Regarding water hammer I think the fundamental issue is while the game simulates some aspects of fluid dynamics right like flowrate, equilibrium of fluid levels, gravity and so on, there are aspects that are simply not rendered, in this particular case pressure. As far as I know there is no simulated pressure in the game (do not take headlift and pressure for the same thing they are not) and that is what causes this particulare problem. In real life water hammer is occuring in every system, for example when you close a tap in your home. Nowadays there a systems in taps to reduce it as not to damage the installation but it occurs nontheless. Now to emulate a manifold in the game lets say you are in an old house, you have to taps open next to one another and you sundendly close one (in the game imagine the two taps are two fuel generator and one suddenly becomes full meaning no more fuel can enter it). So this will create "hammer watter" wich is a shochwave created by the sundden stop in fluid movement, that shockwave will travel the entire pipe system in the oposite directon of the flow (depending on certain factors in can even create a cavitation bubble that can go as far as rupturing a pipe), but in real life because there is pressure in your water pipes at home (providing that pressure is sufficient) the water will continue to flow despite this effect and the other tap will continue to flow water. If there is a cavitation buble the other tap might act as a release valve for it and have flow momenteraly interupted when it passes (splashing everything around as a bonus) but this will be compensated by a slight increase in pressure just before it passes so the total flow on time will remain unchanged. Now in the game the same thing happens but because there is no pressure to maintain flow when there is a hammer effect the flow reverses and instead of a maintained or really briefly interupted flow you find your pipe empty and you'll have to wait for the entire system to reach equilibrium again for it to fill back up. There is IMO two way of adressing this, either simulate accuratly and entirely fluid dynamics without leaving part out that therefore cause unituitive problems, that would need also a certain number of buildables to enable the player to regulate pipe systems such as flow modulation valves, release valve and so on or go back a notch on fluid dynamics and make it so all pipes have either zero or laminar flow regardless of geometry. It is my opinion that the second option would be best, other factory games do this and do not seem lesser for it, fluids IMO already have unique challenges to them with headlift and don't need any more :)
IMHO: if it’s going to be a feature, not a bug, it’s needs to be available in the games documentation, in the wiki, in the cheat sheets etc. and it needs to be understandable to the player. Not all water physics in the game are physically correct as it is (still more correct than Oxygen Not Included maybe), there are “exploits” around head lift etc.; we don’t have any visibility to the issue really, no deep OR shallow understanding of WHY it’s happening and when gamers don’t know why something is happening, Frustration++. I think fun and satisfaction should Trump “it’s technically correct but only 3% of you will understand why”
This "bug" has been around for years, and I get the sense that even Coffee Stain didn't know the WHY until recently. Now that they do, they are having the discussion of if they want it or not. If they do decide to leave it in, I'm sure they'll add it to the documentation, or explain it's effects in a video.
I know, but even having in mind how fluids should work, using valves to prevent the backflow and producing more fluids than i actually need, MK2 pipes still doesn't ever fill completely
Even if they document it, the fact stays that this is a thing players can only observe, not troubleshoot as we have no insight on what's happening inside the pipes at that moment. So we might know WHY it's happening, but not where exactly or how to prevent it other than maybe building a very specific way, which would imo take too much creativity from the game. "Just build it the only way proven to work" is not a good take for this game.
I suppose the underlying issue is that it is difficult to understand exactly how fluids are behaving in pipes, especially since buildings take fluids in "gulps" so you think of fluid flow rates in terms of cubic meters per minute of consumption, it's actually a very intermittent flow. If there are fluid slosh mechanics or water hammer or things like that, it's hard for a player to experience them in game.
This. If players cannot debug and understand a problem on their own, get rid if it. Even if it was intended. Facing players with a problem, they can't analyze, is just shitty.
In my opinion if it says 600m3/min it schould deliver 600m3/min. If it can’t do that, the dev team schould tell us the number the pipes can actually deliver, so we can count with that number.
It CAN deliver 600. It depends on your setup. The problem is that water hammering is not a well documented feature so a lot of people don't understand how to mitigate it or aren't aware it is a thing.
@@kami8604 Why does it being a game make any difference? Do you also expect water to flow uphill at max flow because "it's a game?" If it works in a realistic and predictable way to those who understand it, it makes no sense to remove it in favor of fictional physics. Especially if it ends up taking time and resources to develop a fix that's just gonna overhaul how all pipes work fundamentally. You'd just create more confusion by trying to "fix" it. It would be easier and make more sense just to embrace the mechanic as it is and document it so people can look it up and understand it better. Maybe even record some lines for ADA that explain it as well.
Water hammer is the result of a sudden pressure difference or some other external force that causes a shockwave to travel through the liquid in the pipe hammering (impacting and potentially damaging) any appliance connected. Baffles would reduce hammer, but would probably increase the loss of what you're describing further - I believe you're describing friction loss, or the loss of pressure and volume due to friction between the inner wall of the pipe, including joints, appliances, elevation, and probably baffles; and whatever is flowing through the system.
Not necessarily, if there is the slightest hold up down the line you would get such water hammer effect, thats why real world systems have these baffles to reduce the pressure build up preventing the effect to spread.
I would like to point out setting fluid containers prior to it supplying anything does two things... creates head pressure and keeps the pipes past it full. My guess is people are pushing things like oil straight to a refiner without and storage before them.
The other useful thing you can do is pump your fluids up to something resembling a water tower, with a buffer at the top, and then allowing it to flow back down again. This is useful because, as long as the buffer is at a higher altitude than the rest of the pipe system, and the buffer itself has adequate head lift, then the entire pipe system will also have adequate head lift. That may seem obvious, but a lot of people are confused about how head lift works, and this is a really straightforward way to remove it as a factor that you have to think about.
@NYKevin100 ya I've done this also. The fuild tanks do this in a similar way being level but yes if you do a water tower like system it does get the same or better results.
Agreed if it is a big fix it but if it's game mechanics then have a tutorial video on how the proper set up should be as not everyone is a water expert and understands how to set it up properly. Cause it might just be too technical for some folks to figure out and games should be fun not a chore as it were.
I think the biggest problem with fluids at the moment is the interface. Its difficult to find issues or for new players to grasp the mechanics because we dont have propper visual representation of whats going on in a system
Hammering is fine just maybe an indication of where it’s occurring passed hey this pipe isn’t getting flow. Valves and pumps fix the issue but they need to be put in specific areas to fix it and are kinda confusing to get into
I'm pleased that the story of this game is not going to be intrusive. This is a work it out kind of game and the "Satisfactory" aspect of the game is getting things to work. Fluids are a pain but it's doable. There's always RU-vid. 🙂
I used to run into the pipe problems, but after I learnt a bit more about valves, flow and pumping I've managed to go without any limitations since. I reckon you should get a warning that rapid changes in pressure can limit flow rates slightly, especially ones to do with the ends of manifolds, but apart from that it's fine.
look, I am sorry, but as I mine my infinite resource well with the attached automated mining machine I created with my beam gun on an alien planet, I really don't need REALISTIC pipe mechanics, if the flow is meant to be 600, allow 6 fricken hundred.
It's not that easy, fluids are meant to be tricky to use as part of the game, and fluids dynamics works in manu different situation. If they remove this thing that is a problem for you, they would end up oversimplifying things for everyone who likes them as they are
i think ppl use pipes like belts and that causes "hammering" there are a couple of useful guides on youtube for building manifold pipes, i only ran into the pipe hole bug myself, the pumps were working as intended. When building a manifold pipeline make sure the cross section is not horizontally to avoid "Hammering" think more like what would fluid do. CSS is doing amazing work! The game they are going to release is less broken than most (90%) of the games that came out over the past 10-15 years!
The thing is I don't compare it to 90% of games, I compare it to the few games that I've decided to buy, including Factorio. Satisfactory has a massive advantage in immersion, but in terms of features, stability and bugs it's a very stark contrast.
Water hammering, also known as hydraulic shock, is a phenomenon in fluid dynamics where a sudden change in the flow of a fluid, such as water, in a pipe system causes a pressure surge. This pressure surge can occur when the flow of water is abruptly stopped or changed direction, leading to the formation of shock waves within the pipe. For example, if water is flowing through a pipe and suddenly the valve is closed, the kinetic energy of the moving water is rapidly converted into pressure energy, creating a sharp increase in pressure within the pipe. This increase in pressure can cause the pipe to vibrate or even burst, and it can also result in the water splashing back or hammering against the walls of the pipe. Water hammering can be mitigated by using devices such as surge tanks, pressure relief valves, or by designing the pipe system to minimize sudden changes in flow velocity. It's an important consideration in plumbing and hydraulic engineering to prevent damage to pipes and equipment. (Disclaimer: Its not my statement, its answered by CGPT) Is this what you mean snutt? Anyways, we have so called pumps. Pumps should create pressure, right? or am i wrong here... Maybe keep it as is and add pressure physics to the pumps, that would make sense and it would also mirror IRL somewhat im guessing.
I noticed that a 600m³ oil extractor with one pump then manifolding into 10 refinaries was having issues. But I replaced the small section of pipe from the junctions just behind the refinaries to the refinaries with mk1 and leaving the rest as mk2 ended up solving the issue for me.
Basically the hammering occurs when not enough pressure in the pipe, pumps are the key to solve this issue maintaining pressure throughout, placing the pumps in key areas not necessarily using them for head lift (for me ) solves the issues
Where I noticed it most is when I set up nuclear power. I split each pipe in 2 at the end to split the 600 in two, but no matter what I did, I could never keep both generators filled up. I had more than enough power still, so the fluctuation didn't affect me, but it still bummed me out, I spent a lot of time on that build.
If it's intended functionality that is based on real fluid dynamics, then it should remain in the game. Changing it would create more confusion around the issue with additional the cost of time spent re-engineering it, which doesn't make much sense to bother doing. It seems like the most efficient solution would be to document the feature and maybe record some ADA voice lines to explain it.
i never run into this issue, the pipe always run on 600m3 no matter what, the manifold result always right on me it either the fluid dynamic is confusing to ppls (require them to learnt on pipe inspecting class or something) or its game engine issues that run the fluid badly on lower-end pc system
Same here, only just started a few weeks ago, always built pipe networks with fluid dynamics in mind since it became apparent quite early that the game had very competent fluid physics. Used elevated pipes to always keep a small amount of fluid trapped at the machine input, unable to flow back, used pumps to equalize the flow speed and prevent sloshing, used elevated reservoirs as buffers to keep pressure on the network below. Never had any issues, every pipe throughputs exactly what it should with an extremely steady flow, little to no fluctuations. Pipes are sitting fine at 600 no matter how many wall and floor holes they go through. People are treating them like conveyors, even seen videos of someone load balancing pipes.
From my own experimentation, and I would love to be corrected here, most people just don't have a fundamental understanding of fluid dynamics, a lot of people I have helped fix their factories, usually it comes down to how they curve the pipes into junctions and such, which drastically affects the ability of the fluids to get to their destination. literally as much as a 15 degree curve back into a straight pipe, or forward into a pipe thats not supplied correctly can be the gamechanging difference. Oftentimes these things don't show until a few minutes or more after the system has been running. This is usually the pain point most people have, multiplied by trying to upscale their factories to fit/use all the oil, add in overclocking, and it becomes a disaster if something this simple doesn't get fixed early on. I agree with some peoples points that this mechanic might not quite belong in satisfactory as its deceivingly difficult at a point in the game where people are already getting burnt out from steel and making enough coal factories to survive into the fuel phase of the game. My advice for most people is keep it small, slowly scale up and watch the pipes for issues. However it is nice for those of us who do enjoy the extra difficulty so I don't completely want it removed. Hopefully CS can come up with a solution that fits all types of styles, as they have continually done in the past.
@@thegardenofeatin5965 from what I have been told, no, but what I have experienced is different. Ive tried finding some more detailed wiki or forums for this but everyone basically just says it doesnt work that way. However when i follow my designs as above I don't have any issues. So take it as you will
Pipes fluid dynamics should either be simplified or much better explained. Either ones fine with me, but currently going from conveyors belts that carry x items per minute from point a to point b to pipe's inscrutable closed system is very confusing first time and ultimately leads me to stick with basically the one layout I know works instead of experimenting b/c the frustration just isnt worth the headache
Fluid hammer is mostly a valve problem though. That should limit your speed of closing valves to not burst your pipes since closing them too rapidly the fluid bumping into it flows back causing major pressure spikes. Valves do not exist in the game though so this should be no problem. I suppose the same kind of problem could exist with rapid acceleration around pumps. But for this you can make your pipes from some sick alien unbreakable material and then overpressurizing the pipe will just vastly increase the speed of the fluid since the volume won't budge.
One thing bothers me still. If it's explanation of the Mk. 2 pipe bug, then why it is called Mk. 2 pipe bug at all? Does this "feature", this hammering, not affect Mk. 1 pipes? There is something fishy here, if people noticed it only on 600m3 pipes, but not on the 300m3.
Herse an idea i haven't seen anyone mention - and i have no idea how technical this would be to implement... but like just add an alternate mk2 pipe that is more expensive to build and has an irritating throughput. call it the pressurized pipe. it unlocks with mk2 and has a throughput of like 500. but it eliminates pressure and essentially makes the pipe act as a belt so the casuals can have their perfectly consistent don't need to worry throughput. people only get mad with your pipes cuz they dont understand how the fluid dynamics work. so don't force them to learn, give them an easy way out, but punish them for taking it. Im a fellow small time solo dev myself and i like to always turn against the player what they complain about. if mk2 pipes working how they work isnt a bug, great dont fix it. the players that care will figure it out or take the time to learn. but if people want an easy mode, give them one, especially when they are put at a disadvantage for taking it. the people who understand fluid dynamics will never use that pipe. so no harm no foul and all the casual players get what they want. That all being said, better explaining your fluid dynamics in the game would really help. Ill be real, the first time i ever left the game to acquire information as to how the game works, was for fluids. This is think is a problem, but im sure one you are well aware of. Just because a wiki exists, doesn't mean the player should ever be expected to use it
In factorio, many people also don't realise properly that long pipes reduce flowrates. With each pipe segment added, the flowrate drops lower and lower until they are not really usable. But nobody yells at that game to change this because they don't understand it. CSS could change it and make it less complex but other "features" will go with that too, or at least will change as well. It's not their fault people don't understand real life physics like real pipes.
@@powerpc6037 yeah i agree, i wish more people just would learn the proper mechanics, but at the end of the day, its a video game. And if a video game is asking the player to understand fluid dynamics, by nature that makes the game less accessible to more people. CSS has to make this decision like any other developer, whats more important to this game specifically. Cannon physics, or a pipe system that is maybe not as realistic because it would be more accessible. Also i dont think the factorio comparison is super useful. Satisfactory is my legit favorite game of all time, but i knew of and never played factorio prior to satisfactory because i just didnt find it fun. The whole top down early fallout game design just puts me off it. The game becomes too much about the automation. Satisfactory is a beautiful blend of that, first person exploration games like no mans sky, and sandbox build games. I personally believe sure there is some overlap between the 2 communities, but i would argue the people like me that play satisfactory over games like factorio is because it provides a truly different experience. Not because its just another automation game
If you don't use buffers or gravity feed then I suspect turning off the machines until the pipe is filled would help. And then turn them on in sequence from the furthest machine from the feed. Nut really, using buffers should be second nature. Pipes are not conveyor belts. That's why the plumbers get the big bucks.
@Satisfactory Clips Archive I'm not sure how to do this but if you would introduce pressure in to the fluid system it might fix a lot of the false bugs with fluids. Again I do not know how you would accomplish that but forcing the fluid from lets say a oil extractor to the refinery in one direction instead of having it slauching around in the pipe, I'm sure that would solve a lot of problems.
Is this when you place a splitter at the end of a pipe but only use the side splits and not the directly opposite split? That could I imagine cause issues if dynamics include it bouncing off the wall of it.
I do not have this problem. I usually run a water extractor on both ends of my pipe and then split off from that one pipe but I am very picky with my setups I have as little pipe runs as possible
I seam to have pipe problems when i am over building. I think it is more lag then the pipes. the more entities the more problems. The pumping graphics affect frames. maybe optimizing them.
I dont think that kind of realism should be in satisfactory. Having water hammer in pipes would be like like having raw, granular resources like iron ore shake off of the belts. Sure, its realistic, but its annoying and not wanted
The system is designed such that Mk2 pipes deliver 600 m3/min and they don't, so it's a bug. You've found that it's a bug related to the physics model rather than a misplaced semi-colon, but it's still a case of the game not working as intended.
That's not a fair assessment. The flow rate of a pipe is not a guarantee, it's an upper limit. Meaning that, provided ideal conditions, the pipe will handle _up to_ 600 m^3/min. If you don't expect a vertical pipe to be max flow, then it makes little sense to draw an arbitrary line here. If this is how fluids work, then it should remain this way.
Pipes have almost made me want to give up on the game. I''ve never passed the fuel stage because pipes are so frustrating. I worked over 400 hours on my first fuel plant and still have not been able to get it to work right no matter how I set up the pipes. I should be getting 1600 fuel but not even getting half that as they for some dumb reason isn't getting all of the heavy oil I'm making, so they starve and idle, and yet all my refineries making the heavy are backed up as it's not being consumed?! Resin's being sunk so its not that... it makes no sense and adding tanks or pumps haven't fixed it nor had re-doing the pipes. The way they are may be more 'realistic' but if its frustrating to work with and Id rather it be fun and let us place and use pipes how we want and not need some crazy specific method. The only way so far I've been able to make it work is copying what someone else did, and that's NOT how I want to play the game.
i mean, if ur getting not even half of what u should be producing, u have a major issue in there somewhere, and this "mk2 pipe bug" isnt at all whats causing it to happen. hard to tell with little to no info on ur setup, but u just need to start checking what is being supplied at the correct rate and not. unless u have a hunch, start at the start of the chain and check outputs and inputs. my guess is that ur lacking proper headway for ur pipes. i would also suggest to fill ur pipes full before starting machines, helped me when i had issues first time with pipes.
Maybe you should present your problem in a forum or sth. Sounds like maybe you did a tiny mistake somewhere in your setup, since it works for anybody else. THe mk2 pipe issue discussed here refers to only beeing able of 99% of the fluids instead of 100%. Your problem sounds like something else
@@Cryoptic_ 1. I did what I do with every other factory I built. Check what is needed, and use math to divide it along. I'm making well over 6000 quickwire for everything from computers to ai limiters to high speed connectors using pure caterium and a LOT of refineries, and have had no issues with supplying the water to them. I even have future setup for when I unlock 780 belts using smart splitters and overflow. So it's not that I miscalculated. 2. I do pre fill all my machines before I start really going. But once it WAS really going it started lagging behind. Even with pumps all my refineries turning oil into heavy backed up, and all the ones turning heavy into fuel starved. 3. I had pumps going into the factory and just before going into the line of pipe junctions. Yet here I am turning 1800 oil into 4 lines of 600 heavy oil yet most of it just backloged in the pipes. Something that boggled me, and everyone I sent the save to as the ONLY place that pipes ever traveled UP was from the oil extractor to the heavy refineries, yet THAT worked flawlessly. The REST however did not.
@@TAiiNE i mean, again, i cant know exactly whats wrong here. u say u did everything correct, but odds are u didnt. still possible ofc, not saying i dont trust u or anything but there are times where im 100% certain i did things correctly, and it turns out that i in fact did not. sometimes its smth rly rly obscure, and i dont even blame myself for the mistake, it could be so minor that its realistically not something u couldve avoided. that being said, im thinking its more likely that something isnt done right in ur world. there is a possibility that ur pipes just arent working as intended, but this sounds extremely rare. not heard of anyone else have this many big issues with pipes when they are doing them correctly (in terms of filling the pipes and overhead for instance). file a bug report then, but that does require u to fnd out whats not working. if it is ur supply of fuel thats problematic, then find out where in that chain it breaks. obv everything isnt. but in finding whats bugged here u may find a flaw in ur system, who knows. id suggest to not blindly think u have done everything correct tho. normally this isnt problematic, but considering ur supposidly getting less than 50% of what u should, id start assuming that everything is broke until proven otherwise. its rough i know, but if i were in ur shoes it actually go into every single machine and check all the numbers and see if they line up. id probably replace a lot of pipes (cus thats seemingly the issue) anb practically taking it down and rebuilding it piece by piece.
TL;DR: People thought there is a bug for the pipes, because the fluid dynamics implemented for the pipes are too realistic. The reality is often more counter-intuitive than we think lol
I 100% think it should be removed, you shouldnt need to know fluid dynamics beyond the basics to build with pipes, nor is it ever explained which parts of fluid dynamics are in the game. Either removed, or making a difficulty setting where liquids act like gasses instead.
pipes only flow 600/s if they are full. if they aren't full there will be less flow (the less full, the less flow). So if you try to take 600 liquid /s out of a pipe but it is not full it will never get full and never get to 600/s
