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Puerto Rico Home Buying Experience | Comparison Buying Two Homes in Palmas del Mar 

JenThereDoneThat
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Home buying experience in Palmas del Mar, Puerto Rico
Ameena shares her experience buying two homes in Palmas del Mar, Puerto Rico. She and her family purchased a new build condo using bank financing, now a year later she completed the purchase of another home in Puerto Rico. This interview covers the purchasing process for new build condo, another home purchase, bank financing versus cash, home inspections, and set-up for utilities.
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10 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 139   
@JoshIsOnAMission
@JoshIsOnAMission 3 года назад
Oh man. As a realtor on the island I understand her pain so much. Lately, all my deals take at least 90-120 days to close. Will say that usually small lenders are usually faster than bigger banks though.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
That is good to know! These wait times are crazy!!
@hamletrivero
@hamletrivero 3 года назад
Great video, been following you for a while. Planning a move in August have to say am renting for 6 months to a year my wife and I are retired planning to buy cash. Thanks Jen
@orionobolon4380
@orionobolon4380 3 года назад
Takes like 6 mos to finance with first bank. Every month they will ask for the same documents. The closing date is not the closing date. Appraisal like 513 bucks. 3 weeks to hook up electricity. Just saying mentally prepare yourself so you dont stress out. Off loading for a flip might be tricky. Decided to just rent. Its not a high appreciation market. Socially i lived in a lot friendlier places just fyi. Dont get me wrong the friends you make are real people and i have learned a lot from their kindness and help, but most distrust foreigners. You will see. I remember just moving here and some woman just came up and started screaming at me because i couldnt answer her question. At that time i was in friendly mode just trying to learn and respect. Now i know better. Its kind of like new yorker island.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Sounds great!
@FincaBelleVue
@FincaBelleVue 3 года назад
Love the videos! Her home inspector did the same thing that our home inspector did. We bought a 4 year old home in Rio Grande and the process took 45 days to close via Coop Las Piedras. There was some minor items that needed fixing. The inspector pointed them out and the seller left us pieces of furniture that more than made up for the minor fixes we had to make. Keep up the great work!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
That is awesome!
@mariacaballero3765
@mariacaballero3765 3 года назад
Great content. But FYI a lot of people don’t have good experience using Banco Popular. Hidden fees. Just what relatives told me. Lindo día!
@LaEscuelaDelEncanto
@LaEscuelaDelEncanto 3 года назад
What bank do your relatives recommend?
@mariacaballero3765
@mariacaballero3765 3 года назад
@@LaEscuelaDelEncanto oriental bank
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Banking in PR is an extreme sport! Way too many hidden fees.
@BestFitSquareChannel
@BestFitSquareChannel 2 года назад
Dang! Water! Electric!!! Employment verification! 7 months! More... by comparison I was very fortunate, although my experiences up north were different... much smoother.
@ds2911
@ds2911 2 года назад
I wish You had updated (today’s) information
@rosalindsanchez3168
@rosalindsanchez3168 Год назад
I like listening to your videos. I inherited my dads house in Hormigueros and do need to find a lawyer to transfer ownership
@ruthcr8839
@ruthcr8839 3 года назад
What a great and informative video ladies! Thank you. Be safe.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Thanks for watching!
@chuckt9077
@chuckt9077 3 года назад
Thanks for vid jen. Cheers 🥂
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
You’re welcome 😊
@raquelmercado1762
@raquelmercado1762 3 года назад
I really enjoy ur videos. Thank you for sharing.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Glad you like them! Thanks for watching.
@nesq4104
@nesq4104 3 года назад
That story on getting the utilities is absolutely insane. Very informative. I can't imagine someone saying you can't have electricity because too many people in the community have electricity. Omg.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
I know! They are starting to replace the old meters with new digital meters, so hopefully it will not be such a problem in the future. But, who would think to ask about the lead time for an electric meter?!?
@nesq4104
@nesq4104 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat yea. Things we assume are standard practice isnt tge case Here. I just moved to island and got off phone with electric company after this video lol. It really is a process and a wait. But I will be a renter for now
@jfender8023
@jfender8023 3 года назад
reminds me of the millions of Texas with no power for a week while it was 8F
@christianheinbockel1537
@christianheinbockel1537 3 года назад
Jenn! Love your channel. We are moving to Mayaguez just waiting on our closing date now. This segment on home buying experiences has been invaluable. Mil gracias for what you do and maybe we'll be seeing you soon!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Good luck!! Glad this is helpful.
@andith
@andith 3 года назад
Thanks! Good information for the ones who are moving back to the island or just moving there.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Glad it was helpful!
@jondepaul2372
@jondepaul2372 2 года назад
Thanks Jen. Your videos are so informative and you are so energetic and fun. My family is looking forward to our first trip to PR (Palmas del Mar) end of month. Can't wait!
@MILLIETRINIDAD
@MILLIETRINIDAD 3 года назад
The solar system are great i have a in my home that is better
@robertocancel8209
@robertocancel8209 3 года назад
thank you beautiful girls 💛
@adagarayua1742
@adagarayua1742 3 года назад
Wow, I am so glad to find your blog. How sweet! I am Puerto Rican and I am almost 80 now. Of course am jealous of you living in Cabo Rojo. Ready to move back to a Retirement Home now, in the West of the Island. Enjoy living there!!!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Thank you. I hope you are able to move back soon.
@LaEscuelaDelEncanto
@LaEscuelaDelEncanto 3 года назад
Yes, please do an hour long rant on propane vs diesel
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
HAHA! Be careful what you ask for.
@FincaBelleVue
@FincaBelleVue 3 года назад
Also, I was born and raised in PR and now I travel back and forth to the mainland. Covid has been a challenge. One thing I feel is good is there are so many expats here on PR fixing up properties and making the island better. I know some locals get upset, but maybe this will light a fire under their ass and see that they too can fix their homes and make changes that will improve the island. It takes one person to start the change. 🇵🇷
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Good point!
@WilliamMaldonado100
@WilliamMaldonado100 Год назад
If they got the perks and tax breaks that colonizing Americans get then Native Puerto Ricans will be able to fix there home don't just tell half of the truth
@lolamento7058
@lolamento7058 3 года назад
Can you recommend a good realty lawyer? 😌
@cryptowing8399
@cryptowing8399 3 года назад
Wow that is good content...Surprises when buying,,,things you would take for granted in the US...Simple answer is dont assume ask questions!
@RossEnzo
@RossEnzo 10 месяцев назад
Gosh was the condo in Solarea?! Infinite problems with that community!
@alexgomez7452
@alexgomez7452 3 года назад
omg Ameena 😍😍😍😍
@jackmead6166
@jackmead6166 3 года назад
Great Information!!! We did not buy but inherited....... This process is just as Convoluted......Title, Will, and Legally prepare all assets for protection, and prepare for the future!!! It is worth the efforts!!!!!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
That is crazy! An inherited property should be the easy part, right?!?!
@jackmead6166
@jackmead6166 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat You would think it would be easier but in this process The habit on the island is to not do anything so as you have stated before there's lots of things that don't get processed after people die in the past so to move forward you have to correct everything from the past years to move forward to correct the names. If you had someone who passed away more than 20 years ago then you run into a problem of there being no active records.......Yes, death certificates but if they need to do a property search and or tax search it's near impossible........... We are in the middle of the process and to be honest my spouse's father passed away close to 30 years ago and the government has not been able to produce the appropriate forms to move forward and to change the property certificates. The death certificate does not work in all aspects. Poco Poco..... Frustrating..........
@Gardenstaterawmilk
@Gardenstaterawmilk 3 года назад
@@jackmead6166 oh gosh, I had land stolen from me and sold to someone else. I don't even know where to start.😫
@octaviodelaserna2007
@octaviodelaserna2007 3 года назад
No one wants to say it, so I will. The Bankers down there got a racket going on! If your not in their pocket or in their loop expect a turbulent experience as noted in the video. Jen, great video it sparks good decision making prior to making a purchase! Puerto Rico is beautiful and it’s people, enjoy! Salut🍹
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Good point!
@JessicaDessus
@JessicaDessus 2 года назад
My husband and I have been trying to purchase in Puerto Rico for the last year we were under contract in February we spent a month on the island and the craziest thing happened the owner only owned 1 acre of the land and the next-door neighbor owned his acre and he owned a persons house unknowingly and it was listed in the cream that way so very different. And if we didn’t ask for a map of the land a lawyer said that the owner would’ve never known that he didn’t even on all of his land. but we’re in the process of trying to purchase again I love your channel thank you for all the info.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 2 года назад
That sounds like a nightmare! Glad you found out before closing.
@rebeccagutierrez1960
@rebeccagutierrez1960 3 года назад
Yes, things are a bit different here in Puerto Rico. What I would like to add is that they wanted to change my last name right in the middle of the closing. I said what?!? In Puerto Rico one carries one's father's surname and then immediately after one's mother's surname. However, for over 30 something years I was using my husband's last name. But, even The very attorney we hired during the closing wanted me to use my father's and mother's last name only. I blatantly refused! This caused a bit of a delay as the secretary had to change my last name on some of the paperwork. In the end, I won. I was able to sign off every document during the closing with my first name and my married last name only. Beware of this! If they continue insisting, tell them to show you legal proof that you need to do this. If they can't come up with anything don't let them touch your surname.
@kimmykun
@kimmykun 3 года назад
Yeah, Puerto Rico isn't set up for women taking their husband's name or for people just to have one surname period. Neither of those things are the norm here. At all.
@elgrandisimojoe
@elgrandisimojoe 3 года назад
the same happened to me in reverse... DMV in the US wanted to mame with my mothers maiden name just because its the last word they see on the name line.. luckily for me a hispanic DMV attendant nearby eyed me giving me the hint that she would correct the form.. the Karen of the DMV counter was just intransigent.
@LoriGuttilla
@LoriGuttilla 3 года назад
I REPEAT. ALL SPANISH SPEAKING COUNTRIES HAVE THE SAME RULES, about women keeping their maiden names. Not just Puerto Rico. Every Spanish speaking countries have the same rules, when it comes to women and their maiden names.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
The last name (or multiple last names) can definitely be a challenge with medical and legal paperwork. Glad it worked out in the end for you.
@joanndiaz3425
@joanndiaz3425 3 года назад
Your legal name is as it appears on your social security card.
@elgrandisimojoe
@elgrandisimojoe 3 года назад
Jen, let your interviewees speak.. you don't let her finish her sentences. Be self aware
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
🌺
@LuisJavier.
@LuisJavier. 3 года назад
You are better prepared now to purchase a place than what you were before. I wish you the best of luck. Also, if the home needs repairs is the buyers' responsibility to fix them in order for the bank to approve the loan.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
So true!
@xiomanaxoxoxo3212
@xiomanaxoxoxo3212 2 года назад
It's Pwerrtttoo rrrico .
@TheRetirementality
@TheRetirementality 3 года назад
Hey, I have a bunch of videos on buying houses in Puerto Rico. I'm here until Saturday if you want to come see what its like to do a remodel in Puerto Rico. I'm just down the road from you.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
I have watched many of your videos! They are so helpful. Great content!
@TheRetirementality
@TheRetirementality 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat I'm glad to hear that. I had lunch with Diane Cohn yesterday and we were talking about you.
@judithmorales26
@judithmorales26 2 года назад
Can u recommend a good biz lawyer n a lawyer for home buying both in puerto rico. Thanks
@raquelmercado1762
@raquelmercado1762 3 года назад
Hi Jen! Just started watching your videos. Im so happy i found you. I just inherited my parents house in Salinas,P.R. along with all my nephews and nieces,because my brothers have passed on. The house is sitting there,because i live in the states, I'm clueless to alot of things. I'm learning from you. I've heard that it's very complicated to sell when so many people are involved. Any other info. you can share in the inheritance topic? Planning to go in July to find an attorney. Would you be able to recommend one?
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Welcome! Inheritance makes it difficult, make sure you get all of the nieces and nephews in agreement on a plan for the house. Send me a private message on facebook.com/jentheredonethat or instagram.com/jentheredonethat/ so I can send you more information.
@geraldonanohernandez6411
@geraldonanohernandez6411 3 года назад
Hi Jen, the new build in Cabo Rojo would you share? Just curious because my wife and i are looking in three places right now. Cabo Rojo, Rincon and Aguada.
@swvaroot
@swvaroot 3 года назад
I hope to come to PR and start a search for a house. VA loan, about $333,000. Maybe beach view. First look for an honest, bright AGENT. Can you get hurricane insurance ??
@robertmelendez3166
@robertmelendez3166 3 года назад
Jen I'm Robert from California. Really I was born in Santurce. My mother is from San Lorenzo and mi papi is from Luquillo. Presently my mother lives in Luquillo. I'm considering retiring in PR. However there is this life in California that I have created. Anyhow great info videos God Bless!!
@Lauralaey5
@Lauralaey5 3 года назад
Stay in California, and visit PR that's what I do. Less hassle
@robertmelendez3166
@robertmelendez3166 3 года назад
@@Lauralaey5 yes I'm going to Luquillo in July. I go once, twice a year. Absolutely beautiful!!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Many people from California love Rincon, you should check it out when you visit.
@robertmelendez3166
@robertmelendez3166 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat I'm good with Luquillo and maybe Palmas Del Mar as well. But my mother lives one mile from the beaches there!! I love Fajardo as well!!!
@carmengeorgeweddings3906
@carmengeorgeweddings3906 2 года назад
I am in shock. No water line or electrical meter? WTF?
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 2 года назад
Definitely verify before closing on the property!
@arcadiojimenez8069
@arcadiojimenez8069 3 года назад
Thank You Jen. Your video's are very helpful. My wife and I are considering moving to Puerto Rico in 2023 and look forward to your continued information regarding the Island.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Happy to help!
@edchamberlain874
@edchamberlain874 2 года назад
Hi Jenn we are in the process of trying to buy a lot in Luquillo and we found your channel a few weeks ago. The seller's lawyer has been working on getting the clear title ,are question is do we need a separate lawyer? We've really enjoyed watching your Channel you've given us such great information about the beautiful island of Puerto Rico.😊 Thanks Ed & Judy
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 2 года назад
You may want your own lawyer to review documents and represent you. Only one lawyer is needed for the tile search and property register.
@edchamberlain874
@edchamberlain874 2 года назад
Hi Jenn thank you for responding back to us about the lawyer. Judy and I would love to take you to lunch or dinner the next time we there.😋
@007Jay100
@007Jay100 2 года назад
Jen who is your lawyer?
@vicd12345able
@vicd12345able 2 года назад
Any recommendations on what bank to use for 100% loan for a lot in Puerto Rico? I have a down payment but can't come up with the reminder untill I retire in 2 years. I would love to buy something now and pay it slowly but banks in PR only offer 30% loans to buy land.
@FidelHimself
@FidelHimself 3 года назад
Where is the best internet + cell coverage? I imagine San Juan and Dorado
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Coastal areas mave pretty good coverage, the problem is behind mountains and secluded areas.
@er5650
@er5650 3 года назад
Even if u didnt buy im sure u saved money enough.. So you still good.. Im renting in NY and im saving also.. Once a good home comes alone you be ok.. Im still looking but im still saving.. Once i find the perfect to buy n plan a family i be ok.. So you good at moment.. Dont stress be bless.. Hugs.. PS..you n friends will be invite... Cook out
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Good point. Patience is the best strategy for me and home buying.
@er5650
@er5650 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat hey girl.. I get happy to see your reply.. Im in Dallas boarding another plane to San Antonio, tx for a wedding.. Sunday i be in NY.. Sleepless City... Be safe
@er5650
@er5650 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat im planing to take a trip to PR after 19th...keep me posted for in case i may not need the letter for the negative result on covid.. Be safe.. I will have both vaccine shot. Peace & Love
@er5650
@er5650 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat i have a question dear... If i had already taken 2 moderna vaccine.. Do i still need the letter proofing negative of covi-19 test? Let me know.. I planning to go to PR after 19th ... Let me know iF u have any info.. Be safe young lady ...oxoxoxo
@williamhvx
@williamhvx 3 года назад
Let me know if helps
@tutti1105
@tutti1105 2 года назад
what bank did you use, I am in Miami, Fl and need a bank to approve me
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 2 года назад
Talk to a mortgage lender, they can help you.
@Dolphinoneb
@Dolphinoneb 3 года назад
See a few of your vids, not bad, but being a local, living in the states , you have lived there for over 5 years , you should be able to pronounce “ Puerto Rico like a local by now”
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
No matter how I pronounce anything, it is wrong to some ears.
@michelegentile8888
@michelegentile8888 3 года назад
Have you ever been to Rincon? How is it to live in Rincon,?Would you buy or rent a house or condo in Puerto Rico?
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Rincon is a popular surfer town, I usually go for the whale watching and awesome restaurants. It a cool town, but I actually prefer Aguadilla beaches and less expensive accommodations. I absolutely plan to buy a home in Puerto Rico (probably a house, but there are nice condos, too).
@alciraproenza-collazo
@alciraproenza-collazo 3 года назад
How much were the properties
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
To respect privacy, we did not discuss purchase price for either properties.
@nildapt4536
@nildapt4536 3 года назад
Que se pasan vendiendo la Isla?
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Rentas tributarias de la propiedad y vivir en Puerto Rico. CRIM, sales tax, income taxes, etc.
@jamesmibiker1237
@jamesmibiker1237 3 года назад
1st off make sure your realtor has everyone's permission to sell the house you are intrested in mine did not a total waste of time was going to Sue her but we were compensated also your kids are in control of the sale of that house if one of the parents are deceased very nuts but I finally did buy a house had at 15 years now another joke 7 years in CRIM sends me bills for taxes It took me 3 years to get rid of the taxes primary residence do not have to pay them on one property they live in other than that be patient and wait forever lol
@elgrandisimojoe
@elgrandisimojoe 3 года назад
Im sorry.. but Joint tenats in common (PR, most civil code places in the world) makes WAY more sense than Joint Tenats with Rights of Survivorship (Most of US and Common Law countries). When you married and live in PR you are a Sociedad de Bienes Gananciales - Community Property Society..... We in PR dont have those tabloid issues with the Old guy marrying the youngling and living the rest of the family out... Remember Nuclear family for PR is whatever you call "extended family"... Also in Joint Tenants in Common (again, not crazy and perfectly reasonable) the wife or husband owns HALF of whatever the society made, again... SUPER makes sense... Also, you are able to will 1/3 of your portion to your wife/husband, so she would have 67%+... also, per las in PR.. the kids cant kick the wife out and make her sell to get their half (the deceased persons portion) Look around, not everything is like the US and not everything form the US is the same... also, adapt. Its a new place with rules that are cultural historical because those were the laws that needed to be made for that society. I bet you didn't know half of this but here you were giving your uneducated opinion... something gring-os do to much of.
@jamesmibiker1237
@jamesmibiker1237 3 года назад
@@elgrandisimojoe Hello. I knew most of that and it's crazy the kids and kick you to the curb basically lol terrible
@elgrandisimojoe
@elgrandisimojoe 3 года назад
@@jamesmibiker1237 well looky you, so knowledgeable/ I stand corrected.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
The inheritance laws are crazy! A good lawyer is an absolute must!
@williamtorres6320
@williamtorres6320 3 года назад
Banco Popular is not that popular in Puerto Rico. They are one of the worst banks to work with people buying a house. The constant calls to your job are one of the complaints people complain about.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Agreed!
@hermesotaku201
@hermesotaku201 3 года назад
Can I get a referral for that home inspector?
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Roberto 787-316-2171
@hermesotaku201
@hermesotaku201 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat thanks
@leewhitaker2174
@leewhitaker2174 3 года назад
Hello Jen! We're purchasing a home in PR. I would love to be able to contact the home inspector your friend used. What is his/her contact information?
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Roberto (787) 316-2171
@er5650
@er5650 3 года назад
Why it took that long to close into the Condo?? Wow.. I be homeless.. Then no water connection.. Jesus christ!!!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
Services move at a different pace in Puerto Rico.
@er5650
@er5650 3 года назад
@@JenThereDoneThat oh.. I didnt know.
@nildapt4536
@nildapt4536 3 года назад
Estoy harta que todos estos extranjeros de krj se muden a PR mientras el boricua tiene que salir de su Isla.
@Lauralaey5
@Lauralaey5 3 года назад
Well somebody has to move there, to keep the island going.
@manuelcaraballo9983
@manuelcaraballo9983 3 года назад
Es un plan de gentrificación no nos podemos dejar que esta gente nos saquen de lo nuestro
@erikamrg27
@erikamrg27 3 года назад
Aja, no sabía que eran tantos, pero en este canal a cada rato alguien dice que se está mudando para acá. Ya en Rincón ni se puede hablar español porque no lo entienden :/ Deberían regular más a los extranjeros y estadounidenses y quitarle tantas regulaciones y requisitos a los de aquí.
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
🌺
@jess97724
@jess97724 9 месяцев назад
@@Lauralaey5 Then it should be the Puertorican's not the gringos.
@jess97724
@jess97724 9 месяцев назад
Please stop taking the Puertorican's land away from them it belongs to them & if you mainlanders move to PR then you should know the language & speak it just like if they come to the U.S. they have to learn English.
@josearce3233
@josearce3233 3 года назад
you seem complaining so what you expect it is not america lady
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
🌺
@josearce3233
@josearce3233 3 года назад
your in Pue r to Rico not your land and this land is
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
🌺
@josearce3233
@josearce3233 3 года назад
and stealing property
@carlosmarcano8924
@carlosmarcano8924 3 года назад
Who is stealing property? Don't you heard that she bought the properties!
@JenThereDoneThat
@JenThereDoneThat 3 года назад
A legal sale that both parties agree to is not stealing.
@jess97724
@jess97724 9 месяцев назад
@@JenThereDoneThat Well actually it is you both are stealing the Puertorican's land & they're not too crazy about it. They were here first so let them have their land back!!!!
@jess97724
@jess97724 9 месяцев назад
@@carlosmarcano8924 It's still stealing or taking it away from them they were here first & they should respect that. Too many people coming from the mainland then the houses go up in price & the local Puertorican's can't afford it. Not fair to them.
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