they're also being killed. He doesn't know what percentage of children murdered are actually hamas members with "years" of training shooting ak's. So I have no idea why he'd bring it up.
No. He pointed out that using the word “child” is one of a moral high ground. They’re soldiers. Being used in a war. That’s what’s happening. Using “child” without “solider” is implying they’re “innocent children being murdered!” Destiny also included “woman,” too by the way. But go ahead and leave that out, the same way you left out context, so you can continue your moral high ground, just like Destiny said…
also proves he is clueless about the subject. he thinks Rafah a city, isnt he a clueless person ? 60 square km city? smth like 5km width and 12km length? what city is this? not even a town, and it hold like 1.8 million damn people and he thinks israel has the right to go in...
@@ilyaalekseyev3589yes I’m sure the child throwing rocks was doing so with the ability and intent to kill…. Jesus Christ brother listen to yourself…. I swear this conflict turns people into cold blooded sociopaths.
@TylerIsCoolBro Again, the slingshot you buy at Walmart is not the one they are discussing. What is practiced in the middle east is a sling, whereby a long road with a pouch can accelerate the rock enough to kill even some large game. Thing of the story of David and Goliath. He carried a sling to kill lions.
He is an arrogant prick who shouldn't be allowed to engage in serious discourse on serious topics with an esteemed scholar such as Mr. Hill. a RU-vidr without any academic pedigree only speaks opinions, that is who the destiny clown is.
because sling and rock can be used as WEAPON and if child starts wearing soldier uniform and all stuff that regular soldiers could wear with weapons etc then that child can be classified as child soldier
@@LazzieMazzie Israel forces these kids into desperate situations & then when they pick up a rock & sling Israel and it’s supporters scream “combatant”. What a joke.
@@LazzieMazzie yeah a kid with a sling & a rock is a soldier, sure. Kids walk around with slings & rocks in the US. But they’re just asshole kids. What makes the Palestinian kids “soldiers”? The fact that they’re middle eastern? Or the fact that Israel is squeezing the life out of them & they are being forced to fight back, even with “weapons” as pathetic as rocks & slings. Get real.
@@IEdjumacate A 14 year old with a rock and a sling can cause damage or worse. A slinger was a role on ancient battlefields, it is famous for allowing smaller people to take down larger objects. They were used to defend livestock from predators as well. Not sure why so many people pretend that a sling is harmless. How do you know he was not a combatant? Child soldiers are used all over the world, much younger than 14.
@@nateswan9527No he can't, I mean he literally cannot harm the average IDF soldier or his allies at all armed in body armor, helmets and eye-pro. This isn't an argument that can even reasonably be made so I don't know why you made it, he obviously isn't a trained stone slinger, he hasn't even be alive long enough as a 14 year old to have the years, practice or biological strength to harm anything besides maybe a dog, even then that's assuming he was actually a stone-slinger like David which again he obviously wasn't if you just apply Occam's Razor. Its not that a sling is harmless or that a trained one isn't you're clearly removing that statement or line of thinking from its actual context, it just isn't a threat to IDF soldiers or snipers. If I have a gun, any gun and nothing else against a tank? Is the gun in that context a threat to the tank at all? Like even remotely? No, but I wouldn't say that in other contexts a gun isn't harmful its just not harmful in that specific circumstance. I mean you can't explicitly know if he was a combatant I guess but that doesn't morally justify killing him, even if it is _technically_ legal in some instances (obviously depends on a lot of circumstances) they could just as easily apprehend him or place him under resist or just take away his sling, they don't _have_ to kill him. Just because children in different circumstances that _could_ pose a threat in a military setting doesn't this one in particular was. I don't think you realize just how much you have to concede morally and ethically if this 'child soldier' that is tossing stones is technically a combat that could and should be killed.
This debate felt like listening to a professor trying to educate a college arts major dropout and while the college dropout think he knows better. Marc is an Angel.
Exactly, Marc is well versed on this topic. From the look of it, a lot of people that are commenting on this thread seem to not know much of the issue that's going on.
Pro-Palestine Journalist has a RECOGNIZED name, and you should put that in your title as it's beneath him to act as if he is just some errant journalist, this guy is an auithority on the issue and has been recognized for a long time Marc Lamont Hill.
Agreed. Destiny not even naming Marc Lamont Hill is just another disingenuous attempt to discredit him. Glad Marc brought decades worth of facts, research, and objective analysis on this genocide.
You call it hospitals, HAMAS calls and uses it as underground command centers (in the tunnels they dug beneath the hospitals infrastructure, specifically to hid behind civilians) in disguise. It's hard to believe the non morally use of population being made in there.
When your debate strategy is to speak fast and act like you know what you are talking about, but then you meet someone who takes away your fast talking and ask you follow up questions to back up your argument. Destiny is in deep waters here
It's not his opinion, it's international law. The point is Israel is being held to an impossible standard that no other fighting force is held to. Did Hamas warn the civilians (or spare them) before Oct.7th??
@@GulDukat479 Is Hamas a respected country that needs to follow international law? You don't get to point to someone using underhanded tactics to justify your own, thats asinine.
@@taj561 Hamas is an organisation elected by the Palestinian people. You think they get a free pass because they're not strictly 'government'? If ISRL decided to create a terrorist group that specifically targeted families, civilians, r*pd women, kidnapped babies, is that ok because they're not officially part of the government of the country? You logic is so twisted.
@tablesalt2628 “Dr. Hill holds a PhD (with distinction) from the University of Pennsylvania. His research agenda focuses on the intersections between culture, politics, and education in the United States and the Middle East.” I think on the specifics you might be right. Checking it out right now.
@tablesalt2628 "Dr. Hill holds a Ph.D. (with distinction) from the University of Pennsylvania. His current research and writing explore the relationships between race, culture, politics, and education in the United States and the Middle East."
By the logic heard; Israelis all go through IDF training Hamas is therefore allowed to attack any combatant they encounter right? Since they are fighting occupiers in THEIR land? Just a thought experiment
That is actually the logic used by Hamas. That due to that, essentially their (Israeli civilians) are in a way soldiers to some capacity. Therefore, they consider them all fair game.
Considering hms went after children who had not yet enlisted (and therefore it's not a guarantee they would) no. They attacked Arab Israelis also. Some people prefer to do national service. Some people have disabilities. There are many jobs that are classified as army, but not actually combatant roles.
For those of you just discovering Mark Lamont Hill, you should check out his work. he's been an important voice on the left for a long time. I love to see him and Destiny engaging here, and I hope to see more of it.
He has in deed. Was really let down by him on covid lockdowns and the obliteration of freedom. You can't be pro freedom and anti-freedpom at the same time. Freedom is for all always. Not only in some specific conditions. I am hoping he, like many of those on the left will fix this mistake and go back to study how badly that judged the greatest human rights grab in history. They got it solidly wrong. On Palestine he's bang on - but isn't that all part of the divide and rule plan where the pink haired screaming people chase the Palestine supporters away?
This video is my first time seeing Marc and I saw him try to argue against Destiny for 15 minutes with the idiotic idea that armed 17 year olds should count as "children" and cannot be military targets. Marc sees very low IQ. Typical for modern academics in the social "sciences".
@@noterrormanagementnew pipe is kinda too different from youtubes actual frontend for me, i found it hard to get into, i prefer revanced its basically just stock youtube with extra features
@@danielquartler1527 In 2014 several hospitals and medical facilities were bombed or damaged most notably Al WAFA Rehabilitation Hospital. As usual the excuse was Hamas using it as a base of operations.
It amazes me how bonafide scholars who’ve published scholarship on Israel/Palestine waste their time with RU-vidrs who “skim” material, don’t know basic facts about the history, boldly, confidently, and emphatically make erroneous claims then switching the subject when proven wrong, repeating US/Israeli talking points, and back up their assertions with “I’m pretty sure”. Talking a million miles an hour doesn’t mean you’re knowledgeable and it certainly doesn’t make you sound smart.
They are desperate to spread the truth in any means necessary. The mainstream media has shut down discussion on the topic, so they have to concede to a RU-vidr
I understand where you’re coming from and actually 98% agree with you. Unfortunately these guys have huge platforms and so they have to be engaged with. The influence is too great to not address them unfortunately.
what the fuck are you even talking about? Why do you think he "skims material"? What basic facts about history does he not know? Which claims are erroneous? When did he switch subjects when proven wrong? Why is "repeating us/israeli talking points" bad, but repeating Palestinian/hamas talking points not? You realize there are a set of talking points, and commonly held beliefs that belong to either side and "repeating" them is 90% of the discourse for either side, right? And Why do you think its bad to qualify statements that you don't have a high conviction in with "I'm pretty sure", do you only trust people who speak with absolute conviction, even if they are wrong... the fact they speak with conviction means they are right? and "Talking a million miles an hour doesn’t mean you’re knowledgeable and it certainly doesn’t make you sound smart"; this is an Adhom. Tiny doesn't think it makes him sound smart, or makes him right, its simply how he speaks. It's just his cadence. If you don't like how he speaks or find it annoying, you can just say that. You don't need to ascribe some speculative bullshit that destiny obviously doesn't believe. But please, can you constitute a single claim with some substantive criticism instead of just doing this unsubstantiated gish gallop bullshit?
@@aliess6115 how about him stating that no hospital was bombed, but when he was proven wrong that the biggest hospital was bombed, he just shrugged it off like it's not a big deal. He doesn't seem to care for the Palestinian children being killed. He thinks a 15 year old is not a child. The dehuminazation is unreal
@omarsabir1210 do you have equal disgust for Hamas using civilians as human shields and building military installations amongst civilian population? I'm guessing not.
I would disagree that a kid with a sling makes them a full combatant because of the proportionality of force but it seems to make sense when applying to 16-17 year olds who are armed militants of Hamas no? I mean if a 17 year old is firing an AK at your squad you can’t just say well he’s still young he doesn’t know any better. It’s rather shoot him or you and your squad is shot. So I think it is disingenuous to frame them as innocent children who were killed walking to school or something. Dylan Klebold certainly isn’t referred to as a child for being killed by opposing forces a/killing himself he’s referred to as the shooter and a terrorist because he was armed and intent on hurting people.
debate was wild due to this pro palestine guy. thinking that a 17 year old boy that shoot at israeli soldier with an automatic machinegun and beeing killed for it should be classified as a child on the death numbers are insanly wild, so im 100% on destinys side on this topic. if your old enough to activly take part in a war, you should allso not be classifed as a child.
This guy is super impressive. It’s got to be a huge head-f*ck for Destiny to argue with very intelligent people like this guy one day, and then brain dead conspiracy theorists like the pro-Trump guy from Tim Pools show a few days back
Hill is impressive in a negative way. He's acting here like Hamas takes precautions across the board to protect their citizens. He's ACTUALLY defending Hamas being in hospitals because there was an "expectation they would not be struck". As if that is credible, moral and fine to do. It's actually smart of Hamas, tactically, because they will cry "Victim!" and the press ( mostly on the Left ) will naively go with their fake cries. Hamas is for Hamas. They don't care about their citizens, hence, hiding in hospitals. If citizens die, they die. Come on, people. Either Hill is so incredibly propagandized to believe the "better nature" of Hamas while not extending the same moral standard to Israel OR his tribalism and status depends squarely on defending Hamas so cleverly against Israel. Hill is a master of feigning ignorance.
Now this is a high-level guest right here folks. Marc Lamont is super famous and Tiny has been lining up big dogs one after another lately. Super happy for him. Keep going Dman!
He sounds like the typical pro Palestine supporter. nothing new nor high level was said, other then him trying to reflect Destinys talking points. lol Destiny seemed more informed on intricate details rergarding the conflict. Not surprised.
@@parallelnative that's true but there were no ad hominem attacks, no outright lies, and no bad faith arguments. MLH genuinely seems to believe everything he says, and is doing it from a decent understanding of the situation. He's not out here completely spreading baseless claims and nothing that comes across as "well the person I like said so". Dude was able to take everything Destiny said in stride, continued the conversation and genuinely seemed interested. I respect the hell out of this man. Compare this to the other "pro palestinian" people... and it's like a breath of fresh air.
I have to disagree. Marc has been wrong on every single position he's ever discussed on record. He's completely brainwashed and indoctrinated into the whole BLM ideology or systemic oppression mythology, and it causes him to consistently take the most repugnantly, malignantly stupid positions. You can find him talking about how much of a privilege it is to be White like it confers the greatest advantages over everyone else. He somehow manages to have that take while also claiming whites are evil racists out to keep the black man down without imploding from hypocrisy.
@@parallelnative - MLH is a literal expert on this issue. He has personally spoken to and interviewed most of the high level government and military officials on both the Israeli and Palestinian side, as well as high ranking officials in the region including heads of state. Unlike Destiny, MLH has lived in the occupied territories, speeks Arabic, and is connected to the Palestinian and Jewish anti-zionist activist community on the ground in Palestine and here in the U.S. Outside his media career, he is a practicing academic to this day. In his capacity as academic and activist he gave a formal speech at the U.N. regarding the theocratic Zionist apartheid State of Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians and was fired from his job when the Israel Lobby came after him. Destiny has none of that back ground that would qualify him to speak with any authority on this subject matter. Destiny is your basic center right corporate democrat, who sits in his comfortable home studio, reads Wikipedia and a few articles and thinks he is an expert. His fans see him speaking "confidently," and mistake that for him having deep knowledge of a subject and having engaging in works from scholars and historians who have done the hard unglamorous work of dedicating their lives to become a expert in their field of study. Debate bro culture often appeals to the stupid people among us, because they care about the vibes of the conversation and clever lines winning the day. They aren't educated enough to know what they "don't" know even when it is being demonstrated right in front of their faces.
Listening to destiny is infuriating. "No one takes the level of precaution that Israel does" Well, how many other countries; - Run a concentration camp with +2 million inhabitants - Run an apartheid pseudo-state and a permanent occupation - Periodically run weapons experiments in the concentration camp labelled as "operations" - Flaunts international law and UN resolutions unsanctioned and unpunished? I mean jesus H christ, The "uniqueness" of whatever measures Israel takes is due to the absolute uniqueness of what Israel has been allowed to get a away with for decades. And the only reason it does so is to manufacture the paper-trail necessary for people like Destiny to go "See? Look! They take measures! ISN'T IT EXTRAORDINARY!?"
Bad look for Destiny citing Amnesty international to defend Israeli actions, while they are also claiming Israel most likely committed war crimes following October 7th. Marc Lamont Hill needs to be more widely known for his work as a scholar and journalist.
That shit was wild for me. "Amnesty international said hamas was using human shields"...they literally cited the very opposite that the human shield argument had never been substantiated. And then citing them for using hospitals as attack points...this dude is crazy.
Amnesty international is an absolute farse of an organisation. In my country it urged us to take back our ISIS terrorists. In 2014 gaza war they said this yet didn't classify hamas as using human shields. THEY CLEARLY FKING DID AND DID IN THIS WAR. "Amnesty International found evidence that "[d]uring the current hostilities, Hamas spokespeople reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate" THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF USING HUMAN SHIELDS.
Well that was not his point. His point was Israel alerting people before bombing them was something no one has ever done in history. The Lamont persuaded the viewers by catching destiny in the legal argument
@@Ma1q444 And even that's not true. His own country has alerted targets of imminent bombing in the past. It's just repeating lies and propaganda at this point.
@@Ma1q444 One piece of research he _didn't do was a quick Google search for: 'How many hospitals were destroyed by Israel' because he would have found that: "24, 30 of Gaza's 36 hospitals had been bombed, many repeatedly, even while medical staff, patients, and civilians seeking shelter remained inside. In addition to hospitals, Israeli forces have targeted ambulances, medical aid convoys, and access roads.9 Feb 2024" I suspect Destiny _knew_ this but being an apologist for genocide, he simply ignored it in the hope that MLH had failed to Google the same query.
Destiny rationalizing the killing of children by redefining who qualifies as a child is gross but unsurprising considering who the children being killed are.
@uyioghosaosunde4667 the 12 year old torn in half hanging off a wall as a result of the bombing that took place during the super bowl was a child. The six year old attacked with her family inside a car was a child. All the of the little people I've seen being pulled from the rubble were children, you ghoulish genocide apologist.
@uyioghosaosunde4667 your style of argumentation is leaning too much on persuasion by establishing either or. Israel killing civilians is good or bad? Is that a fair question? Simply coming up with an answer doesnt mean anything. The premise is flawed. Its fundamentally flawed.
@uyioghosaosunde4667 I saw a 12 year old girl with her legs blown off hanging from some wire on the side of a building after being bombed during the super bowl and she was the most recent child I've seen slaughtered by Israel. As for who is evil, the ones that rationalize killing 30k inside of their concentration camp in a few months, while bombing all of their churches, hospitals, schools, water sources, shooting people trying to fish in the ocean, desecrating Palestinian cemeteries, while people throw parties to celebrate blocking aid to the people inside the concentration camp, the ones acting like Nazis are who I see as evil.
Destiny lost this one. Never heard of this Marc guy but I like how non confrontational he was. To me it seemed like Destiny closed his eyes and gave the benefit of the doubt to Israel way on every argument which just seems like a reach.
I’m also realizing how incredibly arrogant and smug Destiny is. Saying Marc Lamont Hill has a “decent” understanding of international law is like saying LeBron James has a modest understanding of zone defense.
The civilian casualties in a 20-year war in Afghanistan totaled 46,319, resulting in an average of 2,315 civilian deaths per year. Comparatively, Israel's civilian death toll in just 4 months is 30,000. In the Iraq war, between 280,771 to 315,190 civilians were killed, averaging between 35,096 to 39,398 deaths per year. Over an 8-year period, civilian deaths by Israel would reach 720,000, and over a 20-year period, it would amount to 1,800,000. Despite this, Destiny is arguing that Israel takes extraordinary measures to protect civilians, which is surprising given the statistics.
The wars aren't comparable. This war takes place in a much more densely populated area while Hamas is taking human shields. If war crimes were being committed (which hasn't been proven yet) the UN would be forced to step in.
Well he did, then dropped out and finished his education at PA schools, where he is from. But that wasn’t really my point. It was just that he’s wearing the morehouse hoodie the whole time while crushing destiny in a debate from the left
he wasn't unconscious. He was being treated for burns trying to make explosives. there is video footage all over x of him moving around in the hopsital bed clearly not unconscious, plus the two terrorists visitors that were killed in the room.
@@gumby33sushi Fam, what you just described is still a war crime. You don't get to attack people being treated for injuries in the hospitals, even if they were soldiers. Imagine if Hamas ran into an Israeli hospital and killed soldiers who were under medical care; you would be screaming about war crimes.
So easy to dismantle these israeli arguments, You just literally have to hold them to the same energy with the same question just replace Palestine with Israel and they will always lose guaranteed
you don't even have to do that, just try to reconcile their conflicting claims. ie the human shields thing. Its both illegal to attack civilians and to force them to evacuate with the threat of violence, doesnt matter who is using 'human shields'. They choose to attack civilians and then say it's hamas' fault Or like when they say the killing since 10/7 is a war against hamas, but the west bank is being attacked. It makes no sense
Destiny: Israel warns civilians where to go so they are the most moral army Marc: They bomb Palestinians while they are fleeing on the "safe" roads designated for them and even in Rafah Destiny: Israel doesn't need to warn them they are allowed to bomb them any time they see a threat Marc: Yeah but that invalidates your previous point that they warn them Destiny: Ham azzz uses child soldiers to hide in hamazpitalz and skshalyy violates every single israeli women lalalala I can't hear you!!!! Holy moving the goalpost batman. Destiny was gish gallopping like a madman and Marc reigned him in and DESTROYED him.
BS, Marc fails to recognize that Israel created safe passage and that Hamas was attacking them on the corridor, not Israel. Israel said go south and once they cleared North, they started on the south where they sent people. This was a big time difference and things change. It wasn’t like Marc entailed within hours.
@@michaelscott70Doesn’t matter because they’re still bombing the safe zones and they know the Palestinians are more and more limited on where they can move
@michaelscott70 hahaha, that's patently false. Israel even reported that it was bombing the Palestinians on the routes that they told them to take. Every news outlet reported on this, human rights groups have reported on this, Israeli human rights organizations reported on this....videos from Palestinians have exposed this. But sure guy 😒
Not really, some of his talking points are extremely stupid. "Hamas doesn't make it a goal to use civilian locations for war" and "UNRWA not working with Hamas", both of these points are proven false, this man clearly doesn't understand how deep hamas and hamas support are in Gaza, it's not far fetched to call it a terrorist driven society, when shani louk was paraded through Gaza, even children spit on her dead body.
The whole bit about child soldiers being soldiers and doesn’t make them a child is so beyond ridiculous, I don’t even know what to make of it lol. Any moral person views a child soldier as a victim. I don’t like at child soldiers in Africa thinking “look at these barbaric soldiers”, I think “poor indoctrinated child”, “forced into combat” etc. CRAZY take from Destiny…
If the child does have a gun they are an enemy combatant, no problem with IDF shooting at these kids. But what Israel appears to do is say every child that could pick up a gun as well as every adult is a target, they say apparent women in burkas could be fighers too, so they are a target. It's cowardly behaviour either to genocide or protect their soldiers
I read a memoir about a child soldier in Sierra Leone called “A Long Way Gone” a bit ago. Before i read it i understood the gravity of child soldiers but after i finished it, this view had been intensified ten fold. So yeah, it is extremely ignorant to assume that child soldiers are not forced into that way of life by any means. It is disappointing that someone with such a large platform cant understand this and make that distinction. Poor children.
@@sunthif5830 100% agreed. When an adult has “consensual sex” with a minor, it’s considered rape because the legal view is that the child does not have the mental capacity to make these decisions for themselves. Surely the same principle would apply in the case of child soldiers. Crazy world we live in… Also care to share the author of the book? Would love to give it a read. Thanks!
@@Symbiot7 he did share it but i will as well “A Long Way Gone” there is another one called "beast of no nation" that one is fiction though there is also a wonderful movie
This guy was absolutely outstanding. Every question answered, argued his case well, none of the usual BS. I really think the debates and conversations with academics have been SO much better than the random redpillers and idiots tankies
@@gnomadD_ Umm 1 example Shifah hospital CCTV footage, 2 Shifah bombing by failed PIJ rocket and more. Dont care to continue with someone who clearly doesnt care about facts
His style of argument was polite and fair, but his entire argument on Israel is fundamentally still rooted in the antisemitic “Israel are evil” stance that most leftists begin at.
Not really. He thinks like a humanist which is fine, but doesn't really think about the difficulties of the situation. Israel gave phone calls, leaflets, texts. No other military does that. While it's sad that a TERRRORIST group doesn't allow them to move, they minimized casualties as much as possible. So, Marc lives on LALA land and thinks that terrrorists and brainwashed citizens have a healthy moral structure.
@@kingkarlitolmao what is this bait reply the children throwing rocks has nothing to do with what u just said also the stabbing is it confirmed or is it also fake news lmao even so I won't even put the blame on a 13 year old stabbing he's innocent in my eyes idf killed he's family and friends so he's just avenging u know gaming main character vibes
Ah no he didn't the very first time he mentions children he talks about the region has child soldiers and he described them as carrying aks. How is that not like a school shooter. You people defending hamas over a single sentence make me sick.
That "14 year old soldiers are called children to paint a specific picture" argument from destiny froze my blood. They are called children because they are children and i dont imagine 4 year olds when that word is used. This is someone i regarded highly in the past.
When you make a child a terrorists as hamas does you are no longer a child. they teach them to hate from preschoo; and took away their childhood, the hamas ofcourse and other orgs who rule lands. like afganistan for example
I'm sorry but dont blame israel for shooting a 14 year old with a gun. Blame the militants that gave the child a gun. Nobody in their right mind would blame the cops when they shoot a 16 year old school shooter "bEcAuSe hE's a cHiLd"
It's literally racism, too - Black boys & Black girls have faced "adultification" (aka being treated as if they're adults when they're still minors so that racists can "justify" sexualizing, abusing, etc, them more easily) & now Destiny is partaking in the adultification of Palestinian children so he can "justify" MURDERING Palestinian children. Fundamentally reprehensible.
@@leemajor5003tbf his point was that “women and children” invokes non combatants and defenseless people, while a non negligible amount of that number is composed of militarily active teenagers. This never sounded like he was saying that a child that throws a rock is now no longer a child, as his actual point was that a minor that takes substantive military action against Israel would still be a child, but not invoke the implication that they’re non combatants and defenseless like some reportings seem to want to do
The thing is with warnings, is the people of Gaza have no where to go. And we have had an incident recently Ruqaya Ahmad Odeh Jahalin was murdered with her family after they called the red cross to prove they were non combatants and the car was still. this isnt mentioning the bladed bomb they launched earlier in the campaign. But people over look these details.
As someone who watches updates from people on the ground, the “warnings” seem to actually serve as psychological warfare. Like a stalker calling your house and hinting that they’re somewhere inside to terrorise you.
This in fact shows a pattern. Israel is bombing civil infrastructure like libraries, mosques, churches, political buildings, universities, courts, research laboratories, farms, cultivated lands, water tanks that have nothing to do with military targets. The only reasonable explanation is that they want to block any possible and potential rebirth of a Palestinian society and a new wave of politicians and intellectuals. Let's also mention the fact that Israel literally plans an ethnic cleansing by kicking the Gaza people out of the Strip and pushing them into the Sinai region (it is literally the goal of the war, you can easily check it on google). Israel also claims to fight against Hamas but at the same time they cut off food, water, electricity and humanitarian aid to the entire population in Gaza without any reasonable and objective justification (there is none in any case). More than 60% of Gaza is flattened and the overwhelming majority of victims are women and children. Israel has already killed 30'000 people (and by the way, all international organizations say the number is probably much higher than that) in less than a year and that the 20-year war in Afghanistan claimed the lives of 46'000. We also see repeated careless bombings of civilian houses and unlawful and disproportionate killings (so it's not just a coincidence or a small number of isolated errors), so much so that we can see a clear pattern of indifference at best and vengeance at worst. But both cases are sufficient to prove the intent to partially destroy an ethnic group, which fits the UN definition of genocide: Israel knows their actions are disproportionate and brutal beyond any reasonable explanation. In fact, their military policy purposefully disregards any civilian life and any civilian infrastructure (the Dahiya doctrine, google it and you'll see) and they further extended it in the Gaza war. Let's also mention the countless Israeli politicians that literally make genocidal claims (total annihilation, no food and no water, they are all animals to be destroyed, etc.: you can easily find all this online).
The shit he says when marc aint around is super wrong and there is no pushback when he isnt present like saying the jews do politics better . Really racist and islamaphobic .
Exactly. Support for Palestine is rising internationally and support for Israel is declining. How is that good politics. All he does is pontificate. And the implication that Israel represents the Jewish people is deeply antisemitic.
@@chrisperez3614 I absolutely agree, esp with your last point. It's a classic case of why separation of church and state is so important. Conflating criticism of a government to a whole religion that it "hides behind" is a dangerous argument--- and they lean into it!
Muslims tend to create authoritarian governments so a “one state solution” would just mean mass murder and expulsion for jewish people living there. Islam is an inherently supremacist religion that tolerates nothing else.
If you thought you were in for an easy time with Marc Lamont Hill, then you didn't research him properly, hes one of the best, neutral, most considered voices on the topic.
@@ahmed4100 Thats fair and perhaps neutral is the wrong word, I should have said balanced. But your point stands, how can you be balanced when their is a slaughter going on. However balanced voices like marc, who doesn't blindly defend one side, will call out what is incorrect or baseless, will also say the things that pro palestinians might not want to hear, and he will equally not let lies go on the other side. It Is Imortant, as those voices are more ikely to have impact and reach. Because once all is played out , the balance overwhelmingly will fall in our favour and you see that in his pro palestinian stance when all is said and done.
@@rehanhaque He might be a pleasanter man than the likes of finklestein, bargouti, chunk, hijab and co but it doesn't stop him from being naive and misguided.
if you by that means utterly clueless, historyless, and totaly lack knowledge about anything, then sure we agree. this socalled journalist are a disgrace for his profession, and clearly show how easily so much missinformation and stupidity are posted in newspapers about the conflict if hes lack of knowledge are the average for journalists
"When the IDF employs women we don't say wow Hamas is horrible for killing those women" ... uh Israel has been saying EXACTLY this. They've been saying this on their official social media accounts, government statements, etc and are repeated verbatim in American media.
Destiny is genuinely ignorant and clearly hasn't conducted unbiased/objective research on this genocide. This "debate" proves that. I knew he was an apologist for genocide but my GOD, he can't even attempt to defend his "points" (aka, his mass ethnic-cleansing support) because he is clearly only using the IDF Tiktok page as his main "source" for "facts" on this genocide.
no way destiny honestly believes hamas can be defeated. if a resistance movement falls, one will always rise in its place. destiny isn't an idiot. why pretend to be?
Marc was emotional the whole time. Disagreed with factual claims and rebutted with false claims. He’s been brainwashed by Hamas propaganda, just like a majority of the Palestinians. It’s sad.
I didn't learn a thing. I had to stop after 1 hour it went nowhere. Marc's 2 points in 1 hour were. Israel didn't give enough warning eventhough it does more than any other country. He gave no evidence for his claim , just became emotional and kept repeating himself. The second was that he's happy with hamas figures ignoring women and children combatants when listing people who died.. Even when destiny goes down to female soldiers in an army Marc still disagreed and though they should be listed as dead women. I learnt nothing. Just that Marc is so prejudice against Israel and Jews that he will make idiotic theories in his head.
@@md85aus94 yeah I completely agree. I don’t see how anyone sensible could say he won this debate. People just don’t want to believe the facts. People don’t like being wrong, and this comment section proves that lol It’s sad honestly.
@@carnivorous_vegan they'll say no or dodge by trying to act like "rock throwing" is mostly done with pebbles (but never question the notion of sending kids to try and "stand tall" in front of tanks/soldiers though)
“Throwing a rock” Have you seen the pictures of them swinging slings to launch these rocks? Not saying it’s equivalent to a gun, but is possible to be killed from these “rocks.” At least a dozen people have been. And pretending that it’s like “throwing a rock” at someone freehanded is disingenuous.
That is objectively how war goes, has always gone, and will always go. It is absolutely inevitable that SOME civilians will die in the VAST MAJORITY of wars. Now stop being lazy, go do some research, and figure out how to construct a logical argument rather than appealing to emotion you manipulative little guy.
not even remotely about to privilege. Social media captured only the deaths of Palestinian people to garner empathy from the public while not showing oct. 7th attacks and terrorist attacks that happen almost weekly in israel since the dawn of the country. Pro-Palestinian people are thinking too emotionally, thus holding israel to an unachievable standard. when israel fails to meet that ridiculous standard we say "that's how wars go...". Imagine having the fear everyday when going out to the street from getting stabbed/shot. It was 100 times worse in the first and second intifada. Buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem were blown up all the time. Hundreds died. As a citizen it's really shitty to live in that situation. And peace is just not an option.
Hassan has been proven to lie about almost everything and take down videos by several people in insanely in depth long videos. You can do many things in this video that shows a good argument for palestine. But simping for hassan is a very dumb thing to do lol
@@LuiBei1994 so why did they refuse a ceasefire deal to release all hamas hostages and they release all Palestinian prisoners which are mostly not convicted with crimes and have high amount of children. + a plan to rebuild gaza. Sound fair after all the mayhem they did where they damaged 70%+ of the buildings in gaza. They rejected this deal btw.