Psychedelics & Early Mormonism Theory Brian Hales Responds 

1:10:50 "I'd love to be able to present my materials without the interruption" In other words, why can't I just monolog while you all agree with me? It sounds like he would prefer to present at a FAIR conference, which is fine, but if you're going to have a discussion, then be prepared to discuss (and listen).

Cool interaction between believing and secular scholars! Love that this conversation is happening.

There certainly is the possibility of The early LDS using these to obtain a greater spiritual experience than modern LDS would culturally allow.

I am curious about a few details. 1) On a scale of 1-10, how certain is Brian that Joseph Smith and the early Saints _did not use_ entheogens? 2) What evidence - hypothetical or producible - would Brian need to see to change his mind? 3) How does Brian view the morality of psychedelics? 4) How does Brian's assertion that we must be specific, granular, replicable, etc., relate to other areas of Mormonism, such as the production of The Book of Mormon with a hat and seer stone?

Interesting! One of my favorite professors from college was absolutely serious when he said he met Jesus while on LSD. After that experience in his young adulthood, he became a devoted Christian and head of the pre-seminary program at my university.

Excellent discussion guys. Steve, your contributions to this were perhaps the most important. These experiences happen, and there are many routes to get there. To argue that entheogens couldn’t have been used shows a gross misunderstanding of the research on psychedelics and mystical experiences. It is also as non-sensical as someone traveling by plane to NYC, and then arguing with you when your returned from your road trip to the city, that you couldn’t have gotten to the same place, because you drove. Despite your protests, this person keeps going on about how it would be impossible to get there by car from where he lives, and none of his neighbors have ever driven to NYC. He doesn’t even want to see the maps showing roads to the city, the gas receipts from your trip, or even look at your photos on Broadway, because it just isn’t possible.

Brian is a bully and clearly on a spectrum that leads him to be insensitive when interacting with others. He wants nothing more than to set himself up as an authority on Mormonism - ironically he is making himself look a fool and doing more harm than good.

Fredrick G Williams was a medical doctor who had access to herbal medicines which by the way, he specialised in.

Loved that the 3 expert guests were able to call out Hales for his blatant false slides. Problem is that rank and file members see Brian’s slides and they believe what he presents even though it’s only 1/2 truths and sometimes outright false. Because of his cultural blinders he doesn’t seem to see a problem with “lying for the lord” Good for the panel for finally standing up and calling B.S on something Brian seems to have made a career out of. His justification of polygamy is just gross and as time passes and more information is accessible his credibility is spiraling. IMO..Him covering his ears and yelling “ Lalalala I can’t hear you” is getting old when anyone presents sound well thought out information that goes against his cultural mindset. I wonder what Michelle Stone thought about this podcast?

Wow amazing interview ! Steven if you can have them back again! Brian kinda got outmatched it appears.

I feel that there is a strong counter argument to the entheogenic theory to be had even if the theory is right, but Brian Hale’s approach to this discussion was incoherent. One should not state that there is no data, but that one is not aware of any such data. One should not ask for data then dismiss the data out of hand… multiple times. One should not present a historian abstaining from a discussion as a rejection of one position in that discussion. He should know that the inconsistent standards he applied to this theory, when applied to his own position would come across to most LDS as anti-Mormon antagonism.

In addition to early LDS and contemporary Pentecostal experiences, Catholic saints throughout history have also had ecstatic visionary experiences that were absent any psychedelic influences.

I love that Hale used “recorded history” statements as if those weren’t created and propagandized to use as testimony

Might be very enlightening for us all to explore the possibilities of using these natural potions for enhancing religious experience. Certainly our ancestors had greater spiritual experiences than modern LDS do.

I think that the jury is still out but Brian Hales assertion that it is impossible or very improbable is just WRONG

Hales introduction to the paper suggests a lack of broad knowledge of research methods and methodology. The scientific method used for example studying medical interventions is completely different to methods used to examine qualitative data (where historical data often fits). He is starting his argument by trying to measure the paper with the wrong tool. As a would be historian he should surely know this? Additionally while he is holding this paper to the standards of the scientific method he doesn't use that standard when presenting his own historical investigations starting from the position for example that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God therefore all the evidence that he believes confirms that is robust evidence while evidence to the contrary cannot be.

As an analytical idealist I believe that psychedelics decrease our disassociation as alters within the mind of God. This wouldn't invalidate the visions, but make them more real.

Brian acts like 1 thing would be the cause. As though Joseph Smith would not try multiple things when he did that with everything his whole life.

🎶One of these things is not like the other”🎶

Bryce's sign in the top right...lol Classic! Good job all!

interesting...

Brian Hales is often impolite in his interactions with people he disagrees with.

What I don’t understand is…whenever psychedelics are used in religious ceremonies, they are used openly and embraced. Why is there no hint of a mention of it if these substances were used by Joseph or others? Why would they not openly embrace the virtues of these substances? Of all the published reports of visions at these early gatherings of saints, I do not understand how not one person reports any side effects which would be concurrent with these visions. When they are used and people have hallucinogenic experiences, do they produce greater religious faith in LDS or Christian theology? If any of these guests have used these drugs, have they had visions that caused them to believe LDS theology? I know many people in my family who have seen things they cannot explain, spiritual things - and they have nothing to do with substances like this. I have had amazing spiritual experiences myself and I have never so much as tasted a drop of alcohol. If these substances can explain these visions, why aren’t users of these substances today dropping everything to join the LDS church and give their lives to it? Why would their use in the early LDS community create this devotion where they risked their lives crossing the plains only to give their lives to a false religion based on one trip? To me, it seems like even very spiritual hallucinogenic experiences do not produce life changing faith like what was described in early church accounts. And by the way…visions did not cease with the early saints. Visions and miracles are still happening, just not perhaps collectively. But I can see why they may have happened more then as priesthood keys were being restored and ushering in the final dispensation.

To answer “why did the visions stop” wouldn’t the answer “because they were lying” make more sense than, they were getting high? I’ve done psychedelics & it’s possible they used them, but to write the BOM while high, which one person seemed to claim, I think is “highly” Unlikely. Is there any evidence they were getting high? Maybe it will come later in the show, without that I would lean on not believing it & it is always possible some had real experiences & others jumped on the bandwagon.

There are bad trips reported though….????

Why does Brian Hales always have slides? I feel like every time he’s on a podcast - he’s showing a slide show when it’s supposed to be a discussion.

Do we have any statements that people found the sacramental wine to be unusually powerful or that Joseph had unusual ways of creating it etc? Other than that it would have been possible do we have evidence?

Classic Hallucinogens and Mystical Experiences: Phenomenology and Neural Correlates “Despite their apparent importance, the unpredictability and low probability of “naturally occurring” mystical-type experiences, whether they occur in religious or non-religious contexts, has made them inherently difficult to study in controlled empirical research.”

I've thought more about @brianhales8971 responses in this video. I'd summarize it with an example of different situation: - Perhaps performance enhancing drugs were used for these athletes to preform at a marked difference from standard. - Brian: No see those people were running, we're talking about underwater synchronized swimming. - Ok, but we know that these chemicals can effect max VO2 and performance in any athletic ability. - Show me examples of the exact underwater move done again with those performance drugs. - People dont do that same choreography no days. - Brian: See checkmate you cant prove that God didn't just give them ability to do that routine. I know its stupid. But if you reframe the series of logistical parameters of the conversation into any other context you'd give some latitude into what we're discussing. But because it confronts a cornerstone of dissonance, its really tempting to retreat and move the goal posts. I don't understand how the fallback of "It must have been what they described as by the historical evidence" is a good anchor point of understanding reality in the ocean of reality we live in TODAY with other people who can also confirm objectively false things of the past. IE: By the historical evidence, there really were witches in Salem. Just look at the testimonies! Rational humans: Well, i can see how they might have considered that even in their own minds thats what they experience and they viewed that as objective reality but we can observe with context today that they were mistaken even if from their view they were being truthful. We should probably be careful in the other morals and experiences they derived and perhaps use this as a way to view into the human condition weather pharmacologically or sociologically created. My issues with Brian generally stem from being stuck in historical details, laboring those details to be extremely pronounced and drawn out, and then standing back and saying its solved without resolving the function of any other part of reality. While ignoring all other context of everything today and that it doesn't fit the function of any science, sociological structs, morals (even by modern LDS standards) etc. Basically. Touch grass. Scientifically speaking.

Brian made himself an absolute fool with this carry on

i had some respect for brian hales before listening to this

Hale's Quinn slide was downright laughable (even more so than his other assertions). Quinn's quote did not state what Hales claimed it did. Hales is ridiculous.

I completely understand their arguments when it comes to individual use and individual psychedelic-induced visions/halucinations, however, for groups to experience the same vision at the same time is not something we can remotely see in history. You can easily argue individuals - even in positions of leadership in a faith - that were influenced by drugs. You can say the types of visions expressed in the LDS history could be similar to the types of experiences documented on an individual level. Alex, Cody, and Bryce could not demonstrate in any way how the early Saints experienced the same visions by way of chemicals/psychedelics/etc. This is merely an attempt to extrapolate the experiences of some individuals over time to apply against church leaders and church members that experienced visions. And, they only pull from only the positive outcomes from entheogens. Similarity in religious and drug-induced experiences - again only pulling from the positive - is not evidence of cause. I've never been on drugs, yet have had many instances of speaking in tongues while on my mission and personal revelation between thoughts and dreams that were 100% of the Spirit. I understood words and spoke words I had never heard or read before the moments they came into conversation. I saw non-LDS people completely understand one of my mission companions that I barely even understood because his German was so broken and he kept mixing in English words. I have had dreams about friends who've lost their parents in the moments they lost their parents - with no reason to even suspect it was happening. I was able to reach out to them before the news was even out about their parents' passing and offer comfort. My oldest daughter once missed saying "Goodbye" to me and - at 4 yrs old - she knelt and prayed at the back door that I would come home so she could say goodbye. I was two blocks from home when I had the strong impression to go back home. I was running late and kept telling myself I had nothing to go home for, but the impression was so strong I went home anyway, figuring I would figure out why when I got there because I had no idea what I could have forgotten. I openned the door to a very surprised daughter who seemed quite shocked that her prayer was being answered. I've experienced the dark and the light in this world - without using any substances to aid in my experiences. Without even as much as an OTC allergy med or pain med in my system, I've had incredible experiences in the Temple. They cited the question of why the drop-off of experiences at some time in early LDS times, yet fail to reflect on the parallels to how many more incredibly spiritual and visionary moments are documented in the times of Christ and immediately following Christ that reduced over time as the church became more established. As Moses lead Israel out of Egyt, several incredible and miraculous events were experienced by all, yet such miracles and visions did not continue. There is a clear history of heightened experiences in the beginning of dispensations of God bringing revelation to Prophets and their immediate followers. WINE as an agent... They argued that, however, the Word of Wisdom removed wine from consumption even as part of the Sacrament. If wine was the ideal agent to mix psycedelics into and was how Joseph was making these group experiences occur, why would he remove such an effective method from the equation?

Those guys obviously read The Immortality key 😂😂😂

It doesn't always take a drug to get a religious or other fervour going.When my husband was in college we got involved with a pyramid sales scheme company and at their meetings they got people so excited they were standing on their chairs singing Wesware Wesware were going to me millionaires 🤣 There were people we brought (and we brought bus loads because my former husband was very charismatic)that I NEVER would have thought would do this but they did. 🤣 And we did this on Sunday evenings with mostly LDS friends. 😂 Groups like the preppers that Chad Daybell was part of were totally convinced they needed to set up a camp for the end of the world. Chad got sooooo crazy believing he was having visions that he murdered and buried two kids in his backyard because they had been taken over by demons according to him. Maybe they were on some kind of drug but I don't think so. When you get certain personalities like Chad Daybell who tell people they had a near death experience and now have full vision of the other side people will follow them no matter what. Chad Daybell had visions of his previous lives on this earth and convinced others that they had lived previous lives also. Look what Hitler did and how many he convinced to follow him. There have been charismatic people that have led groups of people to even commit suicide. Lots of people are just totally gullible.

You see what you want to see when you are Tripping. Blake see's spiritual stuff because he wants too. My crowd never saw spirits or visions. I did interpret things wrongly. My friend ate too much candy and threw up red cinnamon candies outside on the snow seconds after he came outside. I was smoking while deep into a trip and thought OMG my friend threw up blood everywhere! Blood dripping off snowy bushes, it was panic moment. I rushed him inside and everyone is like he just hurled all of our cinnamon candy because of a stomach ache.. LOL We see what we want to see.

Brian's mad. lol

Just like Brian is wrong on Joseph's lying for the lord on polygamy, he denies the reality of the day Joseph lived in where the psychedelic substances were plentiful and did not have the stigma they have today. This continues to erode confidence in all things connected to modern Mormonism.

Bringing up Quinn here is irrelevant

I am Mormon...not as in true blue mainstream but as in JS was a prophet , BOM is inspired but not academic literalism...believe in mystical experience of Judaism and indeed Yeshua. Its obvious that secret sacred processes are used by prophets to me, and that certain substances can be inspired to be used for inspiration etc. There are a new form of Christianity and also Mormonism emerging, that is arising from a pre Constantine Christianity, from a somewhat rebellious tradition of second temple Judaism restoring first temple and pre first temple Messianic tradition, a more universal faith system with Yeshua as the primary human/divine transmission. Its embarrassing when academic types such as Hales will not admit thru the historical tools and academic tools the fair clear study of ANY topic. Indeed it is the academic rigoristic process that will reveal the truth about the outward truths of all faiths. Yes the inner portions will always be spiritual. The Power and authority ie the effectiveness of a unified belief system that has the power to change the world is within Christianity and Mormonism , not the leftover portions we see today, but found in the past and in truth. The whole polygamy thing is an embarrassment indeed as I have not seen the gnostic marriage to Christ yet mentioned nor the type of polygamy that was in certain circumstances a woman's right...not a mans choice. Sociologists and academics are also not doing their part explaining the type of marriages, sealings and ritual ceremonies of JS timeframe....not Brighams which is a totally dif thing, even admitted to be so by the leftover Mormon women after JS death. Both ritualistic substances and sacred rituals of the past are woefully pushed under the rug in a fearful presentism philosophy in Mormonism. Peace. Indeed this was prophesied, that only a shadow of the truth would remain in certain circumstances..and we see it true.

Brian thinks it take 10 psilocybin mushrooms to produce intoxication 😂😂 Brian please stick to that if you ever decide to try them. Most people’s thresholds start around 2 grams. You are a terrible scholar

Magic mushrooms? Let's have a panel discussion. Polygamy? Let's just have Brian on to trash Michelle.

I find much of Brian Hale's work to be intellectually dishonest.

How many trips did this Vermont boy take to Arizona to load up on peyote cactus???

I honestly wanted to pull my [non-existent] hair out listening to this. It was logical fallacy after logical fallacy from Brian. And you could tell (if you know anything about psychedelics) that he knows almost nothing about them. It’s like he did a 15 minute Google search on the topic. He isn’t qualified to even be discussing them.

I have always considered the psychedelics angle to be among the most ridiculous and far fetched theories ever put forth. Brian was out numbered here, which didn't seem balanced.

I don't believe Joseph Smith used drugs to get visions which is witchcraft and forbidden in YHWH's Torah, but Brian's response is not a good one. If you claim you can reproduce what Joseph Smith did, please start publishing the revelations you are getting. Revelations from YHWH Elohim and having a "trip" are two very different things. Brian you said you presented everything earlier in the recording, and now at the end you claim you didn't even get to present a third of it, seriously you need to grow up.