Yep. Wizards is so scared of hearthstone they've basically made standard hearthstone 2.0. They basically say "fuck you" to all control players and tell us if we want to play control we have to drop $1000 on a legacy deck and then we can only play legacy tournaments of which there are basically none. I haven't played MTG since Sphinx's Rev rotated out but I check decks from time to time and I have seen basically 0 tier 1 control decks in the last 3 years. Pa-fucking-thetic.
To everyone that says fuck control or says this deck takes no skill is just ridiculous. This kind of deck has been around since the early years of magic, This kind of deck takes more skill than almost any deck in the Standard format. It was a good counter to the meta of this tournament. This was a very good deck chosen by a very good player. Stop being salty over decks in standard. Dont worry, there will always be another deck you will all hate when Khans comes out
That could not be any farther from the truth. Owen turtenwald would agree with me the same way that Ivan Floch thinks it takes a stupendous amount of skill to play aggro.
***** Remember that with a control deck there can be a wrong answer, with aggro there can never be a wrong threat Control players are considered more skilful as they are required to think about the game more as one wrong move can cost them a game
lol "Ivan just discarded a hand that was better than something that Owen could beat" As much as I want Luis to win, I have to say, him casting is the best thing ever.
I don't have a problem with U/W control. I have a problem with this style of control. There is literally not a more boring deck to watch, and it's pretty much the ultimate "Fuck you" deck out right now.
I wonder if it was this match when Turtenwald thought to himself "I should play control next protour" without realizing that pretty much the entire deck that he lost to was rotating out.
Control needs to exist as a counterplay to midrange and aggro. Playable wraths and countermagic, as well as detention sphere effects to fight Planeswalkers, help make aggression more complex than 'flood the board and play value cards and walkers'. Mono-red aggro should also exist in an affordable form as an entry point to standard mostly made of commons. Granted, Rev should have been a sorcery so Rakdos Return worked as a counterplay. Selfless Spirit should exist alongside 4 mana wraths, or something to that effect, as well. Control should exist along with countermeasures against control.
Revelation is X3 Return is X2, one extra mana for instant speed is around the going rate, look at quicken. Quicken gives instant speed *AND* draws an extra card on top of that. Which is balanced out by having to play a low impact win-more card like quicken in the first place. We can basically ignore the extra card from quicken, since it has to replace itself to be even somewhat credible as a seperate card and unique effect. Basically, it's 1 extra mana for instant speed. It's not the only example either, So Revelation, costing 1 more for instant speed, over a comparable card like Rakdos Return, is very good, but still perfectly fair. Also Rakdos Return does damage, in addition to being card advantage. which has always been and will always be extremely relevant, and can win the game. Wheras Revelation only gives life alongside card advantage, with lifegain being much worse than damage and isn't always even relevant at all. See healing salve vs lightning bolt lol Of course drawing cards is "better" card advantage compared to discarding your opponents cards. Because you get the hand selection effect from drawing 10 cards and discarding back down to the perfect 7. Wheras discard can never go above the hand size threshold at all. But yeah, there's definitely no balance issue between Revelation and Rakdos Return. Rev is clearly better, but they are still relative in power. Some cards are just better than others lol
Honestly, as a YGO player, it's still a bit crazy to me how casually people treat discard effects in MTG lol. That's basically the strongest thing you can do in YGO and there have been multiple tier 1 decks whose entire gameplan was spending like 10 cards extra deck summoning just to discard from the opponents hand lmfao
@@ExtraVictory but yugioh is a completely different game than mtg, discarding is only ever a good thing if the deck is built to use discard in magic, and the only formats nowadays where discard is actually good are the older formats where all the best discard effects are still legal
@@SuperbFairy I'm pretty sure that's just people not understanding the value of discard lol. I mean even discarding 1 card from your opponent hand is a huge deal. At least it should be lol. Discarding 2 or more is completely backbreaking lol. That's only 4 mana with Rakdos Return and you get 2 damage as well. Let alone discarding 3 or more cards from your opponent. How are they even going to play at that point? They won't have any resources left lmfao. In Yu-Gi-Oh there used to be a card called Delinquent Duo, it's banned now. All it does is discard one card at random from the opponent's hand. And then the opponent has to choose a second card and discard that as well. So that's 2 discards, one random and one by Choice. And it was completely crippling back in those days before graveyard effects were so common lol. Despite the fact that we had tons of crazy draw effects running around as well like Magical Mallet (reset hand) Graceful Charity (draw 3 discard 2) and Pot of Greed (draw 2) but if you started the game with a Delinquent Duo or God forbid 2 of them your opponent could be starting their first turn with 3 cards or even 1 card lmfao. That's like forcing the opponent to mulligan to 1 before the game in Magic lol. You literally can't lose. Obviously MTG gets to draw 7 to start instead of 5 but everything also costs mana which Isnt the case in YGO. So it basically balances out lol.
Theoretically the play that most punishes Floch is making him play it out every time so he's forced to take the draw (because you can't really deck somebody without any mill spells twice in a 50 minute round) or somehow kill you with Mutavaults.
@@drpibisback7680the Jace allows him to use his opponents best card as a finisher. So he does have a way to finish thr game if they make him play it out.
There's a beautiful balance between a control deck and a midrange deck, where the control deck will deal with everything in the midrange deck, and the midrange deck will deal with everything the control deck throws out. It's just pure interaction until someone finally pushes through far enough.
Yeah not anymore. Cause most people are idiots who just want their decks to play themselves Wizards has decided to make control so weak it can't exist. All playable creatures have built in value now but a 2 mana counterspell has to be so heavily nerfed it's unplayable and all wraths cost 5 instead of 4, 2 mana all purpose removal like doom blade (which isn't technically all purpose) are gone.
The deck is all card draw because of all the discard hate it has to fight through. Thoughtseize is the most stifling card in Standard. No creativity in brewing decks when any combo can be surgically cut to pieces with Thoughtseize, and if that wasn't enough Duress, Sin Collector and Lifebane Zombie are there to join in on the fun! So what's the answer? Play card draw to get your spells back and play less permanents to make all that good black and white removal into blank cards. It's really an interesting battle.
These matches, commentary, visual presentation, everything is great please keep up the good work. for someone like me who cant really afford to play serious standard magic, this is great because I get to see what is going on and what the cards are, and the quality overall is excellent, thank you.
Owen saw that Floch discarded a bunch of great cards which meant that what he kept must have been even more amazing and decided to concede since there was no way he could win
@@Thesunburntcrack so did Rev UW? The anti control cards that were available (thoughtseize, duress, sin collector, voice, boros charm, skullcrack) were much better pre rotation. What anti abzan cards were there? Whip+Hornet queen? Fuck, the abzan Lists just started playing that!
isphus Due to Elixir, he cannot ever mill out, so his opponent will eventually deck themselves. Either that or Jace can ult and tutor up whatever win-condition is in the opponents deck.
owen conceded the game because he had almost no chance of getting out of the situation he was. the blue would eventualy simply deck out his opponent by playing infinite elixirs of imortality, supreme verdict and sphinx revelations.
Because he saw that the cards floch discarded were amazing, and probably something that he couldn't deal with, an this was what Floch didn't keep in his hand, so Owen realised he had no chance of winning and conceded
Real question guys. How did Ivan win during the timed rounds before the Top 8. My friend told me that his deck is a good Pro Tour deck, but it would never win an FNM, What did he mean by that? If someone would elaborate, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
He was lying. Simply adding like 1 Elspeth can speed up this process immensely, I won the first FNM I played after M15 with this deck except I had an Aetherling in the main.
He means that with no Win conditions in the main its hard to win before the round ends, in the pro tour top 8 there is no time limit, and with no time limit that deck can play forever. But as Jackson Ellis said, adding win conditions to the main make it possible to win an FNM. I played it with Aetherling on the main and it can win.
I used to play this same deck at FNM all the time and won with it all the time except you have to play at least one win condition in the maindeck because you will get a few salty opponents who refuse to concede and actually make you deck them just so they can draw the match.
TrackpadWarrior Why? Control decks have always dumped all their mana into drawing cards, starting from the Weissman control deck, and their plan has always been to simply not die.
Neil Wilkes if you know you're going up against a heavy control meta play discard main board and 3 to 4 powered creatures with a relevant ETB ability, simple
+Duc Son Le Yes, he gave up. Actually, the only 2 ways this deck can win without it's sideboard cards is when your opponent's deck reaches 0 cards or when he gives up.
That's disgusting... I also think his best cards just went out and he sees nothing in his deck left to win with. Thank you very much for your answer! :)
U/W control has a couple win conditions, but in this case, he decided to go with only the following: Decking out the opponent, via elixir of immortality, thus not decking yourself out Jace's Ultimate taking your opponents win condition Mutavault going in for a while Making your opponent scoop game one, because they need to play the clock, and then winning on time, or side boarding in Elspeth etc.
There was no way for Owen to win that game. it was just going to continue until a Jace ultimate happened, at which point Ivan would kill Owen with his own card.
that is why Elixir of Immortality is so amazing in the deck, you can discard all these wraths and keep a hand full of card draw spells to get elixir and re-add those recently discarded cards back into your deck when you so choose.
omfg what am i, tech support? 4 bars means ur getting a good signal form the wifi hotspot. That doesn't mean anything about how much bandwidth the hotspot is actually giving to your phone or how good the connection from the wifi to the internet is.
I hate this kind of deck...this isn't playing magic, this is just trying to make your opponent as miserable as possible until they don't want to play anymore.
John Nilsson Actually being able to, you know, play? The thing both players are supposed to be doing when they sit down to play the *game* of Magic. As versus being forced to sit there and twiddle your thumbs until the clock runs out.
MirageDragonMyrgon Aggro and combo decks rely on being uninteractive towards their opponent, a burn or a zoo deck don´t care about their opponent and will try and minimize interaction. They´ll only fire a bolt towards a creature to remove blockers(true in zoo) or disrupt combo so they can finish the player off. Control decks are always interactive, even when its repetitive and monotonous for the opponent or when it has become obvious their opponent cannot win, they´ll keep grinding and responding to everything the player does, and end up finishing them off. I play aggro all the time, and proactive strategies lean more towards less interactions than control decks do. It´s not the archetype that makes matches like these boring for the opponent, its the u/w deck Flock is using, it somewhat minimizes the interaction and increases the card draw to create inevitability . Just look at a highly interactive uwr control in modern, they can instantly finish off games with bolts, helixes or celestial colonnades.
Sphinx Revelation - WOoHOo I need no skill to play...my deck is on autopilot. What a joke. This reminds me of Ravager, another brainless standard format that needs to rotate.
I am so glad that this concept of control doesn't exist in Standard, and will hopefully never exist again. Not letting the opponent play the game, interact, while the WU player jerks it and draws tons of cards is not good for the game. No matter how many bad control players (who believe themselves better than they ever were) were only ever capable of winning with it and consider it their "glory days". Standard should ALWAYS function around the mid-range, where there is an early, mid, and late game. Full of interaction, value plays and chess-match-like decisions. Not aggro that has to win by turn 4 or it loses, control that wins after turn 4 100% of the time, and rogue decks that will never get there.
If people still wonder why I run Counterspells in all of my decks, I'll just point them to this video. Imagine countering those Revelations or more importantly, the Elixir of Immortality. The control player would just mill himself out. Also a Soul of New Phyrexia would be kinda cool in the Sideboard against that deck with counterspell protection.
