Justice League is one of the most famous disasters in cinema history, but how did it all happen? Join me as I explore the problems, mistakes and betrayals behind the scenes that lead to this infamous flop.
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This reminds me of the movie event horizon which I had never heard of until I subscribed to your channel. The fact that the original is lost makes me very sad
There’s one thing you had off mate...they effed with BVS heavy and that was the reason for the low ratings. If you’d watch the Ultimate version...you’d easily see they’re influence.
Not really true. Even in the Whedon cut The entire team still contributes to defeating the main villain, even Wonder Woman still delivers the final blow even though she doesn't cut his head off.
I personally think being a Superman fan is a sign of being a narcists. Batman fans are a bit more conflicted and introspective. It's like that Woody Allen line, i don't identify with narcissus, i identify with Zeus. So when a true Superman fan makes a Superman film, they put too much of themselves in the character. Like Superman Returns turns Superman into a dead beat dad. This version of Superman is what Zack Snyder would be like if he didn't have to listen to anyone and could just throw his critics into space.
Or in the case of LotR, where the making of and the films are on about equal levels. The effort, care, and passion put into those three films are as awe-inspiring as the end product itself.
So many twists and turns, evil organizations with their own goals, petty tyrants with no social compass... it's excellent. I havent watched a single tv show or movie in like 4 years, they just can't compete with this, assuming you like tragic comedies.
The worst part of it all was what Warner Bros did to Snyder: they decided to change the project he was leading, wanted to remove him and they viewed the DEATH OF HIS DAUGHTER as an opportunity and released a different movie saying, at that time, it was the conclusion of his work. 😤 No wonder so many people mobilized for the Snyder Cut to be released and still raised $ 500,000 for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.
@@returnedtomonkey8886 BRUH NO! that man Cahyo is fuckin nuts. She died because of completely unrelated suicide due to Depression. Extremely disgusting behavior to spread jokes about a Teenagers Suicide
The worst part of all of this is that when Snyder left, he didn't want to publicly say what had happened, but felt he had to because of what the media would say if he left without reason.
Yes, it finally got the plug pulled on that poor attempt of a universe. And fortunately the attempt of the second version resuscitate the series didn’t manage to get air in the lungs (hopefully)
It's crazy that, even though Feige pulled off an unprecedented feat with the MCU, Warner thought they could skip straight to the Justice League and make it work. The sheer hubris is astonishing.
To be fair JL was the 5th film in what was meant to be a connected series (MoS, BvS, SS, WW, JL) which is hardly rushing. Marvel got to Avengers on their 6th film, two of which were Iron Man movies. The trouble is that all the DCEU directors provided the required connectivity for the studio, but then WB interfered, removing bits, shortening films, reshooting and generally sabotaging their own ability to compete.
@@jtjdrums You can't seriously be counting fucking Suicide Squad as part of the core Justice League. 4 movies with only 1 Superman movie, a Batman V Superman and a wonder woman is nowhere near enough to setup a justice league movie
@@blackpanda7612 of course I'm not counting Studio Squad, because, as with BvS theatrical and WW theatrical, WB did their best to ramp up accessibility at the expense of connectivity. I'm pretty sure the Ayercut is part of the ensemble. So yeah, I'm fucking serious.
@@jtjdrums Yeah, there were those, and I completely erased SS from memory. As you said, I think WB erased the connectivity from the movies, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there were still Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg yet to be introduced. And man, they had two messy spider-man movies with too many storylines to learn from. There could probably be a 'Snyder Cut' for each of those movies, that could be better than what we got. That would be crazy.
BvS was supposed to be a two parter BvS: Enter The Knight 2015 BvS:Dawn of Justice 2016 But wb didn't let that happen, they forcefully merged the two parts and also cut 30 minutes of the merged film WB was rushing to compete with Marvel
My mom and I watched them back-to-back over two nights. First the Snyder Cut, which we’d both seen recently, and then the theatrical cut, which we hadn’t seen in years. It was quite the experience. The theatrical cut feels like a montage of the real movie.
Actually, the movie that was originally supposed to kick-off the DC Cinematic Universe was the Green Lantern movie, but because of its low box office returns and mixed reviews, WB decided to go back to the drawing board
Let's be honest with ourselves, green lantern as a starting movie to a cinematic universe is a terrible idea, the lore of green lantern is to complex for the common movie watcher, like the simplest way to explain it is "we are an intergalactic police force" but then they decide to add the other lantern corps into this with the yellow lanterns and Sinestro. Like they could have had a buddy cop movie with Hal being the dumb rookie and Sinestro the experienced, disillusioned veteran, with a few cameos to other popular super heroes and then have Sinestro die in a dramatic way to save Hal, and later on after a movie or two, reveal sinestro is back and was evil the whole time, but noooooo, we had to introduce the lantern corps incompetently with a generic plot, screw earth, let's have space cops fighting crime
@that one joey I didn't hate the film but I agree, they tried to put so much stuff into one movie when it should have at least been a two-parter, something WB has a tendency of doing over and over again lol
That movie makes me sad. Not because of the movie failing. But that the movie failing killed any hope of another season of the Green Lantern animated series. The world will never know the joy of Razer, the Blue Lantern who is 100% done with everything.
The other thing to consider are the actors. People know the Marvel actors made millions of dollars for their recurring roles, especially those with good contracts like Robert Downey Jr and his Ironman. When planing out a cinematic universe you have to deal with actors who expect that same amount of money or just fail to commit to long term contracts. You can't do something like Avengers if your replacing who plays Batman every 3 movies.
Not only are there different Batman’s, they’re also in different universes. Utter disaster if you’re trying to maintain the interest of the average movie goer. They aren’t going to figure that shit out.
Truth. They call it in the business a 'retainer', paying an actor comfortably to secure them exclusively. Without that, the studios obviously have more freedom to change course, but the actor also has the complete freedom to go find other work. The infamous situation with Henry Cavill's moustache was a perfect example of when you haven't got an actor 'locked in'.
@@razorpit There's no disaster at all. You marvel kids simply don't understand the DC multiverse. Affleck is the central Batman. Keaton is the multiverse Batman and Pattinson represents Earth 2
@@dcmastermindfirst9418 I understand man, but hear me out bc i get where they're coming from. I jumped back into comics when i was 20 (poor kid and only got hand-downs from brothers growing up). I started with AoA and was immediately lost. I went to wiki and a week later, after probably hundreds of new tabs, i kinda got every question i had about DC and marvel answered. Including conflicting DC stories, i had always heard this and that about "in the comics" and usually, alternate universe was the answer if i wasn't a reboot thing. We, as fans, know and understand, but they're kind of bipolar about treating people as completely new fans but long time fans at the same time. They're probably going to explain it in flash but, as of now, no movie has said it is A B or C universe. They announce things like that in a random publication but only fans end up finding out. The arrowverse answered everything in its Crisis but outside of Crisis, it's never been mentioned in story for any movie. It's like they're gambling on us to explain it to normies at this point lol. They're failing on the biggest staples of writing that alot of everything misses, Show Don't Tell. If they haven't seen the random news article saying The Batman is earth 2, they are probably thinking its another reboot or Young Batfleck. Not to mention Joker which is now getting a sequel that i'm already iffy about. Warner used to be good but after 5 buyout/mergers since the 90s, they just seem to have a history of ruining franchises due to corporate bs. Just look at WCW being immediately sold to its biggest competition after the AOL Merger, despite Ted Turner Himself fighting for it. That's all DC is to them at this point. An IP in their library. Sorry for the rant lol
Drinker! Please do a “production hell” for “Alien 3” you know it needs to happen. A textbook example of pure studio interference fuckery which helped,in my honest opinion, create one of the greatest left field filmmakers of our time….
Love most of his episodes, just can't often make the livestream or afford the time for them after It's not the same watching a rerun though, you lose a layer of interaction. Almost like making a videogame movie or a live action cartoon or anime, you're just missing part of it
"Marvel did Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Hulk, Thor, and Captain America movies before the Avengers. Maybe we should introduce Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg in their own movies before we form the Justice League." "Nah, it'll be fine!"
_”Too many cooks”_ Exactly! I understand the businesspeople’s focus on cost, efficiency and predictability. However, the businesspeople in the 1970s seemed to be far more intelligent in their handling of artists and the artistic process than today’s executives. Subsequent generations of movie executives probably thought that they could tame and domesticate artists for a more manageable and profitable process. However, I reckon that they have not only increased the cost and timescales, but also reduced the creative quality.
I think another difference between the 70s and today is the audience. Your big budget mainstream movies are for an audience that primarily doesn't speak English so the dialogue should be simple for subtitles or dubing and any specific cultural refrences should be removed or changed and so on. I don't watch independent film but it seems streaming and TV with its smaller audience has filled that nitch IMO.
Yeah or any remotely faithful take on the characters. They haven't been loved for decades because of the costumes and power sets which is about all Snyder did correctly with the heroes.
@@CrazyCarnieCory if you have HBO max check out the DC animated movies. I'd say at least half of them are good and most of them have solid versions of the characters. That is the best DC film universe we will get, considering WB has gone from one bad direction (grim, morbid, every character is from Watchmen) to another (all heroes must be black or female.)
@@jbbrolic i actually really like where Snyder is going with superman, tough it only shows if you watch the Batman v Superman directors cut and the Snyder cut. Instead of having Superman start of like that he makes him grow into that person instead which i liked a lot.
Now they all feel the need to "reimagine it for modern times", make sure they check off as many diversity and inclusion boxes as possible, and push tHe MeSsAgE. It keeps driving fans away, but they keep doing it. The truly stupid fans will give them the benefit of the doubt and come back with the right mix of nostalgia bait in a movie trailer. They're a lost cause.
The most shocking thing to come out of this entire fiasco for me was still the fact that I ended up having to say something nice about a Zack Snyder movie. His version was... also flawed, but there's no question it was better than Whedon's.
This. The only reason the crappy Snyder Cut gets so much 'oooooooooh' is because the bar couldn't possibly have been set any lower with the original disastrous release.
Interesting- I never watched wheedon's version and only saw the Snyder cut and thought it was alright (especially considering that I'm not much of a DC fan and have only seen a few DC films) I thought a few bits in the 3rd hour dragged a bit, but overall, I wasn't bored for most of a 4-hour-long film!!
I honestly disagree. I genuinely believe the Snyder Cut was worse; a lot worse (both were bad, but the original was a garbage bag while the Snyder Cut was the entire dumpster).
From what I heard, Snyder was going to be fired, but when his daughter committed suicide he was basically allowed to leave with grace. Horrible. But I think it's obviously true by statements that have been made by Warner's about the Snyder Cut NOT existing and Snyder after the Snyder Cut was released and if he'd work with Warner's again.
Man Cavil's moustache still takes the fucking cake for me. Imagine spending $40 million dollars and hiring an army of Indian CGI programmers rather than two grown adults talking to each other and letting him shave off a moustache that could be regrown in like 2 weeks.
Problem with that was that Henry Cavil had an contract with Mission Impossible Fallout that said he can’t shave his mustache until filming is over. WB got into a pissing match with Tom Cruise over the ‘stache, guess who won?
@@TheGary108 It was still a stupid contract rule. The way they talked about it they made it sound as if the moustache was integral part of the character, and having watched the movie I guarantee you it was not.
@@Dreadjaws Of course not. But it’s in the contract. Like it or not, contracts has to be followed unless there’s an appeal. Appeals cost money and there’s too much risk for escalation and it might end up costing more than using CGI to hide the Stache.
Imagine the alternate universe where Warner decided to take their time. They'd be kicking into high gear right about now at a time where Marvel is in a place of weakness. DC could have crushed Marvel and all it would have taken was patience and good planning.
ikr. the worst part is that it really doesn't take much to crush the M-She-U nowadays. all u have to do is stop promoting THE MESSAGE. oh wait actually nevermind... thats impossible in 2022 right.
Exactly. That's what I would have done if I was in the big chair. Let Marvel have its run then step in with your own unique superhero movies that Warner should have been working on in that time. It's not as though the publics taste for superhero movies was going to end on a specific date.
Movie fads only last for about a decade, and the superhero movie phase is on its last legs by now. We're already seeing massively diminished returns with MCU Phase 4. I'm sure WB felt like they had to strike while the iron is hot.
“Nobody knows anything...... Not one person in the entire motion picture field knows for a certainty what's going to work. Every time out it's a guess and, if you're lucky, an educated one.” ― William Goldman, quote from Adventures in the Screen Trade (1983)
I can’t wait for this series, hopefully you can do production hell on other movies like Fan4stic, X-men Origins, The He Man Movie, and many other films that either had a messy production or were stuck in development hell.
or a segment called franchise hell, i just watched the EFAP guys watch the wonderwaman films back to back and christ i'm pleasedi didn't sit through those, Gal Gadot is NOT an actress she is the classic Mactress.
The Fan4stic video got taken down, I recall the Drinker mentioning that he was contacted with a threat of legal action if he didn't take the video down.
Barring all the horribleness of the issues that plagued Justice League 2017, one could argue that it may have been better that it all went wrong for DC Films. Marvel Studios had dominated the market share of CBM by 2017, and everyone was hyping up the next Avengers film. The WB studio were fighting the directors, writers and actors they'd hired to compete against Marvel which was already an uphill battle. Now tho, with Marvel having just started Phase 4, and DC films in 2021 having had huge success with both Zack Snyder's Justice League and The Suicide Squad, as well as starting off 2022 strong with The Batman, DC Films has a chance to win back more of the GA market share that Marvel dominated. The WB-Discovery merger may also look to reshuffle key positions at WarnerMedia in a bid to return back to the "creative-friendly" studio it used to be, having lost Snyder to Netflix, and Nolan to Universal. Time will tell.
Many people hate the Snyder Cut because they don't appreciate what it represents, being a symbol of a film director's rights to creative freedom in their film and a fanbase's loyalty to what they love.
@@Acusumano25 Also being funny. Marvel movies might be repetitive as hell but at least they are entertaining to watch. The chemistry between their actors and the humor just work. DC take themselves too seriously.
@@Acusumano25 creating an entire universe takes time and effort. I'll try my best to explain this to you: One piece has had more than 1000 episodes of world building, and ifsomeone tried to create an universe as detailed as that but with only 24 episodes, it just wouldn't work. In the same way, DC tried to imitate the success of the M-she-U by putting in barely any work. basically it was just a cash grab.
Exactly. Like the MCU putting out an an Iron Man and a Captain America film then going right to End Game to introduce Hulk, Black Widow, Hawkeye and whomever else all in a two hour film. They were too impatient to wait to shoot their wad.
Random, but i wanna say cause i got it on my mind: We live in a Time where the US-President is so massively incompetent-hyper-deluxe that he says "There is DIGNITY and HONOUR in Working! So Work!", blatantly lying for Reasons pointed out by RU-vidr Some More News. Go and then come back and tell me youre opinion on it.
I haven't seen the movies, so I can't make a good judgement call but it seems they've removed the mustache really cleanly. Could've left it in though. That stache in MI:Fallout was glorious.
That's why I can't help but just laugh my ass off when people slate Zack Snyder for the DCEU failure. Any sane person who has a fully functioning brain knows the problems with DCEU lie squarely at the feet of the WB executives. I mean fuck even Christopher Nolan left WB after he'd been with the studio decades because he became sick of their shit.
@@Michael-mt6yb that wasn't his point, his point was that the "justice-league" was fucked because of WB anyway he never said zack-snyder was a good director, only that WB are the fucking worsts and most incompetents peoples in the industry
Saw JL in 2017, even with no expectations it was a disaster. It took only a couple of minutes and scenes to realise that it was not a Snyder movie. The next couple of hours in the theatre were an uninterrupted back and forth between despair and internalized rage (only topped since by a certain space trilogy made by a certain studio with a mouse as a mascot).
Production Hell is my favourite. I would love to see one on "Waterloo". Shooting a western film in Ukrainian SSR with over 15000 Red Army soldiers and cavalrymen as extras in the middle of the Cold War could have been nothing but a nightmare. It's like LoTR but with no CGI, all practical effects. They built a battlefield and had the 7th largest army in the world at the time.
"Grouchy! Gerard! You take 30,000 men. You take one third of my army and pursue Blucher. Don't let them regroup or consolidate and don't let them rejoin! I haven't seen it since I was a teenager (1995ish) but I remember it was a great movie!!!
Can Back To The Future qualify for this series given how the story kept getting denied in the 80s back then before universal allowed it a greenlit, firing Eric Stoltz after 6 weeks of filming once they could get Michael J Fox their original choice as Marty and hiring Jeffrey Weissman to wear molds of Crispin Glover's face for Part 2 when Glover and the crew couldn't agree on a payment settlement?
Small correction here: the first attempt from WB at creating a cinematic universe was Green Lantern. They were already planting the seeds for other movies by including Amanda Waller (and an earlier version of the script even had Clark Kent in it). Of course, that didn't pan out for obvious reasons.
Something I've been trying to figure out... Where does the DC universe even begin? I thought maybe starting chronologically with it, like in order of release. So you'll have Dr Occult, with Rose, Superman, and on and on... But then some of the other characters aren't a part of the JL. So maybe you go Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, The Flash... Wait, that resembles the JSA roster.... Maybe you split it up into AC and DC?
@@gibsonchomar7428 Sure, but that only meant they intended to have many characters in one movie. They still didn't plan a cinematic universe. The Superman and Batman from Justice League Mortal and the old Batman vs Superman movie were going to be played by different actors from the ones in the then current Batman and Superman movie.
@@Dreadjaws the batman they were considering was Christian Bale, to fight Brandon Routh And as for Justice League Mortal, it was gonna lead to solo movie spinoffs
Thanks for 8:45 - 9:25 in particular. I've heard of many relatively recent movies being ruined by unrealistic deadlines, but every time I hear that, I can't help but wonder: 'why not just delay the release date a year?' Now I understand the answer for at least one such movie (and it's probably a similar reason for all the others).
Some common misconceptions. The Snyders have done an interview with Variety. According to the, Joss and Geoff were already around when Snyder was still working on the project. The Snyders kept on working for the project when their daughter passed away. But they kept on clashing with Geoff Johns that they decided to just quit it because they thought it's not "worth it". They should be mourning instead of butting heads with Johns and Whedon.
The reality is that WB didn’t have the patience to give the characters origin films of their own in the same way the MCU did. Yea we got man of Steel but Cyborg, Aquaman, and perhaps even Flash should have had their solo films come out ahead of this and perhaps even BvS so that we’d actually give a care about these characters. It also does the groundwork so you have their backstories done and don’t have to cram them into this film. Then this film can focus on the story it wanted to tell rather than doing the work of several films.
the problem with WB wow don't we all get tired saying that at this point but anyways it would be nice if they would just say ah do what ever the hell you want just don't go over budget nope always fighting over control of a film in production making all these bizarro ass decisions at HQ is there any hope for them ah sometimes well I'll tell you another thing is tho it's gonna make ya a little mad but WB also has all the old ips for atari and they don't have any plans to use any of em as of right now either
The characterisation of Joss Whedon in this piece as a man backed into a corner who cracked under immense pressure isn’t an analysis I’d agree with. My reading suggests he was a man of immense ego (which became bloated, grandiose and malevolent after the success of The Avengers) whose hubris brought about his own downfall.
I mean, the movie Snyder created was an absolute disaster, as we can see with the Snyder cut. Joss had an impossible task and I view the Whedon cut to be better than the Snyder cut despite them being both horrible films.
To be honest, I'm reminded of how much better the DC animated Universe was. The animated series for Batman and Superman, Justice League and JL:Unlimited and Batman (freakin) Beyond. The perfect balance of lighthearted moments, heartwarming hope, tonally appropriate dark moments, on-point emotion and brilliantly-written scripts and character arcs. That and Shirley Walker's fantastic music sensibilities, may she rest in peace. Frankly all they needed to do was live action adaptations/additions, cooperate with the original crews, and it would be money in the bank with a built in passionate fanbase. The integrated DC universe work was already done by acclaimed series. Minimum assembly required.
I think the DCEU would have been more kindly received if it came out in the early 2000s, since the DCEU uses the same kind of structure as Bruce Timm's DCAU (Superman and Batman get solo movies/shows first, team up show/movie comes next, and spin off character solo movies/series follow) If Warner Bros. had been quicker on the gun, this could have happened and it would have been great; but since Marvel got their cinematic universe first, everyone thinks that the MCU (almost every character gets a solo movie before doing big crossovers) is the only way to go.
@@charlesman8722 Ridiculously awful take. Snyder very obviously cares about the characters and telling a good story, whether you like his take or not that's an indisputable fact. The theatrical Justice League was bad because they booted him out then crapped over everything he did by bringing on Whedon.
This movie told me to cherish the DCAU from 1992-2007, and including the original Teen Titans series, and Batman Beyond. Also at 7:49, should have had Joss reply with "fuck off film"
DC also has kickass animated movies that are after that DCAU era that are really good. They almost always have the voice actors from the DCAU or equally talented voice actors for all the characters.
God I love the DCAU. What a near constant and impressively well made just jewel after jewel of television. Nothing is perfect of course but I have gotten so much entertainment from that time period. Batman Beyond was my personal favorite :D
Cinematic universe was a great idea and very easy to pull off. They literally already had an animated Cinematic universe before Marvel's live action one started. All they had to do was look at what worked with the old Batman TAS. That show was the launchpad for the Superman TAS and the JL/JLU and Batman Beyond and Static Shock all of which tied into the same universe.
Drinker, as a fan of your RU-vid work and your Ryan Drake series, the “Production Hell” stories are my favorite. Thanks again for another episode of…….”Production Hell”.
I’ve been a Superman fan since I was 5, and a DC fan in general. Ever since I saw the Avengers movie, I always wondered why we hadn’t gotten a live action JL movie for so long. I was so crushed with how bad it turned out 😞.
Man of steel was actually really good to me. A little slow in some parts but the action was top tier miles above marvels fight scenes. And the story was pretty good to
Growing up with Reeves superman i honestly hated it the first time I watched it however I re-watched it last year for the first time and really enjoyed it! Highly rate it now, don't think I've ever 180°d on a film like this before but glad I gave it another chance!
@@batcavedave2535 i think when it came out originally the world was so invested in marvels story arc at the time that we didn’t really appreciate or judge man of steel correctly
@@drugsarebad97 fully agree on that point! Think it was definitely influenced by the good fun/low stakes style of the early marvel stuff and people's memory of Christopher Reeves in the role. It's a pity that Warner Bros have shafted Henry Cavill as I thought he was great in the role. As someone in this thread commented already the score is amazing. I particularly love the scene when Jor El is telling Kal El to save Lois from the escape pod, the music and Russel Crowes acting give me goosebumps every time!
Yes, Man of Steel really resonated with me as well. Henry Cavill was great in it, Michael Shannon and Ante Traue were cool antagonists. The film took its time, but I didn't mind. Each time I discuss superhero movies with friends, I never actually hear anything negative about Man of Steel. Seems like its bad reputation with some people might not actually be real.
@Mcheetah This. Before the MCU, before Arrowverse, we had the DCAU. and the DCAU was fantastic. All they woulda had to do is that and go. Its amazing how they fucked it up so bad, when right under their noses was the perfect blueprint for them to draw on.
@Mcheetah As I said, I'm not a DC guy, but I loved the animated shows and watched them on often. You're right, the blueprint was there to be had. These characters are so ingrained, so established in our conscious, I was shocked at their mistreatment.
@@onequickthing8950 Even then, Snyder could have chosen to do it right, but didn't. If I had Superman's power, I'd rule the world with an iron fist, but I still understand that HE wouldn't, his fans don't want him to, and I wouldn't write a story where he did. So Snyder is blending his Objectivism with rampant ego and a complete lack of both people skills and business sense.
I think the main problem with Justice League is that few of the characters had any connection to the audience. Marvel had the right idea in making the solo movies first to win the audience over for most of the characters. (and that they clearly should have made it 2 movies… or even 3 )
I think they did, Before JL, there were 3 movies released. Man of Steel, BVS as a Batman reboot and WW. But I see what you mean, they should've made Man of Steel 2 instead of BvS, WW, Batman solo movies (reboot), the Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg and then JL.
If only the DC CU had taken their time and built a proper MCU clone universe with the DC superheroes and storylines, quippy humor, and action-based plots. Instead they tried to create the dark night-verse, where everything is edgy and brown tinted.
On the other hand don't forget that countless fans claimed that DC doesn't need to do origin movies and should straight to big team up since everyone "knows" the characters. Synder gave them what they said they wanted. Hmm
@@k2k4 Well would you have wanted to wait through 6 movies + 1 (BVS) just to get a Justice League movie, especially when you already know where they were going with it? That would’ve taken too long. ZSJL did the best it probably can with juggling all those characters and not in a bad way. You certainly grow attached to the characters so the goal was met, the price was just 4 hours.
I have watched both. I liked the Snyder cut more, because my brother, friends and I watched it while cooking dinner and drinking. Having someone miss out on some parts of it and then having seven intoxicated people disagree while explaining what happened was a great experience.
yeah but wb also interfered very badly with the dcau and dcamu with the dcau they kept ending shows left and right all the time. static shock, batman beyond, batman tas, superman tas, and justice league the series where all canceled before all the stories where finished. so justice league unlimited had to balanced all that and give it all good endings, and it was a miracle they pulled it off with wb breathing down there backs. and with the dcamu, all those where direct to dvd and didn't get the attention it deserved. yet they let the disaster of a movie the killing joke into theaters.
I liked Man of Steel and didn't mind the darker writing. I though Kevin Costner did a nice job and enjoyed Cavil's performance. I saw Justice League in the theatres and instantly disliked it. The Snyder cut however, while far longer, was far more enjoyable.
Same. I agree with some of the drinkers takes. But not this one. Snydercut = awesome. BvS = awesome. The MCU has movies, I don’t like them, they’re more aimed at a younger crowd. And I can smell the Disney. I hope the Snyderverse is restored.
@@lexbc4751 there’s a difference between dark and mature tho, bvs in my opinion fell way short of the latter while pretending to be such. While I enjoyed the darker, more realistic overall tone as opposed to marvel’s, the story and characters were terrible and upon rewatching make bvs a mediocre movie at best. And while I hate the light tone and shallower messages of the MCU, the decent stories and mostly exceptional character work make up for that to me
@@bannedwagoner69 The most brutal review I read of BvS at the time said it was like watching a little boy smash two toy figurines together for two hours. I actually like the most (as a whole) but the fight scenes are often so over the top and intense it actually becomes draining to watch after a while.
@@lexbc4751 Bvs was terrible it's just not good idea to have two superhero fight each other when there is no real reason behind it. Superman just fights batman because lex has his mother and batman decides not to kill superman after he says his mums name because his mum has the same name. Batman then acts out of no where like there good friends. Batman has more justification for it as from his point of view superman with general zod who was actually in fault for destroying half of metropolis, it looks like superman doesn't care for the people of earth as long as he defeats the enemy. Apparently the ultimate cut is better but this rivalry still comes out of nowhere. You can compare this to civil war but the thing is Tony stark and Steve Rogers where at each other since avengers Steve thinks tony won't risk his life for anyone while tony believes that Steve's achievements are only because of the super soldier serum. The disagree on the contract tony believes they should be put in check especially since tony is responsible for Ultron, while Steve believes that its best hands are there own. The only big problem for that film is the attack on New York shield was going to nuke new York and your blaming the avengers for the destruction come on man.
I didn't think it would be going in, but the Snyder Cut was indeed a vast improvement, which I watched several times. It should have been what we got in the first place.
People can't see a 4 hour movie you know,they normally don't see 3 and half hour movie,but if it was released,it deserves a billion easily,considering how average other B dollar films are.
Warner Bros. has already screwed DC films since the 70's, they didn't like Donner's take on Superman II, then with the 90's Batman films like Batman and Robin, Batman Forever, then you get the 2007 Justice League Mortal film which also got screwed.
Warner Brothers actually had little interference or input on the Christopher Reeve Superman films. Production hell came all from the Salkind producers. Warner Brothers started interfering with every DC production post Batman Returns.
@@theunknowncommenter725 Batman Forever is actually decent, Warner didnt interfere too much there since I rewatched it for the 1st time in years and it holds up.
The problem with Snyder's directing is that he's more like the edgy comics of the 90s that saw the darkness and edginess of Alan Moore's work in the 80s and sought to emulate that rather than emulate the good storytelling; his storytelling comes across as like that of someone who walked away from Watchmen thinking that Rorschach was supposed to be the good guy.
Listening to drinker, makes me realize that Justice League could be a Great documentary movie... So many layers, conflicting visions, back stabbing executives, delayed productions, it's fall and final rise in the form of the Snydercut.... 🤔
I was always confused as to why they didn't just roll with a bearded superman. Giving superman aa rough grizzled unkempt look especially after coming back from the dead would have made sense.
I don’t know why people didn’t like Batman vs Superman, I thought it was great. I thought it was better then most of what Marvel put out. I honestly don’t understand how the marvel universe reached the heights it did, it was almost like people just liked those movies because it was the popular thing to do and not because they were any good, similar to Avatar. Don’t get me wrong there are some great Marvel movies like Deadpool, Logan, the first Iron Man and few other outliers.
WB tried to have everything without putting the work into getting it. They needed to build their core character base by putting out at minimum a stand alone film for Superman, Batman and Wonder woman all the while droping hints of something bigger on the horizon. Even then I'd say that they should do Aquaman and Flash Stand alone before they even thought of doing their justice league movie. Hell they could have dropped hints about Darkseid being the bigger threat they'll have to deal with giving people something to build hype over. They had what they needed to make it work but they got impatient and ended up dropping the ball.
True, but the problem is that they retroactively attached it to MoS. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy MoS, but be honest with yourself: when you watch it, do you feel that Batman or Wonder Woman or Atlantis exists in its universe? Sure, there are Easter eggs, but nothing to where you _feel_ that a Batman or his rogues gallery exists in this universe. Think about it this way: did you ever _feel_ that Superman or Green Lantern existed in Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight trilogy?
Arguably the best way would have been to start with local, hidden, or secretive characters, like Batman or the Atlanteans, as building blocks, and then build upward in scale to Superman and the world-ending threat of Zod. In fact, fighting Zod could have been their 'Avengers movie'. However, they had no choice but to start with Man of Steel. A court ruled that if they didn't start production on a Superman film (ANY Superman film) by the end of 2011, they could be sued for lost revenue by the copyright holders. There does not appear to have been any master plan or creative vision for a shared universe. Man of Steel was simply a means to an end. Kevin Feige started with the Avengers as a goal, and then worked backwards to produce the MCU.
@@Ebalosus not to mention that Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern was the Original Anchor for WB cinematic universe, then it Was MOS retroactively after GL got slammed by fans critics and the actor himself, which i think he was a good candidate for the wise cracking over confident Hal Jordan, but 1 good actor cant make a good movie if the script and post production team cant get their shit together. and the DC universe has so many issues of a stand alone not acknowledging that other powered people exist although Iron Man also didn't say explicitly they did include S.H.I.E.L.D. into the movie which was a suggestion that other powers were aat work in the world. Which is why i think that the Suicide Squad words as a better premise to build the DC world from, but thats just my opinion. the First suicide squad even with its flaws is a much better world building movie than any other movie they have made.
From the stuff I heard back in 2014-2016, it was actually Zack's and David's idea to make the sequel of Man of Steel be The Dark Knight Returns. The production of Man of Steel itself was actually started right off the heels of The Dark Knight trilogy. It wasn't until the sequel that the story started to morph because of Avengers and the MCU. I think if Snyder was allowed to work his vision, the series would've been more like Lord of the Rings than MCU. The character's don't need full introductions, but something closer to Jackson's method would've been better.
@@jennaherman3859 thinking about it, I would have to agree that Suicide Squad (not necessarily the movie itself, but a movie featuring them) would be a great way to introduce [to audiences] the idea of a shared superhero cinematic universe. It would also help separate it from the MCU, since it would start out with the explicit acknowledgement that multiple superheroes can exist in the same continuity, instead of building up to it like Marvel did.
Incredibly, WB couldn't take a ready made group of awesome characters that actually had greater recognition than Marvel's and do squat with it. Even after such great animation as BTAS, STAS, and the animated Justice League. All phenomenal examples that could've easily been ported to reality.
I think the DCEU would have been more kindly received if it came out in the early 2000s, since the DCEU uses the same kind of structure as Bruce Timm's DCAU (Superman and Batman get solo movies/shows first, team up show/movie comes next, and spin off character solo movies/series follow) If Warner Bros. had been quicker on the gun, this could have happened and it would have been great; but since Marvel got their cinematic universe first, everyone thinks that the MCU (almost every character gets a solo movie before doing big crossovers) is the only way to go.
ZSJL was epic. I will watch it again. JL17 ... looks good overall with some... ... issues. I like Drinker's humor, but MoS, and to a degree BvS, were something awesome to see. More or less, I just want filmmakers to run WB again. Not some telecom or cable jockey, but filmmakers. And I see some of that coming after Ann Sarnoff took over. I just hope Zaslav gets this as well.
WB really, really messed up here. Yes, ZS's vision wasn't for everyone but you know what's worse that launching a moderately divisive franchise? Changing direction mid way through your trilogy and doing it so badly that it comes off more as a Marvel rip-off attempt than anything. Seriously, they have everything set up perfectly for a reboot using Flashpoint. Now, instead...well we sure as shit aren't getting the Flashpoint Paradox...which practically writes itself. Then comes experienced Superman who's more in line with the iteration of Superman everyone is familiar with and you continue on your multiversal franchise.
That's the thing. This wasn't supposed to be an extended universe initially. There's lots of studio interference that wasn't mentioned in the video. It's was supposed to be a superman version of Nolan's dark Knight trilogy. But WB decided that instead of mos 2 they wanted to include batman and cameos for the rest of the jl. Then the plan was to do the jl movies ( 3 initially then it was changed to 2) and even the the league would eventually beat darkseid, the world would be so broken that flash would need to go back in time to change things and this would have reboot the franchise. It was a good plan, nice and tidy. But studio execs put their fingers where they didn't belong and screwed everything. Imagine that patty Jenkins had to fight to keep the scene of wonder woman crossing no man's land in the ww movie. The studio wanted to cut it. Idiots
Snyders vision isn't a problem, it's his inability to write anything other than pretentious, illogical garbage lol. His two best works are adaptations.
I had the misfortune to watch this in the cinema and felt compelled to leave early, the only thing that stopped me was that my son had fallen asleep !!!. The only other film that evoked the flee response that was that cinematic turd, The Last Jedi.
For me, Justice League has remained one of the most disappointing movies of all time. I grew up watching the DCAU, the original Justice League and Justice League Unlimited shows being my all time favorites from the franchise. I still very much hold it up in high regard, and believed that the same treatment for the characters there would be applied to Justice League. That couldn’t be any further from the truth, and after hearing all of the stuff that went on behind the scenes, I’m only more disappointed. So much potential and it was wasted both times. To me, Justice League was the last straw to write off the DCEU. If they couldn’t even get that right, then what can they?
They could have easily reused one of the plot threads from the DCAU and I don't think anyone would have complained. Heck, they could have used the first 3 episodes of Justice League but replaced the Imperium with parademons/Darkseid, explain away Doomsday and Superman's resurection with some Cadmus references, and BAM!
Agreed. I grew up with those shows. They could have used some of the DCAU movies to build a DCEU. The DCEU, even now is a watered down version of what it could be.
@@nailboard6492 After The Last Jedi, if you were expecting Rise of Skywalker to be any better or miraculously save the franchise, being disappointed is on you. Many of us knew it was gonna be awful and by God, they did not disappoint.
I had to go back and check. Iron Man (the first MCU movie, even though they may not have realized just what they had) came out in 2008. By the time Justice League came out in 2017, the MCU had released SEVEN introduction story movies (Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Guardians, Dr. Strange, Spiderman, and Ant Man), and TEN other movies, including the various group movies where the stars were working together or against each other. When Justice League was announced, and the first info about it came out, even I (an old white guy - not the target audience for Brie Larson's movies) thought it sounded like an attempt to catch up to Marvel in one movie, ignoring all the solo movies to introduce the characters. I think I saw Justice League in the theaters, but I'm not positive. (I know I didn't stand in a line for it.) Again for context, 2009 was the ONLY year between 2008 and 2019 that didn't have any Marvel movies, and most of the latter years had 2-3 movies each year. DC didn't read the tea leaves or the trade publications while the MCU was (not quietly) building a fan base and a library of good or great movies (for the most part). I almost wish they had conceded to Marvel for the time being, and then circled back in a year or two. But thanks, Drinker, for the behind-the-scenes info about the movie and its issues. Cheers.
One thing that irks me. People putting Marvel on a pedestal and saying DC isn't "getting it." MCU movies are just fun rides, there's no lasting stakes on or off screen. They KNOW they'll make money. Favreau made a great movie and they just made carbon copies of it with each iteration getting cheaper and cheaper. Sort of like China duplicating stuff and people paying for them cause they're easy to get and cheap. Doesn't last long but cheap. I like that DC is different. I like BatFleck as well as Battinson or Clooney's version because they're all works of art. Their makers had their visions instead of a checklist. The moment they took that checklist from MCU and started applying that to DC, I started losing interest in DC.
"Joker" was clearly not a DC movie, but a loveletter to Scorsese and DeNiro, where, along the way, someone said, "what if the main character is the actual clown villain?" But, if you change the city from Gotham to, 1981...Chicago, and the prominent politician type, just some guy, instead of Thomas Wayne, you have something that is 100% unrelated to DC.
After watching the Snyder cut, I was in awe at just how different the two movies were. I was so disappointed when the theatrical version came out, I thought it was a terrible movie. I loved the Snyder cut and own it in my digital library.
@@animezilla4486 Not really sure, but for my tastes, I prefer the darker, more adult versions of superhero movies. I loved Man of Steel and I love Snyders Justice League.
Joss is actually a great writer/director. So it sucks that his career has been ruined because I was always interested to see what he would do, but treating people poorly while leading will always haunt you eventually. As it should.
People with solid creative vision are always assholes. James Cameron, Spielberg, Tarantino, the Clockwork Orange dude I can't recall his name, etc etc So while they certainly shouldn't be allowed to hurt or sexually harass the cast and crew, part of being a piece of a larger artistic vision is that the artist in charge is going to be a dick 90% of the time. Most people don't mind suffering a bit for greatness but no one likes to suffer for mediocrity.
As much as I hate Zack Snyder's nihilistic sensibilities on DC, Warner should have respected his work by delaying it instead of letting Joss Whedon ruin it all.
@@mdthelegend9882 I think he's perfect for the DC. The snyder cut is okay,I had fun, but, you cannot expect a great film with only 2 movies building up to it. 4 hours is the only way the film would make sense. I'm still pissed, I think man of steel was a great start.
I actually liked MoS & BvS ' ultimate edition, kinda wish WB had the balls to let Zack do his thing and just reboot it once it was done like they always do, but they hiccuped halfway and nobody was happy in 2017, neither the people who liked or hated where the Snyderverse was going
@@ZomgRuler could've been way shorter, but otherwise liked it. I get that it's not to everyone's taste but whatever, I didn't like GOTG and somehow people cried when Thanos snapped away a CGI tree in Infinity War and I'll never understand that
Possible hot take, but I agree with Mahler on the Snyder Cut. It's too dark, way too long, savages many characters, and is filled with plot holes. I think Snyder's style can work with darker super hero films, but you really need somebody to reign him in.
Respectfully, I'd say every single comic book movie in existence is filled with plot holes, it just depends on which ones you prefer to tolerate lol. I actually feel one can argue that Snyder Cut has very good explanation and context for 95 percent of its key plot points. Also, important to note, some of the plot beats were intentionally left open due to its nature of being "chapter 1" of a 3 chapter LOTR style epic. I personally loved that each character in Snyder Cut had a character arc that flowed directly from BvS and grew from there. The film also had a big family and fatherhood theme that resonated with me.
That Titanic analogyis actually more interesting and poignant than many might realize. The Titanic tried to avoid the iceberg at the last moment which caused her to scrape it sideways and rip many compartments open. Had it rammed into it frontally there might have been a chance to stay afloat. Not sure if that's still a accepted theory though.
@@635574 I thought it was that the rivets weren't as well done as they should but let's be honest if you cut as many corners during building as you can and then try to achieve a speed record without any concern of the weather and iceberg reports... That slightly lowers the chance of success.
Patti Jenkins is a hack with a misplaced confidence in her own abilities, and WW84 proved it. That movie was an embarrassing mess, and it did the one thing I thought not possible: it made Gal Gadot look like a dingbat. She deserved better. WW84 knocked her off her well deserved perch at the top of the DC universe, leaving the studio room to move on with someone else at the exact moment Gadot should have had the most leverage. Thanks, Patti! Great work!
I'm really loving these episodes. Judging by all the awful crap that's been coming out the past few years, Production Hell will never end! I'll go away now.
I’d like to point out that the standing ovation from the test screening of BvS was for the director’s cut - which is a great film. Shit hit the fan when they decided to cut half an hour of important scenes, to the detriment of the film’s story
The Extended Cut still is an utter trainwreck and no explanation as to why Batman is a mass murderer now. Just a hint of the whole "Death in the Family" but that would go completely over 99% of the audience's heads.
I like the dark tone. Not every movie has to be happy. All MCU movies past 2013 feel the same aside from the team up movies. There’s hundreds of thousands of different ways story lines go in comics, some sad, happy, dark, & edgy.
