12:05 I thought it was because the combination of her singing pitch and the piano managed to hit the resonance frequency of the glass behind her, not the piano itself being rigged. There used to be a common joke about Opera singers being able to cause glass to shatter.
I'm reminded of a talk I once heard about stealth games, which are, in this argument, puzzle games of another sort. This person argued that (using your terminology) that good stealth games should be problem games, not puzzle games, and I think they made a good point. Consider the difference between your average Call of Duty stealth mission (in which some guy literally tells you what to do every step of the way) and the stealth sections of Batman Arkham games, where you have a huge array of tools, an open area and the objective "secure this room." I know which one I would rather play over and over.
This is one reason I love the Dishonored games so much. They give you the tools and available routes, but it's up to you how you use those tools and which route you take.
12:17 Well, actually, he provided her with a song to rehearse that would cause her to sing that glass-shattering high note. ...what? I liked this game.
I'm glad you made this vid. I have been trying since I was a teen (45 now) to explain why I don't enjoy puzzle games but love other games which people think are puzzle games. I didn't know how to artuculate it other than to say I don't like games with only one or few solutions. The "I see what you did there" moment when you solve a puzzle doesn't give me much pleasure at all. But working out tough problems...yeah that is exactly my cup of tea. And now if I can't explain it well I can direct them to your vid.
Something I've noticed about puzzle games is that I can often work out a solution by looking for Chekov's guns. If I see a platform in a puzzle, odds are that I or an object will need to be on it at some point, and that lets me significantly narrow my search space. In puzzle games with role-play elements like Portal, it's not a great feeling when I solve a puzzle in this way, but not enough to get me to stop. As for problem games, I've also never completed a Zachtronics game because I am actually a programmer, and don't need the game to get the same rush. Though, the minimalist computer architecture in TIS-100 was pretty cool from a computer science perspective. On the other hand, my style of play in modded minecraft is to set myself a challenge and figure out which of the 100+ mods and 1000s of items will help me achieve it, which is perhaps the purest form of problem game, and it's kept me hooked for years.
1:20 I actually never found that apple. Since there was no apple on the tree I assumed there must be something else. So I compared the tree to the panel and found the difference. I really thought this was the intended solution until now. I had that several times in The Witness, often I solved things to find the reason as to why I could solve it that way after actually solving it. I can't help but feel that this is partially bad design, but then again it's a puzzle game, you're not supposed to immediately know the solution.
That IS the intended way of solving the puzzle. Seeing the Apple cut down later is just some sort of nice world building. You CAN see it before you figure out the puzzle and have a nice “aha!” Moment if that makes things click, or see it after you solve it and be like “oh that explains why this one had a broken branch”, but really the puzzle is noticing a branch is on the panel and not on the tree. I did experience what you’re talking about in one area though, with the mark in the quarry that undoes one “mistake” you make. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out what it was, and its introductory puzzles out of all of the ones in the game were the poorest in my opinion, and gave me no concept of what it really was doing.
4:43. Almost everybody's factory requires more Iron Gear Wheels... or electronic circuits... or both... Time to set up 20 more mines...and build a new solar field while I'm at it... and maybe getting some more oil... Please send help...
This is actually a very useful distinction for me. I was trying to figure out what exactly I wanted from certain types of games (and also to define what exactly 'programming games' and Zachtronics games are subgenres of), and it looks like what I'm thinking of is what you call 'problem' games. I really do like problem solving/engineering games, but I feel it could also be very compelling mixed into games largely focused on other forms of challenge (the customization in Mechwarrior for example, or the way a lot of Minecraft modpacks give redundant tools to allow your inner perfectionist to spontaneously come up with optimization challenges), because you get the opportunity to set yourself problems in service to your own greater-scope goals. I'm especially interested in the idea of multiplayer games that allow problem-solving/engineering gameplay in service to group goals (such as the design and production of vehicles/other gear based on available resources and the requirements of the conflict in a team-vs-team wargame), but there doesn't seem to be much of that out there, and most of what exists seem to be mods or alternate ways of playing primarily-sandbox-based games such as Space Engineers or Minecraft. The big challenges seem to be how to pose problems under circumstances that are different enough for each player and game that memorizing a dominant strategy is less important than learning the mechanics and adapting to the new circumstances quickly, as well as the inherent difficulty of balancing competitive/cooperative games allowing both asymmetric playstyles and interaction with a world simulation complex enough to pose deep engineering problems.
Great video! These remind me of Game Makers toolkit in the best way possible. Due to discovering I really like immersive sim esque open ended level design I think I prefer problems.
I was very much reminded of Mark's video on puzzles-as-extended-tutorials by this one. Perhaps not so coincidentally, both are my current favorites from both channels.
@Mitchell Spendlove i think it's different, as Architect of Games is more geared towards how players interact with a game than how to make good games. there's naturally a lot of overlap, but AoG makes very different content on many videos.
Oh man when I saw Grim fandango I got flashbacks to monkey Island, played that as a kid. There were some seriously crazy leaps of logic even by the moon logic used there. It was okay at times because if you got it then it was funny, at other times I spent idk 20-30 hours trying to brute force my way through because the game was so frickin (fricken?) bizarre. Can't stand puzzle games, and outside of the fact monkey Island and grim fandango had great plotlines I would have dropped them pretty quick. Problem solvers all the way.
I just discovered your channel yesterday, and you are going places man! you can easily compete with other gaming channels when it comes to content, it’s fantastic. keep making awesome stuff dude, you have earned my subscription :-)
Are you telling me I was the only one who just dropped the companion cube just like that, not trying to save it in any way? It's just a box. I assumed I would maybe use another one later on or something
Same. I mean, years later, because they integrated it into the ending of both games, and the way the internet has treated it, I now recognize the uniqueness of that particular cube. But yeah at the time I had actually already dropped the cube and had to go retrieve it for the incineration because it was that unimportant.
I also often find Zachtronics games fun, but lacking in motivation to keep me playing. I think for me thats because even if I solve the problem, I don't get much out of it. Sure I progress, and I can go back and optimize to get better numbers on some Leaderboard, but I don't care much about those. I'd like to have it be part of a bigger world though. Not sure how to put that.. Like in modded Minecraft, I can build a contraption that turns my ores into ingots in many ways, but depending on how I build it I'll need fewer space or more space. More materials or fewer. It'll be quicker or slower. So I have an actual incentive to build it well because it influences my base and game, instead of just some numbers on a leaderboard. So say, take a Space Sim, let me get the standard equipment for if I don't care about the sub-game. Then give me the option to build my own equipment, or write code for my missile tracking stuff to improve upon the default I can buy. Or something like that. I kind of like the Alchemy minigame in Atelier Sophie in that. With the same materials I can either plop them down without caring and get a Bomb with some physical damage, and no extra effects. Or I take my time to figure out a good placement for the materials to gain extra effects as well as a good damage boost.
I get so much dopamine out of solving a zachtronics puzzle. The way I play, I never try to figure out how to solve the puzzle, but instead I start off figuring out the best possible way to optomize. When everything comes together and my clockwork behemoth puts me in the top 1% for anything, it's thrilling.
I often find the limitations of optimality to be helpful in finding a solution, because I can cut out large swathes of the possible solution space when optimizing for a particular metric. For instance, explosive phials are made of 3 atoms, but you only have 2 fire atom inputs and one explosive phial output, which means the limit is on your inputs of 2 atoms every 2 ticks, therefore the theoretical minimum cycle time is 2 outputs every 6 ticks. since 3-tick machines really don't work all that well, we'll likely end up with 2 mirrored 6-tick machines.
I got opus magnum one night and played a few levels on my own, and then I went out and met with some friends to study. I kept playing the game, and one of my friends eventually noticed and we got to optimizing this one level over and over. And by the time I’d woken up the next morning, that bastard had bought the game, tripled my playtime, and beaten every one of my damn scores. Playing with friends (it even shows steam friends scores on the stats chart) really really enhances the experience for me. You can learn things together, challenge one another, and sometimes cooperate to get through those really tough solutions. I’m not sure how far I would’ve gotten into the game without that motivation. But with it, I feel like I really experienced the developer intention to its fullest
I think you've hit upon something fundamental about game design with your "puzzle / problem" distinction. It sounds like one "has a predefined, authored solution, and tasks the player with finding it", while the other "provides a goal, a situation, and mechanics for manipulating that situation, and has players go at it, maybe with a few restrictions, or encouragements for optimization". That latter one sounds like just about any game doesn't it? But most games (and individual challenges within games) exist somewhere on the spectrum between those two. Compare, say, Doom with Mirror's Edge (I know I was one of the few people who actually _liked_ Mirror's Edge gun combat, because I treated it as a puzzle of sight lines, enemy behavior, and ammo counts). One tangential thought is that puzzles seem predicated on predictability, consistency and planning, while problems are more predicated on novelty and improvisation (though of course both can edge along either axis). I'm starting to get the impression that puzzle games are very "pure" games, in the sense that lessons from designing a puzzle game can be applied to any other genre, but not vice versa.
Great distinction. I love puzzle games, but not really problem games. It's hard to find google puzzle games because so many problem games get misclassified.
my favourite level of Portal 2 was the level with the white paint. I was FINALLy able to put portleable surfaces wherever I wanted, so I covered EVERYTHING!
This was cool, I definately think I prefer puzzles over problems in my personal gaming experiances, freeform things like the zach games tend to fry me with all the options avalible, not to mention the higher chance of a compelling story or world.
@@MRProgressor I feel more satisfied knowing I'm doing it by myself lol. It feels really awesome like beating a soulsbourne boss. edit: albeit way less stressful most of the time.
I am the poly thing that you use instead of a shopping needle. You think you are a pole, I am the real one, you, stole my bride. What did you do with the sack by your wrist? Did you suck your teeth? You know the problems you know the answers, I, am, Zeus.
Puzzles are the fun of a scientist; you broaden your mind to understand new things. Problems are the fun of an engineer/designer; you apply your understanding to create something new.
Cpt.Hodor immersive sims in general kind of fit the mold in that regard. Prey, Dishonored, Deus Ex, etc. I always saw Stealth games as being puzzles, just usually a lot cooler aesthetics. ☺
I like this dichotomy. I think you could extend it out into more than just puzzle games. Uncharted 2 is really a puzzle game, while Prey is a problem game, and Dark Souls dabbles in both, despite being largely a puzzle game. What do you think?
A PUZZLE is a challenge where you have all of the required pieces of the solution at the outset. The player catharsis comes at the "A-Ha" moment wen you figure out how to put those pieces together. A problem (to use the term you have here) requires you to SEARCH for the pieces/information needed.
I've been playing Celeste recently, it's a platformer Right? Every time I play through a new challenging room I'm faced with the challenge of figuring out the specific route the devs intended me to take through the room, I can occasionally improvise, but the harder levels get the more specific things I have to do, there's obvioisly the added challenge of executing it, but just figuring it out feels like half the battle, especially with strawberries
I'd say each room in Celeste is a puzzle. The puzzles have more than one solution, but nowhere near the number of solutions or complexity of a "problem". Also, *executing* the solution is a big part of the game, not just solving the puzzle.
i thought that was what the skill game genre was for you could solve the problem any old way but as you play you get better with the tools given you and can solve problems faster. but you could call it problem games if you want.
Okay, hold up. I was in total agreement with you. In fact, the difference between Puzzle games and Problem games is something I've brought up myself in conversation before. But how can you go and dump on SpaceChem's story like that (11:03)!? The writing is a little stiff in places, sure, but I thought SpaceChem's story was excellent. The way it teased with unsettling foreshadowing was in no small part what kept me playing that game. It's not a novel, certainly, but I still wanted to see what was coming next. I'll admit I don't remember all the names of all the minor characters off hand, but there's no way I could forget Joel, or Bruce. If you're just going to ignore all that for a joke, well, you're doing yourself a disservice.
Shout out to The Incredible Machine Also, the other "Bridge Constructor" games from that developer, especially Stunts, are very widely open to alternate solutions, even encouraging you to re-solve puzzles with part limits, material limits or cash limits, but not necessarily at the same time.
Spacechem does have a reason to play, though. Get far enough in and you've got a story about fighting off the freaky nightmare alien things. One level has you setting up controls for maneuvering and firing attacks of a spacecraft and you basically have to set up all the lines independently so your toggle controls work as firing left thrusters, right thrusters, and the laser. It's really flipping hard even when you've got a system that can toggle on short notice and maintain a full power laser for as long as possible.
Mtndewphyco after scrolling through the comments, trying to up your comment so someone else might see it, the digging began; i found it in RU-vid as "the sexy brutale: casino theme".
Its simple bro puzzle games are real time puzzling you from level to level to finish a goal by recognizing creative idea its like putting you through traps till you figure your brain out of it and problem solving ones rely more on strategy and planning that needs to be done in order to solve the goal like you are in trap fallen in hole figure your way out how to climb or get away actually all of them are combinatorial mathematical puzzles which can be solved through programming .
I solved sexy brutale by picking someone to stalk on each loop and see what tidbits I can come up with a use for even if the action I'm attempting would look like a silly joke.
I think one good way to tell a puzzle game's history is by the background. Take INSIDE for example. It's all about the background and mechanics. Unfortunately, not every game can do this with their histories.
to make puzzle you need to create different possibilities and to make problems you need interconnectivity which is far more difficult to achieve espcially the graphycally more complex the games become
A problem game could have great narrative if said narrative is attached to problem-solving tools similar to how Autoneer couples its survival gameplay to its programming tools
It sounds like "problems" are essentially "puzzles" with many possible solutions. But I guess there's more to it than that... Puzzle games tend to give players direct access to the action that completes a puzzle - for example, tracing a line in The Witness, or making a portal in Portal. You have buttons that let you simply do these actions. The puzzle is figuring out *how to use* that action. Problem games don't do this. Poly Bridge doesn't have an action for "deliver the car to where it needs to go." Opus Magnum doesn't have a button for "quickly produce product X." Instead, the base actions in the game let you control parts of a system, and you can manipulate that system to indirectly accomplish your goal. Due to the complexity of their systems, problem games also afford for more possible solutions to each problem. As a result of these differences, problem games can make a player feel like they're being creative and expanding their sense of what counts as a solution. Puzzle games can feel more like you're *whittling down* the possible solutions until you find the right one. Each part of the puzzle is a constraint, defining the edges of what a possible solution could look like. Eventually that space is defined sharply enough that you realize that only *this shape* will work... and that is the answer.
A game like Celeste is a *puzzle* game, because the player has direct access to the actions that move Madeline towards the goal (dash, jump, climb), but it's not immediately clear *how* to use these to succeed. Celeste is *also* a platformer, because once you know the solution you then have to *execute* it, which is difficult and part of the fun of the game.
I'll be honest, this is a pretty good highlight of why I prefer puzzle games to problem games. I can't get into something with no apparent solution. If I'm stuck in a puzzle game, I can just keep telling myself over and over "there's GOT to be a solution. This is DESIGNED with a solution." Problem games aren't though, they just give you tools. They feel more broken as a result, and it's discouraging to play them. Or I just end up breaking the puzzle because I get frustrated and if the game isn't gonna have my back then I'm not obliged to respect it in any way. By that point though I usually hate the game I'm playing and wanna set fire to it. For me, that's pretty antithetical to enjoying a game, and it usually gets uninstalled after that point. Plus, if you get really stuck in a puzzle game, you can just google a walkthrough or ask a friend for help. Useful if you're more interested in the story than the gameplay.
"This is DESIGNED with a solution." Problem games aren't though, they just give you tools." Have to disagree on that one. Any good problem game needs to have a few solutions per problem, and yet have intriguing problems as to keep the player engaged. It's just that puzzles have a linearity of though behind them, so they end up being shorter and easier to backtrack from a wrong manner of thinking. Problem games on the other hand tend to be at their best when you know an easier solution if you weren't on it's constrains. It makes so that you need to break the problem in parts and solve each issue on it's own, figure how to work under constraints and how to arrange everything . But if you can't execute something, backtracking to the start can feel bad because everything you've done before feels like it was pointless (a problem you also would have with long puzzles, as most people have with the rubric cube)
A very good puzzle game, in my opinion, is Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective (and honestly I've only ever played it and Professor Layton games as far as I remember, which I doubt are fair to bring up in discussions about puzzle games due to how the puzzles work), however, this video made me realize something: GT:PD dabbles on the line between being a problem solver, and a puzzle game, however, at the end of the day, as much as you can experiment at the expense of the lives of the people you try to save, there is only really one way that you can save their lives. So, does this mean you are presented with a problem, or a puzzle? If I got it right from this video, a puzzle has only one solution, and you're always given the tools needed to solve it, while a problem has multiple solutions, demanding nothing specific as long as you can solve the problem. So with that in mind, GT:PD almost always has a beautiful and brilliant opennes (is that even a word), which is the problem side, but on the other hand, the game demands a specific set of actions and use of your tools to keep going, so that's where my question comes from. (Lowkey I just wanted a way to show some appreciation to Ghost Trick, so excuse me if this comment is dumb).
I found Sexy Brutal too basic. Just like recent Minit, it's a game with cool concept that never went anywhere in depth and complexity with it, it's shallow and basic, not something i hope to find in "passion project" indie-game. Like - last puzzle in Brutal is litterally "put a square shape in a square hole"-type puzzle for kindergarden.
Small nitpick but to me the tequila puzzle from the sexy brutale was actually quite clear. You see the staff member move to turn off the record in it's regular room, so you know he'll go to switch it off wherever. You then find a record player in a lockable room and the solution presents itself. But maybe it's just my way of thinking aligning with the developer's
During most of this I was thinking of how Dungeon of the Endless by Amplitude is an interesting Problem game with Roguelike elements and a neat blend of real time strategy and turn based strategy. I'd love to see you look at the game at some point because it pulls a lot of neat mechanics from genres to create a Problem game that offers a gaming experience I haven't seen many other games try. For example of how this game could fall into the Problem genre you have to think about what resources to build, what characters to level up and pick, how you want to position your characters, and what rooms you want to power. It has a nice amount of Roguelike elements like dealing with random circumstances and permadeath. The game finds a way of giving you both turn based and real time strategy by giving you as much time as you'd like between doors to make strategical decisions on how you'll solve the problems you'll encounter once you open the door. Once you do the game rewards you if you think fast and act quickly with moving characters and activating their abilities. TL;DR I think Dungeon of the Endless is a neat game. While it does nothing unique I think the way that it combines a lot of different mechanics to create a new experience is inspiring and I'm surprised nobody has really looked at the game in too much detail.
One of the best outliers in terms of good characters in a problem-solving game is "else Heart.Break()". It has pretty strong characters, but starting at a certain point you are likely to accidentally sequence break if you experiment too much.
Sometimes I feel like the only one who didn't like Portal. Or the Witness for that matter (or even Braid). With Portal, the actual puzzles were fine, but I didn't find glados interesting, or funny/witty at all, it was just an irritating voice with stupid dialogue. I started The Witness thinking "ooh pretty, can't wait to explore and find out the secrets of this island!" aaaand an hour later I was bored out of my mind. The place wasn't very interesting and the puzzles weren't very interesting and certainly didn't make me feel smart when I solved them. I dunno. On the other hand, I loved the zachtronics games :P
Swapper was the first and only puzzle game that I finished and I was actually sad when it was over because of how invested I was in exploring the setting.
I'm surprised you didn't mention besieged. It's a wonderful indie game that flirts with these concepts in an interesting and unique way. Maybe it's not goal focused enough for this? Though I feel like the gauntlet is as goal focused as you can get.
I know I'm pretty late, but Tequila's death in The Sexy Brutale wasn't caused by the piano. The song that the killer chose for her was one that had her hit some high notes which caused the window to shatter. As for how that doesn't hurt Boone when he uses the power on other windows...game logic, I guess?
It's a Puzzle-Action game. You need to figure out the configuration of tetrominoes that will result in a structure with no (or at least minimal) gaps, but unlike the typical puzzler you're on a time limit. Take too long and the block places itself automatically and you'll have to figure out how to fit the rest of the pieces around it. It's a jigsaw puzzle with a timer for each piece you hold, essentially.
World of goo is a must play, some of the problems will seem impossible but somehow you will make it work, it is a really satisfying game to play. Factorio is the most addictive game I have ever played because there is always something to optimize.
They get the window to shatter by switching the music to a song that will make tequila sing at the perfect pitch long enough to shatter the glass, something that can actually happen
It was a very good video, but I would like to argue a bit about the definitions of puzzle and problem-solving games. Can't you basically say that every game is a problem-solving game regardless of the linear nature of it? I mean in a first person shooter, you present the player a problem: there is enemy standing in your way and wants to stop you, the solution: shoot the enemy. Even though it is extremely simple, it still is active problem solving. Problem: there is an obstacle in Mario's path, solution: jump over it. In that sense I would say that what you call problem-solving games, actually make more sense if they were called puzzle games, just by looking at what an old fashioned puzzle is. A jigsaw puzzle exist out of parts that fit specifically into each other to create an image. The problem: all the parts are randomized, the solution: put the parts together so that the image is formed. Basically a puzzle gives you the tools and it is up to you how you finish it. Now, this is exactly the same problem-solving definition, but I think you can make the distinction that it is particular non-linear despite it having a single solution. What you call a puzzle game, distinguishes itself by being primarily narrative driven. In that sense you could make a distinction between non-linear problem-solving games like Factorio, and narrative driven problem-solving games (either linear or semi-linear in nature) like Grim Fandango. The latter would still encompass all other type of games, but a distinction can be made due to theme. Writing this out I honestly think the word 'puzzle' distinguishes the game quite well thematically from other games, since all games are problem-solving by nature. The difference in the puzzle game genre can be made as non-linear puzzle games and narrative driven puzzle games. Narrative in this case meaning a constructed linear experience for the player, existing of smaller goals encompassed by a larger goal.
There are puzzle sections in Mario games - places where you have to do just the right things in order to get through - or some of the bosses are puzzle bosses where you have to figure out how to damage them. In any case, it sounds like you're disagreeing with the suggested words used for the distinction rather than the distinction itself. Personally, I'm happy with puzzle and problem for the two sides of this dichotomy - though I'd add a further distinction between puzzles and riddles - both have a definite answer, but a puzzle offers ways to make progress and work out an answer, while a riddle allows you to recognise the answer but gives you little, if any, indication of how to find it in the first place.
DrGryff - you figure out your genre and then you figure out what you want your solution to be and give the players the tools to indirectly get there. And I say indirectly meaning a set of tools that do not directly lead to the goal but can be assembled together in such a way that they do. Really a problem game is just a puzzle game with more than one choice on how to solve it.
