Your wrong about the first Cryptic Command. He tapped flooded grove which gives two U mana if you active its ability. The forest was not used to pay for Cryptic Commanded it was used to pay for Flooded Grove. So to recap, for the 1st Cryptic Command he used the forest to activate flooded grove, taped grove for 2 blue mana, then taped a dual land for the 3rd blue mana and then typed Valakut for the colorless. It was a legal cast.
Which Grand Prix(s) did you top 8? Also, I didn't say that he should have made the mistake, but every player makes mistakes, even Jon Finkel and Kai Budde; making mistakes certainly doesn't make somebody a terrible player, especially after said person won like 11 rounds in a row at the highest level of play...
Kudos to the judge/official at 53:45 for helping out the newer viewers (myself) with watching matches. Having to go through all the motions of resolving, cracking, etc. will really help.
When playing a combo deck it sometimes feel more like you are playing a game of magic all by yourself, the opponent often doesn't matter at all, what matters is how you make your deck reach that perfect set of cards that means you win, no matter what your opponent does.
Clique's triggered ability is Sajgalik's responsibility not the judges where as maintaining the proper board state is the judges responsibility, don't get annoyed at the judge for sajgalik making an error.
1:56:38 I don’t know if Sajgalik is genuinely dumb or thinks the ref is because while he didn’t name a target he clearly, after getting remanded said “I’m gonna counter that” placing his card by the remand. Like everyone, especially the judge, knew what you meant by that and when you pulled back after seeing open mana on his field it solidified any question for what you were targeting. I think I see why because he wanted him to not draw a card but still overall everyone knows why the Leak went out.
man, mtg was cooking during this time, got me back into mtg after a 10 year break (started during revised) its in such a bad state right now. modern at its worst. standard a 5 out of 10. only thing im having fun with is historic on arena
Yes I just noticed this recently, at the time on Twitch the HD option wasnt avail so the way the flooded grove looks is as though it was a land of some sort that only produced green, the blue portion of the card was hidden. the clique resolving and misstrigger however, is a huge problem.
haha, and how many Pro Tours have you played on? Zero, okay, cool. The more matches the more chances to make mistakes or the more chances to make the perfect play. I sure didn't throw any matches like this Sajgalik player did. So point made.
Millions? Sure they do. The few that play with millions are already multi-millionaires and put that money up for poker because they can afford it. Magic is different on its own. The players are not using their own money on a scale in the millions. Not to mention Magic's bluffing is on such a small scale, as it becomes clear and obvious what your Opponent is playing, especially in pro tours. So I guess you can say the reason why they act like this is because its 1 on 1, not FFA.
I'd even argue that Eggs is less interactive than those decks. With dredge, you'll have interactions in game 2 and 3 at the very least, or if you're able to kill one of your creatures before their bridges go nuts, you shouldn't be in too bad shape. Oviously with SI, if you have no interactions then it's GG. But there are so many things that can be disrupted, from counters, to graveyard hate, even wasteland in some cases. Stifle also wrecks the deck, along with force.
I'm a big fan of combo decks in theory; when I'm engrossed in pulling it off, it's great. Watching it happen on camera really makes me feel the hatred others seem to have for it. The term 'non-interactive' fits nowhere else as it does on decks like Second Sunrise. I love the deck tech and have nothing but respect for the dude that came up with it and the guy piloting it, but fuck..it's a horrible deck as far as Magic goes.
I think the judge wanted to back the game up so that Ed would catch the trigger. However, that's not legal interference (as it is the player's responsibility to identify/announce/resolve all triggers), and would have likely resulted in adverse administrative action. So the judge made the decision to make it all about the tapping of lands, and the Head judge correctly denied him the ability to rewind the game state (and assist the player).
the problem with putting magic matches on TV is the time. 1 hour for a match, is it worth putting it on the air? maybe for pro tour finals. if the match is done in 15 minutes, that's a lot of interviews and stuff they would need to do to keep people watching. maybe feature matches with hall of famers? seems like a lot to go through =/ ofcourse, I would LOVE to see it!
yeah they look so similar. Shame about the mana leak and the clique mistakes though, however I can't see someone with all those mistakes getting through, even if I am British. Overall I don't think he played his control deck that well, often countering things that were not threats, and having literally nothing left for when the combo was going off..
Right, what I don't get is 1. how he forgot to target after he fought to keep it in play, and 2. how the judges didn't say anything since that was an illegal play - he could have targeted himself, but he still had to target a player for its ability when it hit the field.
A deck that plays the same regardless of what the opponent is doing. You are essentially goldfishing every game (Goldfishing is playing a game with your deck against literally no one or a goldfish as it were as the goldfish would do nothing.) You don't "interact" with your opponent.
Non-interactive means that the deck doesn't care about what the other deck does. It doesn't care if you play creatures, attack, counter spells, discard, or removal. It basically says, you do what you want, and as long as I survive to turn 3 or 4, I win.
eah,but why does this hurt the gae?its not like you can just go and punch your opponent if his deck takes some time to finis thegam... omg,just respect what people want to play,if they want to play without an opponent,just let them do it lmfao.
Asking in all seriousness, what do you mean by "non-interactive"? Not trying to start an argument, I'm legitimately asking. I've only been playing for like 8 month, so i'm still learning. What qualifies as a non-interactive deck?
Idiot judges in the last game, the player even specifically said 'green, green, blue, blue' when he tapped those four lands. If they weren't watching they shouldn't judge on that kind of thing, especially since the other player didn't even call for them.
Ochoa should not have drawn the lightning bolt to end game seven because he never shuffled for the marsh flats and thus removing the lightning bolt from the top of the deck. That just seems like a huge play error please correct me if I am wrong.
i don't think infinite non-interactive combos are as noble and high-minded as you'd like to think it is. it is just lame and turns the game into a one man show. if you want to play with yourself learn solitaire.
Non-interactive, when the guy with second sunrise is essentially playing solitaire while the other guys begs to shuffle his deck and keep track of the storm count because there's nothing else to do.
Ciftkas deck is so fucking amazin I love it I didnt make the same deck but I had sorta the same idea but I didnt kno how to bring the cards back....second fucking sunrise genius
Sunny Side Up is not quite as non-interactive as Spiral Tide, I would argue. That deck is literally referred to as the masturbator. Source: Myself. A Spiral Tide Legacy player.
I'd say it was assumed that since he didn't ask to see his opponents hand he simply cliqued himself and didn't take anything. Though I'm not exactly an expert when it comes to the rules.
Not only this, but it's just a habit. I'm nowhere near these players, but I flip through cards as well. It's something I think most "competitive" magic players do.
This is called Return to Ravnica tour and the only RTR card they use is the Deathrite Shaman , this blows ... I hope they change this in the future ...
catch lee shi tian behaving like a petulant child at 38:20....literally thru his whole match. like when he whiffed mana leak and tried to appeal.....this guy
Couldn't Watanabe have won a turn sooner? Cast and activate Liliana (that he just drew), animate Village and attack with everything? Or could Chew have any answer to that?
Please tell me if I'm wrong, but Lee didn't mis-tap (I don't think). He used a forest and tapped his Flooded Grove to add UU and then tapped his steam vents for the third U... so he legally cast it?
Oh sure. I'm not saying that Tian not acknowledging the missed Clique trigger was him playing smart. That is of course taking advantage of your opponents missed triggers. I'm just saying in general, I think Tian made smart plays for the situations he was in. Of course, he would have lost if Sajgalik hadn't missed that Clique trigger. However to play devil's advocate, one could argue that was solely on Sajgalik. Which I believe is true. Can't blame Tian on not reminding Sajgalik on that one.
It is on Sajgalik, unfortunately, but it's a game violation misplay due to a mistrigger that was mandatory. the highest he would have gotten is a warning, in the least a caution (a judge steps in to prevent play and remind sagjalik he needs to resolve the clique fully first before the game goes on. It's not a "may" trigger. It's mandatory. Unfortunately it's really, really sad to see no judge step in, very embarrassing. I've met with Eric (frenhc judge) in quebec city, he agreed.
yeah, I groaned every time they put him on camera because you know its going to be 20 minutes of nothing actually happening and the game become simply "can they kill him fast enough?" rather than a duel of player skill. Not calling him an unskilled player and certainly not an unskilled deckbuilder, but once the combo starts, there is no skill match-to-match other than "go through the motions and dont play your opponent at any point in the game or do anything different, pray he doesnt kill me."
the idea is that fun magic is interactive magic. The combo deck is almost entirely non-interactive, therefore not fun to play against or watch. I mean... I actually think it's pretty cool. But I understand the complaints against it.
Haha, I like how dimwitted the commentators are while they're going over the Deathrite Shaman after Yuuya won his match. He didn't have the shaman active or even in play when he passed turn. He had the Victim of the Night to kill his own Dark Confidant because he knew Chew couldn't kill him with just an Apostle's Blessing. Major derp in my eyes..
The only question I have about the ruling is, that the 'fix' of everything going back and happening the same thing is not true, as the clique would resolve and then remove the scapeshift from Tian's hand, rather than coming into play and doing nothing (which it isn't really allowed to do, as he has to choose a player)..
If any of you think Tian didn't tap his mana correctly for that Cryptic Command then you obviously aren't aware that he has a Flooded Grove in play. Tian played skillfully in this match. Sajgalik was all about the misplays here.
I didn't know that it was legal to do that before the untap phase? oO' So I can now play an instant with my remaining mana before the untap phase? I'm sorry, I just don't have that clear and is bugging me off hahaha.
Modern has very little ways to interact turns 3-4 except for targeted removal and some soft counters. As Cifka said, he mulled until he found a leyline, which is what won the match. There was absolutely nothing Watanabe could do except hope he screwed up. That's the least interactive possible. But despite being boring to watch after a while (especially since I'm mostly a combo player), nothing but respect to the guy for making an incredible meta call!
I didn't. I just answered your question. h445 probably is referring to the fact that Eggstakes 8-15 minutes to "go off" with the combo which means that the opponent has to sit there watching and doing nothing for upward of 20 minutes.
Did you not see the 2 blue for the first cryptic command? and then 3 blue for the second? That's a problem all on its own. Sajgalik should have declared whos hand he's looking at, but it's a shame he didn't. Sajgalik did not misstap, not from what I've seen. Lee did.
I wonder if Sajgalik was kicking himself afterwards for missing that golden opportunity with his Clique at the end. With 9 potential power already on the board, with 7 of it flying, he could have very easily won if he hadn't missed it. Such is life, but sucks to lose like that. >.
Just clarifying: Tian -DID- mistap his land correct? He did tap a Breeding Pool, Steam Vents, Valakut, and Forest for his Cryptic Command, correct? Obviously there was no way for the judges to confirm that on the spot, but that's still what happened I believe.
Hey, that guy forgot his Clique activation. That's just as much a part of Magic as anything else. That guy fell to the stress of the situation and messed up. Kudos to the judges for not pointing it out or making a big deal of it. That's how it goes.
I'm not sure if you have got your answer yet, I bet you have, but a non-interactive deck (atleast to me) means a deck that the opponent just sits there and watch. In creature matchups you can block, use removal spells, ect. but against combo decks usualy and in this case Second Sunrise once the combo starts the person facing it just kinda sits there and waits to get killed or until they fizzle.
It's basically crazy card advantage and a creature that can beat in for 2 every turn... and it only costs 2 mana. Yea it's sort of sacrificial black-style. But you play dark confidant in a deck that has a very low mana curve so the card advantage is worth the little bit of damage that you receive from it, because you should be dishing out much more damage than you're receiving.
decks where you dont do anything interracting with your opponent untill you go infinite and kill him directly? not a long time player myself but thats the best answer i could come up with
clique lets you see someone's hand, choose a card in it and put it at the bottom of that player's library. Eduardo played the clique and countered the counter.... and then forgot to look at Lee Shi Tan's hand to make his throw away the scapeshift.
Card Advantage, its such a big thing as drawing 2 cards instead of 1 each turn is a massive boost, that's why you see players kill the DC as soon as it hits the table if they possibly can. Also the Jund deck doesn't have any above 4 mana cards as far as im aware, with the majority been 1 or 2 the loss of life is insignificant compared to having more cards.
If the game state was reversed back to then, you could viably say he forgot to use the clique again. Also since no target was chosen (if that's part of the issue) he could have targeted himself, revealing no cards and thus choosing none. Not sure if it would be ruled that way but that's what I think is possible anyway.
Was it just me or did both Ochoa and Edel tap fetch lands (marsh flats and verdant catacombs)for mana in game 5 at around 1:21:00? Not sure why they did it so if anyone knows an answer would be awesome. Thanks a lot.
at 1:22:38 he regenerates Thrun, which I believe taps him and makes him unable to block, am I wrong? He would have to go to declare blockers, block, then regenerate in order to make that work out the way it did.
When Clique resolved, he was obliged to look at this opponents hand. However, he did not do that. Even though he doesn't have to take a card from his hand, he wouldn't have left Scapeshift just standing there when it outright kills him.
1BB is the tricky part, not only the tempo, but also the fact that you can screw, and have it as a dead card. Also, a creature can beat down, which is a legitimate way to deal damage against combo decks (and somtimes other decks). It is a resonable argument, but Bob is simply a stronger card, in most decks from modern.
The same can be said for any combo deck that doesn't interact, this is just an extreme case that has no point where you can really shortcut. If you look at the elf combo decks in modern and legacy, it's very similar with the exception that there are shortcuts.
sure ok so you scape shift away a bunch of lands,then get a valicute thingermobob with a shit ton of mountains and bang also did anyone else see willy miss play by tapping his vertant caticums for mana
It wasn't Breeding Pool, it was Flooded Grove, you can turn the G from forest into UU using Flooded Grove, so it's G into UU from Flooded Grove, U from Steam Vents R from Valakut so he paid for it using UUUR.
It means that once the opponents combo goes off, they combo player will win and the other player has no way to stop it. Therefor no interaction by the non combo player.
I would have preferred Booster draft or block constructed for the finals :/ Modern hardly uses any cards from Return to Ravnica, and it's the Return to Ravnica pro tour!
